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    Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

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    afja_lm139

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by afja_lm139 on Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:04 am

    Mind you, this is only an observation and my opinion, so don’t get your panties in a tight grip around you brain; but when a lesser experienced Judoka uses brute force to overcome some higher ranking person they should get dumped a lot to teach them a lesson. Back in the twilight time when as a young inexperienced Judoka I would intentionally pick the bad of the bad black belt in the dojo to randori with. Wonder why?  Question 

    Hanon

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Hanon on Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:07 am

    Shiai, randori, yaku soku geiko, nage komi, uchikomi et al and so forth are TOOLS toward achieving certain goals in judo. NON of them are a complete item that stands on its own.

    Forgive me being this forum parrot. As long as we have a miss use of championships due to a sport ethic in judo we will have this imbalance in HOW we learn it.

    OF COURSE randori is used as shiai..........WHO needs randori if the goal is to win? Who needs the gokyo, kata, nage komi, yako soku geiko, ukemi blah bloody blah IF the only goal and ambition of judoka is to WIN?

    Nothing wrong with winning if it is seen in the light it is meant to be seen in terms of judo (a deep philosophical topic). Judo today is a pure sport, I dare even venture to write that true sport has been dead for many decades or sport as kano Shihan new it.

    If I wanted to teach people how to win in shiai the last things I would be doing is teaching what I taught and teach in judo. Judo takes a life time to learn and by the time we understand some of it its to bloody late to put that knowledge into practice as our bodies just cannot function to that level at that age. Judo is cruel. Sad 

    Randori is a complete waste of time for the Olympic minded judoka, as are most of the other elements mentioned above. Athletic ability is paramount so time spent in gyms pumping iron along with diet and 'fighting' on the mat is what we need and tons of it.
    How to get a partner on the floor for a score became the only consideration when Koka and yuko where introduced. Get that knock down and you have won an Olympic medal.........True BUT its simply not judo and please don't shoot the messenger.

    Worse, with the yearly intervention of the IJF etc we see judo championships for kata, judo show. SOME new members to judo concentrate solely on kata, There are now kata judo clubs! There are now judo show seminars and courses!

    AS long as we abuse kodokan judo and make judo a buffet of our choice we will continue to see the demise of judo. Have a look at this very forum. There are threads on kata, randori, the gokyo even ukemi where the OP is asking are they necessary? IN truth non of them are necessary but then a judo gi and tatami are not necessary nor any rules............Point is how far are we going to go in destroying judo and when is this going to stop?

    Judo is for life, its an honour and privilege to practice it and we have no rights only duties, most of those duties are to each other.

    Let you get back to the thread.

    Mike


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    jkw

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by jkw on Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:05 am

    Hanon wrote:
    Randori is a complete waste of time for the Olympic minded judoka, as are most of the other elements mentioned above.

    I understand that your rhetorical style has an emphasis on hyperbole, but surely almost all elite judoka engage in randori, not because it is a complete waste of time, but - at least to some degree - for development of skills and ability?

    For example, you can find youtube clips of many national team training sessions from a number of countries engaging in randori.

    jkw

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by jkw on Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:23 am

    Hanon wrote:
    I think you will find the maxim "MUTUAL welfare and benefit" is what needs to be learned and internalised by ALL, on and off the tatami. NO ONE in a dojo is more important than any other person. In randori it is the duty and educational responsibility for both partners to look after each other.

    No disagreement from me on this.

    But in my experience, judo is done by people who have all sorts of characteristics and traits, regardless of their judo ability. I simply have not observed much of a correlation between quality of character and quality of judo.

    Given this, I don't think it is fruitful for anyone to assume another judoka - dan grade or not - will act or behave with much of an ethical basis. It is better to test and observe if this is the case, then structure your interactions accordingly.

    For example, a low kyu grade practising randori with high level competitors training for competition could have either an exhilarating or tragic experience - it depends on the individuals, the attitude of the dojo, the instructors and so on.

