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    DougNZ

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    Seoi Nage

    Post by DougNZ on Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:16 am

    BillC's recent post led me to ponder seoi nage.

    I have noticed a couple of distinct ways of applying seoi nage.  In the first, uke is fixed to tori's back, projected forwards and over to the ground.



    The second is to pull uke down over tori's back and drive up underneath by straightening the legs, similar to the lift in o goshi.  There is more emphasis on the bottom of the circle than the first method.



    Please can we have a masterclass on seoi nage?

    trumfnator

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by trumfnator on Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:51 am

    This is very interesting.
    I don't have anything to start with, but I want to add this Video of H. Katanishi:

    http://youtu.be/bievkFxqP4o?t=7m25s

    I don't understand anything (in terms of language) but i think you can see that he's explaining some important points of seoi nage.
    My lazy minions are too slow in translating... Wink

    BillC

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by BillC on Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:12 am

    trumfnator wrote:This is very interesting.
    I don't have anything to start with, but I want to add this Video of H. Katanishi:

    http://youtu.be/bievkFxqP4o?t=7m25s

    I don't understand anything (in terms of language) but i think you can see that he's explaining some important points of seoi nage.
    My lazy minions are too slow in translating... Wink

    My French ability is merde, but the drift of the presentation is clear.  Thanks, i just learned a couple of new takes on some drills.

    Comments:

    -  Seems like the gentleman in this video is explaining the concept of both videos the OP offered.  Both are on a kind of continuum I think ... the boys are loosely attached at the upper torso, the girls tightly held ... both over a fulcrum low and close to them.  The question maybe, where is the forward momentum coming from.

    -  The answer in this video seems to be "it doesn't matter."

    -  I think there are other seoinage, equally valid, where the upper body contact counts for even more of the throw, the bending of the knees almost non-existent, yet the pricinple is the same ... except that uke is induced up and over the fulcrum point instead of the fulcrum being thrust in front of an off-balanced uke.

    This is a good discussion so far ... let's keep it up.

    P.S. - notice the flexibility in the legs that allows tori a strong and stable squatting position with feet flat.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    DougNZ

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by DougNZ on Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:10 pm

    I will add my bit to keep the thread's momentum.  I do so knowing that I may be well wide of the mark and I welcome more educated comments.

    Let's call the two 'types' "top over" and "bottom up" for ease of identification.

    I mainly use the top over version for a number of reasons:
    1. I understand seoi nage to mean something like 'back carry throw'.  That implies, to me, using a back carry to create the upwards and forward momentum that initiates the throw.
    2. Rather than doing a big lifting draw, turning in and fitting underneath it, I tend to get upper body contact before turning in, so that the turn creates a lot of the unbalancing.  This means I am unbalancing using my body rather than just arms.
    3. I find 'pops' when uke is pretty much already thrown to be redundant.  For example, popping the outstretched leg in tai otoshi seems redundant in a hand throw when uke is well on their way to being thrown by the time the knee pop comes into play.  I understand that the tai otoshi knee pop, like the bottom up seoi nage, could add to the torque but I don't believe it would create that much more speed of rotation.  No, that's not quite true, but the extra speed is at uke's feet and not at their head.  If I want to generate that extra knock-out factor, popping uke's feet end won't do it.
    4. My experience fighting under different rules is that any lower-structure seoi nage is at a significantly higher risk of being rear-mounted.
    5. That said, I understand that a higher-structure seoi nage runs the risk of being hip-blocked.  However, the less committed entry I use means I can flow into another technique if my seoi nage attempt is blocked.
    6. In my advancing years, I am slower coming out of deep squatting positions than I used to be!!!

    Keeping an open mind, though ...

    JudoStu

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by JudoStu on Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:08 pm

    DougNZ wrote:BillC's recent post led me to ponder seoi nage.

    I have noticed a couple of distinct ways of applying seoi nage.  In the first, uke is fixed to tori's back, projected forwards and over to the ground.



    The second is to pull uke down over tori's back and drive up underneath by straightening the legs, similar to the lift in o goshi.  There is more emphasis on the bottom of the circle than the first method.



    Please can we have a masterclass on seoi nage?

    Seoi nage is not my throw but those two kids are amazing to watch.
    If I was thrown that many times with a seio nage I would be unable to move for a week


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    Richard Riehle

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by Richard Riehle on Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:46 pm

    DougNZ wrote:BillC's recent post led me to ponder seoi nage.

    I have noticed a couple of distinct ways of applying seoi nage.  In the first, uke is fixed to tori's back, projected forwards and over to the ground.



