E-Judo

Judo network and forum


    Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Share
    avatar
    Jihef

    Posts : 169
    Join date : 2013-09-06
    Location : Brussels, Belgium

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by Jihef on Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:24 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Jihef wrote:
    BillC wrote:Edit:  Ten year olds are made largely of rubber and can be bounced on poor surfaces yet get up smiling.  But into and past the teen years this becomes a painful limitation.  Thus, not only is the average mat surface responsible for bad uchikomi, it is also responsible for "obiwaza" and the "sensei doesn't fall down" policy.
    Hmm, call me stupid, but… whaddaya mean by "obiwaza" ??

    Ref. this video from the women's division of my judo club just before practice:
    Knap…  Evil or Very Mad 
    avatar
    BillC

    Posts : 806
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Vista, California

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by BillC on Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:49 am

    Jihef wrote:Hmm, call me stupid, but… whaddaya mean by "obiwaza" ??

    I won't call you stupid, it's an esoteric term, a "zen" thing. It's a very specialized and focused training method used by dan grades to strengthen their thumbs by spending the entire practice leaning against the wall and pressing those thumbs behind the obi to the exclusion of any other exertion. This becomes even more challenging over the years as the gut increases is size and the forearm must support a certain amount of that visceral adipose tissue. Often, the practice is enhanced by shouting at children as the sole form of aerobic conditioning.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    GregW

    Posts : 103
    Join date : 2013-01-22
    Location : Norman, Oklahoma

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by GregW on Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:20 am

    I have wondered if I was committing a grave infraction of judo tradition by letting my students throw me. My old instructors used to have a policy that "when sensei gets thrown, practice is over." (I never knew if that meant that he'd be mad and stop practice or that playtime was over and he was going to kill us for throwing him.)

    Because we're a new club and most of my students are beginners, I often have to demonstrate how uke is supposed to fall as well as how tori is supposed to throw, for safety reasons. I figure, if they see me take the fall and survive it (since I'm "old") they'll believe that they can survive it too. I let them throw me also because I know I can protect myself and them in case they do it wrong. If I model being uke as well as tori, they come to realize that getting thrown is just a part of practicing judo and they work more cooperatively with their partners.

    DougNZ

    Posts : 399
    Join date : 2013-01-28

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by DougNZ on Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:30 am

    GregW wrote:I have wondered if I was committing a grave infraction of judo tradition by letting my students throw me.  My old instructors used to have a policy that "when sensei gets thrown, practice is over."  (I never knew if that meant that he'd be mad and stop practice or that playtime was over and he was going to kill us for throwing him.)  

    Because we're a new club and most of my students are beginners, I often have to demonstrate how uke is supposed to fall as well as how tori is supposed to throw, for safety reasons.  I figure, if they see me take the fall and survive it (since I'm "old") they'll believe that they can survive it too.  I let them throw me also because I know I can protect myself and them in case they do it wrong.  If I model being uke as well as tori, they come to realize that getting thrown is just a part of practicing judo and they work more cooperatively with their partners.

    I suggest you continue as you are going for as long as you can. You are setting a fine example.

    A sensei who shuts down practice if thrown has issues!
    avatar
    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 857
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:31 am

    GregW wrote:I have wondered if I was committing a grave infraction of judo tradition by letting my students throw me.  My old instructors used to have a policy that "when sensei gets thrown, practice is over."  (I never knew if that meant that he'd be mad and stop practice or that playtime was over and he was going to kill us for throwing him.)  

    GregW,

    I think the key phrase in your question is "I never knew if that meant that ..." (...)

    To some extent your question is not just about you but implies the same about your own sensei. Since we do not know who your sensei are, and if we did, we likely knew them less than that you knew them ... well, in that light it is probably wise for people to withhold judgment, as much of what we could or would say, would be grounded in speculation. Only your sensei, or those who knew him/well might know for sure what he/she meant.

    In the old days when the practice of dôjô yaburi still existed in Japan, challenging, dueling and beating a sensei of another branch or club often meant that indeed practice or the existence of the school was over, or the school or sensei might in response become your student. This is how many new ryû were created. Somewhat of a romanticized version of this can be seen in Bruce Lee's visit to the karate school in Fist of fury. But there are also romanticized jûdô examples, such as in Kurosawa's Jûdô Saga based on the figure of Saigô Shirô.