    I think it is good to learn how to take responsibility for your own safety, commensurate with your experience in judo and not assume that everyone will behave as they are supposed to. It's also less disappointing.

    Hanon

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Hanon on Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:59 am

    Where are your teachers or sensei?

    It is the responsibility of the sensei to set the tone of the dojo in all respects. Sensei is the person who educates from day one.

    Randori is not shiai. We can debate this 'till the cows come home. In randori there is no winner nor looser. It is practice just as uchikomi or kata.
    You only need a referee when we shiai.

    Shiai is the time to role the sleeves up and fight...........WHO sets the tone for shiai and randori? The sensei or teacher NOT the pupils.

    If a judoka treats shiai like randori the sensei may step in and point this out, read that as getting a verbal kick in the ass. Same with randori. I used to walk around telling pupils to calm down it was not shiai. I set the tone, I took responsibility not my pupils. In my younger days I was invariably the one asked to randori as the pupils thought it great to launch me all over the place especially the kids who used to laugh at the sight of me playing dead on the tatami, well, they thought I was playing dead!

    Shiai with the adults, they new it was not randori!

    Mike


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:10 am

    jkw wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    Randori is a complete waste of time for the Olympic minded judoka, as are most of the other elements mentioned above.

    I understand that your rhetorical style has an emphasis on hyperbole, but surely almost all elite judoka engage in randori, not because it is a complete waste of time, but - at least to some degree - for development of skills and ability?

    For example, you can find youtube clips of many national team training sessions from a number of countries engaging in randori.

    What Hanon means is what they are doing is not randori, and he is right. National squads don't do randori. They say they do, but what they are doing is sequential competitions in their dôjô and with a referee. That is not at all randori. Why do you thing the injury rate is so high in national squad 'randori' ? How many jûdôka are there not each time there is a world championships or European Championships or Olympics that they have to cancel or their participation is in doubt due to injury, serious injury such as a ripped ACL, shoulder injuries, etc ? In fact quite incredible if we know that Kanô remove dangerous techniques from jûdô that it could be practised safely. Have a look at old Kôdôkan pictures from the 1920s and 1930s. People are doing randori on a tatami where there are almost 2 people per square meter. Can you imagine that ? Not with the kind of "shiai-randori" national teams do !!

    Not a single jûdôka in today's national squad sessions could care any less about your evolution or injuries. Have you trained in national squads ?  My God, I have known people who would get angry if you got injured because that meant they might lose a minute by having to find another partner and are not being able to smash you any further. It is all force, athletic ability, and testosterone-driven, and still totally different from what it is in Japan, I mean among the Japanese, obviously not when you have busload of foreigners being dropped off at Tôkai, because en mass their approach may seduce the Japanese also in deviating from randori and getting dragged into these mini-competitions. National squad training sessions are neither friendly nor educational. However, sometimes there might be an exceptional jûdôka there who still instinctively knows what randori is and if instead of starting shiai against him you start randori, it will be randori, but those are rarities. During training sessions with people like Iatskevitch or Laats it was always randori and never competition, but perhaps it is that natural understanding which is part of why they are such exceptional and technical jûdôka. It's usually the really, really good jûdôka who still do and like to do randori, and with really good I don't mean medal winners, as you don't need to be a really really good jûdôka in order to win medals, just someone who in athletic prowess exceeds that of most others.


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    PJ

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by PJ on Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:11 am

    Hanon wrote:
    jkw wrote:
    PJ wrote:As the person who skimread my post and then made an inappropriate response kind of pointed out in a weird way, black belts are supposed to help lower grades and encourage them

    That's not how I read DougNZ's post - dan-grades are not "supposed" to help lower grades and encourage them. Some do and some don't - but it's not any kind of requirement. Some dan-grades should actively be avoided by lower grades - it's all part of the reality of judo.