    The second is to pull uke down over tori's back and drive up underneath by straightening the legs, similar to the lift in o goshi.  There is more emphasis on the bottom of the circle than the first method.



    Please can we have a masterclass on seoi nage?
    Neither of the videos are representative of a proper seoi-nage. In throwing to the front, for any technique, one does not throw the person downward, and most certainly does not bend forward from the waist as is shown in the videos. That is a good way to hurt yourself. It is one of the things I dislike about ju-no-kata, but in ju-no-kata, one is rarely engaged in the equivalent of a wrenching-the-back motion.

    The kuzushi is important. The tsukuri is essential. Tori does not step under uke and lift him/her. Rather, tori draws uke forward with upward hikite and upward tsurite. Never pull uke's arm downward! Never throw downward. As uke is drawn off-balance, engage the tsurite by turning and placing the upper part of your shoulder (not too deep, though) well above uke's bicep. Uke should be on his toes. If you can get your shoulder into his armpit, all the better. Your knees are bent, your body is in contact with his upper torso all the way to your hips. The kake is not a downward motion of bending at the hips. Rather, it is a torque-like motion where you spin him around your body -- minimum lifting. As you throw, turn your head in the direction of the spin. Done right, he will land directly in front of you. At the end of this action, you are not leaning forward over his fallen body. Rather, you are still in good posture, holding his arm straight into your abdomen, sometimes even pulling upward a little bit.

    Repeat! Seoi-nage is not a throw where you bend at the waist to complete the throw.

    afulldeck

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by afulldeck on Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:05 pm

    Richard Riehle wrote:
    DougNZ wrote:BillC's recent post led me to ponder seoi nage.

    I have noticed a couple of distinct ways of applying seoi nage.  In the first, uke is fixed to tori's back, projected forwards and over to the ground.



    The second is to pull uke down over tori's back and drive up underneath by straightening the legs, similar to the lift in o goshi.  There is more emphasis on the bottom of the circle than the first method.



    Please can we have a masterclass on seoi nage?
    Neither of the videos are representative of a proper seoi-nage.   In throwing to the front, for any technique, one does not throw the person downward, and most certainly does not bend forward from the waist as is shown in the videos.   That is a good way to hurt yourself.   It is one of the things I dislike about ju-no-kata, but in ju-no-kata, one is rarely engaged in the equivalent of a wrenching-the-back motion.  

    The kuzushi is important.  The tsukuri is essential.   Tori does not step under uke and lift him/her.   Rather, tori draws uke forward with upward hikite and upward tsurite.  Never pull uke's arm downward!   Never throw downward.   As uke is drawn off-balance, engage the tsurite by turning and placing the upper part of your shoulder (not too deep, though) well above uke's bicep.  Uke should be on his toes.  If you can get your shoulder into his armpit, all the better.  Your knees are bent, your body is in contact with his upper torso all the way to your hips.  The kake is not a downward motion of bending at the hips.  Rather, it is a torque-like motion where you spin him around your body -- minimum lifting.   As you throw, turn your head in the direction of the spin.  Done right, he will land directly in front of you.  At the end of this action, you are not leaning forward over his fallen body.  Rather, you are still in good posture, holding his arm straight into your abdomen, sometimes even pulling upward a little bit.

    Repeat!  Seoi-nage is not a throw where you bend at the waist to complete the throw.  

    Richard, I agree with almost everything you said--except (don't you just hate that word) ".. If you can get your shoulder into his armpit, all the better..." I've always been taught to be as close and tight to your opponents shoulder but shy of the armpit. Taking the armpit allows for the possibility of a shime waza counter, where as shoulder to shoulder provides more torque when you spin.

    Did I miss something in my understanding?


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    DougNZ

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by DougNZ on Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:17 pm

    Richard Riehle wrote:The kake is not a downward motion of bending at the hips.  Rather, it is a torque-like motion where you spin him around your body -- minimum lifting.  

    To clarify, Riehle sensei, is the torque-like motion similar to that of uki goshi?

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:17 pm

    DougNZ wrote:I will add my bit to keep the thread's momentum.  I do so knowing that I may be well wide of the mark and I welcome more educated comments.

    Let's call the two 'types' "top over" and "bottom up" for ease of identification.

