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    Parent "extremely uncomfortable" having her children "bow to that picture on the wall"

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    petrip

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    Re: Parent "extremely uncomfortable" having her children "bow to that picture on the wall"

    Post by petrip on Sat Nov 01, 2014 10:42 pm

    Well, this seem to be some sort American thing. within my 40 years of judo I never seen bowing to Kano's picture, so at least Finnish judo comes along just fine without it. And since most training areas are rented by the hour I would say majority of them don't even have picture of Kano anywhere.

    This total non-issue if some one wants to bow to Kano picture, fine. Someone does not want to, fine. As long as no one refuses to bow to training partner I really don' see anything in this bowing issue.



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    Ryvai

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    Re: Parent "extremely uncomfortable" having her children "bow to that picture on the wall"

    Post by Ryvai on Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:41 am

    Richard Riehle wrote:Judo is not about bowing.

    Howdy Richard. In our dojo we also have some Muslims. One of them has a father who is a 'Imam' and leads a place of Islamic worship, so the rules are super strict about bowing. His son was even in his 20's and was still not allowed to bow to anyone other than Allah. We solved the issue by compromise. The rules dictate that they are allowed to bow to other people or even the wall for that matter, just not very low, like they do when praying from their knees. So in line-up and the beginning and end of class he would sit in seiza, with the hands placed on his thighs, and lower his upper body and head to show his respect to the sensei. He would also be allowed to bow to the picture of kano and other students, just not deeply, like we do from the knees. For us this is okay, as his religion dictates this by rule, however it does not stop him from showing his fellow students, sensei and kano the mutual respect they deserve, which reigi is all about. What do you think about this compromise? Smile

    Richard Riehle

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    Re: Parent "extremely uncomfortable" having her children "bow to that picture on the wall"

    Post by Richard Riehle on Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:44 am

    Ryvai wrote:
    Richard Riehle wrote:Judo is not about bowing.

    Howdy Richard. In our dojo we also have some Muslims. One of them has a father who is a 'Imam' and leads a place of Islamic worship, so the rules are super strict about bowing. His son was even in his 20's and was still not allowed to bow to anyone other than Allah. We solved the issue by compromise. The rules dictate that they are allowed to bow to other people or even the wall for that matter, just not very low, like they do when praying from their knees. So in line-up and the beginning and end of class he would sit in seiza, with the hands placed on his thighs, and lower his upper body and head to show his respect to the sensei. He would also be allowed to bow to the picture of kano and other students, just not deeply, like we do from the knees. For us this is okay, as his religion dictates this by rule, however it does not stop him from showing his fellow students, sensei and kano the mutual respect they deserve, which reigi is all about. What do you think about this compromise? Smile

    Religion is a very personal thing. We cannot rule-out the personal nature of it. For those who do not want to bow to a picture of Jigoro Kano for religious reasons, we do not require it. In fact, because our dojo is on military base, we are required by law to abide by the religious preferences of our members. Although most of us do not see bowing to Kano-shihan as a religious issue, some of our members do. For my part, I would rather have them active in Judo instead of not active in Judo.

    Bowing to Jigoro Kano is a tradition, not a requirement, for learning and practicing good Judo. Bowing is a Japanese tradition, not a universal tradition. I have never had a problem with it. However, Judo, while of Japanese origin, is now a world-wide activity that crosses many cultural and religious boundaries. If any member, whether Muslim, conservative Christian, Buddhist, or whatever, decides for religious or cultural reasons that the cannot accept the practice of bowing to a photo of Jigoro Kano, they are still welcome to practice Judo in our dojo. As stated earlier, the fact is that we may not demand that they violate their religious conscience because of our being a Federally sponsored institution, and by the rules of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
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    Y-Chromosome

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    Re: Parent "extremely uncomfortable" having her children "bow to that picture on the wall"

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:54 am

    Ryvai wrote:
    Richard Riehle wrote:Judo is not about bowing.

