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    BillC

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    another MMA death

    Post by BillC on Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:51 am

    Professional MMA fighter Booto Guylain passed away Wednesday after suffering a severe head injury in a Feb. 27 bout in Johannesburg, South Africa. He was 29.

    Guylain, a middleweight with an 0-2 record, sustained the injury in a TKO loss to Keron Davies at an event hosted by the Extreme Fighting Championship Africa promotion.

    MMA death in the news

    No offense to fans ... actually I know some will take offense but I'll say it anyway.

    So, with all the news about TBI in sports ... boxing, football, football, etc. ... we have yet another new sport where a kick to the nuts is illegal, penalized, considered to be unsporting, even unmanly ... and shots to the head are praised, encouraged and rewarded financially?

    Arguments about allowing a route out of poverty for the disadvantaged solely on their physical ability and determination are old and can't be ignored.

    But isn't it also true that  leaving the reproductive capacity intact while removing any ability for self-control and ultimately self-care, instead of regularly smashing the family jewels leaving the brain intact ... is somehow ... Darwinian?

    "God said to Adam, I am going to give you two things ... and both of them will bring you much enjoyment ... but I am only going to give you enough blood to use one at a time."


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    still learning

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    Re: another MMA death

    Post by still learning on Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:00 am

    Sad news for his family. MMA has to look at itself but I daresay that generating the revenue it does it will take even more fatalities and a public outcry before anything will change.

    PointyShinyBurning

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    Re: another MMA death

    Post by PointyShinyBurning on Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:30 am

    BillC wrote:
    But isn't it also true that  leaving the reproductive capacity intact while removing any ability for self-control and ultimately self-care, instead of regularly smashing the family jewels leaving the brain intact ... is somehow ... Darwinian?
    Your concern is touching, undoubtedly genuine and expressed in a classy fashion.

    The sport is not, never can be, completely safe. No full contact sport is.
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    BillC

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    Re: another MMA death

    Post by BillC on Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:39 am

    PointyShinyBurning wrote:
    BillC wrote:
    But isn't it also true that  leaving the reproductive capacity intact while removing any ability for self-control and ultimately self-care, instead of regularly smashing the family jewels leaving the brain intact ... is somehow ... Darwinian?
    Your concern is touching, undoubtedly genuine and expressed in a classy fashion.

    The sport is not, never can be, completely safe. No full contact sport is.

    "Any man's death diminishes me" is a saying that rings true with me, but a death on the news is an abstraction, and an opportunity to learn. Anyone in a full contact sport should know the risks, but they are rarely discussed in a realistic way. As if kids continuing to head the ball is "worth it" for the chance at "winning." As if the NFL throws some money around, Junior Seau comes back to life and takes a position with AnnMaria teaching statistics at USC.

    Glad my post caught your attention, as intended.

    True, there are many contact sports that can cause serious injury. But here we are talking about brain injury and how we, presumably living in a civilized world, whistle past that particular graveyard of undesirable consequences. Further, we encourage and challenge men and women ... and even children to accept inevitable and certain damage to the organ which we should hold most dear ... while protecting those which perhaps should not be used in people who would encourage such behavior.

    This is a judo forum. Judo, even done well, can result in head injury. You imply another truth that even getting out of bed in the morning risks brain injury. But the difference is that the intent in MMA is to cause brain damage. It's cheered, it leads to street level imitation ... as if it is no big deal ... World Star! Sick f***ing culture ... and I have friends and dojo mates that are into this BIG TIME. We simply disagree.

    So no one notices the people too young to be in assisted living facilities because they don't know what day it is or what they had for breakfast. But we do notice a young man taken from us. "Touching concern" gains his family what now?


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    seatea

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    Re: another MMA death

    Post by seatea on Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:13 am

    BillC wrote:
    PointyShinyBurning wrote:
    BillC wrote:
    But isn't it also true that  leaving the reproductive capacity intact while removing any ability for self-control and ultimately self-care, instead of regularly smashing the family jewels leaving the brain intact ... is somehow ... Darwinian?
    Your concern is touching, undoubtedly genuine and expressed in a classy fashion.

