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    judokat

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    Join date : 2014-02-22

    Help looking for this video?

    Post by judokat on Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:18 pm

    The video: one girl and one guy demonstrate crazy throws and counter throws. Really non-textbook, at least by my standards. I do know searching for judo videos led to this video. (it's not the "how many of these throws can you do" video)

    One of the throw is like this: girl gets ippon seoi nage attempt (or not, I don't remember). She gets into a side-to-side stance with the guy, her right to his left. Now having right hand grip over his shoulder (maybe left hand on his left arm, too), she jumps up while tucking her legs to her chest, rotating the jump so she ends up wedging both shins onto the guy's body under his left armpit. Of course she doesn't plan to stay there: she uses this rotational momentum and her own body weight to throw the guy and flip him completely.

    Thanks!

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Help looking for this video?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:25 pm

    judokat wrote:The video: one girl and one guy demonstrate crazy throws and counter throws. Really non-textbook, at least by my standards. I do know searching for judo videos led to this video. (it's not the "how many of these throws can you do" video)

    One of the throw is like this: girl gets ippon seoi nage attempt (or not, I don't remember). She gets into a side-to-side stance with the guy, her right to his left. Now having right hand grip over his shoulder (maybe left hand on his left arm, too), she jumps up while tucking her legs to her chest, rotating the jump so she ends up wedging both shins onto the guy's body under his left armpit. Of course she doesn't plan to stay there: she uses this rotational momentum and her own body weight to throw the guy and flip him completely.

    Thanks!

    It is not the Dutch "Hikomi no kata" video that you are referring to ? By the way, the word should be "Hikkomi" not "Hikomi" if that is the one you are thinking of:





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    judokat

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    Join date : 2014-02-22

    Re: Help looking for this video?

    Post by judokat on Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:56 pm

    THANK YOU! and looks like my memory serves me right because the actual move in the video is exactly as I described
    Anyway, do you know more videos like this? These continuation/counters are really cool.

    medo

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    Re: Help looking for this video?

    Post by medo on Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:47 pm

    Reminds me of this extreme karate kick.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwbRDoY1ZZ8


    medo

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    Re: Help looking for this video?

    Post by medo on Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:15 pm

    judokat wrote:The video: one girl and one guy demonstrate crazy throws and counter throws. Really non-textbook, at least by my standards. I do know searching for judo videos led to this video. (it's not the "how many of these throws can you do" video)

    One of the throw is like this: girl gets ippon seoi nage attempt (or not, I don't remember). She gets into a side-to-side stance with the guy, her right to his left. Now having right hand grip over his shoulder (maybe left hand on his left arm, too), she jumps up while tucking her legs to her chest, rotating the jump so she ends up wedging both shins onto the guy's body under his left armpit. Of course she doesn't plan to stay there: she uses this rotational momentum and her own body weight to throw the guy and flip him completely.

    Thanks!

    CK any japanese name for such a throw or does it come under the modern chaotic approach?

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Help looking for this video?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:23 pm

    medo wrote:
    judokat wrote:The video: one girl and one guy demonstrate crazy throws and counter throws. Really non-textbook, at least by my standards. I do know searching for judo videos led to this video. (it's not the "how many of these throws can you do" video)

    One of the throw is like this: girl gets ippon seoi nage attempt (or not, I don't remember). She gets into a side-to-side stance with the guy, her right to his left. Now having right hand grip over his shoulder (maybe left hand on his left arm, too), she jumps up while tucking her legs to her chest, rotating the jump so she ends up wedging both shins onto the guy's body under his left armpit. Of course she doesn't plan to stay there: she uses this rotational momentum and her own body weight to throw the guy and flip him completely.

    Thanks!

    CK any japanese name for such a throw or does it come under the modern chaotic approach?

    There's a reason the authors called the thing "Hikkomi-no-kata" ...

    In a sense ... if there is separation (and thus scorable) it generally is Hikkomi-gaeshi; if not, it all (generally) falls under "skillful entry into newaza". That is at least the correct traditional jûdô logic although under today's referee habits someone could get ippon just for swallowing ... if that ends up in someone touching the tatami with anything else but his feet ...

    "Chaotic techniques" are more the kind of techniques that evolve from someone trying something traditional that initially does not work, and mobilizing all kinds of extra levers and pushes and dynamics and combined actions until he gets the other one on the ground in such a way that what has been applied substantially differs from a traditional technique or throwing principle. Several of the things which in Britain they started referring to by the awkward nominative "Kokusai waza" are such "chaotic techniques".


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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    medo

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    Re: Help looking for this video?

    Post by medo on Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:42 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    medo wrote:
    judokat wrote:The video: one girl and one guy demonstrate crazy throws and counter throws. Really non-textbook, at least by my standards. I do know searching for judo videos led to this video. (it's not the "how many of these throws can you do" video)

    One of the throw is like this: girl gets ippon seoi nage attempt (or not, I don't remember). She gets into a side-to-side stance with the guy, her right to his left. Now having right hand grip over his shoulder (maybe left hand on his left arm, too), she jumps up while tucking her legs to her chest, rotating the jump so she ends up wedging both shins onto the guy's body under his left armpit. Of course she doesn't plan to stay there: she uses this rotational momentum and her own body weight to throw the guy and flip him completely.

