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    Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

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    PJ

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    Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by PJ on Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:50 am

    I know judo's not about revenge etc., however, arrogant and patronising instructors / black belts do not help the martial art.

    In my usual club this week (which is usually good), there was a guy who recently became blackbelt and who I had to randori with. I'm a much lower grade. Now I wasn't expecting to win against a blackbelt but I was giving it my best effort anyway and all he did was patronise me. Now I dont expect people to help me necessarily in randori, however, it's useful when they do as I hadn't done judo for years before a few weeks back so I've forgotten a massive amount of stuff, but this guy would act like he was helping by suggesting something and then when I tried what he suggested and it didn't work, he would be patronising.

    It seems like now he's got his blackbelt, which only shows that his JUDO SKILLS are superior to lower grades, he feels like HE is superior to lower grades.

    Don't get me wrong, I would have no problem if a randori partner didn't try to help me; it is randori after all, but this guy was just so incredibly patronising.

    So my question is, if I re-learn enough stuff by next lesson (about a week from now), say from the internet etc., and learn enough new stuff the same way, would it be possible to floor him just once to teach him a lesson in humility, or would he see everything coming because of his grade?

    I know this sounds like "revenge" but these guys are the kind of people who put people off judo, and as you probably know if you're in the UK, clubs don't have a massive attendance rate (when it comes to adults anyway) as it is.
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    afja_lm139

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by afja_lm139 on Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:13 am

    PJ wrote:I know judo's not about revenge etc., however, arrogant and patronising instructors / black belts do not help the martial art.

    In my usual club this week (which is usually good), there was a guy who recently became blackbelt and who I had to randori with. I'm a much lower grade. Now I wasn't expecting to win against a blackbelt but I was giving it my best effort anyway and all he did was patronise me. Now I dont expect people to help me necessarily in randori, however, it's useful when they do as I hadn't done judo for years before a few weeks back so I've forgotten a massive amount of stuff, but this guy would act like he was helping by suggesting something and then when I tried what he suggested and it didn't work, he would be patronising.

    It seems like now he's got his blackbelt, which only shows that his JUDO SKILLS are superior to lower grades, he feels like HE is superior to lower grades.

    Don't get me wrong, I would have no problem if a randori partner didn't try to help me; it is randori after all, but this guy was just so incredibly patronising.

    So my question is, if I re-learn enough stuff by next lesson (about a week from now), say from the internet etc., and learn enough new stuff the same way, would it be possible to floor him just once to teach him a lesson in humility, or would he see everything coming because of his grade?

    I know this sounds like "revenge" but these guys are the kind of people who put people off judo, and as you probably know if you're in the UK, clubs don't have a massive attendance rate (when it comes to adults anyway) as it is.

    While this occurs often the best response to gaining a grade in Martian Arts it to be humble and helpful; when appropriate.  In the "old days" :)when such a person first dawned the black obi and acted like his droppings did not stink, other guys would make an example of him or her.  If you practice in such a dojo watch for this to happen. You are very correct that such people do harm Judo for many lesser Judoka. But, that's life and you will profit by getting better at it.

    PJ

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by PJ on Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:19 am

    Thanks for the response and I did consider the being humble stuff - however, it's highly unlikely that I would learn anything from someone whose only reason for fighting lower grades seems to be that he feels superior and who just patronises. If he was a lower grade I may learn from eventually throwing him (e.g. by analysing what I did afterwards that made the throw successful), but I don't see what I'd learn in this case.

    If he had been acting with some decency and I was getting thrown, that would make a difference and I'd just be humble and accept it.

    But even when I avoided getting thrown quite a few times when he tried on me (better than last week where, whoever I was with, I was getting thrown left right and centre), there was no praise or encouragement, just silence then more patronising me when I couldn't throw him. I also don't see how fighting him will help me get any better if he's going to act like that.

    DougNZ

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by DougNZ on Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:21 am

    Wow! Let me see ... you used to do judo years ago but remain a kyu grade. You have been back a few weeks. Last week you got thrown, this week less so. I can almost picture how that must look. Then there is a new black belt trying to help you by encouraging you to try things and then making comments when your attacks failed. What were they? Things like, "That's okay; you've only just got back." Or, "Nice try. Don't expect too much against a black belt." ???