    I mainly use the top over version for a number of reasons:
    1. I understand seoi nage to mean something like 'back carry throw'.  That implies, to me, using a back carry to create the upwards and forward momentum that initiates the throw.
    2. Rather than doing a big lifting draw, turning in and fitting underneath it, I tend to get upper body contact before turning in, so that the turn creates a lot of the unbalancing.  This means I am unbalancing using my body rather than just arms.
    3. I find 'pops' when uke is pretty much already thrown to be redundant.  For example, popping the outstretched leg in tai otoshi seems redundant in a hand throw when uke is well on their way to being thrown by the time the knee pop comes into play.  I understand that the tai otoshi knee pop, like the bottom up seoi nage, could add to the torque but I don't believe it would create that much more speed of rotation.  No, that's not quite true, but the extra speed is at uke's feet and not at their head.  If I want to generate that extra knock-out factor, popping uke's feet end won't do it.
    4. My experience fighting under different rules is that any lower-structure seoi nage is at a significantly higher risk of being rear-mounted.
    5. That said, I understand that a higher-structure seoi nage runs the risk of being hip-blocked.  However, the less committed entry I use means I can flow into another technique if my seoi nage attempt is blocked.
    6. In my advancing years, I am slower coming out of deep squatting positions than I used to be!!!

    Keeping an open mind, though ...

    The "popping" of the "bottom up" seoi nage is more a result of the low entry...you have to come up a bit to keep from hitting uke on his head. If you just stay down their, then Seoi Otoshi happens (no popping up), and it's mostly rotation. One advantage to the low seoi is that you can use your body weight moving as a form of kuzushi, and also adapt to bent posture of uke.

    I hesitate to say this, but unbalancing is mostly with the body and movement anyway, not the arms, regardless of high or low. The arms on the low version need to be used, but to me it was always more to get the proper connection to uke upper body.

    There is an in between place that works pretty well too.


    Anyway, nice discussion !


    ****Edit****
    I got to watch the videos finally.

    I would not use that little kid's version of that henka of seoi nage as a good example at all. He is making a lot of mistakes, and kind of endangering uke in the process. Richard pointed out the bending forward business already.

    The first video is not IMO so bad, she isn't really bending at the waist that much. Could use more turning motion, one reason that uke is landing off the the side a bit, plus something is going on in which she is loosening her control, or didn't have it to begin with...might be she loses tension on her hikite, is dropping the tsurite a bit, and also not rotating enough.



    Last edited by Ben Reinhardt on Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:24 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:20 pm

    Richard Riehle wrote:
    DougNZ wrote:BillC's recent post led me to ponder seoi nage.

    I have noticed a couple of distinct ways of applying seoi nage.  In the first, uke is fixed to tori's back, projected forwards and over to the ground.



    The second is to pull uke down over tori's back and drive up underneath by straightening the legs, similar to the lift in o goshi.  There is more emphasis on the bottom of the circle than the first method.



    Please can we have a masterclass on seoi nage?
    Neither of the videos are representative of a proper seoi-nage.   In throwing to the front, for any technique, one does not throw the person downward, and most certainly does not bend forward from the waist as is shown in the videos.   That is a good way to hurt yourself.   It is one of the things I dislike about ju-no-kata, but in ju-no-kata, one is rarely engaged in the equivalent of a wrenching-the-back motion.  

    The kuzushi is important.  The tsukuri is essential.   Tori does not step under uke and lift him/her.   Rather, tori draws uke forward with upward hikite and upward tsurite.  Never pull uke's arm downward!   Never throw downward.   As uke is drawn off-balance, engage the tsurite by turning and placing the upper part of your shoulder (not too deep, though) well above uke's bicep.  Uke should be on his toes.  If you can get your shoulder into his armpit, all the better.  Your knees are bent, your body is in contact with his upper torso all the way to your hips.  The kake is not a downward motion of bending at the hips.  Rather, it is a torque-like motion where you spin him around your body -- minimum lifting.   As you throw, turn your head in the direction of the spin.  Done right, he will land directly in front of you.  At the end of this action, you are not leaning forward over his fallen body.  Rather, you are still in good posture, holding his arm straight into your abdomen, sometimes even pulling upward a little bit.

    Repeat!  Seoi-nage is not a throw where you bend at the waist to complete the throw.  

    I'm glad you took the time to describe that, thanks. I was going to try but...not tonight.

    I keep telling my students that in Seoi Nage, an ideal one at least, uke pretty much falls over you. It's one of those things I got from Nage No Kata, and have mentioned before.



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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:23 pm

    DougNZ wrote:
    Richard Riehle wrote:The kake is not a downward motion of bending at the hips.  Rather, it is a torque-like motion where you spin him around your body -- minimum lifting.  

    To clarify, Riehle sensei, is the torque-like motion similar to that of uki goshi?

    I'm not Richard, but I'd say no...Turn your head and shoulder, and twist at the hips.

    In Uki Goshi, uke is loaded on your hip and it's a kind of snappy twist and uke falls more to the side, feels totally differently.