    Thanks!

    CK any japanese name for such a throw or does it come under the modern chaotic approach?

    There's a reason the authors called the thing "Hikkomi-no-kata" ...

    In a sense ... if there is separation (and thus scorable) it generally is Hikkomi-gaeshi; if not, it all (generally) falls under "skillful entry into newaza". That is at least the correct traditional jûdô logic although under today's referee habits someone could get ippon just for swallowing ... if that ends up in someone touching the tatami with anything else but his feet ...

    "Chaotic techniques"  are more the kind of techniques that evolve from someone trying something traditional that initially does not work, and mobilizing all kinds of extra levers and pushes and dynamics and combined actions until he gets the other one on the ground in such a way that what has been applied substantially differs from a traditional technique or throwing principle. Several of the things which in Britain they started referring to by the awkward nominative "Kokusai waza" are such "chaotic techniques".

    Thanks for the correction I personally was looking at that two knee in the side as a yokosutemi not as as a take down into newaza.
    I remember working on a sumigaishi type technique were I grasped the back of the neck jumped with my leg bent across uke stomach dragged him down and flipped to the side and held that I rarely scored, but won with osoikomi.

    Davaro

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    Re: Help looking for this video?

    Post by Davaro on Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:49 pm

    Very nice, but unfortunately a lot of the techniques would result in HSM in todays shiai. Pity really as one or two of them are really nice and look like they could be quite effective.


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    BillC

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    Re: Help looking for this video?

    Post by BillC on Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:49 am

    medo wrote:... but won with osoikomi.

    遅い込み? Wow, that one should be a natural for me ... oh dang! Look at the time. i gotta go.


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    medo

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    Re: Help looking for this video?

    Post by medo on Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:39 am

    BillC wrote:
    medo wrote:... but won with osoikomi.

    遅い込み?  Wow, that one should be a natural for me ... oh dang!  Look at the time.  i gotta go.

    Have been diagnosed with dyslexia, have to write, check and check again as I go along, even then I get it wrong  Sad sorry about that.

    why has someone redmarked CK??

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Help looking for this video?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:50 am

    medo wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    medo wrote:
    judokat wrote:The video: one girl and one guy demonstrate crazy throws and counter throws. Really non-textbook, at least by my standards. I do know searching for judo videos led to this video. (it's not the "how many of these throws can you do" video)

    One of the throw is like this: girl gets ippon seoi nage attempt (or not, I don't remember). She gets into a side-to-side stance with the guy, her right to his left. Now having right hand grip over his shoulder (maybe left hand on his left arm, too), she jumps up while tucking her legs to her chest, rotating the jump so she ends up wedging both shins onto the guy's body under his left armpit. Of course she doesn't plan to stay there: she uses this rotational momentum and her own body weight to throw the guy and flip him completely.

    Thanks!

    CK any japanese name for such a throw or does it come under the modern chaotic approach?

    There's a reason the authors called the thing "Hikkomi-no-kata" ...

    In a sense ... if there is separation (and thus scorable) it generally is Hikkomi-gaeshi; if not, it all (generally) falls under "skillful entry into newaza". That is at least the correct traditional jûdô logic although under today's referee habits someone could get ippon just for swallowing ... if that ends up in someone touching the tatami with anything else but his feet ...

    "Chaotic techniques"  are more the kind of techniques that evolve from someone trying something traditional that initially does not work, and mobilizing all kinds of extra levers and pushes and dynamics and combined actions until he gets the other one on the ground in such a way that what has been applied substantially differs from a traditional technique or throwing principle. Several of the things which in Britain they started referring to by the awkward nominative "Kokusai waza" are such "chaotic techniques".

    Thanks for the correction I personally was looking at that two knee in the side as a yokosutemi not as as a take down into newaza.
    I remember working on a sumigaishi type technique were I grasped the back of the neck jumped with my leg bent across uke stomach dragged him down and flipped to the side and held that I rarely scored, but won with osoikomi.

    Sure.

    In terms of terminology, there are only three options:

    1. the principle classifies as a henka of a known jûdô principle and technique and takes over its name.
    2. the principle is a hitherto unknown throwing principle that cannot be considered as the application of an existing jûdô technique/principle and needs to be given a new name.
    3. the principle cannot be categorized as an actual throw, but needs to be considered as a "skillful entry into newaza"

    Ultimately it is the prerogative of the Kôdôkan to decide between #1 and #2, although in the mean time there will be idiots around looking to give some crazy Western (or worse "Japanese-sounding") eponym name to it like --I don't know-- maybe "the Dutch flying fish" or something ... In my opinion, the problem is not any different from what I have already pointed out, that is, it is (also) simply hikkomi-gaeshi on the condition that there is separation between the two opponents and sufficient impact on the tatami, and "skillful entry into newaza" if not. There are other examples where a technique that normally is considered ma-sutemi-waza may be performed as yoko-sutemi-waza or the other way around; such an example is yoko-wakare.

    As you point out, similar techniques might rarely score, and the reason is/should be the one I pointed out.

    Without splitting hairs, please note that hold-control techniques in newaza are called osaekomi-waza, not osoikomi, which means something like "entering slowly"; I leave it up to others if that meaning should be considered transitive or intransitive ...


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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

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