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    Do you reckon you could learn the self-defence katas from videos?

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    PJ

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    Do you reckon you could learn the self-defence katas from videos?

    Post by PJ on Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:30 am

    And would they be any use in a self-defence situation?

    My club doesn't teach such katas (it's BJA so it's sport-based). But without proper instruction (and correction), do you reckon watching videos would be any use? I know they don't teach whether your techniques work against resistance but then to my knowedge judo has never included board breaking or punchbags anyway so many techiques don't practice against resistance even in the katas (chops, punched, etc.).

    I know it wouldn't be as good as proper instruction but would videos teach you anything or would it end up like Daniel-san off Karate Kid (for those confused, I mean the original, not the Jackie Chan one) ended up before he got taught properly?
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    BillC

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    Re: Do you reckon you could learn the self-defence katas from videos?

    Post by BillC on Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:34 am

    No.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    PJ

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    Re: Do you reckon you could learn the self-defence katas from videos?

    Post by PJ on Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:53 am

    BillC wrote:No.

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    BillC

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    Re: Do you reckon you could learn the self-defence katas from videos?

    Post by BillC on Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:48 am

    Not sure where you are located ... but look for camps and clinics to at least get started ... take a partner with you.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Do you reckon you could learn the self-defence katas from videos?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:13 am

    PJ wrote:And would they be any use in a self-defence situation?

    My club doesn't teach such katas (it's BJA so it's sport-based). But without proper instruction (and correction), do you reckon watching videos would be any use? I know they don't teach whether your techniques work against resistance but then to my knowedge judo has never included board breaking or punchbags anyway so many techiques don't practice against resistance even in the katas (chops, punched, etc.).

    I know it wouldn't be as good as proper instruction but would videos teach you anything or would it end up like Daniel-san off Karate Kid (for those confused, I mean the original, not the Jackie Chan one) ended up before he got taught properly?

    For us in order to help a poster in the best possible way with his questions, it might be helpful to have an idea about his age. You don't have to tell us if you don't want to, but it might be helpful if we would know how old you are.


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    JudoStu

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    Re: Do you reckon you could learn the self-defence katas from videos?

    Post by JudoStu on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:39 am

    PJ wrote:And would they be any use in a self-defence situation?

    My club doesn't teach such katas (it's BJA so it's sport-based). But without proper instruction (and correction), do you reckon watching videos would be any use? I know they don't teach whether your techniques work against resistance but then to my knowedge judo has never included board breaking or punchbags anyway so many techiques don't practice against resistance even in the katas (chops, punched, etc.).

    I know it wouldn't be as good as proper instruction but would videos teach you anything or would it end up like Daniel-san off Karate Kid (for those confused, I mean the original, not the Jackie Chan one) ended up before he got taught properly?

    BJA clubs should be teaching Kata as its now a compulsary part of grading for 1st kyu.
    You can certainly use video's as a tool so that you can remember which order each technique comes in the kata but only if you have already been shown the technique first in class.


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    DougNZ

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    Re: Do you reckon you could learn the self-defence katas from videos?

    Post by DougNZ on Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:20 am

    In my experience, learning kata for self defence, whether by video or under an instructor, yields poor results. I studied kata-based ju-jitsu for about 15 years and became good at kata-based ju-jitsu but not very good at fighting. To become good at self defence, one must learn how to fight. I believe that takes a different approach and mind-set. Judo is useful to becoming good at fighting because, as well as having some great techniques, it develops reactions and 'flow' through randori.
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    BillC

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    Re: Do you reckon you could learn the self-defence katas from videos?

    Post by BillC on Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:53 am

    DougNZ wrote:In my experience, learning kata for self defence, whether by video or under an instructor, yields poor results.  I studied kata-based ju-jitsu for about 15 years and became good at kata-based ju-jitsu but not very good at fighting.  To become good at self defence, one must learn how to fight.  I believe that takes a different approach and mind-set.  Judo is useful to becoming good at fighting because, as well as having some great techniques, it develops reactions and 'flow' through randori.  

    Maybe it's just a matter of word choice. I don't like that word "fight" because it is so often misapplied. I tend to save that word for situations where someone is going to be severely injured or killed, and someone else might barely walk away. I avoid using it when referring to judo tournament matches, I probably should think the same way even about an MMA contest ... they are not really fights, they have rules, referees, a clock, etc.

    Where we probably agree is that a long time in judo makes one a whole lot less jumpy about physical aggression. Further, one is less likely to break out in tears and call for Mama if one gets shoved around. Pain threshold ... way up there for most long time judoka. I'd also agree that the judo kata are incomplete, a point of departure for further study and practice ... if one can find it.