    So, it may be that your sensei was "tongue-in-chee" referring to that practice. In modern day gendai budô that have become entirely sportified, such as it the case with jûdô, it is obvious that as sensei get older they start withdrawing from randori or reach a point where likely their best students indeed can beat them, or where injuries take their toll to the extent that it is wise for the sensei to not wanting to test how far he/she can still go.

    In less sportified gendai budô like aikidô, you still do not normally see anyone throwing the sensei of what the sensei does "not working" no matter how "unrealistic" the thing he shows may be.

    In jûdô in modern days, people are evolved enough to understand positive things such as personal growth and humility in a sensei who would at old age participate and lose in kôdansha shiai or master's tournaments. But traditionally, when one does not think in terms of sports, I think it is different, and the sensei 'losing' is perceived as a humiliation and representation of loss of credibility. In extreme cases it looks like this:



    One can just joke and ridicule the people, but let's think for a second about the students of such instructor. Of course there is lots of crap mentioned in the clip, but that isn't really the students' fault who in good faith become students of whatever sensei. From the other side, the absence of challenges probably contributed to cult-like behaviors developing. Nevetheless, I think sufficient reasons can be thought of as to what your sensei might have had in mind when he/she tongue-in-cheek mentioned what he did.

    But that aside, in modern day sportified jûdô you can safely go with what Doug suggested. In fact, even in Japan it is quite common for sensei sometimes to demonstrate with children and let themselves being thrown, as long as this physically is still safe for them taking into account their sometimes advanced age. It is, of course, not something one should reasonable expect from any of the 10th dan-holders at the Kôdôkan anymore.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
    avatar
    Steve Leadbeater

    Posts : 187
    Join date : 2013-02-26
    Age : 61
    Location : Sydney Australia

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by Steve Leadbeater on Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:54 am

    I don't particularly like using crash mats as I have a dislike of landing half on the mat and half on the floor, I also find that my "spacial/situational awareness" is thrown out of order by the height difference, insomuch as I find myself not being able to compensate for the thickness of the crash mat.

    Does anybody else have this problem....or is it just me ??
    avatar
    afulldeck

    Posts : 377
    Join date : 2012-12-30

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by afulldeck on Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:18 am

    Steve Leadbeater wrote:I don't particularly like using crash mats as I have a dislike of landing half on the mat and half on the floor, I also find that my "spacial/situational awareness" is thrown out of order by the height difference, insomuch as I find myself not being able to compensate for the thickness of the crash mat.

    Does anybody else have this problem....or is it just me ??

    What are you trying to compensate? I treat crash mats like the high jump or pole vault pit. You don't time the landing you just let it happen.


    _________________
    “I have never wished to cater to the crowd; for what I know they do not approve, and what they approve I do not know.” ... Epicurus at Sen. Lucil, 29.10
    avatar
    BillC

    Posts : 806
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Vista, California

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by BillC on Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:47 pm

    Some problems may be similar to what I like to call "getting hung up on the geometry of the dojo."  That's the tendency to do everything lined up with the walls, or the lines on the tatami.

    Some assume that the way to use a crash pad must certainly be with both tori's and uke's feet parallel to the mat's edge, with uke ending up somehow ending up on the antipodal position from where be began.  They assume that every throw is a 180 degree affair ... if not in general then when faced with a crash pad.

    With some study and creativity ... maybe a peek at Donn Draeger's randori no kata book ... one can find that uke is often "intended" to fall in other directions.  

    In general, I find that many forward throws work best when uke starts at 90 degrees to the pad's edge with enough space between uke's side and the pad for tori to fit.  Osotogari can be a challenge, the traditional white belt's three-step tends to cause problems as tori tries to make uke reach the pad ... there is a method my sensei showed me ... easy to do but hard to explain in a short post.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    DougNZ

    Posts : 399
    Join date : 2013-01-28

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by DougNZ on Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:18 pm

    BillC wrote:Some problems may be similar to what I like to call "getting hung up on the geometry of the dojo."  That's the tendency to do everything lined up with the walls, or the lines on the tatami.