    Having done judo a while some time ago, I'm sure you have an expectation of where you should be, ability-wise. I'm sure you will make faster progress than other beginners as you get back to form. However, you will have a long, long way to go before your technique, timing and control becomes sound. Maybe five or ten years ...? Watching a couple of you tube clips won't speed that up noticeably. And don't expect huge improvements in a week. If you notice them, then it's probably luck and next week or the one after, you'll be slapping the mat again. Getting good takes time.

    Randori is not about beating someone. Nor is judo, for that matter. Judo is about beating yourself. And it seems that you have a worthy opponent. Choosing to be humble now or then is not the martial way; try it all the time.

    Cut your black belt clubmate some slack. Having only been training with him a couple of weeks, I'm guessing you don't really know him. I'm guessing he is adjusting to his new role. He probably has just started teaching and that may be awkward to him. It sounds to me that, if nothing else, he is being helpful and encouraging. He's also working with a beginner who has very high expectations of himself. Be thankful that he is taking the time to work with you and offer advice when he would probably benefit personally by spending the time he is spending with you doing randori with one of peers or seniors.

    Gus

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Gus on Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:23 am

    TL;DR : I wouldn't advise it

    If you are lower level (not always the case - Ive known some green belts who were better than some blackbelts - they just couldnt afford to grade) - anyway, if he is better than you - I would not try to "teach him a lesson" as you will probably just end up getting injured or injuring him, sinificant improvemtns in your technique will take time - they are not going to happen in a couple of weeks. Retain your dignity - use the anger you feel to inspire you train harder. If this guy is a complete tool do not train with him - or - smile and nod and bit by bit get slowly better, and better, and better..........
    P.S. As Im sure someone will soon wade in with ; randori is not a competition (except we all have egos so sometimes it is but it shouldn't be)

    PJ

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by PJ on Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:19 am

    DougNZ wrote:Wow!  Let me see ... you used to do judo years ago but remain a kyu grade.  You have been back a few weeks.  Last week you got thrown, this week less so.  I can almost picture how that must look.  Then there is a new black belt trying to help you by encouraging you to try things and then making comments when your attacks failed.  What were they?  Things like, "That's okay; you've only just got back."  Or, "Nice try.  Don't expect too much against a black belt." ???

    Having done judo a while some time ago, I'm sure you have an expectation of where you should be, ability-wise.  I'm sure you will make faster progress than other beginners as you get back to form.  However, you will have a long, long way to go before your technique, timing and control becomes sound.  Maybe five or ten years ...?  Watching a couple of you tube clips won't speed that up noticeably.  And don't expect huge improvements in a week.  If you notice them, then it's probably luck and next week or the one after, you'll be slapping the mat again.  Getting good takes time.

    Randori is not about beating someone.  Nor is judo, for that matter.  Judo is about beating yourself.  And it seems that you have a worthy opponent.  Choosing to be humble now or then is not the martial way; try it all the time.

    Cut your black belt clubmate some slack.  Having only been training with him a couple of weeks, I'm guessing you don't really know him.  I'm guessing he is adjusting to his new role.  He probably has just started teaching and that may be awkward to him.  It sounds to me that, if nothing else, he is being helpful and encouraging.  He's also working with a beginner who has very high expectations of himself.  Be thankful that he is taking the time to work with you and offer advice when he would probably benefit personally by spending the time he is spending with you doing randori with one of peers or seniors.    

    I'm sure you've been a member of this forum for some time and are therefore well-respected. However, I respectfully request that next time you choose to respond to a post that I make, you don't just skim read it. Then your post will actualy be relevant to what I actually said, not apparent prejudices based on skim-reading it.

    Gus wrote:TL;DR : I wouldn't advise it

    If you are lower level (not always the case - Ive known some green belts who were better than some blackbelts - they just couldnt afford to grade) - anyway, if he is better than you - I would not try to "teach him a lesson" as you will probably just end up getting injured or injuring him, sinificant improvemtns in your technique will take time - they are not going to happen in a couple of weeks. Retain your dignity - use the anger you feel to inspire you train harder. If this guy is a complete tool do not train with him - or - smile and nod and bit by bit get slowly better, and better, and better..........
    P.S. As Im sure someone will soon wade in with ; randori is not a competition (except we all have egos so sometimes it is but it shouldn't be)

    Thank you for the constructive response. I don't feel anger at him, just disappointment. As the person who skimread my post and then made an inappropriate response kind of pointed out in a weird way, black belts are supposed to help lower grades and encourage them (which as DougNZ would know if he'd read my post properly, is not what happened, as you can see).

