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    Stiff arms!

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    sydvicious

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    Stiff arms!

    Post by sydvicious on Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:55 am

    One of the most important things I've been working on is to stop doing it and, so far, I'm happy with my progress. I'm getting much 'looser' in randori. But last night, during randori, I was partnered with a fellow 4th Kyu and he was stiff arming like crazy!
    So my question to the elders is simple. What do you do when you are up against someone like that. Are there certain techniques that work better in that situation or ways to get round the stiff arming in order to close the distance, etc?


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    Davaro

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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by Davaro on Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:10 am

    I tend to go to soto makikomi, forcing the right arm under and around his stiff left arm until in the std "makikomi" position, often tying up his hand in my gi, which generally ends up in him learning the painful way to not stiff-arm.

    Also, a skilful entry into newaza, and then using his nicely straight arms to assist him into a nice Juji can also work.


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    DougNZ

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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by DougNZ on Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:38 am

    Remember that a stiff arm is a straight limb hinged to uke at their shoulder and tori at the grip point. It relies on applying force roughly 90* to the frontal plane of tori in order to be effective. Three tactics work quite well:

    1. Exploit the shoulder hinge by moving from the front of uke; the arm is no longer at 90* and therefore less effective.

    2. Try turning to face the strongest stiff arm, slipping it, so to speak. This exploits the grip hinge; the arm is no longer at 90* to tori and therefore less effective.

    3. Use leverage, such as gripping the chest under the stiff arm and using your elbow to either bend the stiff arm or weaken the grip hinge. You can do the same by over gripping and leveraging down on the elbow to bend the stiff arm or weaken the grip hinge, or by using the opposite hand on uke's elbow (i.e. tori's right hand to uke's right elbow).

    I tell everyone in our club to relax their arms and 'snake' their body through stiff arms to get into effective gripping range. It is a very 'ju' approach - go around the force. Every opening should be secured with footwork and hip placement, and tori's hands should immediately go to work, keeping uke close and putting them in a state of kuzushi. An added benefit is that you will find yourself entering on new angles and with different height structures, and this may open up a raft of new throws for you!

    Please note that I do not tell people not to stiff arm. Stiff arming happens and we should be able to work around it. It even happens at high levels; check out Saito's tactics against Yamashita in the 1985 All-Japan Judo Championships. Saying, "Don't stiff arm" creates an artificial environment for my club's purposes.

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:01 am

    sydvicious wrote:One of the most important things I've been working on is to stop doing it and, so far, I'm happy with my progress. I'm getting much 'looser' in randori. But last night, during randori, I was partnered with a fellow 4th Kyu and he was stiff arming like crazy!
    So my question to the elders is simple. What do you do when you are up against someone like that. Are there certain techniques that work better in that situation or ways to get round the stiff arming in order to close the distance, etc?

    I could start by providing all kinds of theoretical solutions, none of which will likely be effective at your level, so I am not going to do it and limit myself to saying that an astute sensei needs to take up his/her responsibility, watch his/her students and interfere and provide guidance where necessary.


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:39 am; edited 1 time in total


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    tafftaz

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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by tafftaz on Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:20 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    sydvicious wrote:One of the most important things I've been working on is to stop doing it and, so far, I'm happy with my progress. I'm getting much 'looser' in randori. But last night, during randori, I was partnered with a fellow 4th Kyu and he was stiff arming like crazy!
    So my question to the elders is simple. What do you do when you are up against someone like that. Are there certain techniques that work better in that situation or ways to get round the stiff arming in order to close the distance, etc?

    I could start by providing all kinds of theoretical solutions, none of work will likely be effective at your level, so I am not going to do it and limit myself to saying that an astute sensei needs to take up his/her responsibility, watch his/her students and interfere and provide guidance where necessary.


    Perfect answer

    afja_lm139

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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by afja_lm139 on Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:27 pm

    Back in the day, and like 50+ years ago, several of us youngsters developed a technique to use someone's stiff arms for our advantage.  You see, when they stick their arms out to keep you away, stiff arm, then you have to get under them, lifting their weight up a bit; therefore making you, Tori, heavier, and then a technique like ippon seoinage or seoi otoshi, complete the throw (see: http://www.kodokan.org/e_waza/image/seoiotoshi1.gif   or   http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Bp6YXOnmNYg/Tk9xxV-k_KI/AAAAAAAAAGo/q7PJ-KRU6Js/s1600/SEOI-OTOSHI.JPG).  