    Howdy Richard. In our dojo we also have some Muslims. One of them has a father who is a 'Imam' and leads a place of Islamic worship, so the rules are super strict about bowing. His son was even in his 20's and was still not allowed to bow to anyone other than Allah. We solved the issue by compromise. The rules dictate that they are allowed to bow to other people or even the wall for that matter, just not very low, like they do when praying from their knees. So in line-up and the beginning and end of class he would sit in seiza, with the hands placed on his thighs, and lower his upper body and head to show his respect to the sensei. He would also be allowed to bow to the picture of kano and other students, just not deeply, like we do from the knees. For us this is okay, as his religion dictates this by rule, however it does not stop him from showing his fellow students, sensei and kano the mutual respect they deserve, which reigi is all about. What do you think about this compromise? Smile

    An old thread, but this came up ... again ... so:

    Personally I'm not fond of such a compromise because it is disruptive of the group dynamic and while the individual may argue that they are practicing humility before God, in practice insisting on such exemptions places the individual above or at least outside the remainder of the group.  It becomes a power-play... my beliefs/values/traditions outweigh your beliefs/values/traditions.  Let's play the minority card and see who blinks first.

    We've had many Muslim students over the years and only a few instances of refusal to bow.  In some cases to the portrait of Kano in others any zarei at all.  So far it has always been children prohibited by their parents.  No amount of explanation or reasoning is sufficient in these cases.  If I can't convince them of evolution by natural selection, I'm not going to convince them bowing to an image of Kano is not idolatry, although I always try.  Frankly, I'm not entirely convinced it isn't myself, but I'm not particularly bothered by it.  It's symbolic, not tangible.  I saluted flags and cenotaphs in the military, not of out respect for the piece of cloth or bronze but for the people past and present they represent.

    There are a few disruptive aspects of this which I'd like to unpack.

    1.  The kid is symbolically placed above other students and even the senseis.  I've had kids just sit there not bowing at all during the opening ceremony.  This means that during Sensei-ni-rei, the senseis are bowing towards this kid (amongst others of course) and the kid is just sitting there watching them bow towards him. and all the other kids lower themselves around him.  Same during otagai-ni-rei.
    2.  The kid is being taught that their parent's authority trumps the sensei's... EVEN within the context of a judo class.
    3.  The kid is taught that their beliefs/values/traditions are more important than other people's.  They must be respected, others people's values can be ignored.
    4. It won't wash at shiai.
    5. It won't wash in kata.

    I had one kid who insisted on interrupting me while I was teaching the class about bowing, how to do it and what it represents to explain how he was not bowing and to demonstrate how he was just going to nod his head. I .... did not appreciate the interruption... or the input. So not ONLY am going to insist on being special... I'm going to undermine sensei's lecture.
    To be clear, I was in mid-sentence, had not invited questions nor comment and the outburst was not in the spirit of sharing input but rather, "look at how special I am". You'd understand if you heard the smug tone this was delivered in.
    Insisting on special treatment, uninvited interruptions and unjustified smugness. Three things I ADORE in a student.

    I've had to tolerate it.  Not my dojo, and the technical director doesn't want to turn down any paying student.  In a variety of cases this has proven counter-productive as we've had multiple people quit over the misbehaviour of a single bad apple.

    If and when I start my own dojo, I will VERY seriously consider eschewing the shomen-ni-rei.  I feel pretty comfortable that I can justify bowing to the sensei and to other students but when it comes to bowing to a portrait, maybe they have a point.  If any potential student has a problem bowing to ME, especially when I am bowing BACK... I think I would also be comfortable not teaching that person.

    I'd be FASCINATED to know if anyone has gotten to the point of a shodan grading and asked to modify Nage no Kata to eliminate the zarei.  How does that work exactly?

    For the most part, I think our students and their parents have been open-minded enough to recognize that what a bow symbolizes in the dojo and what it symbolizes in the Mosque are two different things.