    I don't intend on any injury - I just want to show him (or, as someone suggested may happen, someone else to show him) that being a blackbelt does not entitle arrogance and the right to patronise people instead of helping them improve - in short, I want him to know that whilst being a blackbelt certainly meant he put lots of time and effort in and thoroughly deserves the grade, it doesn't mean he should stop being humble and it doesn't mean he's better (other than judo skillwise) than everyone else.

    I know randori is not a competition (though it's close to it if it's full randori - not throw-for-throw), but try telling this guy that.

    As I mentioned, despite what DouglasNZ somehow imagined from my above post, this guy was patronising when I couldn't throw him and not the slightest bit encouraging when I avoided being thrown by him most times he tried - even though that was a massive improvement on last week.

    Good advice anyway, thank you again.

    Gus

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Gus on Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:27 am

    Hi,
    I didn't mean you would intend to injure him, only that an effort to "teach him a lesson" would likely involve using a lot of strength seeing as you haven't had time to develop the technique yet and this is what usually leads to injury - thus the saying "the most dangerous person on the mat is a white belt" , I'm not saying you're a whitebelt either - just that an all out spazz attack trying to beat someone who has years more experience than you is futile and will almost certainly end in tears Very Happy ......... but believe me I understand the sentiment.
    Most people who are really really good at things are humble - its the second raters who tend to be trying to display dominance as those who are really good don't need to - the empty barrel as they say , makes the loudest noise.
    Some people do start thinking they are the best thing ever when they get their black belt - perhaps its even natural - but Ive found people who really are much better than me always explained things carefully and patiently and never came across as patronising - so I do appreciate that the guy does sound like a bit of an idiot.

    PJ

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by PJ on Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:07 am

    Gus wrote:Hi,
    I didn't mean you would intend to injure him, only that an effort to "teach him a lesson" would likely involve using a lot of strength seeing as you haven't had time to develop the technique yet and this is what usually leads to injury - thus the saying "the most dangerous person on the mat is a white belt" , I'm not saying you're a whitebelt either - just that an all out spazz attack trying to beat someone who has years more experience than you is futile and will almost certainly end in tears Very Happy ......... but believe me I understand the sentiment.
    Most people who are really really good at things are humble - its the second raters who tend to be trying to display dominance as those who are really good don't need to - the empty barrel as they say , makes the loudest noise.
    Some people do start thinking they are the best thing ever when they get their black belt - perhaps its even natural - but Ive found people who really are much better than me always explained things carefully and patiently and never came across as patronising - so I do appreciate that the guy does sound like a bit of an idiot.

    Oh I totally understand, I believe, what you mean about injury now. I would't go for the kind of attack you describe - I simply wondered whether it was possible to learn enough to be at a level to have a good chance of flooring him - safely.

    I have also found the people you describe - probably every instructor I've met besides this guy, so I have experience of being chucked around like a ragdoll by black belts and not being bothered about it - it's just the one guy not only not being encouraging when I avoid being thrown, but also being patronising, that made fighting with this guy bad.

    And I understand the pride with getting a blackbelt, so I don't fault him for that. It's just the rest of it.

    Gus

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Gus on Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:09 am

    PJ wrote:
    Gus wrote:Hi,
    I didn't mean you would intend to injure him, only that an effort to "teach him a lesson" would likely involve using a lot of strength seeing as you haven't had time to develop the technique yet and this is what usually leads to injury - thus the saying "the most dangerous person on the mat is a white belt" , I'm not saying you're a whitebelt either - just that an all out spazz attack trying to beat someone who has years more experience than you is futile and will almost certainly end in tears Very Happy ......... but believe me I understand the sentiment.
    Most people who are really really good at things are humble - its the second raters who tend to be trying to display dominance as those who are really good don't need to - the empty barrel as they say , makes the loudest noise.
    Some people do start thinking they are the best thing ever when they get their black belt - perhaps its even natural - but Ive found people who really are much better than me always explained things carefully and patiently and never came across as patronising - so I do appreciate that the guy does sound like a bit of an idiot.

    Oh I totally understand, I believe, what you mean about injury now. I would't go for the kind of attack you describe - I simply wondered whether it was possible to learn enough to be at a level to have a good chance of flooring him - safely.