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    still learning

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by still learning on Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:35 pm

    This aspect is covered off in detail from 2:10

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Myj-ux99SaE

    Creamy creamy baileys

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by Creamy creamy baileys on Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:17 pm

    Real shame that the old JF died; I asked this kind of question twice 6 or 8 years ago; I recall we had some good video exchanges etc.

    (I think one of the threads was called "leaping low seoinage" or something like that, if that helps anyone)

    Richard Riehle

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by Richard Riehle on Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:45 pm

    afulldeck wrote:
    Richard Riehle wrote:
    DougNZ wrote:BillC's recent post led me to ponder seoi nage.

    I have noticed a couple of distinct ways of applying seoi nage.  In the first, uke is fixed to tori's back, projected forwards and over to the ground.



    The second is to pull uke down over tori's back and drive up underneath by straightening the legs, similar to the lift in o goshi.  There is more emphasis on the bottom of the circle than the first method.



    Please can we have a masterclass on seoi nage?
    Neither of the videos are representative of a proper seoi-nage.   In throwing to the front, for any technique, one does not throw the person downward, and most certainly does not bend forward from the waist as is shown in the videos.   That is a good way to hurt yourself.   It is one of the things I dislike about ju-no-kata, but in ju-no-kata, one is rarely engaged in the equivalent of a wrenching-the-back motion.  

    The kuzushi is important.  The tsukuri is essential.   Tori does not step under uke and lift him/her.   Rather, tori draws uke forward with upward hikite and upward tsurite.  Never pull uke's arm downward!   Never throw downward.   As uke is drawn off-balance, engage the tsurite by turning and placing the upper part of your shoulder (not too deep, though) well above uke's bicep.  Uke should be on his toes.  If you can get your shoulder into his armpit, all the better.  Your knees are bent, your body is in contact with his upper torso all the way to your hips.  The kake is not a downward motion of bending at the hips.  Rather, it is a torque-like motion where you spin him around your body -- minimum lifting.   As you throw, turn your head in the direction of the spin.  Done right, he will land directly in front of you.  At the end of this action, you are not leaning forward over his fallen body.  Rather, you are still in good posture, holding his arm straight into your abdomen, sometimes even pulling upward a little bit.

    Repeat!  Seoi-nage is not a throw where you bend at the waist to complete the throw.  

    Richard, I agree with almost everything you said--except (don't you just hate that word) ".. If you can get your shoulder into his armpit, all the better..." I've always been taught to be as close and tight to your opponents shoulder but shy of the armpit. Taking the armpit allows for the possibility of a shime waza counter, where as shoulder to shoulder provides more torque when you spin.

    Did I miss something in my understanding?

    Not so high into your own shoulder as to invite a shime-waza. Not so low that you uke is on your bicep. Also, the alacrity of tori's movement will, when executed correctly, dissuade any effective attempt by uke at a shime-waza.

    trumfnator

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by trumfnator on Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:48 am

    Richard Riehle wrote:
    Neither of the videos are representative of a proper seoi-nage.   In throwing to the front, for any technique, one does not throw the person downward, and most certainly does not bend forward from the waist as is shown in the videos.   That is a good way to hurt yourself.   It is one of the things I dislike about ju-no-kata, but in ju-no-kata, one is rarely engaged in the equivalent of a wrenching-the-back motion.  

    The kuzushi is important.  The tsukuri is essential.   Tori does not step under uke and lift him/her.   Rather, tori draws uke forward with upward hikite and upward tsurite.  Never pull uke's arm downward!   Never throw downward.   As uke is drawn off-balance, engage the tsurite by turning and placing the upper part of your shoulder (not too deep, though) well above uke's bicep.  Uke should be on his toes.  If you can get your shoulder into his armpit, all the better.  Your knees are bent, your body is in contact with his upper torso all the way to your hips.  The kake is not a downward motion of bending at the hips.  Rather, it is a torque-like motion where you spin him around your body -- minimum lifting.   As you throw, turn your head in the direction of the spin.  Done right, he will land directly in front of you.  At the end of this action, you are not leaning forward over his fallen body.  Rather, you are still in good posture, holding his arm straight into your abdomen, sometimes even pulling upward a little bit.

    Repeat!  Seoi-nage is not a throw where you bend at the waist to complete the throw.  

    Maybe I missunderstand the "not bending at the waist" and torque-motion part (no native speaker), but is this wrong then?

    http://youtu.be/D4Po1rFH0iA?t=10m47s

    http://youtu.be/D4Po1rFH0iA?t=21m17s

    afulldeck

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by afulldeck on Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:49 am

    Richard Riehle wrote:
    afulldeck wrote:
    Richard Riehle wrote:
    DougNZ wrote:BillC's recent post led me to ponder seoi nage.