    I think you will find the maxim "MUTUAL welfare and benefit" is what needs to be learned and internalised by ALL, on and off the tatami. NO ONE in a dojo is more important than any other person. In randori it is the duty and educational responsibility for both partners to look after each other.

    Of course the more we see judo slid into the abyss of a sport culture the less this education is taught as winning is THE point hence situations like the one being debated here.

    It still puzzles the hell out of me when I read posts where judoka still seem to identify randori in terms of winning and losing when that is not even part of the equation?
    The only winner or looser in randori is the uneducated uncontrolled ego.

    Another classic reason judo has not travelled well. WE in the West are just so competitive we often cut our noses off to spite our face. In day to day life I am still capable of doing such immature things  Embarassed 

    I also ponder if some of the posters here have teachers on the tatami? From many of the posts it is painfully obvious pupils don't interact with them?

    I like to think that in my past dojo a pupil would not even need to ask for help as I saw it as my responsibility to identify the pupils difficulties as they arose and intervene. SOME of the dojo these days 'appear' void of any supervision? Perhaps again the sign of a sport mentality, I don't know?

    Mike

    Stacey wrote:Hanon sensei - I think part of the reason the OP is airing his grievances on an international board is because he doesn't understand the basics of how things work in a dojo.  It's why white belts in the West regularly reach for white belts for everything instead of going up to a black belt, or discussing issues with the sensei or instructor - it's the norm of other Western education.  You try to suss things out yourself without bothering "higher ups".

    The OP has not quieted down far enough and long enough to really comprehend how judo is taught in the dojo, and how that differs from his normative learning experience.  At least he's asking his questions here, in a place he considers much less formal, than just going off on his own and learning everything from the internet, and then thinking he actually knows something.  At least he's doing randori with dan grades, so the only thing hurt is his ego until he realizes it's really not about ego - ego just gets in the way until the student learns to control it and not insert it into everything.

    I think, as you appear to appreciate Hanon's opinions, you shuld read the above quote, particularly the 'mutual welfare and benefit' part. As for "not quieting down" - in terms of the board, I have been letting people have their say and not replied again until now, and in terms of judo, again I'd appreciate it if you didnt skimread or make assumptions about me. Once again (and I will try not to be rude but I really do not appreciate having to repeat myself when my original post wasn't that long and it was in paragraphs), I had done judo for years before getting back into it, I know how dodjo's work (to an extent - it's rather ignorant to assume all are the same) as I have been to different ones - in judo, karate, and taekwondo (though taekwondo is Korean so 'dojo' would be the wrong word).

    So once again, and do read this time: This has nothing to do with my ego, as pointed out clearly in at least TWO posts now. I have explained, AT LEAST TWICE, that I have no problem with being thrown around like a ragdoll - if this was about ego don't you think I would be bothered by that? I've been totally battered when attacked (by muggers etc. and in school, kids who just wanted to fight) and never felt a bruised ego over it - you win some, you lose many, it doesn't matter. This is about the way the other guy was BEHAVING when he was engaging in randori with me. As pointed out, he has recently got his blackbelt and whilst I am totally comfortable with him being proud of it, it appears to have completely gone to his head to the point where he finds it acceptable to be patronising on virtually every single attempt at a throw despite the fact he found it difficult to throw me at the most recent lesson which was a massive improvement on the previous one.

    afulldeck wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:RR - your theory is great, does it really work in a modern dojo?  Too often I have seen Kyu grades - anything from about green belt to brown belt go berserk in randori - using uncontrolled force and wild aggression just to try and get a black belt to stumble.  Also the attitude of stiff arming is to be found everywhere.  Hardly anywhere does randori as it was intended to anymore.  Everyone asks at the end "Did you beat <insert name> in randori tonight?"  A real problem.