    I have also found the people you describe - probably every instructor I've met besides this guy, so I have experience of being chucked around like a ragdoll by black belts and not being bothered about it - it's just the one guy not only not being encouraging when I avoid being thrown, but also being patronising, that made fighting with this guy bad.

    And I understand the pride with getting a blackbelt, so I don't fault him for that. It's just the rest of it.

    Is this guy the instructor ?

    PJ

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by PJ on Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:13 am

    Gus wrote:
    PJ wrote:
    Gus wrote:Hi,
    I didn't mean you would intend to injure him, only that an effort to "teach him a lesson" would likely involve using a lot of strength seeing as you haven't had time to develop the technique yet and this is what usually leads to injury - thus the saying "the most dangerous person on the mat is a white belt" , I'm not saying you're a whitebelt either - just that an all out spazz attack trying to beat someone who has years more experience than you is futile and will almost certainly end in tears Very Happy ......... but believe me I understand the sentiment.
    Most people who are really really good at things are humble - its the second raters who tend to be trying to display dominance as those who are really good don't need to - the empty barrel as they say , makes the loudest noise.
    Some people do start thinking they are the best thing ever when they get their black belt - perhaps its even natural - but Ive found people who really are much better than me always explained things carefully and patiently and never came across as patronising - so I do appreciate that the guy does sound like a bit of an idiot.

    Oh I totally understand, I believe, what you mean about injury now. I would't go for the kind of attack you describe - I simply wondered whether it was possible to learn enough to be at a level to have a good chance of flooring him - safely.

    I have also found the people you describe - probably every instructor I've met besides this guy, so I have experience of being chucked around like a ragdoll by black belts and not being bothered about it - it's just the one guy not only not being encouraging when I avoid being thrown, but also being patronising, that made fighting with this guy bad.

    And I understand the pride with getting a blackbelt, so I don't fault him for that. It's just the rest of it.

    Is this guy the instructor ?

    Not entirely sure if he's an official instructor (I don't know how it works - whether being a blackbelt automatically means you can instruct or not). I probably used the wrong word as come to think of it, I'm not sure he was teaching anything. But I may be remembering wrong. But he did stand with all the other instructors in the line-up. I probably should have stuck to 'black belt'. Sorry for the confusion.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:41 am

    PJ wrote:I know judo's not about revenge etc., however, arrogant and patronising instructors / black belts do not help the martial art.

    In my usual club this week (which is usually good), there was a guy who recently became blackbelt and who I had to randori with. I'm a much lower grade. Now I wasn't expecting to win against a blackbelt but I was giving it my best effort anyway and all he did was patronise me. Now I dont expect people to help me necessarily in randori, however, it's useful when they do as I hadn't done judo for years before a few weeks back so I've forgotten a massive amount of stuff, but this guy would act like he was helping by suggesting something and then when I tried what he suggested and it didn't work, he would be patronising.

    It seems like now he's got his blackbelt, which only shows that his JUDO SKILLS are superior to lower grades, he feels like HE is superior to lower grades.

    Don't get me wrong, I would have no problem if a randori partner didn't try to help me; it is randori after all, but this guy was just so incredibly patronising.

    So my question is, if I re-learn enough stuff by next lesson (about a week from now), say from the internet etc., and learn enough new stuff the same way, would it be possible to floor him just once to teach him a lesson in humility, or would he see everything coming because of his grade?

    I know this sounds like "revenge" but these guys are the kind of people who put people off judo, and as you probably know if you're in the UK, clubs don't have a massive attendance rate (when it comes to adults anyway) as it is.

    PJ,

    I know you are asking a fairly simple question, and the easiest way for someone to respond would be a simple 'yes' or 'no', but I don't think that really that is what is at the core of your post. Posts like yours are very difficult for a forum audience to provide fair, proportional and educational response to. This partly is because an individual's experience is produced as the objective truth with the validity of any response depending on the accuracy of that perception. I could say something fairly innocent to someone, yet that person could feel deeply hurt. What is now true ? That what I have said, or the pain of the protagonist ? The fact that I may have never intended that what the other one heard or perceived does not make her/his pain any less real.