    But I don't totally agree that the self defense kata, or genuine jujutsu study in general is less than useful in self defense. They were promoted and practiced by people who knew real fighting well. I don't always get involved in physical altercations, but when I do I have always reacted with things done in kata (or aiki practice). Most of these were years ago, when one works in bars as a college student these things happen. Probably what I did is partly training, partly because it makes sense to do certain things ... like get out of the way of someone punching or kicking, or jamming into them to grab them and get behind them, etc. ... armed and unarmed challenges the same ... enough time studying kumikata for competition tends to cover what is taught in the judo kata. Point is, if the randori and kata are well taught and the crossover understood by the student, most things never get a chance to escalate into a fight. Most fights are, excuse the language, bullshit by drunks.

    There is a legal aspect that fits well with judo too I think.

    In most places on the planet, if one puts up one's dukes and challenges someone, one committing a crime. Also in may places, if one responds to such a challenge with a similar pose one is also committing a crime. "Let's go outside and finish this" is frowned upon by law enforcement in most places where rule of law exists. So yeah, if this is one's thing take lots of boxing lessons ... and get a good lawyer.

    But in judo the philosophy shown in the kata is twofold in this regard. First, we practice sometimes as if the attack is a surprise. In others, we practice as if we are waiting for the last moment not to resort to fisticuffs, we are trying to avoid them. So the hands are not in some kind of boxing or karate pose, but relaxed and at our sides in a confident but non-confrontational pose.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    DougNZ

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    Re: Do you reckon you could learn the self-defence katas from videos?

    Post by DougNZ on Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:16 am

    I define fighting as surviving a physical encounter.  We learn to fight to survive but we also learn how to fight within the realms of reasonable force, too.  We have nasty moves and we have 'brother-in-law' moves.

    I guess I get frustrated with theoretical self defence (and I'm not saying that is what you are, Bill).  I have trained in traditional ju-jitsu and I have trained in fighting ju-jitsu, so I know a little bit about the differences between the two.  Where traditional ju-jitsu falls down is where some punk grabs you by the shirt front and you try to apply clothes release-hit to neck-osotogari-yokoshihogatame-kotegatame from out of the green belt and find it doesn't work as you have practiced.  Or just trying a kotegaeshi doesn't work.  Or you try to punch him and hit his forearm.

    What seems to work better is learning to control distance, finding safe(r) places to put oneself, negating uke's weapons as much as possible, and isolating parts of uke to attack with hits, strangles or takedowns.  This is, what I think Bill meant by "partly training, partly because it makes sense to do certain things".  The slight difference is that we train to do those certain things that may make sense.  This is possibly also the "crossover" that Bill refers to between kata and fighting - the tactical application.  This is an organic approach to learning but then fights and fighting are very difficult to define within structured frameworks.

    This is why I advise against video-based, kata-based self-defence.
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    BillC

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    Re: Do you reckon you could learn the self-defence katas from videos?

    Post by BillC on Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:04 pm

    DougNZ wrote:I define fighting as surviving a physical encounter.  We learn to fight to survive but we also learn how to fight within the realms of reasonable force, too.  We have nasty moves and we have 'brother-in-law' moves.

    I guess I get frustrated with theoretical self defence (and I'm not saying that is what you are, Bill).  I have trained in traditional ju-jitsu and I have trained in fighting ju-jitsu, so I know a little bit about the differences between the two.  Where traditional ju-jitsu falls down is where some punk grabs you by the shirt front and you try to apply clothes release-hit to neck-osotogari-yokoshihogatame-kotegatame from out of the green belt and find it doesn't work as you have practiced.  Or just trying a kotegaeshi doesn't work.  Or you try to punch him and hit his forearm.

    What seems to work better is learning to control distance, finding safe(r) places to put oneself, negating uke's weapons as much as possible, and isolating parts of uke to attack with hits, strangles or takedowns.  This is, what I think Bill meant by "partly training, partly because it makes sense to do certain things".  The slight difference is that we train to do those certain things that may make sense.  This is possibly also the "crossover" that Bill refers to between kata and fighting - the tactical application.  This is an organic approach to learning but then fights and fighting are very difficult to define within structured frameworks.

    This is why I advise against video-based, kata-based self-defence.

    We are probably agreeing more than we disagree for sure.

    I am far from an expert on self defense.  I have had students whose job it was to jump out of flying machines in the middle of the night and extract some very dangerous people from their homes.  I suspect another one signed up this evening.  Yep, they are experts.  But they still want to play judo, and they still do kata because even their system is not complete.  It fails in several respects ... for example the elusive and hard to describe feeling of being in "judo shape" which one gentleman felt was really helpful when someone really didn't want to go.

    We had a discussion a few weeks ago about the inadequacies of the Kodokan goshin jutsu.  But I think the smartest and most informed opinion collected from that discussion is that it is a point of departure, a beginning, an idea ... not a complete system.  So that it fails in some respects in not a surprise.

    P.S. ... I have a not-so-secret desire to have some of the locals whose day job includes the wearing of armor ... to have them study and perform the koshikinkata in their work clothes.  How cool would that be?


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

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