    I agree that this is a real problem. From my perspective, this problem has a strong age component (18-30) and seems to be a carry over from bjj. Rarely, do I see this as a problem with the U18 crowd, especially if they grew up in Judo. The over 35 crowd seems to be fairly generous in their approach to randori as well, although they do stiff arm (out of fear of being thrown).  Both of these groups are much easier to improve their judo with some focused coaching.

    Folks who become Judoka between the ages of 18-30 seem to believe randori leads to some sort of god like status with all the accompanying accoutrements of money, fame and women.  This group is extremely difficult to coach. Being too generous to this group just feeds the fire of aggression.

    Nobody (literally nobody - not a single person) asks that in my club. In general, nobody cares, as randori is, as you know, not about that. It was only the one blackbelt I had an issue with and it was to do with the way he was behaving. I had been floored loads of times until the most recent lesson and it wasn't an issue.

    As for those who wanted to know my age, sorry but I find that irrelevant and likely to elicit responses based on age prejudice rather than on th facts of the situation. I simply asked a question and in certain posts I have received rudeness in response - there was absolutely no need to be rude.

    But again, thank you to those (the majority of people who posted here) who actually read my post properly and gave constructive, non-judgemental responses. You have answered my question more than adequately.
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    Neil G

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Neil G on Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:32 am

    PJ wrote:[snip] I'd appreciate it if you didnt skimread or make assumptions about me. [snip] I had done judo for years before getting back into it, I know how dodjo's work (to an extent - it's rather ignorant to assume all are the same) as I have been to different ones - in judo, karate, and taekwondo (though taekwondo is Korean so 'dojo' would be the wrong word).
    Just so I am not accused of "skimming", I present to you a direct quote from your original post:
    PJ wrote:[snip]So my question is, if I re-learn enough stuff by next lesson (about a week from now), say from the internet etc., and learn enough new stuff the same way, would it be possible to floor him just once to teach him a lesson in humility, or would he see everything coming because of his grade?
    This question tells me that you do not, in fact know how a dojo works or for that matter have much grasp yet of judo or budo in general. Your knee-jerk reaction to criticism in this thread also tells me that you are the sort of person who takes easy offence, so I suspect the story we are getting here is rather one-sided.

    Having said that, there are definitely jerks in the dojo and this guy may be one of them. You won't be teaching him any "lessons" soon, so just try to learn from him both technically and in terms of improving your own ability to take criticism without exhibiting abnormal levels of butthurt.
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    JudoStu

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by JudoStu on Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:15 am

    I’d like to know how exactly he was patronising you. What did he actually say or do that made you feel patronised?
    With regards to your previous Judo experience, how many years is years? What grade were you?
    The reason I ask is if you were previously a brown belt then it’s possible you could get back to where you were previously rather quickly and be able to throw a shodan in randori the odd time.
    If you were only a white or yellow belt then you need to get your head down and train hard for a long time before you can hope to throw a Shodan who does not want to be thrown.


    Hanon

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Hanon on Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:30 am

    Hi PJ,

    May I make a suggestion? You accuse others of only "skim-reading" your posts. Perhaps, I don't know, it may be you who skim-reads our replies?

    Many members have offered you good solid, sound advice based on very little information. Again, with respect, I suggest your expectations are just too high in terms of expecting an exact reply. The post made by CK sensei does a simply superb job of addressing your possible situation as far as humanly possible using this media. Don't be so hard on us. I am sure you will continue to be supported with answers if we are able to fully understand your questions.

    It is normal for a new member here or any other group to find his or her way around. You will find a rather decent bunch here who will offer you support if they truly understand exactly what you seek. Please also accept the limitations of a cyber forum. WE can only asses any other poster by the quality of their posts. Action-reaction.

    Perhaps you may offer more information about your circumstances so we are better equipped to pass the advice you need?

    Sincerely,

    Mike



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    Stacey

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Stacey on Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:02 pm

    PJ: as to your posts - res ipsa loquitur. You might want to pay attention to what folks have to say. Many of us have more time in the dojo than you have on the planet. Settle down. Read what folks have to say. Ask questions if you need to. Quit taking offense to every little thing. We're a bit more casual here than we were over at the JF, but you might want to actually pay attention before there are too many complaints.