    FWIW, I have never seen a Christian student have an issue with it.  This is Montreal though.
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    Jihef

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    Re: Parent "extremely uncomfortable" having her children "bow to that picture on the wall"

    Post by Jihef on Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:04 pm

    Y-Chromosome wrote: Insisting on special treatment, uninvited interruptions and unjustified smugness.  Three things I ADORE in a student.
    Nice one. Razz


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    Fritz

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    Re: Parent "extremely uncomfortable" having her children "bow to that picture on the wall"

    Post by Fritz on Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:05 pm

    Y-Chromosome wrote:If and when I start my own dojo, I will VERY seriously consider eschewing the shomen-ni-rei.  I feel pretty comfortable that I can justify bowing to the sensei and to other students but when it comes to bowing to a portrait, maybe they have a point.  If any potential student has a problem bowing to ME, especially when I am bowing BACK... I think I would also be comfortable not teaching that person.
    Thats exactly my opinion, training session starts with bowing, if someone refuse to bow - so there is no training session for him ...


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    Reinberger

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    Re: Parent "extremely uncomfortable" having her children "bow to that picture on the wall"

    Post by Reinberger on Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:52 am

    Y-Chromosome wrote:If and when I start my own dojo, I will VERY seriously consider eschewing the shomen-ni-rei.  I feel pretty comfortable that I can justify bowing to the sensei and to other students but when it comes to bowing to a portrait, maybe they have a point

    Are you sure that you are just bowing to a person's portrait, when, during shomen-ni-rei, you bow in the direction that portrait, if used at all, is usually located?

    Who or what are you bowing to when you enter or leave an empty dōjō as the first or last person?
    Who or what are shinpan bowing to, when they enter an empty shiai-jō?
    Who or what are competitors bowing to, when they enter the tatami, before greeting each other/the referee?


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    noboru

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    respect to shomen

    Post by noboru on Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:53 am

    In our small dojo do shomen ni rei. In the shomen is Kano Jigoro photo and two calligraphies (Jundo Seisho and Renshinkai judo dojo). Bowing to shomen explains our respect to founder of judo. Could be respect in mind during bow (to shomen, to partners) , if not, you have not do it - it is useless movent.
    Bowing with respect in mind prepare your mind teach self. it is good for your improvment (less ego, more chances to teach self).

    I have personal experience with one japanese sensei (8th dan iaido, 7th dan kendo). He talked about presence founders photo, calligraphy in dojo. Bowing to shomen and their present in dojo make better keiko - it is his opinion (japanese person), he talked, that Gods help make keiko better (presence good mind, good question, good answers, good endeavour, good will hang on keiko to end - all for teaching and learning) and shomen is symbol of them.
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    Y-Chromosome

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    Re: Parent "extremely uncomfortable" having her children "bow to that picture on the wall"

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:16 am

    noboru wrote:In our small dojo do shomen ni rei. In the shomen is Kano Jigoro photo and two calligraphies (Jundo he talked, that Gods help make keiko better (presence good mind, good question, good answers, good endeavour, good will hang on keiko to end  - all for teaching and learning) and shomen is symbol of them.

    If this were the case, that would confirm any objection that is based on a religion's opposition to idolatry.
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    Y-Chromosome

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    Re: Parent "extremely uncomfortable" having her children "bow to that picture on the wall"

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:39 am

    Reinberger wrote:
    Y-Chromosome wrote:If and when I start my own dojo, I will VERY seriously consider eschewing the shomen-ni-rei.  I feel pretty comfortable that I can justify bowing to the sensei and to other students but when it comes to bowing to a portrait, maybe they have a point

    Are you sure that you are just bowing to a person's portrait, when, during shomen-ni-rei, you bow in the direction that portrait, if used at all, is usually located?