    I have noticed a couple of distinct ways of applying seoi nage.  In the first, uke is fixed to tori's back, projected forwards and over to the ground.



    The second is to pull uke down over tori's back and drive up underneath by straightening the legs, similar to the lift in o goshi.  There is more emphasis on the bottom of the circle than the first method.



    Please can we have a masterclass on seoi nage?
    Neither of the videos are representative of a proper seoi-nage.   In throwing to the front, for any technique, one does not throw the person downward, and most certainly does not bend forward from the waist as is shown in the videos.   That is a good way to hurt yourself.   It is one of the things I dislike about ju-no-kata, but in ju-no-kata, one is rarely engaged in the equivalent of a wrenching-the-back motion.  

    The kuzushi is important.  The tsukuri is essential.   Tori does not step under uke and lift him/her.   Rather, tori draws uke forward with upward hikite and upward tsurite.  Never pull uke's arm downward!   Never throw downward.   As uke is drawn off-balance, engage the tsurite by turning and placing the upper part of your shoulder (not too deep, though) well above uke's bicep.  Uke should be on his toes.  If you can get your shoulder into his armpit, all the better.  Your knees are bent, your body is in contact with his upper torso all the way to your hips.  The kake is not a downward motion of bending at the hips.  Rather, it is a torque-like motion where you spin him around your body -- minimum lifting.   As you throw, turn your head in the direction of the spin.  Done right, he will land directly in front of you.  At the end of this action, you are not leaning forward over his fallen body.  Rather, you are still in good posture, holding his arm straight into your abdomen, sometimes even pulling upward a little bit.

    Repeat!  Seoi-nage is not a throw where you bend at the waist to complete the throw.  

    Richard, I agree with almost everything you said--except (don't you just hate that word) ".. If you can get your shoulder into his armpit, all the better..." I've always been taught to be as close and tight to your opponents shoulder but shy of the armpit. Taking the armpit allows for the possibility of a shime waza counter, where as shoulder to shoulder provides more torque when you spin.

    Did I miss something in my understanding?

    Not so high into your own shoulder as to invite a shime-waza.  Not so low that you uke is on your bicep.  Also, the alacrity of tori's movement will, when executed correctly, dissuade any effective attempt by uke at a shime-waza.  

    Thank you. That make perfect sense to me.


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    BillC

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by BillC on Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:05 am

    Uh ... are we talking morote seoinage or ippon seoinage here? Armpits ... choking counters ... I am cornfused. 'Cuz the two seem to have similar if not always the same movement from the chest down, quite bit of difference and variation from the chest up.

    No jokes about Thailand on that last one, please.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    Richard Riehle

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by Richard Riehle on Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:27 am

    BillC wrote:Uh ... are we talking morote seoinage or ippon seoinage here?  Armpits ... choking counters ... I am cornfused.  'Cuz the two seem to have similar if not always the same movement from the chest down, quite bit of difference and variation from the chest up.  

    No jokes about Thailand on that last one, please.
    Both morote-seoi-nage and ippon-seoi-nage have variations. Koga has a unique set of variations that one rarely sees in earlier Judo. The key, for every consistently successful seoi-nage is certainly kuzushi and tsukuri.

    For morote, there are several interesting variations. Some people like to insert their elbow into uke's armpit. This variation can, when done badly, cause damage to tori's wrist, especially when uke is heavy and tori has the palm turned up. A similar variation is where tori inserts his wrist under uke's armpit for a lifting action. Our former member of the Forum, PTNippon, demonstrated a version (available on YouTube) where the elbow is not inserted until well into the throw, where the elbow arm is not used so much for lifting but for guiding uke. Of course, more variations exist, some more effective than others.

    For ippon, one also sees variations. I will mention two that are quite different from each other. In conventional ippon-seoi-nage, tori's throwing arm is thrust deeply toward uke's armpit with the palm on some part of uke's upper arm, often close to the bicep. In this version, we see a lot of mistakes, including the bending at the waist, as seen in the videos. My preferred version of ippon-seoi-nage is a bit similar but the palm of my throwing arm is facing away from me (and away from uke), and thrust up high, and my body action is as a large circle, never a downward movement. Of course, uke does find his way to the floor, but I rely heavily on the upward movement of my circle, using the always dependable assistance of gravity to bring him to the floor. I learned this version from one of my Aikido instructors, a man with Rokudan in both Judo and Aikido. It is a kind of Aikido influenced version of ippon-seoi-nage.