    Now, answer my questions if you will - did you do the YouTube thing? Were you actually able to "teach" the shodan something? Did you bother to actually talk with the guy? Or are you silently nursing your hurt?

    Gus

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Gus on Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:26 am

    Stacey wrote: Settle down.

    LOL - thats going to go down well  Very Happy  Only kidding - Jesus I forgot how much internet forums can suck - the bliss of not having a connection at home anymore - hope you are well Stacey and the rest of you  Wink 

    Anatol

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Anatol on Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:04 am

    I did Judo from 12 to 14 and got a blue belt.


    .


    Last edited by Anatol on Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

    PJ

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by PJ on Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:39 pm

    Anatol wrote:I did Judo from 12 to 14 and got a blue belt.

    Then I did a second try with Judo at the age of 45 and started after one month of practice in team competitions in Switzerland. My opponents were some brown Belts but mostly Blackbelts (half of the age of mine) up to Go Dan (who is four years younger then me.). Did about 30 shiai, lost ten and won 20. So did I teach the Blackbelts a lesson? Some - because they underestimated me because of age und belt and they wanted to win so desperatly. I for my self had never the feeling, that I want to teach a Blackbelt a lesson because I never identified my own Judo with a certain grade. What I loved to learn from Judo was the inner principle "maximum efficiency with minimum of effort", the open mind, which acts and reacts properly, the feeling of balance, the rotation like a ball, the breathing deep down, the rooted and fast feets, the throw in a combination of two bodies, the newaza with a minimum of force but a maximum of controll and the fun and friendship in a Dojo and the possibility of visiting other Dojos and make new friends. Judo is really a language, spoken from 6 year old Kids up to 75 (like my sensei) and older.

    But yes - I enjoyed  it a lot to win against Shodan, Nidan und Sandan (and one Godan) in serious competition as a Blue Belt and later as a Brown Belt ;-)

    .

    As evidenced by the most recent replies to me above (the Latin quote, by the way, means 'the thing itself speaks'), some of the people here are immature and just want to get into an argument. I think it's pretty silly to come to a judo forum for that reason especially if you've been around a long time. But saying that, I've seen moderators on other forums kick perfectly nice people off (despite protestations from numerous members) and get away with it because they were around a long time. Somehow the myth of age being relevant to maturity has changed to the myth of being around a place a long time meaning you can never be wrong and never be rude and must always be right.

    So thank you for your detailed response. You are clearly one of the people who did read my original post properly, didn't make assumptions (such as assuming that I was a kid or that I was an old man, as others have done, neither of which I will confirm nor deny), although it has only ever been this particularly black belt that caused me to react like this due to his disgusting attitude (an attitude shared, at least in the part of arrogance, by some people who have replied on here sadly - I genuinely hope none of them run clubs) and behaviour.

    Although, as previously mentioned, my question has now been answered, you have given a very detailed response so thank you very much. You seem to have as much passion for judo as I do, if not more Smile

    Anatol

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Anatol on Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:20 pm

    Thank you.


    Last edited by Anatol on Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Hanon

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Hanon on Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:44 pm

    Anatol wrote:I did Judo from 12 to 14 and got a blue belt.

    Then I did a second try with Judo at the age of 45 and started after one month of practice in team competitions in Switzerland. My opponents were some brown Belts but mostly Blackbelts (half of the age of mine) up to Go Dan (who is four years younger then me.). Did about 30 shiai, lost ten and won 20. So did I teach the Blackbelts a lesson? Some - because they underestimated me because of age und belt and they wanted to win so desperatly. I for my self had never the feeling, that I want to teach a Blackbelt a lesson because I never identified my own Judo with a certain grade. What I loved to learn from Judo was the inner principle "maximum efficiency with minimum of effort", the open mind, which acts and reacts properly, the feeling of balance, the rotation like a ball, the breathing deep down, the rooted and fast feets, the throw in a combination of two bodies, the newaza with a minimum of force but a maximum of controll and the fun and friendship in a Dojo and the possibility of visiting other Dojos and make new friends. Judo is really a language, spoken from 6 year old Kids up to 75 (like my sensei) and older.