    In a situation like the one you describe, after hearing your story, it would be very helpful to then listen to the perceptions and version of the black belt. After that, it would probably be useful to hear the versions of other people present and how they perceived you and how they perceived the black belt. I think you know as well as I do that chances are that we might get some quite different stories. So what is true ? They all may be true, or at least perhaps not 'true' in the literal sense, but reflect each individual's reality. Even on this forum there are people who are nice and just trying to help, and yet some are as water and fire. Why ? Because personalities sometimes conflict, because people might have just started off on the wrong foot, because at one point something happened that both parties regret yet the situation was never mended, and a two dozen other reasons. It happens, and you have to accept that.

    None of us can say if the situation you describe can ever be satisfactorily repaired, but ... you may in future be able to help preventing a similar situation irrespective of who really is at fault when such a situation occurs.

    I think the question you are asking is not the right question to ask. I think that "this town ain't large enough for the two of us, so let' meet at sundown at the Boothill" is something to leave for romanticized tales and movies. Ultimately what you want is to be able to socially and sportively thrive in the environment you have chosen and to do so for a long time. Pissing contests and regular testosterone comparisons do not offer the best chance for that prospect to be realized.

    For a second, let's imagine that next week through some miraculous, highly secret technique you have learnt from one of the Judo Forum Gurus you succeed in throwing this black belt once hard flat on his back. Do you honestly think that this then will be the end of it, and he will now have been taught a lesson en be off your back forever ?

    Jûdô is above all 'yawara': flex, avoid, let all tension pass and glide off you. Your focus should be on your own development, not on putting someone else back on the rails, assuming that is what is happening. If that is truly happening, that is the sensei's responsibility, just as it is the sensei's responsibility if one of his/her members are threatens the practice of jûdô as a safe activity. If this black belt you are talking about really needs to be taught a lesson, why bother about it yourself ? Rest assured that the day will come that someone more experienced than you, and him will come along and do that for you. THAT IS YAWARA TOO !

    While yes, there are dirty techniques you can quickly learn, this isn't the way to go, for many reasons, just one of them being that the black belt might be able to get a lot nastier than maybe he might be now, and he might know more dirty tricks than you. You are not going to suddenly learn jûdô in a week. A technique isn't just a matter of 'moves'. It needs to be incorporated in a strategic game, it needs to be performed with fluidity, explosiveness, at the right moment, and with optimal control and coordination. The movement you may well learn in a week, even in a day, its proper and effective application, no way. In fact, it probably is more effective to focus on optimizing your ukemi. I am talking of experience. I had the doubtful pleasure for many years to regularly be part of the canon meat for a notorious Olympic champion whose name does not matter here although many forum members will know who I mean. He was two weigh classes heavier than me and would every so many seconds flatten me on the tatami more often than not on my face rather than on my back and this with an amount of explosive power you can't even begin to imagine its extent. The idea of "how would I teach this guy a lesson" would be a fun fantasy idea, but not realistic. But this I can tell you, I never quit a single randori against him before the full 5 minutes (or however long they lasted), and each time within seconds I was back on my feet facing him again. Sometimes he tried to throw me even harder, and he actually also did, and I just imagined I was a rubber ball, which is what I often felt alike, apart from the muscle soreness the day after. There is a point where you don't feel pain or humiliation any more as you have reached the point of saturation, and rather than prevent it, I considered it a moment to embrace. I can also tell you this, developing the ability to be thrown, an thrown, and flattened and flattened so that your opponent eventually starts to feel that no matter what they do to you, it does not matter, will be your own little victory. Above anything else, it is something from which you learn, something that shapes the foundation of that what later your jûdô skills will be created on, and it's an everlasting skill that will serve you much more in jûdô, but also in life, rather than any secret Internet jûdô technique that likely will not work but could get you even in a lot more trouble.

    If it's all too much and you can't find your wisdom in Kanô, find it in a Hollywood movie and apply it to jûdô, or to use 'Al Swearengen's words in Deadwood: "Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back." (...)

    Good luck !


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    Stacey

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Stacey on Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:24 am

    Dude, if you don't like working with that particular black belt, don't work with him. Randori with somebody else.

    It's a mistake to learn anything from the internet as a kyu grade (and for many dan grades). If you insist on internet learning andfind something interesting that you want to learn, show it to your head instructor and then get instruction on it. Remember, there's a lot of crap video out there that WILL get you hurt because the instruction is outright stupid. If it doesn't get you hurt, you may risk ending the judo career of your training partner.