    Some assume that the way to use a crash pad must certainly be with both tori's and uke's feet parallel to the mat's edge, with uke ending up somehow ending up on the antipodal position from where be began.  They assume that every throw is a 180 degree affair ... if not in general then when faced with a crash pad.

    With some study and creativity ... maybe a peek at Donn Draeger's randori no kata book ... one can find that uke is often "intended" to fall in other directions.  

    In general, I find that many forward throws work best when uke starts at 90 degrees to the pad's edge with enough space between uke's side and the pad for tori to fit.  Osotogari can be a challenge, the traditional white belt's three-step tends to cause problems as tori tries to make uke reach the pad ... there is a method my sensei showed me ... easy to do but hard to explain in a short post.

    Agreed. We rarely start with tori back-on to the mat.
    avatar
    Ricebale

    Posts : 423
    Join date : 2013-01-01
    Location : Wollongong Australia

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by Ricebale on Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:51 pm

    BillC wrote:
    In general, I find that many forward throws work best when uke starts at 90 degrees to the pad's edge with enough space between uke's side and the pad for tori to fit.  Osotogari can be a challenge, the traditional white belt's three-step tends to cause problems as tori tries to make uke reach the pad ... there is a method my sensei showed me ... easy to do but hard to explain in a short post.

    Very true, this is a major stumbling block, knowing how to use the equipment. A lot of turn the corner applications work when both people are facing each other and the mat placed where the partner should land rather than where they think the mat looks good in the room. Hence the statement from detractors that " the mat gets in the way", this statement usually exposes their lack of exposure to proper use of equipment and/or techniques.

    Edit:

    By way of example after ukemi and entry practice on mats I had everyone do 50 consecutive full power throws on crash mats each last night and not a single little or big injury. Very hard to achieve this with low level guys on tatami.
    avatar
    ThePieman

    Posts : 263
    Join date : 2012-12-28

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by ThePieman on Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:33 pm

    Steve Leadbeater wrote:I don't particularly like using crash mats as I have a dislike of landing half on the mat and half on the floor, I also find that my "spacial/situational awareness" is thrown out of order by the height difference, insomuch as I find myself not being able to compensate for the thickness of the crash mat.

    Does anybody else have this problem....or is it just me ??

    I agree Steve,

    I feel less safe using a crash mat, can't judge when the ground is coming, can't break fall, and usually you land with some big oaf on top of you because people feel that they can fully commit with a crash mat. Same when tori, I find it more akin to shot put than judo, introducing a point at which uke must be thrown just adds one more layer of difficulty for me; that's just me though.

    Oh and Steve.  Smile 


    _________________
    The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
    Socrates
    In the practice of tolerance, one's enemy is the best teacher.
    Dalai Lama

    avatar
    Jihef

    Posts : 169
    Join date : 2013-09-06
    Location : Brussels, Belgium

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by Jihef on Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:25 pm

    BillC wrote:I won't call you stupid, it's an esoteric term, a "zen" thing.  It's a very specialized and focused training method used by dan grades to strengthen their thumbs by spending the entire practice leaning against the wall and pressing those thumbs behind the obi to the exclusion of any other exertion.  This becomes even more challenging over the years as the gut increases is size and the forearm must support a certain amount of that visceral adipose tissue.  Often, the practice is enhanced by shouting at children as the sole form of aerobic conditioning.
    Aaah… OK, thanks. I had forgotten that one…
     cyclops
    avatar
    judoratt

    Posts : 309
    Join date : 2012-12-30
    Age : 60
    Location : Seattle

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by judoratt on Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:54 am

    We regularly train with crash mats, once or twice a month. Years ago at a national camp we were taught that ukes whole body doea not need to hit the mat to absorb the impact, as long as the lower half hits it will absorb the force.
    This is regular advice I still give today.