    But yes - I enjoyed  it a lot to win against Shodan, Nidan und Sandan (and one Godan) in serious competition as a Blue Belt and later as a Brown Belt ;-)

    .

    After one months practice at 45 years of age you where entered for a championship were you had 30 shobu and won 20 against sho, ni, san and a go dan?  Shocked 
    I see you practiced for 24 months as a child, non the less your achievement is more than just outstanding its incredible. Who on earth is your sensei?

    I was going to write 'very well done' but under the circumstances feel that rather inadequate.

    Welcome to your judo forum. I look forward to your future contributions with great interest.

    Regards,

    Mike


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    PJ

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by PJ on Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:10 pm

    Anatol wrote:Hi PJ

    I know I'm late for this discussion but just a few points to your original question

    So my question is, if I re-learn enough stuff by next lesson (about a week from now), say from the internet etc., and learn enough new stuff the same way, would it be possible to floor him just once to teach him a lesson in humility, or would he see everything coming because of his grade?

    I would concentrate on the principles like an upright Bodyposition, the Moving of the Body (tai sabaki), the moving of the feets (tsugi ashi), the body controll from the middle (hara), the deep breathing and that your arms are not stiff and they are working together. If you do the principles, you can attack and defend properly because you have a "home base" and a lot more confidence.

    So I can give you no "dirty tricks" but maybe a video to study the principles, but if you understand the principles, you can find "your dirty tricks" but then they are not "dirty" and no "tricks" anymore and on a more sophisticated level they are even not "yours".

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsn7OePls3g

    I wish you a lot of fun in learning and improving to find your "Do".


    .


    Constructive answers appreciated, late or not Smile

    Those sound like good principles.
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    Jihef

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Jihef on Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:18 am

    DougNZ wrote:Randori is not about beating someone.  Nor is judo, for that matter.  Judo is about beating yourself.  And it seems that you have a worthy opponent.  
    Classic !
    +1
     Very Happy 
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    JudoStu

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by JudoStu on Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:23 am

    PJ wrote:
    Anatol wrote:I did Judo from 12 to 14 and got a blue belt.

    Then I did a second try with Judo at the age of 45 and started after one month of practice in team competitions in Switzerland. My opponents were some brown Belts but mostly Blackbelts (half of the age of mine) up to Go Dan (who is four years younger then me.). Did about 30 shiai, lost ten and won 20. So did I teach the Blackbelts a lesson? Some - because they underestimated me because of age und belt and they wanted to win so desperatly. I for my self had never the feeling, that I want to teach a Blackbelt a lesson because I never identified my own Judo with a certain grade. What I loved to learn from Judo was the inner principle "maximum efficiency with minimum of effort", the open mind, which acts and reacts properly, the feeling of balance, the rotation like a ball, the breathing deep down, the rooted and fast feets, the throw in a combination of two bodies, the newaza with a minimum of force but a maximum of controll and the fun and friendship in a Dojo and the possibility of visiting other Dojos and make new friends. Judo is really a language, spoken from 6 year old Kids up to 75 (like my sensei) and older.

    But yes - I enjoyed  it a lot to win against Shodan, Nidan und Sandan (and one Godan) in serious competition as a Blue Belt and later as a Brown Belt ;-)

    .