    Who or what are you bowing to when you enter or leave an empty dōjō as the first or last person?
    Who or what are shinpan bowing to, when they enter an empty shiai-jō?
    Who or what are competitors bowing to, when they enter the tatami, before greeting each other/the referee?

    In all cases a good question, which probably deserves more reflection.
    There have been some cases where competitors have raised objections about bowing to an inanimate object (ie the mat) during competitions.  My counter-argument would be, that the bow is a sign of respect to the referees, timekeepers and scorekeepers who are manning that mat on your behalf.  An empty mat though?  Good question.  Bowing to the spirit of judo, the idea of judo?  It does tend to smack of idolatry don't you think?

    I recall a similar debate when they proposed to change the RCMP oath to remove overt reference to God.  Some people were arguing that "God" doesn't really mean God, it means "something important to you" which didn't much hold water with me.  There's no constitutional, legal or academic basis for such an assertion and to someone religious, "God" absolutely means God and it's pretty safe to assume that "God" meant God to whoever framed the oath the first place.

    If the meaning of a symbolic action is clear and justifiable, then by all means proceed if you are comfortable with the justification.  If the meaning is unclear, then don't think it's unreasonable to question it.
    How can an action be justified if we don't even know what it means?
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    Reinberger

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    Re: Parent "extremely uncomfortable" having her children "bow to that picture on the wall"

    Post by Reinberger on Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:39 pm

    Y-Chromosome wrote: Bowing to the spirit of judo, the idea of judo?  It does tend to smack of idolatry don't you think?

    Honestly, I don't think so. There can't be idolatry, adoration or worship, as long as one hasn't idolatry or adoration or worship in mind. Regarding Jūdō and a portrait of Kanō-shihan, I don't believe that any right-minded, mature jūdoka regards him as an idol or even god, who has to be worshipped. IMHO, to bow in the direction his portrait may be located, also means neither just bowing before his picture, nor to just bow before (t)his deceased person. Neither does it constitute chauvinism to bow in that direction, if, for example, a flag is mounted there. I think they all are just symbols for something much more comprehensive. The "spirit", the "idea" of something? May be that this comes a bit closer, but I don't think that this wording imparts a much better comprehension. Easier explained, the location of such or other things just show which side of the dōjō is regarded as shōmen(front) or kamiza (seat of honour, upper-, or chief [not "gods"!] seat).

    Y-Chromosome wrote:If the meaning of a symbolic action is clear and justifiable, then by all means proceed if you are comfortable with the justification.  If the meaning is unclear, then don't think it's unreasonable to question it. How can an action be justified if we don't even know what it means?

    Absolutely correct. I don't think it's unreasonable to question it. Quite the contrary! Why should we even practice something, if we have no idea what it means? To do that nevertheless, may be the correct attitude for a beginner, for whom most of what happens in a Būdō-class may be new and unknown. But later, one should know what is done and why it is done. To act otherwise, I think, may even be in violation of the important Jūdō-maxim seiryoku zenyō. I would call such actions "pseudo-Asiatic mumbo-jumbo". Of course - we all know, that exoticism is something that has played its role in the dissemination and popularization of Asian martial arts in the rest of the world. Nevertheless, at this point in time I think we already should be beyond that, all the more, as it involves the danger of misuse.

    So why practicing reishiki (here confined to shōmen-ni-rei, which seems to be the actual topic of this thread)? As far as I understand it, bowing to the front-side (shōmen) of a dōjō has nothing to do with religion or cultism. It's all about manners, courtesy and respect, done the way they are usually displayed in that culture, the respective art/sport is rooted in. Within Japanese rooted arts/sports, this are the different forms of bowing, like equestrians may lift hats, Western fencers move their weapons in a certain way, or boxers may touch each others gloves. The much bigger frequency of analogous actions in Budō is simply due to its cultural heritage. They always mark something that is (a bit or much) more formal, than other ordinary behaviour.