    The sport is not, never can be, completely safe. No full contact sport is.
    But the difference is that the intent in MMA is to cause brain damage.  It's cheered, it leads to street level imitation ... as if it is no big deal ... World Star!  Sick f***ing culture ... and I have friends and dojo mates that are into this BIG TIME.  We simply disagree.

    This is just not true. The intent in MMA is, like any other sport, to win. I'm not saying that strikes to the head don't cause brain damage, but that isn't the reason fighters do those techniques. If a medical treatment were devised to remove any and all risk of brain damage from knock outs do you really think MMA fighters would stop KO'ing people, because no brain damage = no point?




    Anyway, it's my belief that the bulk of the damage done occurs in training. MMA gyms need to rid themselves (or at least reduce) the macho culture, and adopt sensible training practices; most concussions an MMA fighter receives will be in sparring sessions treated like actual fights, with little to no use of safety equipment and trainers not forcing students to take a break from striking when they do get a hit hard.
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    BillC

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    Re: another MMA death

    Post by BillC on Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:40 pm

    seatea wrote:This is just not true. The intent in MMA is, like any other sport, to win. I'm not saying that strikes to the head don't cause brain damage, but that isn't the reason fighters do those techniques. If a medical treatment were devised to remove any and all risk of brain damage from knock outs do you really think MMA fighters would stop KO'ing people, because no brain damage = no point?

    While what you are saying is true hypothetically, but fails in one respect. A knockout is brain damage. And this is well known and a medical fact. And it is still part of the sport.

    seatea wrote:Anyway, it's my belief that the bulk of the damage done occurs in training. MMA gyms need to rid themselves (or at least reduce) the macho culture, and adopt sensible training practices; most concussions an MMA fighter receives will be in sparring sessions treated like actual fights, with little to no use of safety equipment and trainers not forcing students to take a break from striking when they do get a hit hard.

    I absolutely agree. Has the brain of one of the greatest human beings I have ever met turned to tofu because of Joe Frazier, as my old man maintained? Or because of the training he endured as a young man names Cassius Clay? The answer is probably a bit of both.

    But my post is not so much a rant against MMA and knockouts and a very sad and tragic end to a man's life ... which is no-win argument with fans ... stated again I am amazed at the priorities ... which organs do people really value?


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    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

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    seatea

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    Re: another MMA death

    Post by seatea on Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:42 am

    seatea wrote:This is just not true. The intent in MMA is, like any other sport, to win. I'm not saying that strikes to the head don't cause brain damage, but that isn't the reason fighters do those techniques. If a medical treatment were devised to remove any and all risk of brain damage from knock outs do you really think MMA fighters would stop KO'ing people, because no brain damage = no point?

    While what you are saying is true hypothetically, but fails in one respect.  A knockout is brain damage.  And this is well known and a medical fact.  And it is still part of the sport.

    You don't even need to be knocked out, a concussion with no loss of consciousness is also brain damage, but I'm not sure many fighters are aware of this, perhaps from wilful ignorance. They don't want to acknowledge what they do to themselves and especially others; most fighters would be mortified to find that they had done significant, irreparable damage to the brain of a competitor.

    I absolutely agree.  Has the brain of one of the greatest human beings I have ever met turned to tofu because of Joe Frazier, as my old man maintained?  Or because of the training he endured as a young man names Cassius Clay?  The answer is probably a bit of both.

    But my post is not so much a rant against MMA and knockouts and a very sad and tragic end to a man's life ... which is no-win argument with fans ... stated again I am amazed at the priorities ... which organs do people really value?

    When MMA was still style vs. style the karate community managed to get groin strikes made legal for a while which led to an individual called Joe Son get the living hell punched out of his balls. If you know anything about Joe Son you'll know this was a good thing.