    Wish I could demonstrate this.  Also, if you can grasp under the elbow, hard enough to lock their elbow in the GI and execute a modified sode tsurikomi goshi then that works quite well.  In other words, instead of lifting uke high from the collar or sleve, lift from the elbow position. (see: http://www.judocluborgeval.com/techniqu/Sode-tsuri-komi-goshi.jpg ).  Even better image: http://www.kodokan.pl/files/images/SODE_TSURIKOMI_GOSHIcolor.png

    Those are just a couple methods to get around a stiff arm.  In fact, I used to just love it when someone stiff armed me, I lurked in randori for just the moment Smile

    beyondgrappling

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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by beyondgrappling on Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:02 pm

    Jimmy Pedro has a great video youtube regarding how to get around the stiff arms

    Here is another by Steve Scott and his team at Welcome Mat

    And here is a breakdown I did of it for Submissions 101:

    Hope they helped you out

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:13 pm

    beyondgrappling wrote:Jimmy Pedro has a great video youtube regarding how to get around the stiff arms

    Hope they helped you out

    What do you think the chances are a 4th kyû can even remotely replicate that what an ex-world champion and world class elite player does who coaches Olympic athletes ?  It isn't just a matter of technique, feeling, experience, strategic insight, but even factors as simply as mere physical force. I have never fought Pedro, but seeing how he works, what he does and what their focus was in training Kayla, I think it is safe to say that the man has enormous physical force. When you have that sort of force you also have a degree of explosiveness and confidence that simply as a person and athlete puts you into a category that comparing any mere mortal with that becomes an exercise in futility. It reminds me of a memorable session where I got into a big fight with Van De Walle who was 'teaching' ô-uchi-gari. With a single hand he pinned his uke on the tatami to the extent that the juice came out of any bodily orifice. You couldn't move if you would have used a crowbar. I told him I would have loved to see him try that on Khubuluri ...

    These videos are great to watch, so thank you for that, but for Christ's sake, let's be real or a second: THE ORIGNAL POSTER IS A 4th KYÛ !!

    beyondgrappling

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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by beyondgrappling on Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:43 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    beyondgrappling wrote:Jimmy Pedro has a great video youtube regarding how to get around the stiff arms

    Hope they helped you out

    What do you think the chances are a 4th kyû can even remotely replicate that what an ex-world champion and world class elite player does who coaches Olympic athletes ?  It isn't just a matter of technique, feeling, experience, strategic insight, but even factors as simply as mere physical force. I have never fought Pedro, but seeing how he works, what he does and what their focus was in training Kayla, I think it is safe to say that the man has enormous physical force. When you have that sort of force you also have a degree of explosiveness and confidence that simply as a person and athlete puts you into a category that comparing any mere mortal with that becomes an exercise in futility. It reminds me of a memorable session where I got into a big fight with Van De Walle who was 'teaching' ô-uchi-gari. With a single hand he pinned his uke on the tatami to the extent that the juice came out of any bodily orifice. You couldn't move if you would have used a crowbar. I told him I would have loved to see him try that on Khubuluri ...

    These videos are great to watch, so thank you for that, but for Christ's sake, let's be real or a second: THE ORIGNAL POSTER IS A 4th KYÛ !!


    G whizz calm down calm down. I apologise for posting 3 good instructionals that can assist in educating a fellow Judoka and other Judoka who may happen to come across this thread.
    I think the chances of a 4th Kyu performing any of these techniques is highly likely. In my experience having the attitude of "A student cannot do this or that" is a big flaw to have as a teacher, mentor, educator or coach. You do not know the original posters background and what he/she brings to the table, for all we know the OP could be an ex-collegiate wrestler now doing Judo and physically capable of tossing a few blackbelts around.

    So calm down and next time leave Jesus out of it Smile


    Ricebale

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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by Ricebale on Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:30 pm

    I do a lot of no jacket work specifically because I want guys to train to throw the body of the opponent and not play Frankensteins Monster style judo.

    In the case of an all jacket class I'd ask the coach for some tips.

    This will do two things, firstly your coach will give you some skills specific to your level and secondly it will bring the "stiff arms" issue to his attention. If he does not address the issue then your coach is inhibiting your learning.

    But as a general tip, first grip wins, be first, if not Dougs 2nd point works well Smile

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:42 pm

    beyondgrappling wrote:

    G whizz calm down calm down.  I apologise for posting 3 good instructionals that can assist in educating a fellow Judoka and other Judoka who may happen to come across this thread.
    I think the chances of a 4th Kyu performing any of these techniques is highly likely. In my experience having the attitude of "A student cannot do this or that" is a big flaw to have as a teacher, mentor, educator or coach.  You do not know the original posters background and what he/she brings to the table, for all we know the OP could be an ex-collegiate wrestler now doing Judo and physically capable of tossing a few blackbelts around.