    My main points, in the earlier post: 1) do not bend at the waist to execute the throw, 2) emphasize good kuzushi, 3) in the tsukuri, bring uke to you instead of entering and lifting him, 4) tori's throwing arm must be higher toward uke's armpit than the biceps, 5) use a circular motion of the body to effect the technique, 6) maintain control at the conclusion of the technique.

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:52 pm

    DougNZ wrote:

    I have noticed a couple of distinct ways of applying seoi nage.  In the first, uke is fixed to tori's back, projected forwards and over to the ground.

    The second is to pull uke down over tori's back and drive up underneath by straightening the legs, similar to the lift in o goshi.  There is more emphasis on the bottom of the circle than the first method.

    Please can we have a masterclass on seoi nage?

    Hmm, I don't know if this will turn into a master class. A couple of years ago I was asked to extensively look into the physics and didactics of a jûdô throw and seoi-nage was one of the options, but I decide to write about a different one, for a number of reasons, one of them being that it has been for near 60 years a specialty of my club and of several of my teachers. I could have chosen seoi-nage too, but I didn't.

    However, maybe we shouldn't reinvent the wheel. Seoi-nage, together with ô-soto-gari and uchi-mata are the three most studied jûdô techniques by biomechanists and jûdô-technical specialists. It has been the subject of theses, specialized biomechanical papers, and there exists an excellent Japanese videotape devoted to nothing else.

    As with all throwing techniques in jûdô, there is the science and there is the traditional. pedagogy and didactic approach. Again, for this throw, the two are different. The throw or similar appears in many Japanese traditional martial arts.

    The basic science behind it is simple, and the scientific requirements amount to just a few things:

    - the distance between the 2 opponents must be closed; it is not possible to perform seoi-nage if one opponent is in one corner of the tatami and the other in the other corner.
    - as the distance is closed there will be a 'collision' of bodies, the term 'collision' used here as a physics term.
    - the displacement of the couple formed by the two opponents has to be momentarily stopped because seoi-nage is a lever throw and it is not possible to perform a lever throw without stopping, even if this halt is just a fraction of a second. During that instant the fulcrum is established and the levers applied. Kuzushi scientifically does not exist as a separate phase and is part of the execution of the throw. By applying the lever the center of mass is displaced in such a way that recovery is not possible (= loss of balance).

    That's it, scientifically. The only difference is that excellent jûdô excel in choosing the moment, in applying the most efficient position of the fulcrum and use of levers, and in application of power they can apply, and in strategic thinking, and speed of action.


    In terms of didactic approach, things are different and jûdô postulates phases so that students can compartmentalize. Through instruction from a teacher strategies can be tried out to optimize debana, and this will also increase with experience. Ways of hairi-kata (= how to enter the throw) can be taught, learnt and practised, as well as a plethora on how and where to construct the fulcrum, the levers and manipulate these to the most ideal for your body, your way of judo and physical abilities, that the properties of the opponent. In jûdô-speak, these are things we know such as coordination, control, etc.

    There are many, many ways for doing this, some are better, some are worse, some are just different, some appeal to certain perks or to additional scientific or knowledge. For example, a rotational (spiraling seoi-nage) is more effective in the sense that it is more difficult to resist for uke, because a human's ability to resist rotational kuzushi is much impaired in comparison with linear kuzushi. Also force applied in a rotational mode (torque) has peculiarities when compared to following a linear trajectory. That being said, there are may other factors and characteristics on which an athlete can focus despite Koga Toshihiko usually doing rather linear trajectory seoi-nage he was very successful with it since obviously he excelled in optimizing many other technical and strategic aspects.

    There is thus not one or two ways to do it which would be the only correct ways. Rather one has to look at an individual and where the problems are and correct those towards a mode that likely is the easiest or most effective for him to do. A superb jûdôka or with specific features may be able to do things which others can't or which others label as mistakes. It's a matter of coordination, debana and strategy, and if you master these things with such a degree of superiority, you may be able to perform the most aberrant or unusual seoi-nage with great success. The better jûdôka will also (unknowingly) apply the scientific concept but the better the jûdô the more 'efficient' its application becomes, i.e. literally a greater effect with a lesser effort.


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    DougNZ

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by DougNZ on Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:23 pm

    Thank you, CK, though the 'it depends' component of your answer did not give me guidance beyond the variations I know and have seen.  Perhaps you could discuss the various forms used by certain masters of old if you have time.