    As to valuing wedding tackle more than the brain, it comes down to machismo, ideas of sportsmanship and it being regarded as a 'cheap shot'. But I mainly believe it comes down to pain; being kick in the balls hurts a lot, far more than getting knocked out.
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    Davaro

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    Re: another MMA death

    Post by Davaro on Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:28 am

    One death is too many.

    However, the article you attached states there have been to date only 3 deaths in pro MMA?

    I would again consider three too many but have to admit (taking into account how many thousands of pro-mma fights must happen) I would have thought there were more. It is an extreme contact sport, with athletes taking many knocks to the head etc but surely the statistics prove that safety is a major concern and that in general, referees know when to stop a bout and thus stop serious injuries and/or deaths.

    Over the same period, how many boxers have died?
    How many racing drivers?
    Rugby players?
    Judoka?
    The list can go on.

    In all sports (even curling) there is an element of risk. More so in some than others.

    All adults partaking in such activities know the inherent risks.

    Just ask Michael Shumacher (If only we could)

    RIP to my fellow South African and thoughts with his family at this tragic time.


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    BillC

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    Re: another MMA death

    Post by BillC on Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:06 am

    seatea wrote:... I mainly believe it comes down to pain; being kick in the balls hurts a lot, far more than getting knocked out.

    As does a knee to the liver! Shocked  pale 

    In response to Davaro am not going to give up on the idea of intent making things a bit different in the case of Michael Schumacher ... he didn't go set out to whack himself in the melon, nor were his fellow drivers out to off him when he was racing ... theoretically. Watched "Rush" on the plane last time out, there was a film that explored risk taking behavior for sure.

    Thanks however for taking the issue of intentional, consequential brain damage seriously. It's very difficult to have a meaningful discussion about that with the young people who are enthused about the the sport of MMA. Long term consequences versus short term pleasure ... yes ... certainly that is not only a problem with MMA ... segue to a discussion with our sons about the aforementioned wedding tackle.

    But have the conversation we should ... I'd just love it if the UFC commentators would frequently say something like "good thing that guy's not testing to get into the Ivy League and with this loss he's never going to be able to buy his way in either ..." when someone is getting their cabeza dribbled on the canvas.


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    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

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    Davaro

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    Re: another MMA death

    Post by Davaro on Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:32 am

    Ah Bill, I hear you.

    But I bet you no "fighter" goes out there with the intention of getting hit in the head? Hitting someone yes, but getting hit? No.

    Just like going down the alpine slopes, one does not have intent on messing your brain juice all over a rock. BUT you know it could happen don't you?


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    We could have a poll - but if the majority vote for "Judo roly poly" its going to ignite fascist dictatorlike tendencies lurking within me.


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    Richard Riehle

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    Re: another MMA death

    Post by Richard Riehle on Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:28 pm

    BillC wrote:Professional MMA fighter Booto Guylain passed away Wednesday after suffering a severe head injury in a Feb. 27 bout in Johannesburg, South Africa. He was 29.

    Guylain, a middleweight with an 0-2 record, sustained the injury in a TKO loss to Keron Davies at an event hosted by the Extreme Fighting Championship Africa promotion.

    MMA death in the news

    No offense to fans ... actually I know some will take offense but I'll say it anyway.

    So, with all the news about TBI in sports ... boxing, football, football, etc. ... we have yet another new sport where a kick to the nuts is illegal, penalized, considered to be unsporting, even unmanly ... and shots to the head are praised, encouraged and rewarded financially?

    blood to use one at a time."

    So, Jigoro Kano got it right when he eliminated atemi-waza from Judo competition. Brain injuries are often cumulative, not the result of a single punch or kick. The same is true of other kinds of body blows. The fact that someone survives a given punch or kick does not imply that there was no long-term damage. Some parts of the body heal from trauma. Other parts never fully heal. How often does a person need to have his or her face cut into open wounds for this sport to make sense? How does anyone know the lifelong damage being inflicted on these young men and women who are encouraged to risk their future health for a moment of triumph? What strange notion of victory and defeat is in the mind of the promoters and the fighters that would let them risk becoming crippled in old-age in pursuit of the transient, and totally meaningless, wins and losses in their youth?
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    BillC

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    Re: another MMA death

    Post by BillC on Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:35 pm

    Davaro wrote:
    Just like going down the alpine slopes, one does not have intent on messing your brain juice all over a rock. BUT you know it could happen don't you?