    Ranma

    Posts : 18
    Join date : 2013-08-25

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by Ranma on Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:19 am

    I endorse this message.  The emphasis on developing power in the throw is a very good point.  You cannot experiment with your throws to develop power without a crash pad, or willing partners.  Willing partners are rare, and are especially difficult to work with if they can kick your butt.  Even with elite athletes it's not a given that they will be a good uke for you.  Half of them will cheat for throws like osoto by shifting their weight off their leg.  Though I remember one good uke that stood firm for the attack, but with such a look of resignation on his face!
    avatar
    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 857
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:31 am

    Ranma wrote:I endorse this message.  The emphasis on developing power in the throw is a very good point.  You cannot experiment with your throws to develop power without a crash pad, or willing partners.  

    How so ?  The power is necessary to break the gravitation and resistance before lifting the opponent and in the initiation of the launch phase. After that ... it becomes not so relevant anymore. So I do not really understand the logic ?  Unless the idea is from the moment he is falling to maximally accelerate that fall so that he lands as hard as possible and you really want to bury your opponent into the tatami. I don't really think that that is the purpose of the jû in jûdô. I do not even actually throw my partners anymore in yaku-soku-geiko or kakari-geiko. It's all a matter of kuzushi and I know and they know when they have reached "the point of no return". It's only really when you want to practice tachi-waza to newaza transitions as in Japan, but which isn't really trained to that extent in the West that continuation is essential. But "crash mats" aren't really suite for that as they do not provide realistic surface for newaza or katame-waza unless you want to practice defending yourself against possible attackers in bed.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
    avatar
    judoratt

    Posts : 309
    Join date : 2012-12-30
    Age : 60
    Location : Seattle

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by judoratt on Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:06 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Ranma wrote:I endorse this message.  The emphasis on developing power in the throw is a very good point.  You cannot experiment with your throws to develop power without a crash pad, or willing partners.  

    How so ?  The power is necessary to break the gravitation and resistance before lifting the opponent and in the initiation of the launch phase. After that ... it becomes not so relevant anymore. So I do not really understand the logic ?  Unless the idea is from the moment he is falling to maximally accelerate that fall so that he lands as hard as possible and you really want to bury your opponent into the tatami. I don't really think that that is the purpose of the jû in jûdô. I do not even actually throw my partners anymore in yaku-soku-geiko or kakari-geiko. It's all a matter of kuzushi and I know and they know when they have reached "the point of no return". It's only really when you want to practice tachi-waza to newaza transitions as in Japan, but which isn't really trained to that extent in the West that continuation is essential. But "crash mats" aren't really suite for that as they do not provide realistic surface for newaza or katame-waza unless you want to practice defending yourself against possible attackers in bed.

    The problem with rondori and nagikomi is that uke is fairly compliant. In competition the finish can be dificult, and many throws need to be finished to the mat. These throws are difficult to practice in either rondori or nagakomi because of the impact.

    Ranma

    Posts : 18
    Join date : 2013-08-25

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by Ranma on Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:47 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:Unless the idea is from the moment he is falling to maximally accelerate that fall so that he lands as hard as possible and you really want to bury your opponent into the tatami.

    That is what I meant, though I probably shouldn't have used an absolute "cannot". I believe it's a helpful exercise, if not to punish an uke, but to give tori feedback on the efficiency of his technique. How hard uke lands can give feedback on how mechanically correct the execution was, and if the timing and positioning was done well.

    Though I understand your view as someone at a high level needs less feedback.
    avatar
    Ricebale

    Posts : 423
    Join date : 2013-01-01
    Location : Wollongong Australia

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by Ricebale on Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:18 am

    judoratt wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Ranma wrote:I endorse this message.  The emphasis on developing power in the throw is a very good point.  You cannot experiment with your throws to develop power without a crash pad, or willing partners.  

    How so ?  The power is necessary to break the gravitation and resistance before lifting the opponent and in the initiation of the launch phase. After that ... it becomes not so relevant anymore. So I do not really understand the logic ?  Unless the idea is from the moment he is falling to maximally accelerate that fall so that he lands as hard as possible and you really want to bury your opponent into the tatami. I don't really think that that is the purpose of the jû in jûdô. I do not even actually throw my partners anymore in yaku-soku-geiko or kakari-geiko. It's all a matter of kuzushi and I know and they know when they have reached "the point of no return". It's only really when you want to practice tachi-waza to newaza transitions as in Japan, but which isn't really trained to that extent in the West that continuation is essential. But "crash mats" aren't really suite for that as they do not provide realistic surface for newaza or katame-waza unless you want to practice defending yourself against possible attackers in bed.