    As evidenced by the most recent replies to me above (the Latin quote, by the way, means 'the thing itself speaks'), some of the people here are immature and just want to get into an argument. I think it's pretty silly to come to a judo forum for that reason especially if you've been around a long time. But saying that, I've seen moderators on other forums kick perfectly nice people off (despite protestations from numerous members) and get away with it  because they were around a long time. Somehow the myth of age being relevant to maturity has changed to the myth of being around a place a long time meaning you can never be wrong and never be rude and must always be right.

    So thank you for your detailed response. You are clearly one of the people who did read my original post properly, didn't make assumptions (such as assuming that I was a kid or that I was an old man, as others have done, neither of which I will confirm nor deny), although it has only ever been this particularly black belt that caused me to react like this due to his disgusting attitude (an attitude shared, at least in the part of arrogance, by some people who have replied on here sadly - I genuinely hope none of them run clubs) and behaviour.

    Although, as previously mentioned, my question has now been answered, you have given a very detailed response so thank you very much. You seem to have as much passion for judo as I do, if not more Smile

    You seem to have ignored a lot of the responses people have taken the time to write, mine included.

    avatar
    judoratt

    Posts : 309
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    Age : 60
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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by judoratt on Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:50 am

    Anyone think we have spent enough time with this question?  Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes The OP is obviously not listening to some great advice.  Shocked Shocked 

    PJ

    Posts : 16
    Join date : 2014-03-02

    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by PJ on Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:01 am

    JudoStu wrote:
    PJ wrote:
    Anatol wrote:I did Judo from 12 to 14 and got a blue belt.

    Then I did a second try with Judo at the age of 45 and started after one month of practice in team competitions in Switzerland. My opponents were some brown Belts but mostly Blackbelts (half of the age of mine) up to Go Dan (who is four years younger then me.). Did about 30 shiai, lost ten and won 20. So did I teach the Blackbelts a lesson? Some - because they underestimated me because of age und belt and they wanted to win so desperatly. I for my self had never the feeling, that I want to teach a Blackbelt a lesson because I never identified my own Judo with a certain grade. What I loved to learn from Judo was the inner principle "maximum efficiency with minimum of effort", the open mind, which acts and reacts properly, the feeling of balance, the rotation like a ball, the breathing deep down, the rooted and fast feets, the throw in a combination of two bodies, the newaza with a minimum of force but a maximum of controll and the fun and friendship in a Dojo and the possibility of visiting other Dojos and make new friends. Judo is really a language, spoken from 6 year old Kids up to 75 (like my sensei) and older.

    But yes - I enjoyed  it a lot to win against Shodan, Nidan und Sandan (and one Godan) in serious competition as a Blue Belt and later as a Brown Belt ;-)

    .

    As evidenced by the most recent replies to me above (the Latin quote, by the way, means 'the thing itself speaks'), some of the people here are immature and just want to get into an argument. I think it's pretty silly to come to a judo forum for that reason especially if you've been around a long time. But saying that, I've seen moderators on other forums kick perfectly nice people off (despite protestations from numerous members) and get away with it  because they were around a long time. Somehow the myth of age being relevant to maturity has changed to the myth of being around a place a long time meaning you can never be wrong and never be rude and must always be right.

    So thank you for your detailed response. You are clearly one of the people who did read my original post properly, didn't make assumptions (such as assuming that I was a kid or that I was an old man, as others have done, neither of which I will confirm nor deny), although it has only ever been this particularly black belt that caused me to react like this due to his disgusting attitude (an attitude shared, at least in the part of arrogance, by some people who have replied on here sadly - I genuinely hope none of them run clubs) and behaviour.

    Although, as previously mentioned, my question has now been answered, you have given a very detailed response so thank you very much. You seem to have as much passion for judo as I do, if not more Smile

    You seem to have ignored a lot of the responses people have taken the time to write, mine included.