    If you've been back for a few weeks, give yourself time to get back into the swing of things. Any substantive break from judo means that your body has changed, and it's going to take a while to both dust off the knowledge, as well as translate what you do remember to your body as it exists today. This is especially true if you were a juvenile when you practiced before and now are an adult, or you were a younger adult and now are older (middle aged or older). Your body changes, and it takes a while to get things back.

    Consequently, your best bet is to just simply refuse to randori with somebody who's not treating you as a training partner. Give yourself a chance to dust off what you know, get your body working again, and get back to a level commensurate with your kyu. Don't go for revenge - it doesn't do anybody any good.

    You can expect the dan to ask you why you won't practice with him (assuming he's not some conceited snot). At that point, you can address his conduct and your feelings with him. Perhaps you can work out a relationship on the tatami that services both your needs.
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    BillC

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by BillC on Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:36 am

    Pajama-man ... by all means do your best to use skill to get the better of all your partners in randori. That's what you are supposed to do. And he to you as well.


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    Hanon

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Hanon on Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:05 am

    PJ wrote:I know judo's not about revenge etc., however, arrogant and patronising instructors / black belts do not help the martial art.

    In my usual club this week (which is usually good), there was a guy who recently became blackbelt and who I had to randori with. I'm a much lower grade. Now I wasn't expecting to win against a blackbelt but I was giving it my best effort anyway and all he did was patronise me. Now I dont expect people to help me necessarily in randori, however, it's useful when they do as I hadn't done judo for years before a few weeks back so I've forgotten a massive amount of stuff, but this guy would act like he was helping by suggesting something and then when I tried what he suggested and it didn't work, he would be patronising.

    It seems like now he's got his blackbelt, which only shows that his JUDO SKILLS are superior to lower grades, he feels like HE is superior to lower grades.

    Don't get me wrong, I would have no problem if a randori partner didn't try to help me; it is randori after all, but this guy was just so incredibly patronising.

    So my question is, if I re-learn enough stuff by next lesson (about a week from now), say from the internet etc., and learn enough new stuff the same way, would it be possible to floor him just once to teach him a lesson in humility, or would he see everything coming because of his grade?

    I know this sounds like "revenge" but these guys are the kind of people who put people off judo, and as you probably know if you're in the UK, clubs don't have a massive attendance rate (when it comes to adults anyway) as it is.

    You could always consider the unthinkable? Talk to the man?

    BTW how old are you? I am guessing a youngster?


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    judoratt

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by judoratt on Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:21 pm

    Hannon,
    Is there a person on this forum you do not consider a youngster? Very Happy Very Happy 

    BTW how could I pass that up, hope you are doing well.
    JR

    jkw

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by jkw on Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:59 am

    PJ wrote:So my question is, if I re-learn enough stuff by next lesson (about a week from now), say from the internet etc., and learn enough new stuff the same way, would it be possible to floor him just once to teach him a lesson in humility, or would he see everything coming because of his grade?

    It is probably not possible to "floor him" after a week of internet research and, even if you did, it is unlikely to teach him a lesson in humility - whatever that means. For example, he is not going to get up and say "goodness, now that you've thrown me, I can see that you've been feeling really patronised. Sorry about that".

    I think a more fruitful course of action would be to focus on not letting yourself feel patronised, or avoid randori with him if you are unable to do this.

    jkw

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by jkw on Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:05 am

    PJ wrote:As the person who skimread my post and then made an inappropriate response kind of pointed out in a weird way, black belts are supposed to help lower grades and encourage them

    That's not how I read DougNZ's post - dan-grades are not "supposed" to help lower grades and encourage them. Some do and some don't - but it's not any kind of requirement. Some dan-grades should actively be avoided by lower grades - it's all part of the reality of judo.

    Hanon

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Hanon on Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:45 am

    judoratt wrote:Hannon,
      Is there a person on this forum you do not consider a youngster? Very Happy Very Happy 

    BTW how could I pass that up, hope you are doing well.
                                                                              JR


    Hiya, nice to hear from you. cheers 

    I still refer to my son and daughters as kids when my son is the father of our 13 year old grandson! I guess its relative, at my age and the decades I have spent in judo most posters are genuinely youngsters! Very Happy 

    Thank you for asking about my health. I wished I could write I was fine. Not so I am afraid. I just have to many miles on the clock!