    The problem with rondori and nagikomi is that uke is fairly compliant. In competition the finish can be dificult, and many throws need to be finished to the mat. These throws are difficult to practice in either rondori or nagakomi because of the impact.

    This is what distinguishes sysyems like Judo from Systems like aikido. The feeling of full force drive in the Shiai is the next level from kata or randori. The crash mat for me is how I help bridge the gap.

    Richard Riehle

    Posts : 79
    Join date : 2013-06-22
    Location : California

    Crash Mats

    Post by Richard Riehle on Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:36 am

    For children, it is not as necessary, but it is really helpful for adult beginners.Our dojo is largely populated by grown-ups, many of whom are beginners. The crash mat is a good thing for a forty to fifty five year old who wants to start Judo, is a little out of shape, a little uncoordinated, and needs to develop confidence before risking a fall on the tatami surface.

    avatar
    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 857
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:48 am

    judoratt wrote:

    The problem with rondori and nagikomi is that uke is fairly compliant. In competition the finish can be dificult, and many throws need to be finished to the mat. These throws are difficult to practice in either rondori or nagakomi because of the impact.


    This is no doubt true, but nothing of what has been discussed here offers a solution to that.

    In competition much of what we see today aren't really jûdô throws in the literal sense of the term but are often "take-downs", "chaotic throws", the kind of thing that isn't really practised but that is situational conglomerate of responses to inputs. They can't often be repeated because each of them is different depending on the opponent's specific reaction, build and properties. They are partly improvisatory.

    The crashmat does not offer the solution because it is everything but improvisatory for several reasons, not in the least that that the technique is not only anticipated but also exactly where it is going to be carried out and where uke is going and has to land, i.e. on the crashmat. Thus, it does not add anything to that, except for the sole factor that from what I understand the desire to throw as hard as possible or finish to the mat. In everything jûdô, control is crucial, and that control I have without following through to the mat. In fact, IF in shiai it would be necessary to follow through to the tatami, that oftentimes is because of lack of control. Should one focus his jûdô on how to salvage a score from something carried out without sufficient control, I prefer on focusing on my technique to improve my control. I don't have to, nor can I even train for the indefinite number of factors that mediate the trajectory of the opponent during being thrown. In other words, without disagreeing with anything you say, I think it is an illusion that this concern is solved or even addressed simply by throwing your opponent on a crashmat as hard as possible and falling on top of him. Your finish is going to be entirely different not in the least because of all the biomechanical and physics factors that describe the landing on a tatami or mat.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
    avatar
    judoratt

    Posts : 309
    Join date : 2012-12-30
    Age : 60
    Location : Seattle

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by judoratt on Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:55 pm

    I find it to be a tool to use with my advanced students to work on finishing their throws. I am off to the dojo and think we will have a crash Mat session tonight. Smile Smile
    avatar
    Ricebale

    Posts : 423
    Join date : 2013-01-01
    Location : Wollongong Australia

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by Ricebale on Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:09 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    judoratt wrote:

    The problem with rondori and nagikomi is that uke is fairly compliant. In competition the finish can be dificult, and many throws need to be finished to the mat. These throws are difficult to practice in either rondori or nagakomi because of the impact.


    This is no doubt true, but nothing of what has been discussed here offers a solution to that.

    In competition much of what we see today aren't really jûdô throws in the literal sense of the term but are often "take-downs", "chaotic throws", the kind of thing that isn't really practised but that is situational conglomerate of responses to inputs. They can't often be repeated because each of them is different depending on the opponent's specific reaction, build and properties. They are partly improvisatory.