    Not me! I (insert word from below) better than the average mortal. Everyone else is an idiot.

    1. drive
    2. ski
    3. cook
    4. vote
    5. fight
    6. make love
    7. post on E-Judo


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    still learning

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    Re: another MMA death

    Post by still learning on Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:45 pm

    BillC wrote:

    Not me!  I (insert word from below) better than the average mortal.  Everyone else is an idiot.

    1.  drive
    2.  ski
    3.  cook
    4.  vote
    5.  fight
    6.  make love
    7.  post on E-Judo

    You're clearly smarter than the average idiot.

    Richard Riehle

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    Re: another MMA death

    Post by Richard Riehle on Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:22 am

    Davaro wrote:Ah Bill, I hear you.

    But I bet you no "fighter" goes out there with the intention of getting hit in the head? Hitting someone yes, but getting hit? No.

    Just like going down the alpine slopes, one does not have intent on messing your brain juice all over a rock. BUT you know it could happen don't you?
    This is not a good analogy. There is certainly risk in every kind of sport, and every kind of human endeavor. There is a difference between choosing a sport where the probability of risk of a certain kind of injury is high.
    .
    Risk Exposure = Risk Probability X Risk Severity
    .
    The risks associated with skiing can be quite severe, but the probability of a given risk decreases with skill. Moreover, the mountain on which you are skiing is not deliberately trying to injure you. Combat, of any kind, involves two or more people trying to defeat an opponent. In a combat sport where the goal is to do as much damage as possible to one's opponent, albeit within a certain set of rules, we have a different kind of exposure. This kind of combat multiplies the risk probability, and when the severity is also high, the exposure value gets larger and larger.

    In Judo, we have a strict set of rules, and deliberately doing damage to one's opponent is not encouraged, even though such injury may inadventantly occur. When it does occur, it is, if one is obeying the rules, accidental. We are trained to throw our opponent so s/he can land safely. We are forbidden from using certain dangerous techniques that have a high risk of injury to ourselves or our opponent. There is some risk, of course, but the severity factor is greatly reduced by proscribing those dangerous techniques.

    Safety -- reduction in the probability of risk -- is also fundamental to many other combat sports. In fencing, whether as Kendo or European style, we no longer use sharp blades, and we wear protective clothing. Those who enjoy paintball combat protect themselves with special gear.

    But, in MMA, the object is to hurt the opponent until s/he cannot no longer stand the pain. Draw blood, if possible. Knock them unconscious if you can. Traumatize their kidney at any opportunity. And more.

    There is a relatively recent finding in the science of brain development that indicates that the human brain is still developing its rational thinking capabilities even into the early twenties. One part of that finding shows that teen-agers and young adults are not fully aware of the dangers of certain behaviors, even when those dangers seem obvious. They still believe themselves immortal and indestructible. This pathology is one reason young soldiers can go into combat and do foolish things that we call heroic: the reality of their actual death is not quite fully registered in their cerebral cortex. For some people, there seems to be some indication that this reality is never fully developed in their brain. I suspect that a lot of MMA participants are in that, "It could not happen to me," group.

    As I noted earlier, the continual trauma, even little micro-trauma, that one experiences in boxing, MMA, and even popular sports such as football, all accumulate over a lifetime, and put the participants at risk of serious disability as they age. Of course, when we are young, we never think about what we will be like when we are elderly. Old age seems so far away. We might as well live now as if we will live forever enjoying the good health and sentient mind we have today. The miracles of future medicine will fix me up if I start to have trouble.



    Hanon

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    Re: another MMA death

    Post by Hanon on Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:42 am

    Riehle sensei, simply superb post.