    Therefore I regard the performing of shōmen-ni-rei as the formal act that marks the mutual, "official" begin or end of a budō-class. It means "now something special starts", or "now something special ends". It's also a sign of togetherness, of modesty, of humility, of being a part of a group, of striving  for a "goal" together, instead of just acting completely selfish, with only personal  success in mind. In the Japanese culture particularly, being "inside" or "outside" of a group makes a big difference, perhaps more than in other cultures. For Jūdō, I think, this common bow could even be considered as one outward expression of its second maxim, jita kyōei. It's also a tradition, but not a religious act. Considered from an individual point of view nevertheless, it is, what an individual makes out of it.

    That said, I think it's time to make a little restriction. If, in a dōjō, a kamidana or a butsudan is present, bowing in that direction MAY also have a religious meaning for Shintoists or Buddhists. However, even the designation "religious" involves different connotations  with regard to Shintoism and Buddhism on the one hand, and Judaism, Christianity and Islam on the other. Anyway, a simple portrait of the founder of Nihon-den Kodōkan Jūdō is neither a Shintoistic nor a Buddhistic, nor another religious symbol, nor is the bow performed in its direction meant as adoration of the person or its picture.

    Let me finalize this post with two personal experiences: In the Seventies, I also practiced Gojūryū Karatedō. When some people left the original dōjō to establish a new club in a public school's gym (in order to be able to get the official federation's ranks and to participate at official tournaments), the Austrian teacher resumed the original ceremonial with shōmen-ni-rei, sensei-ni-rei and otagai-ni-rei. But we had no picture, no flag, nothing that represented shōmen or kamiza there. When Ogawa-shihan, our chief-teacher, noticed that, he asked: "Why are you doing shōmen-ni-rei?", and we stopped practicing it. I learned: You only do shōmen-ni-rei, if there is a symbol present, a symbol for what I explained earlier. But it is not the symbol itself, you are bowing to. Therefore it isn't always important (for certain schools it may well be), WHICH symbol is used. It may be (a) portrait(s) of (a) person(s) important to the respective art, style, or dōjō, it may be a flag, it may be a kamon, it may be a certain calligraphy, or whatever, something with meaning for that art, style, school, group or dōjō. When, some twenty years later, Ogawa-sensei was invited to teach at a camp organized by a certain Federation of Jūjutsu, where a federation-flag was mounted, and shōmen-ni-rei was performed in the direction of the flag, he showed himself impressed, and applauded that kind of manners, which obviously meanwhile had fallen into complete disuse in the circles he usually taught.

    The second story exceeds the simple meaning of the three bows already mentioned, and usually performed as some kind of standard  in many dōjō of different Japanese arts, and it indeed touches the "religious" sphere. Towards the end of the Eighties, after about twenty years of training in different budō, as well as some years of interest and self-training in sword arts, I learned about a group practising Iaidō/Iaijutsu not far away from my place. I wanted to join them, but decided to watch a class before joining, and was admitted to do so. At this time Harada-sensei, the founder of the school, was in Vienna, and taught the class himself. At the beginning they started to recite something with peculiar voices, the students reading it from papers they held in their hands. After the recitation they did rei with gassho (hands held together like in prayer). I was a bit dismayed. Should I have encountered some cult? I certainly don't needed something like that! However, I didn't want to judge too early, and after the training ended, which after the strange beginning looked like I had expected, I asked one of the apparently advanced students, who also had taught, what that was, I've caught at the official start of the class (before that, they'd done suburi, the usual cutting exercises). "We read Hannya shingyō, the Heart sutra, a buddhist text." Again, I was dismayed. But then, he continued: "Look, our teacher is a Buddhist priest, so for him this ceremony also has "religious" meanings, but everyone else may just regard it as a kind of breathing exercise, that precedes the short period of meditation, following it." You know what? I could very well live with that explanation, and I still do so, until today, when I, meanwhile second generation head of the Jūjutsu-section of that school, lead the ceremony myself, and from a position, which absolutely allows me to decide what is what in that regard. Today, of course, it isn't done just as breathing exercise, but also as continuation and respect of a tradition our late teacher has introduced in his school, as well as in loving memory of him, for all that have known him in person, at least. So much, in my case, for "being comfortable with the justification" Very Happy.  I admit, of course, that all this may be a bit harder to argue, to explain and to accept, than the performance of a simple shōmen-ni-rei.