    So calm down and next time leave Jesus out of it Smile


    Let's first get one thing out of the way: you're not in a position to tell me what to do or not to do, so no need to go there. I also assure you that there is no need for anyone to calm down, and that my sympathetic nervous system is in perfect homeostasis. There is also no need for cynicism. As much as I may not know the original poster's background neither do you, but it is likely that what he does bring to that table is closer to the average than that it is closer to the most from the average asymptotically remote option. I do not know what your experience is either, but since you are making a reference to that, if that experience implies --and I am assuming then that you are indeed a very experienced teacher of jûdô-- that you have the gift to commonly have novices master the sort of skills that world elite class jûdôka who have been training like professionals for years and who are both physically exceptionally talented. If so, then that is in itself highly remarkable. If so, so be it, but my experience and that of virtually every other experienced jûdô teacher I have met anywhere is quite different. Why it is different I do not know since I do not know either you nor the nature of your experience. In terms of "cannot do this or that", the first question to ask is "what is actually being done". Do you know what Jimmy Pedro is doing or do you think you know what he is doing ? The chances for someone with far less experience, such as in the case of a 4th kyû to know that are likely far less.

    It is quite intriguing to suggest that someone with likely very little experience would be able to already far more than what experienced instructors of jûdô might think (that what you call "having the attitude of") whereas in reality it is precisely the opposite and even jûdôka with considerable experience are often able to do "far less". In fact, just earlier today someone on this forum with +50 years of experience who started jûdô in Japan begin of the 1950s wrote a very honest post how despite all of the training they still could not do some of what they had hoped they one day might, and which they saw people of the class that appear in the videos you posted. I do not mean this cynically; it is honestly very intriguing.

    I devote quite a bit of my life and research to the pedagogy of jûdô as there are may didactic problems in skill transfer of jûdô, which is acknowledged by about every jûdô teacher. In essence rather than confirming those intrinsic didactic problems we all experience, you suggest that they are likely merely ephemeric and that in reality it may simply be a matter of the attitude of jûdô instructors who simply underestimate the skills of their beginners. This implies that for us rather than looking for ways to improve our didactic methods and pedagogy we should just shut up and let them do whatever and wait they likely will have the skills they don't exhibit. Personally, I find this logically incongruent. I quite regularly incorporate the problem of stiff-arming in my classes, showing students who 'easy' it is to deal with it if one understands 'jû'. You know how many can actually do it ? None, and there are many people far more experienced that 4th kyû. Even 3rd and 4th dan-holders can't do it. Of course there do exist people who can actually do that, and those are precisely the ones that grow out to become exceptional jûdôka not in the least because they literally have been able to develop the kind of jûdô skills that the majority does not have.

    I also would like to point out that I said that the videos were great to watch, and I also thanked you for posting them. What I said, or at least 'suggested', is that because of extreme differences between those demonstrating and the specific situation of the original poster, chances are that despite the intrinsic value of that video material it is likely to be of very little help to the poster. Even if he sees valuable strategies, chances are remote he will be able to pull them off. To some extent the problem presented is not very different from another poster who recently started a thread complaining about the attitude of a blackbelt who had hurt him and who wanted in a week or so to acquire sufficient skills to teach the black belt a lesson. The realistic answer to that problem was also quite simple: in your dreams.


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    Ricebale

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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by Ricebale on Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:45 pm



    This is a Sambo match I reffed last weekend, the Blue guy is a 2nd Dan Judo and the Red guy is a Mongolian Wrestler (Bokh), you can see at the beginning how red neutralises blues stiff arm by both moving and adjusting to strong other grips till he gets the balance broken.

    I'm not suggesting you use any of this technique, merely providing by way of example that if you play a different game on the attack the opponent.

    I used to grab their belt and pull them in, but not sure if you can do that in Judo anymore.

    Cheers

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:46 pm

    Ricebale wrote:I do a lot of no jacket work specifically because I want guys to train to throw the body of the opponent and not play Frankensteins Monster style judo.

    In the case of an all jacket class I'd ask the coach for some tips.

    This will do two things, firstly your coach will give you some skills specific to your level and secondly it will bring the "stiff arms" issue to his attention. If he does not address the issue then your coach is inhibiting your learning.