    Richard, if the video posted by Still Learning is indeed a close approximation of the twisting execution of seoi nage that you promote, then it seems a sound version.  I do not mean to contradict you but in looking at Kodokan judo we see a bent waist execution and the words "Now bend your body forward and pull downwards with both hands.  You opponent will fly over your right shoulder and land in front of you."   Kudo in Judo in action shows a bent waist throw though uke travels more obliquely.  He writes, "Bend your head down, and put your back tight up against the front of your opponent's body.  At the same time, bounce on both legs, straighten your knees, bend your upper body forward, and pull straight down with both hands.  Throw your opponent straight down in front of you, letting him cross over your right shoulder."  Kawaishi's diagram shows an 'up and over' throw, with the words, "Once these contacts are established it remains only for tori to bend forward, thereby detaching uke's legs from the ground with the impact of his loins.  Uke's right leg is first lifted and uke should pass freely above tori's shoulder and not on the side."  He adds, "... and tori's hips pushing uke's right thigh backwards with a blow of the loins play a decisive part in detaching uke from the ground, his right leg first."

    BillC

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by BillC on Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:25 pm

    DougNZ wrote:Thank you, CK, though the 'it depends' component of your answer did not give me guidance beyond the variations I know and have seen.  Perhaps you could discuss the various forms used by certain masters of old if you have time.

    Richard, if the video posted by Still Learning is indeed a close approximation of the twisting execution of seoi nage that you promote, then it seems a sound version.  I do not mean to contradict you but in looking at Kodokan judo we see a bent waist execution and the words "Now bend your body forward and pull downwards with both hands.  You opponent will fly over your right shoulder and land in front of you."   Kudo in Judo in action shows a bent waist throw though uke travels more obliquely.  He writes, "Bend your head down, and put your back tight up against the front of your opponent's body.  At the same time, bounce on both legs, straighten your knees, bend your upper body forward, and pull straight down with both hands.  Throw your opponent straight down in front of you, letting him cross over your right shoulder."  Kawaishi's diagram shows an 'up and over' throw, with the words, "Once these contacts are established it remains only for tori to bend forward, thereby detaching uke's legs from the ground with the impact of his loins.  Uke's right leg is first lifted and uke should pass freely above tori's shoulder and not on the side."  He adds, "... and tori's hips pushing uke's right thigh backwards with a blow of the loins play a decisive part in detaching uke from the ground, his right leg first."

    junokata ... nagenokata ...


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    Richard Riehle

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by Richard Riehle on Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:44 pm

    DougNZ wrote:Thank you, CK, though the 'it depends' component of your answer did not give me guidance beyond the variations I know and have seen.  Perhaps you could discuss the various forms used by certain masters of old if you have time.

    Richard, if the video posted by Still Learning is indeed a close approximation of the twisting execution of seoi nage that you promote, then it seems a sound version.  I do not mean to contradict you but in looking at Kodokan judo we see a bent waist execution and the words "Now bend your body forward and pull downwards with both hands.  You opponent will fly over your right shoulder and land in front of you."   Kudo in Judo in action shows a bent waist throw though uke travels more obliquely.  He writes, "Bend your head down, and put your back tight up against the front of your opponent's body.  At the same time, bounce on both legs, straighten your knees, bend your upper body forward, and pull straight down with both hands.  Throw your opponent straight down in front of you, letting him cross over your right shoulder."  Kawaishi's diagram shows an 'up and over' throw, with the words, "Once these contacts are established it remains only for tori to bend forward, thereby detaching uke's legs from the ground with the impact of his loins.  Uke's right leg is first lifted and uke should pass freely above tori's shoulder and not on the side."  He adds, "... and tori's hips pushing uke's right thigh backwards with a blow of the loins play a decisive part in detaching uke from the ground, his right leg first."
    That is certainly a variation of seoi-nage, and there is a proper way to execute it. However, it is not my preferred way, especially when throwing someone who is heavier.

    The variation you describe still requires the two elements I mentioned: proper kuzushi and proper tsukuri. The difference is that the tsukuri is based on that hip-bumping action. I know a prominent sensei -- a very competent teacher -- who still teaches seoi-nage this way, but he also adds some subtle tsukuri to it to make it less dangerous to tori (no risk of back injury). It is true that the ju-no-kata requires this form. However, the ju-no-kata is not an effective approach to any kind of combat. It is more of a dance, a very nice dance, but not too useful for real Judo engagement.

    Koga uses the straight-down approach for seoi-nage for most of his throws, and many people like this. What they do not see is his unique tsukuri to make this work for him. All they see is that he seems to be throwing them in a straight line instead of a rotational movement. To the untrained eye, and to the casual observer, he seems to be lifting them off their feet and throwing them directly to the floor by bending his waist. Actually, his throw is almost complete even before he bends his waist because of his kuzushi and unique kind of tsukuri.