    I find it difficult to express such thoughts in English, but hope I was able to do that understandable enough.


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    Y-Chromosome

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    Re: Parent "extremely uncomfortable" having her children "bow to that picture on the wall"

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:53 am

    Reinberger wrote:
    I find it difficult to express such thoughts in English, but hope I was able to do that understandable enough.

    No apologies are necessary.  You laid that out wonderfully.

    I complete agree with you that the Shomen-ni-rei is not idolatry, neither in intent nor effect.  I used the idiomatic expression "smacks of" which means to be reminiscent of something or to imply something. Not the same as actually BEING something.

    It is a question of appearance and interpretation by the new or prospective student or more frequently their parents.  To some people, if it LOOKS like a duck and QUACKS like a duck... it's a duck.  So if it looks like idolatry and sounds like idolatry, I can argue all I want that it's not, but I may not get very far.

    The zarei bears more than a passing resemblance to position adopted by observant Muslims in prayer.


    For some people even the appearance of idolatry is going to be an issue.  Perhaps they are worried about what others from their community would think if the practice were observed.  Perhaps they are simply observing themselves, without asking questions of the sensei.  The situation is not helped when half the kids bow improperly and touch their foreheads to the tatami, despite our best efforts to tech the zarei properly.

    I love your story about the Sensei who questioned the showmen-ni-rei when no well-defined showmen was established.  I think in part this answers the question about a referee bowing onto an empty mat and similar situations.  Perhaps he shouldn't, unless there's already a tournament Joseki established, in which case it may be appropriate to acknowledge joseki. Sometimes I think we do things out of habit or reflex without necessarily reflecting on the actual reasons we're doing it. Bowing onto a mat becomes something of a Pavlovian response after a while.

    In sum, I don't think this issue is going to go away.  I think this thread brings up some very good points and ample argument, but we have to accept that not everyone will find those arguments compelling.

    We do have a dojo in our area that operates out of an Islamic community centre.  The students and parents are majority Muslim.  I will have to ask the Sensei what his practices are and if he's found any need to modify standard judo traditions.
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    Reinberger

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    Re: Parent "extremely uncomfortable" having her children "bow to that picture on the wall"

    Post by Reinberger on Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:49 am

    Y-Chromosome wrote:The zarei bears more than a passing resemblance to position adopted by observant Muslims in prayer.

    I understand clearly what you mean. That's the reason, why I always stress particularly not only the disparities in the meaning, but also in the outer appearance of this two completely different actions. With the sketches you provided, you unfortunately didn't use a very good example of zarei in budō, I'm afraid. To hold the head as well as the back straight (and, of course, not to lift the buttocks from the calves) are important characteristics of zarei, and differ in an eye-catching way from the positions taken in Islamic prayers:

    (from http://asaikarate.com/do-you-know-how-to-bow-correctly-or-properly-part-2-kneeling-bow-za-rei-%E5%BA%A7%E7%A4%BC/, where there are also examples and explanations of "bad" or "wrong" bows shown.)

    Y-Chromosome wrote:It is a question of appearance and interpretation by the new or prospective student or more frequently their parents.  To some people, if it LOOKS like a duck and QUACKS like a duck... it's a duck.  So if it looks like idolatry and sounds like idolatry, I can argue all I want that it's not, but I may not get very far. ...