    But as a general tip, first grip wins, be first, if not Dougs 2nd point works well Smile

    Ricebale, could you please elaborate on how you perceive stiff-arming in one art compared to the other ? I would imagine that in no-jacket work it is "less of a problem" in the sense that it is 'expected' and doing so not 'improper' since it does not strive for 'jû' ? Would you agree with that ?

    I would also expect then that perhaps rather then 'pliability' your response in no-jacket wrestling to stiff-arming would be surprise, tricking someone (feigning), overpower the opponent, making him commit mistakes.


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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    Ricebale

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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by Ricebale on Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:52 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:I do a lot of no jacket work specifically because I want guys to train to throw the body of the opponent and not play Frankensteins Monster style judo.

    In the case of an all jacket class I'd ask the coach for some tips.

    This will do two things, firstly your coach will give you some skills specific to your level and secondly it will bring the "stiff arms" issue to his attention. If he does not address the issue then your coach is inhibiting your learning.

    But as a general tip, first grip wins, be first, if not Dougs 2nd point works well Smile

    Ricebale, could you please elaborate on how you perceive stiff-arming in one art compared to the other ?  I would imagine that in no-jacket work it is "less of a problem" in the sense that it is 'expected' and doing so not 'improper' since it does not strive for 'jû' ?  Would you agree with that ?

    I would also expect then that perhaps rather then 'pliability' your response in no-jacket wrestling to stiff-arming would be surprise, tricking someone (feigning), overpower the opponent, making him commit mistakes.

    In no jacket work it is very hard to stiff arm as the the arm slips off, so instead you learn tight body contact and head/arm control.

    The jacket is handles to grab onto thence lends itself to allowing stiff arms, stiff arms is the beginners trap and also Teddy Riners judo secret to olympic gold Smile

    Your observations on surprise are spot on, I call them "radical tactical attacks", basically don't play their game and get under/into the situation. My style is "pick up" so I learnt how to get inside stiff arms early on. That said Jimmy Pedro would be too strong and skilled for me Smile

    See the preceding Sambo clip in my comment for this style of radical tactical play

    sydvicious

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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by sydvicious on Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:00 pm

    Thanks to all for the responses so far! I tried Sode Tsuri Komi Goshi, but I couldn't lift his arm (I think it might have been because I tried lifting with my arm instead of bending my knees and lifting with my legs). The Makikomi sounds like an idea as well.



    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    I could start by providing all kinds of theoretical solutions, none of which will likely be effective at your level, so I am not going to do it and limit myself to saying that an astute sensei needs to take up his/her responsibility, watch his/her students and interfere and provide guidance where necessary.

    CK, I have nothing but high regard for my sensei (6th Dan). It just happened that he wasn't watching us at the time (he only has two eyes after all) and I just did not have time to speak to him after class. I am definately planning on talking to him about it on Monday night. I just thought, in the meantime, I would ask the opinion of experienced players, like yourself. Surely you have at least a couple of solutions that are not above my level of knowledge?

    PS: I'm not being sarcastic btw, I just value your opinion  Very Happy 


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:28 pm

    sydvicious wrote:Thanks to all for the responses so far! I tried Sode Tsuri Komi Goshi, but I couldn't lift his arm (I think it might have been because I tried lifting with my arm instead of bending my knees and lifting with my legs). The Makikomi sounds like an idea as well.



    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    I could start by providing all kinds of theoretical solutions, none of which will likely be effective at your level, so I am not going to do it and limit myself to saying that an astute sensei needs to take up his/her responsibility, watch his/her students and interfere and provide guidance where necessary.

    CK, I have nothing but high regard for my sensei (6th Dan). It just happened that he wasn't watching us at the time (he only has two eyes after all) and I just did not have time to speak to him after class. I am definately planning on talking to him about it on Monday night. I just thought, in the meantime, I would ask the opinion of experienced players, like yourself. Surely you have at least a couple of solutions that are not above my level of knowledge?

    PS: I'm not being sarcastic btw, I just value your opinion  Very Happy 

    I understand. By the way, I have nothing against fine quality sarcasm.

    To you question ...

    In 1961 Robert G. Blanchard published a book entitled "Mechanics Of Judo - Analytical Studies Of Selected Standing Techniques", that was published with Charles E. Tuttle, Inc. In the forward to his book Blanchard wrote: "It is so difficult at best to make a complex body movement intelligible through the medium of a book that a really adequate description of a given technique will usually confuse the novice rather than assist him. Furthermore, the subject of judo is so large that it is almost impossible to present the whole of it adequately in a single work of reasonable dimensions." (...)