    The crashmat does not offer the solution because it is everything but improvisatory for several reasons, not in the least that that the technique is not only anticipated but also exactly where it is going to be carried out and where uke is going and has to land, i.e. on the crashmat. Thus, it does not add anything to that, except for the sole factor that from what I understand the desire to throw as hard as possible or finish to the mat. In everything jûdô, control is crucial, and that control I have without following through to the mat. In fact, IF in shiai it would be necessary to follow through to the tatami, that oftentimes is because of lack of control. Should one focus his jûdô on how to salvage a score from something carried out without sufficient control, I prefer on focusing on my technique to improve my control. I don't have to, nor can I even train for the indefinite number of factors that mediate the trajectory of the opponent during being thrown. In other words, without disagreeing with anything you say, I think it is an illusion that this concern is solved or even addressed simply by throwing your opponent on a crashmat as hard as possible and falling on top of him. Your finish is going to be entirely different not in the least because of all the biomechanical and physics factors that describe the landing on a tatami or mat.

    When I read such a well articulated arguement that I can't intellectually contend I image how this dude would think of the high brow principles concerning no use of power to comolete a throw:



    At the very least I'm sure his training partners would have loved the invention if the crash mat Smile
    avatar
    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 857
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:29 pm

    Ricebale wrote:
    When I read such a well articulated arguement that I can't intellectually contend I image how this dude would think of the high brow principles concerning no use of power to comolete a throw:



    At the very least I'm sure his training partners would have loved the invention if the crash mat Smile

    As with most things in jûdô I do not just wonder or speculate but actually pursue them to the best of my abilities and if exceeding those abilities, it's clear I have to increase those abilities first. As unfortunately I never had the pleasure to train under Kimura Masahiko myself, the best I could do was read everything he wrote or published, watch every footage that exists about him, studied what his students documented in writing, audiovisually or practically, and I talked to three people who met Kimura in competition. Of those three two also trained with him, one a couple of times at the Kôdôkan, the other one at Takushoku Dai. And my own newaza-sensei was a sparring partner of Kimura; there is a video posted on YouTube on Kôsen jûdô where you can see the two at work; his name is Kurimura-sensei. My other sensei who was at the same club and worked with him regularly was Hirano-sensei. Of the two people who met Kurimura in shiai, only the name of Ôsawa-sensei will ring a bell here; he met him twice in shiai. The other person was a gentleman in his 90s, whom I talked to, I think in 2006, who met Kimura also twice in shiai.

    Hirano literally told me that he thought Kimura was physically about 5 times as strong as he. And Hirano though small and very technical was hardly weak. In fact he was very strong, which you would especially feel in newaza. When people talk about Hirano, it is always about tachi-waza, but I assure you that Hirano's newaza was first class. That is no surprise, both him and Kimura were students of Ushijima. Ôsawa's account was very similar. He said to me that he met Kimura for the first time at the Kôdôkan, when he did not know him yet but everyone else did and whispered 'look Kimura, there Kimura ..." when he came in. He said Kimura then when to stand leaning with one shoulder to the wall from the corner of his eye watching everything that was going on, on the tatami. He then finally walked on to the tatami. Ôsawa added then that what he recalls most was Kimura's incredible physical strength, but he said that despite that Kimura did not succeed in throwing him very often. I obviously wasn't there myself in those days so I have no way to verify this, but it is credible since Ôsawa himself was a phenomenal fighter though much lighter than Kimura. Ôsawa then met Kimura twice in the All Japan Championships, and yes, he lost twice. The elderly gentleman who no one would know here anyway had long quit jûdô when I talked to him. He too had fought Kimura twice, and had twice lost.

    I also would have loved to talk to Ishikawa-sensei about Kimura, but unfortunately I never had an opportunity to meet Ishikawa-sensei in person.

    In other words, there is consensus everywhere that Kimura was incredibly strong. However, no one pointed out to me that this was the result of, or that this would imply that Kimura would also during train need to throw his partners as hard as possible into the tatami. Even if he did, this would be somewhat irrelevant since when Kimura was still doing shiai he was like everyone still in his shiai years likely full of testosterone, but in terms of technique still far from reaching his zenith.