    For some people even the appearance of idolatry is going to be an issue.  Perhaps they are worried about what others from their community would think if the practice were observed.  Perhaps they are simply observing themselves, without asking questions of the sensei.  The situation is not helped when half the kids bow improperly and touch their foreheads to the tatami, despite our best efforts to tech the zarei properly. ...

    In sum, I don't think this issue is going to go away.  I think this thread brings up some very good points and ample argument, but we have to accept that not everyone will find those arguments compelling. ...

    I think you are right with that assumptions. This leaves us with two questions:

    1. Isn't it the duty of a budō sensei to teach more than just the physical techniques, and wouldn't it be a violation of this duty to simply accept and tolerate misconceptions?

    I think yes, for both points.

    2. Should, therefore, an attitude corresponding to such misconceptions, based on superficial observations, be ignored or tolerated in a dōjō?

    Since we agree on the fact, that the practicing of the standard rei in budō has neither to do with religion, nor with idolatry, and not least therefore can't neither touch the area of religious liberty, nor of discrimination on the basis of religious belief, in fact and in reality, and since I consider reihō to be an integral part of budō, I would say: No.

    Please ask the parents to observe more precisely, explain the meaning, and demonstrate the correct, educated way of performing rei yourself. May be this helps. Otherwise ... like I said.

    Y-Chromosome wrote:We do have a dojo in our area that operates out of an Islamic community centre.  The students and parents are majority Muslim.  I will have to ask the Sensei what his practices are and if he's found any need to modify standard judo traditions.

    To me it would be of great interest, if you would be both, so kind and able to disclose his answer here.

    Regarding the question of referees bowing, when entering the mat, I see it a bit different. But I think at this point it would stretch the topic of this thread too much, to further discuss this here.


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    Reinberger

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    Re: Parent "extremely uncomfortable" having her children "bow to that picture on the wall"

    Post by Reinberger on Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:38 am

    Regarding the quote "Judo is not about bowing." I very much liked the story I once read on the web, in which a karate sensei taught his children-students:

    "Karate is the art of proper arranging your shoes before the entrance of the wardrobe."

    Regardfulness, awareness and courteousness - they all constitute parts of the very heart of every (REAL, if I may say so) budō, and therefore are parts of what distinguishes them from systems, that merely teach techniques to mow down others.


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    noboru

    Posts : 598
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 39
    Location : Czech Republic

    Re: Parent "extremely uncomfortable" having her children "bow to that picture on the wall"

    Post by noboru on Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:45 am

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    finarashi

    Posts : 469
    Join date : 2013-01-11
    Location : Finland

    Re: Parent "extremely uncomfortable" having her children "bow to that picture on the wall"

    Post by finarashi on Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:13 am

    It would be so easy if "others" changed the way they do things because of my "religious beliefs".
    clash with my religious holiday
    .. but many do not see the that if something is not how "I" like it to be then
    a) I do not participate
    b) I change my beliefs and participate
    but I do not demand others to change their ways.


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    Jonesy

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    Re: Parent "extremely uncomfortable" having her children "bow to that picture on the wall"

    Post by Jonesy on Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:39 pm

    Judo begins and ends with politeness, rei. That includes a bow and is non negotiable.


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    Udon

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    Join date : 2012-12-31
    Location : Minnesota

    Re: Parent "extremely uncomfortable" having her children "bow to that picture on the wall"

    Post by Udon on Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:13 am

    Well said Jonesy.
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    NBK

    Posts : 1128
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Parent "extremely uncomfortable" having her children "bow to that picture on the wall"

    Post by NBK on Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:16 pm

    IN our dojo we have class bow in to:
    Shomen
    Sensei
    Each other
    and reverse at the end.

    I explain to the children that the least important thing in the room is 'us'. The more important in terms of courtesy is 'sensei'. and the most important is 'shomen', which represents the entire tradition, founders, etc.

    Most seem to get it.

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    Re: Parent "extremely uncomfortable" having her children "bow to that picture on the wall"

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