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:53 pm

    DougNZ wrote:Thank you, CK, though the 'it depends' component of your answer did not give me guidance beyond the variations I know and have seen.  Perhaps you could discuss the various forms used by certain masters of old if you have time.

    I understand, Doug. But, I do not want to interfere with the ample explanations which other posters have already given, and I am also not convinced that I can do what it is you are asking, in a meaningful way. It seems to me that this would be much better done on the tatami.

    Besides, some of these judoka have have such a superior jûdô that it becomes difficult to separate at particular technique from their entire foudation. I have personally felt the seoi-nage of both Okano-sensei and Koga-sensei, and a number of Western experts. I am currently preparing a Western former world champion medalllist for a high-dan rank exam and what I notice is that the seoi-nage she is doing now really looks almost nothing like the seoi-nage she used to at the time she won these medals. This underlines that with the loss of physical prowess and explosiveness and injuries the technique itself suffers; this is notable in terms of timing, debana, balance, and of course explosiveness ... and following from this ... the power generated (mass times acceleration, with the mass having increased, sure but the accelaration have seriously impaired). Someone like Koga-sensei, in comparison, is still quite 'young'. Professor Riehle who has already contributed to this thread, may well have personally witnessed the seoi-nage of Ishikawa-sensei. At least I somehow seem to visualize Ishikawa's style of seoi-nage in the the way he describes the technique.

    Fujii Shôzô was also a great seoi-nage specialist, and heavy weight Endô Sumio too. The Japanese, especially in the 1960s en early 1970s had a whole list of seoi-nage experts. Tamura Ryôko (who later used the name 'Tani') also knew her way with it, and so did a whole number of French jûdôka from the 1970s or earlier, like Jean-Paul Coche, Bernard 'TchouTchou' Tchoulouyan, Yves Delvingt.

    Here you can see, Endô sensei, who like Parisi and Yamashita, was fast as lightning, certainly for a heavy-weight:



    Of course, I am fully aware that I have circumvented your question and am again not providing any help as I am not going in deeper on what precisely it is they do. Failing to do so is not ill will, but rather not immediately seeing an effective and efficient way for doing this.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    Richard Riehle

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    Re: Seoi Nage

    Post by Richard Riehle on Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:29 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    DougNZ wrote:Thank you, CK, though the 'it depends' component of your answer did not give me guidance beyond the variations I know and have seen.  Perhaps you could discuss the various forms used by certain masters of old if you have time.

    I understand, Doug. But, I do not want to interfere with the ample explanations which other posters have already given, and I am also not convinced that I can do what it is you are asking, in a meaningful way. It seems to me that this would be much better done on the tatami.

    Besides, some of these judoka have have such a superior jûdô that it becomes difficult to separate at particular technique from their entire foudation. I have personally felt the seoi-nage of both Okano-sensei and Koga-sensei, and a number of Western experts. I am currently preparing a Western former world champion medalllist for a high-dan rank exam and what I notice is that the seoi-nage she is doing now really looks almost nothing like the seoi-nage she used to at the time she won these medals. This underlines that with the loss of physical prowess and explosiveness and injuries the technique itself suffers; this is notable in terms of timing, debana, balance, and of course explosiveness ... and following from this ... the power generated (mass times acceleration, with the mass having increased, sure but the accelaration have seriously impaired). Someone like Koga-sensei, in comparison, is still quite 'young'. Professor Riehle who has already contributed to this thread, may well have personally witnessed the seoi-nage of Ishikawa-sensei. At least I somehow seem to visualize Ishikawa's style of seoi-nage in the the way he describes the technique.

    Fujii Shôzô was also a great seoi-nage specialist, and heavy weight Endô Sumio too. The Japanese, especially in the 1960s en early 1970s had a whole list of seoi-nage experts. Tamura Ryôko (who later used the name 'Tani') also knew her way with it, and so did a whole number of French jûdôka from the 1970s or earlier, like Jean-Paul Coche, Bernard 'TchouTchou' Tchoulouyan, Yves Delvingt.

    Here you can see, Endô sensei, who like Parisi and Yamashita, was fast as lightning, certainly for a heavy-weight:



    Of course, I am fully aware that I have circumvented your question and am again not providing any help as I am not going in deeper on what precisely it is they do. Failing to do so is not ill will, but rather not immediately seeing an effective and efficient way for doing this.

    Notice that Endo does not execute the technique by bending deeply at the waist, even though his body is learning forward at the end of the technique. His kuzushi and tsukuri are so good that the throw is actually performed before he leans forward. The learning forward is actually a follow-through, not a required part of the technique.

    Yes, CK, I tend to follow the instruction from many decades ago from my Sensei, Takahiko Ishikawa.

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