    There is a lot of truth to that, and those restrictions also apply to a JudoForum, although there is a two-way direction communication.

    The arms are only extensions of the core, and it is the core (hara) that should be the center of kuzushi and tai-sabaki. This is a very difficult skill to develop and takes a very long time. The novice, and this even to the lower dan-grades, instead generate kuzushi solely from their arms and shoulders. In this way really often times one gets a gô vs gô action. This works, as long as the force you can generate to apply kuzushi exceeds that of the opponent, OR unless you can simply surprise him.

    At your level there are only two realistic and pedagogical was for dealing with the problem:

    1. To speed up the pace of the movement. The more dynamic and the faster you move over the tatami the more difficult it is for your opponent to maintain stiff-arming you without gaps, and the more mistakes he will make. Unfortunately the knife cuts both ways, and thus also the more mistakes you will make. However, as long as you determine the pace, you have an edge as you can anticipate better where you will move and thus can create opportunities to attempt a throw and surprise your opponent.

    2.To build up your tai-sabaki skills.and learn to use your core to dynamically move without letting yourself being seduced to respond to stiff-arming with stiff-arming.

    There is are two more options, but neither of them are constructive:

    1. To simply surprise your opponent. This will now and then occur even with poor judo and poor kuzushi and poor skills. It isn't constructive though as your techniques will be limited and over time your opponent will better know you limiting your chances for your to surprise him. The options novices often choose to achieve this is "dragging your opponent into the ground with poor technique". It will work now and then and also more advanced jûdôka use it sometimes; they then call it "take downs", which aren't really throws and which do not need to rely on the principles of jûdô. I discourage you from doing that

    2. You can power yourself up in the fitness, and lift as much weight as frequently as you can and develop blunt physical force. In this way you will be able to counter stiff-arming of anyone physically weaker than you (unless he really knows judo). It is not an option I recommend at all, but from an academic point of view I am just trying to be exhaustive in the option I mention.

    In attempting to encourage you to not revert to the last two options, I'd like to echo again what our good friend Hanon-sensei has often voiced on this forum, namely that the purpose of randori is to improve your technique, and not to get your opponent at all costs on the ground. If you don't succeed even once during a randori to get your opponent on the tatami but your tai-sabakie and kuzushi skills have improved you are doing something much more useful, then when you get your opponent 5 times on the tatami using nothing but blunt force or dragging him to tatami with nothing but body mass and strength.

    Good luck.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    sydvicious

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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by sydvicious on Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:43 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    sydvicious wrote:Thanks to all for the responses so far! I tried Sode Tsuri Komi Goshi, but I couldn't lift his arm (I think it might have been because I tried lifting with my arm instead of bending my knees and lifting with my legs). The Makikomi sounds like an idea as well.



    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    I could start by providing all kinds of theoretical solutions, none of which will likely be effective at your level, so I am not going to do it and limit myself to saying that an astute sensei needs to take up his/her responsibility, watch his/her students and interfere and provide guidance where necessary.

    CK, I have nothing but high regard for my sensei (6th Dan). It just happened that he wasn't watching us at the time (he only has two eyes after all) and I just did not have time to speak to him after class. I am definately planning on talking to him about it on Monday night. I just thought, in the meantime, I would ask the opinion of experienced players, like yourself. Surely you have at least a couple of solutions that are not above my level of knowledge?

    PS: I'm not being sarcastic btw, I just value your opinion  Very Happy 

    I understand. By the way, I have nothing against fine quality sarcasm.

    To you question ...

    In 1961 Robert G. Blanchard published a book entitled "Mechanics Of Judo - Analytical Studies Of Selected Standing Techniques", that was published with Charles E. Tuttle, Inc. In the forward to his book Blanchard wrote: "It is so difficult at best to make a complex body movement intelligible through the medium of a book that a really adequate description of a given technique will usually confuse the novice rather than assist him. Furthermore, the subject of judo is so large that it is almost impossible to present the whole of it adequately in a single work of reasonable dimensions." (...)

    There is a lot of truth to that, and those restrictions also apply to a JudoForum, although there is a two-way direction communication.

    The arms are only extensions of the core, and it is the core (hara) that should be the center of kuzushi and tai-sabaki. This is a very difficult skill to develop and takes a very long time. The novice, and this even to the lower dan-grades, instead generate kuzushi solely from their arms and shoulders. In this way really often times one gets a gô vs gô action. This works, as long as the force you can generate to apply kuzushi exceeds that of the opponent, OR unless you can simply surprise him.