    How are you? I see you also have been around the block a few times in judo yourself. When you turned 50 did your body start a revolution? Crying or Very sad  Very Happy 

    I don't see many of your posts here these days? I enjoy reading them when you make them. I am now doing what so many others do and enjoying the safe life of a judo forum lurker. Not the way things should be but I am passed the phase of written randori!  Cool 

    Very best wishes to you and yours,

    Mike


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    Hanon

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Hanon on Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:03 am

    jkw wrote:
    PJ wrote:As the person who skimread my post and then made an inappropriate response kind of pointed out in a weird way, black belts are supposed to help lower grades and encourage them

    That's not how I read DougNZ's post - dan-grades are not "supposed" to help lower grades and encourage them. Some do and some don't - but it's not any kind of requirement. Some dan-grades should actively be avoided by lower grades - it's all part of the reality of judo.

    I think you will find the maxim "MUTUAL welfare and benefit" is what needs to be learned and internalised by ALL, on and off the tatami. NO ONE in a dojo is more important than any other person. In randori it is the duty and educational responsibility for both partners to look after each other.

    Of course the more we see judo slid into the abyss of a sport culture the less this education is taught as winning is THE point hence situations like the one being debated here.

    It still puzzles the hell out of me when I read posts where judoka still seem to identify randori in terms of winning and losing when that is not even part of the equation?
    The only winner or looser in randori is the uneducated uncontrolled ego.

    Another classic reason judo has not travelled well. WE in the West are just so competitive we often cut our noses off to spite our face. In day to day life I am still capable of doing such immature things  Embarassed 

    I also ponder if some of the posters here have teachers on the tatami? From many of the posts it is painfully obvious pupils don't interact with them?

    I like to think that in my past dojo a pupil would not even need to ask for help as I saw it as my responsibility to identify the pupils difficulties as they arose and intervene. SOME of the dojo these days 'appear' void of any supervision? Perhaps again the sign of a sport mentality, I don't know?

    Mike


    Last edited by Hanon on Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:57 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling etc)


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    DougNZ

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by DougNZ on Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:06 am

    Hanon wrote:I also ponder if some of the posters here have teachers on the tatami? From many of the posts it is painfully obvious pupils don't interject with them?

    I like to think that in my past dojo a pupil would not even need to ask for help as I saw it as my responsibility to identify the pupils difficulties as they arose and intervene. SOME of the dojo these days 'appear' void of any supervision? Perhaps again the sign of a sport mentality, I don't know?

    Mike

    A good point, Hanon sensei.  It is the very same reason I find this OP so distasteful.  I would be very upset, as a dojo sensei, to find that a pupil of a few weeks had taken it upon himself to air his gripes on an international forum rather than have them addressed in-club.

    Mind you, I write this, as I wrote my first reply, with that same sense one has entering for a throw when every instinct screams "Don't do it; this will end badly!"  You know those moments?
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    Stacey

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Stacey on Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:34 am

    Hanon sensei - I think part of the reason the OP is airing his grievances on an international board is because he doesn't understand the basics of how things work in a dojo. It's why white belts in the West regularly reach for white belts for everything instead of going up to a black belt, or discussing issues with the sensei or instructor - it's the norm of other Western education. You try to suss things out yourself without bothering "higher ups".

    The OP has not quieted down far enough and long enough to really comprehend how judo is taught in the dojo, and how that differs from his normative learning experience. At least he's asking his questions here, in a place he considers much less formal, than just going off on his own and learning everything from the internet, and then thinking he actually knows something. At least he's doing randori with dan grades, so the only thing hurt is his ego until he realizes it's really not about ego - ego just gets in the way until the student learns to control it and not insert it into everything.

    Hanon

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Hanon on Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:15 am

    Stacey wrote:Hanon sensei - I think part of the reason the OP is airing his grievances on an international board is because he doesn't understand the basics of how things work in a dojo.  It's why white belts in the West regularly reach for white belts for everything instead of going up to a black belt, or discussing issues with the sensei or instructor - it's the norm of other Western education.  You try to suss things out yourself without bothering "higher ups".

    The OP has not quieted down far enough and long enough to really comprehend how judo is taught in the dojo, and how that differs from his normative learning experience.  At least he's asking his questions here, in a place he considers much less formal, than just going off on his own and learning everything from the internet, and then thinking he actually knows something.  At least he's doing randori with dan grades, so the only thing hurt is his ego until he realizes it's really not about ego - ego just gets in the way until the student learns to control it and not insert it into everything.