    I've read every single post actually (yours included) and thanked people for their answers even though I posted to say the answer had been provided a long time ago.

    judoratt wrote:Anyone think we have spent enough time with this question?  Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes The OP is obviously not listening to some great advice.  Shocked Shocked 

    Because I haven't quoted every single answer, or because I haven't lowered myself to insults in response to the minority of rude posts? I've said twice now that my question has been answered, I've responded to specific points about randori not being about "beating someone" and specific points about fighting with black belts, etc., and I've thanked people for their answers. I've not used a message forum for some time so if there's something wrong in all of that, then apologies.

    still learning

    Posts : 125
    Join date : 2013-01-20
    Age : 48
    Location : South Wales UK

    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by still learning on Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:05 am

    Jihef wrote:
    DougNZ wrote:Randori is not about beating someone.  Nor is judo, for that matter.  Judo is about beating yourself.  And it seems that you have a worthy opponent.  
    Classic !
    +1
     Very Happy 

    That is the best quote I've read on this forum.

    Anatol

    Posts : 190
    Join date : 2014-01-20

    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by Anatol on Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:41 am

    Maybe.


    Last edited by Anatol on Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

    medo

    Posts : 276
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by medo on Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:00 pm

    PJ reminds me off WB wandering if you agree or praise everything is OK. Failure to do so and you got a written slap around the face  Cool 

    Both PJ and anatol's postings remind me of when I was around 25yrs, one of my first encounters with the BJC I was on the randori mat having thrown multiple times with my tokui waza, at that time was working on a Neil Adams explosive uchimata (hit rate was low as still working on it) the lady dan grade stopped me and said "thats not how to do uchimata", well red rag to a bull in my youth so I offered my arms to take hold and said show me "I can see from Uki's position I said", she hesitated but went on to show me a rolling type, Ok I said "throw me" I was still bolt up right no kuzushi no nothing, ended up throwing myself, stood up thanked her and just carried on. Move on 25yrs and I happened to be doing Katame no kata with one of my pupils, over she came to correct a technique again "show me" I just dismissed her, bad of me I know but it was day two and day one she was happy to tell me of how many gold medals she had won in the world masters tourniments, me being me had googled up her results that night, no one to fight in her age/weight bracket so gold without a fight, she had to move down two age groups to get a fight and was thrown for ippon every fight this had happened for five consecutive years. Gold medalist but never won a fight!

    Anatol I'm guessing you have a high strength to weight mass either that or you are very gifted. Judo is a doing art the more you do the better you get...
    unless the opposition is such as above.


    avatar
    judoratt

    Posts : 309
    Join date : 2012-12-30
    Age : 60
    Location : Seattle

    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

    Post by judoratt on Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:23 pm

    medo wrote:PJ reminds me off WB wandering if you agree or praise everything is OK. Failure to do so and you got a written slap around the face  Cool 

    Both PJ and anatol's postings remind me of when I was around 25yrs, one of my first encounters with the BJC I was on the randori mat having thrown multiple times with my tokui waza, at that time was working on a Neil Adams explosive uchimata (hit rate was low as still working on it) the lady dan grade stopped me and said "thats not how to do uchimata", well red rag to a bull in my youth so I offered my arms to take hold and said show me "I can see from Uki's position I said", she hesitated but went on to show me a rolling type, Ok I said "throw me" I was still bolt up right no kuzushi no nothing, ended up throwing myself, stood up thanked her and just carried on.  Move on 25yrs and I happened to be doing Katame no kata with one of my pupils, over she came to correct a technique again "show me" I just dismissed her, bad of me I know but it was day two and day one she was happy to tell me of how many gold medals she had won in the world masters tourniments, me being me had googled up her results that night, no one to fight in her age/weight bracket so gold without a fight, she had to move down two age groups to get a fight and was thrown for ippon every fight this had happened for five consecutive years. Gold medalist but never won a fight!

    Anatol I'm guessing you have a high strength to weight mass either that or you are very gifted. Judo is a doing art the more you do the better you get...
    unless the opposition is such as above


               

    Well said. Cool Cool 

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    Re: Is it possible for a lower grade to "teach a black belt a lesson"?

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