    You are not just a pretty face are you! Very Happy 

    Kind regards,

    Mike


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: another MMA death

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:58 am

    Hanon wrote:Riehle sensei, simply superb post.

    You are not just a pretty face are you! Very Happy 

    Kind regards,

    Mike

    I echo Hanon-sensei's comment, at least the one in the first line !  Cool 


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    Davaro

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    Re: another MMA death

    Post by Davaro on Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:56 am

    Richard Riehle wrote:
    Davaro wrote:Ah Bill, I hear you.

    But I bet you no "fighter" goes out there with the intention of getting hit in the head? Hitting someone yes, but getting hit? No.

    Just like going down the alpine slopes, one does not have intent on messing your brain juice all over a rock. BUT you know it could happen don't you?
    This is not a good analogy.   There is certainly risk in every kind of sport, and every kind of human endeavor.   There is a difference between choosing a sport where the probability of risk of a certain kind of injury is high.  
    .
                        Risk Exposure = Risk Probability X Risk Severity
    .
    The risks associated with skiing can be quite severe, but the probability of a given risk decreases with skill.   Moreover, the mountain on which you are skiing is not deliberately trying to injure you.   Combat, of any kind, involves two or more people trying to defeat an opponent.  In a combat sport where the goal is to do as much damage as possible to one's opponent, albeit within a certain set of rules, we have a different kind of exposure.   This kind of combat multiplies the risk probability, and when the severity is also high, the exposure value gets larger and larger.  

    In Judo, we have a strict set of rules, and deliberately doing damage to one's opponent is not encouraged, even though such injury may inadventantly occur.  When it does occur, it is, if one is obeying the rules, accidental.   We are trained to throw our opponent so s/he can land safely.  We are forbidden from using certain dangerous techniques that have a high risk of injury to ourselves or our opponent.   There is some risk, of course, but the severity factor is greatly reduced by proscribing those dangerous techniques.  

    Safety -- reduction in the probability of risk -- is also fundamental to many other combat sports.  In fencing, whether as Kendo or European style, we no longer use sharp blades, and we wear protective clothing.   Those who enjoy paintball combat protect themselves with special gear.  

    But, in MMA, the object is to hurt the opponent until s/he cannot no longer stand the pain.  Draw blood, if possible.  Knock them unconscious if you can.   Traumatize their kidney at any opportunity.   And more.  

    There is a relatively recent finding in the science of brain development that indicates that the human brain is still developing its rational thinking capabilities even into the early twenties.  One part of that finding shows that teen-agers and young adults are not fully aware of the dangers of certain behaviors, even when those dangers seem obvious.   They still believe themselves immortal and indestructible.  This pathology is one reason young soldiers can go into combat and do foolish things that we call heroic:  the reality of their actual death is not quite fully registered in their cerebral cortex.   For some people, there seems to be some indication that this reality is never fully developed in their brain.  I suspect that a lot of MMA participants are in that, "It could not happen to me," group.  

    As I noted earlier, the continual trauma, even little micro-trauma, that one experiences in boxing, MMA, and even popular sports such as football, all accumulate over a lifetime, and put the participants at risk of serious disability as they age.   Of course, when we are young, we never think about what we will be like when we are elderly.   Old age seems so far away.   We might as well live now as if we will live forever enjoying the good health and sentient mind we have today.   The miracles of future medicine will fix me up if I start to have trouble.



    My analogy was written with tongue firmly in cheek. I was responding to BillC after all...

    You are preaching to the converted (at least where I am concerned)

    Interesting though, in this EFC event where this tragic accident (?) took place, a lot of the competitors are 30+ but I agree that the younger testosterone fuelled guys are drawn to this like a fly to.. well you know what I mean. How's THAT for an analogy?

    - I placed ? by "accident" - can it really be called that when someone intentionally beat the crap out of this poor guy? Is someone culpable? mmmm...


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    We could have a poll - but if the majority vote for "Judo roly poly" its going to ignite fascist dictatorlike tendencies lurking within me.


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