    I also have never said that either I do not use any power to complete a throw, nor that anyone should. What I have said is that myself and virtually any respected sensei in Japan at a certain level and age do not need to throw their opponent full force in the tatami or actually throw him at all in order to know if their action was successful. I used to be notorious for throwing people hard, and when I used to do competition I was testosterone-gungho like and obsessed like most jûdôka at that age by nothing else but ego and winning and proving I was the best. That all you have and can acquire at that age. You don't obtain Mifune-like skills at age 16, you have to start at the beginning.

    Of all world-elite fighters I have fought not a single one has ever thrown me onto a crashmat, nor did most use their force to bury me into the tatami. At training I regularly fought -95 kg and even +95 kg world elite fights. If you want to mention someone phenomenally strong, then surely Van De Walle would be a valid example. What was phenomenal about him was his explosive force and how he could go from zero to everything in a fraction of a second, but that force was used either to lift me, to break my kumi-kata and balance, to counter gravity, or to launch the throw. He never used that force to throw me down as hard as possible or fell intentionally on me. None of the heavy-weights I fought came close in terms of explosive force, although they might have had more static power. They were much slower, and they used a combination of superior weight and power to drag me down, yes. What that means is that I as -78 kg fighter I could be leaning totally forward for seoi-nage or harai-goshi and they would then totally un-jûdô like use their advantage to fall in the opposite direction without any kuzushi or jûdô whatsoever. In any case they knew they could do that and didn't need a crash mat for that and neither did I. Why not because if you know how to do ukemi that makes little difference; what makes a difference and was a problem is the unhealthy forces on your spine or back from this anti-judo. Judo would be to break the balance first backwards, or catch someone off guard and then throw back wards. You cannot throw someone with jûdô who is leaning forward and keeps reacting forward, backward. You can if you are heavy and strong enough but it isn't jûdô and whatever it might be, there isn't a place or need for crashmats in that equation either.

    Like anyone with a lot of competitive experience of course I know what to do if I really want to hurt someone and cause rib fractures or make sure that they need to call and ambulance, but that kind of behavior does not belong in a dôjô, and even if that would be my purpose, there wouldn't be a need for crashmats either.

    I use a plethora of techniques in randori and when I competed these also included, for example morote-gari and ura-nage. Now explain to me why, when doing randori, and I succeed in lifting you completely of the ground and up in the air, why would I also need to throw you down full force ? To prove to myself that I was in full control ? To prove it to you you ? Or because I would only master the first part of the throw (tsukuri, kuzushi, the first part of its kake), but not its ending ? Not very credible.

    In my experience I think the only elite fighters I'v met that did these more unpleasant things were usually -65kg fighters. I avoided training with them. Maybe it was because I was 2 weightclasses heavier that they thought I would be using a lot of force so that they felt a need to anticipate that or what ? But they almost never attempted proper throws, but always the "take-down" kind of nonsense, so I found practice with them usually rather unsatisfactory. By far the most satisfactory jûdô for me was in the -71kg and -78kg weight classes. People would at least attempt real throws instead of dragging you down, and they would also less be force, force, force, like how it was often in the -86 kg.

    When one is in jûdô one hopefully evolves, and one finds and learns effective and more efficient ways of training. My technique today is far better than when I was 20 years old, but of course I am way past my date of expiry. When one is young, very young and full of testosterone, we do all kinds of things, and attempting to throw someone as hard as possible yes, that too. There a clip where you can see Willem Ruska throwing Okano during training. Knowing that Ruska is a heavyweight of pure steel muscle and would later become a double Olympic champion, yes, that's the sort of really hardcore bury in the tatami kind of throwing. So it exists, no doubt, and he was at that time also just in his 20s, but that being said, no one was using crashmats, although admittedly yes, a proper springfloor Japanese dôjô. I repeat that again, the biodynamics of being thrown and making ukemi during a hard throw on a proper tatami are quite different from those of a crashmat. In terms of dissipation of energy there is a reason why there exist dôjô and tatami standards and why those are different from crashmats. The indentation of a crashmat is far greater and the biomechanically and healthwise, this is not unequivocally 'better' or 'less risky', since the handslapping effect becomes less effective and dissipation is different. One could for example, also use the medium of water. That too would be possible and no one would break anything, but the ukemi action would be totally different and the handslapping quite different due to the specific physical behavior of water, such as notably its poor compressibility.