    You have always been the voice or reason on the judo forum. You are a professional by nature and work. If we read the magnificent post authored by CK sensei it sums up the entire situation in spades.
    I don't desire a debate with the OP as I have over the years of cyber judo posting gained some small insight into 'reading' the content of a given post.

    Some many years ago a Moderator on the old forum made a post and I replied. Point was it upset the OP as he was only 13 years old! It upset me as I had unknowingly upset a minor with one of my posts. He was a Moderator so I wrongly assumed he was an adult however no excuses damage was done and I take responsibility for that.
    When I read the original post in this thread it 'felt' one to avoid as there where so many unknowns and the post made me feel ill at ease? I ponder if the OP here is a youngster? If that be the case replies would be very different in the light of this information?

    My only contribution could be to again advise PJ to speak with the person in question or his teacher. This again though depends on age?

    How are you? I hope you are well? Very nice to chat again with you here.

    As always, bless,

    Mike


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    Richard Riehle

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Richard Riehle on Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:59 pm

    [quote="Hanon"]
    Stacey wrote:Hanon sensei -
    You have always been the voice or reason on the judo forum. You are a professional by nature and work. If we read the magnificent post authored by CK sensei it sums up the entire situation in spades.
    I don't desire a debate with the OP as I have over the years of cyber judo posting gained some small insight into 'reading' the content of a given post.

    Mike

    First. Mike does not refer to me as a "youngster." I am many years older than he.  Surprised Very Happy 

    I have, for my students, translated Jita Kyoei, as the equivalent of behaving with generosity with everyone in the dojo. Generosity is not gratuitously seeking revenge, using advanced techniques against a beginner, or showing-off how good your Judo is.

    It is my belief that anyone of a dan grade, from shodan onward, should be especially generous with lower grade partners, whether in randori, in shiai, or simply during an instructional lesson. Therefore, I advise my kuro-obi level students, when working with a lower grade student to not use any technique in randori unknown to that student. If that student only knows the first eight throws of the Gokyo, perfect your capabilities with those techniques by limiting yourself to them. Also, if the student is able to perform a technique, do not counter with some advanced technique -- especially a sutemi-waza technique -- if the student does not know that technique. In other words, use generosity towards the less experienced student to improve your own Judo fundamentals. A really good training tip for the advanced Judoka: use only those elementary techniques you need to improve-on yourself. If your ashi-waza is poor, perfect it in randori, but let the novice know what you are going to do ahead of time. That raises the bar for the personal challenge.

    During randori, I believe the advanced student should be taking as many falls as the lower-grade student. I was fortunate, in my earliest days of Judo, as a young teen learning how to do Judo, to have instructors who followed that model. They did not give away the throw. They made me work for it. Beginners are slow to fit-in. They need to learn to get faster. But most of all, they need to get each technique right. A senior Judoka with a lot of tournament experience can see the novice entering too slowly, but countering with ura-nage is not going to help that student learn.


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    Jonesy

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Jonesy on Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:32 pm

    RR - your theory is great, does it really work in a modern dojo? Too often I have seen Kyu grades - anything from about green belt to brown belt go berserk in randori - using uncontrolled force and wild aggression just to try and get a black belt to stumble. Also the attitude of stiff arming is to be found everywhere. Hardly anywhere does randori as it was intended to anymore. Everyone asks at the end "Did you beat <insert name> in randori tonight?" A real problem.


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    afulldeck

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by afulldeck on Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:34 am

    Jonesy wrote:RR - your theory is great, does it really work in a modern dojo?  Too often I have seen Kyu grades - anything from about green belt to brown belt go berserk in randori - using uncontrolled force and wild aggression just to try and get a black belt to stumble.  Also the attitude of stiff arming is to be found everywhere.  Hardly anywhere does randori as it was intended to anymore.  Everyone asks at the end "Did you beat <insert name> in randori tonight?"  A real problem.


    I agree that this is a real problem. From my perspective, this problem has a strong age component (18-30) and seems to be a carry over from bjj. Rarely, do I see this as a problem with the U18 crowd, especially if they grew up in Judo. The over 35 crowd seems to be fairly generous in their approach to randori as well, although they do stiff arm (out of fear of being thrown). Both of these groups are much easier to improve their judo with some focused coaching.

    Folks who become Judoka between the ages of 18-30 seem to believe randori leads to some sort of god like status with all the accompanying accoutrements of money, fame and women. This group is extremely difficult to coach. Being too generous to this group just feeds the fire of aggression.


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