    In other words, I 'understand' why some people use crashmats either for certain parts or training, for certain throws, or for certain people. I don't use them ever, not for myself and not for teaching. That they can be 'fun', no doubt, I believe that very much; however, I do not teach 'fun' in the dôjô, but jûdô. I have not said that there is no place for a crashmat in the dôjô, rather what I mean is that if one teacher's pedagogy cannot but need a crashmat in order to reach his objectives, I am absolutely convinced I can reach that same objective without a crashmat, which does not make them 'necessary'; whether they are 'useful' depends on one's pedagogical approach. They would not be in mine.

    There exist somewhat similar discussions in other martial arts. For example, are break tests necessary in karate in order to become a very skilled and accomplished karate who can strike very hard ?

    Are cutting tests necessary in iai in order to properly develop technique that can do more than just make movements in the air.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
    avatar
    NittyRanks

    Posts : 99
    Join date : 2013-05-10
    Location : New York State

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by NittyRanks on Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:46 am

    For me using the crash mat where I have to kind of throw "up" onto the mat is sort of hard for throws like Tomoe nage and Yoko Otoshi .
    avatar
    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 790
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:43 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Ranma wrote:I endorse this message.  The emphasis on developing power in the throw is a very good point.  You cannot experiment with your throws to develop power without a crash pad, or willing partners.  

    How so ?  The power is necessary to break the gravitation and resistance before lifting the opponent and in the initiation of the launch phase. After that ... it becomes not so relevant anymore. So I do not really understand the logic ?  Unless the idea is from the moment he is falling to maximally accelerate that fall so that he lands as hard as possible and you really want to bury your opponent into the tatami. I don't really think that that is the purpose of the jû in jûdô. I do not even actually throw my partners anymore in yaku-soku-geiko or kakari-geiko. It's all a matter of kuzushi and I know and they know when they have reached "the point of no return". It's only really when you want to practice tachi-waza to newaza transitions as in Japan, but which isn't really trained to that extent in the West that continuation is essential. But "crash mats" aren't really suite for that as they do not provide realistic surface for newaza or katame-waza unless you want to practice defending yourself against possible attackers in bed.

    I have found that a progressive approach to learning "follow through" to work pretty well. I was fortunate in many ways in my judo "upbringing" in that I my first sensei had been taught somewhat traditionally. Zanshin was a word I learned and a characteristic I was made to practice in each throw I did, whether or not I really understood what it meant or not !

    As I got more into competition, I found that that "control" and "focus" "alertness remaining" I had drilled into me was critical to following though to ne waza or "rolling through" a throw for complete follow-though. My next teacher, from the same dojo, with the same first sensei and I worked a lot of follow through to ne waza, and finishing a throw, similar to how people use crash pads today.

    We did not have crash pads, and did Judo on a rather thin one piece mat of some sort, covered with a blue vinyl cover, over a wooden floor that has some but not a lot of spring to it. We did full power throws, full speed, over and over and over again, but somehow never managed to injure each other, or suffer any ill effects.

    I'm not saying that is optimal, just that it's possible if one learns sufficient control and ukemi waza. I think that sort of training is skipped over today, the type to learn progressive control from simple standing with control, control to katame waza (ne or otherwise), to follow-through directly to ne waza, to what I'll call "rolling" follow through where tori over rotates over uke rather than going to ne/katame waza.

    On a slightly different issue, I think that the use of crash pads and developing "power" at the end of the throw takes the focus off of the control BEFORE the finish. With the amount of acrobatics being done to escape landing in scoring position nowadays and for the past 2 decades or so, that control is even more critical. However, that control is a lot more than just jamming uke/opponent into the tatame and landing on him. Crash pads are sort of a short cut to that control, and a specialized tool as well when used correctly.

    For beginners, I don't use them much if at all. There is no need for them to use extreme follow through, and plenty of progressive ukemi to throwing drills to create or choose from to develop sufficient control and ukemi waza skills.





    _________________
    Falling for Judo Since 1980

    Sponsored content

    Re: Crash Mats - Old Judokas opinion

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:35 pm