    At your level there are only two realistic and pedagogical was for dealing with the problem:

    1. To speed up the pace of the movement. The more dynamic and the faster you move over the tatami the more difficult it is for your opponent to maintain stiff-arming you without gaps, and the more mistakes he will make. Unfortunately the knife cuts both ways, and thus also the more mistakes you will make. However, as long as you determine the pace, you have an edge as you can anticipate better where you will move and thus can create opportunities to attempt a throw and surprise your opponent.

    2.To build up your tai-sabaki skills.and learn to use your core to dynamically move without letting yourself being seduced to respond to stiff-arming with stiff-arming.

    There is are two more options, but neither of them are constructive:

    1. To simply surprise your opponent. This will now and then occur even with poor judo and poor kuzushi and poor skills. It isn't constructive though as your techniques will be limited and over time your opponent will better know you limiting your chances for your to surprise him. The options novices often choose to achieve this is "dragging your opponent into the ground with poor technique". It will work now and then and also more advanced jûdôka use it sometimes; they then call it "take downs", which aren't really throws and which do not need to rely on the principles of jûdô. I discourage you from doing that

    2. You can power yourself up in the fitness, and lift as much weight as frequently as you can and develop blunt physical force. In this way you will be able to counter stiff-arming of anyone physically weaker than you (unless he really knows judo). It is not an option I recommend at all, but from an academic point of view I am just trying to be exhaustive in the option I mention.

    In attempting to encourage you to not revert to the last two options, I'd like to echo again what our good friend Hanon-sensei has often voiced on this forum, namely that the purpose of randori is to improve your technique, and not to get your opponent at all costs on the ground. If you don't succeed even once during a randori to get your opponent on the tatami but your tai-sabakie and kuzushi skills have improved you are doing something much more useful, then when you get your opponent 5 times on the tatami using nothing but blunt force or dragging him to tatami with nothing but body mass and strength.

    Good luck.

    Thanks for that. What you said about movement makes sense, as I can recall not moving at all. I was just trying to get past his arms, instead of moving and working with angles.


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    afja_lm139

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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by afja_lm139 on Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:09 am

    I may have gone a little to forward in the training (gokyonowaza) with you with Sode Tsuri Komi Goshi, forgetting it is a more advanced technique for your training level.  But, soon you will get to it. Smile The illustrations used were to give you a little hint as to what to try out.  You are probably familiar with seionage by now, so another method I used against a larger guy who tended to stiff arm was to bring both his arms together as close as possible and then bending my knees grasp both arms right above the elbows then position both arms over your shoulder, like carrying a load of wood logs, then go in for either a modified tai otoshi, seio otoshi, seoi nage or something close to those throws.  Remember, by bring his straight arms together do not force him down or lift yourself up my this method.  Always make yourself heavier and the opponent lighter by using his strength against him.  Hard to describe in words.

    George Harris, a big guy that I would randori with in the past, used an unusual way to do tai otoshi.  He called it tai seoi otoshi and you can imagine how that went.  He towered over me, but never the less could get under me with that throw and over I would go, without his strength that he obviously could have used against me.  The moral of that diatribe is that even a huge Judoka can use pure technique against anyone.  Seoinage and taiotoshi are great techniques to master, especially in your level now.  As time goes by you will appreciate the difference between these techniques and the similarities as well.

    sydvicious

    Posts : 78
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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by sydvicious on Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:29 am

    afja_lm139 wrote:I may have gone a little to forward in the training (gokyonowaza) with you with Sode Tsuri Komi Goshi, forgetting it is a more advanced technique for your training level.  But, soon you will get to it. Smile The illustrations used were to give you a little hint as to what to try out.  You are probably familiar with seionage by now, so another method I used against a larger guy who tended to stiff arm was to bring both his arms together as close as possible and then bending my knees grasp both arms right above the elbows then position both arms over your shoulder, like carrying a load of wood logs, then go in for either a modified tai otoshi, seio otoshi, seoi nage or something close to those throws.  Remember, by bring his straight arms together do not force him down or lift yourself up my this method.  Always make yourself heavier and the opponent lighter by using his strength against him.  Hard to describe in words.

    George Harris, a big guy that I would randori with in the past, used an unusual way to do tai otoshi.  He called it tai seoi otoshi and you can imagine how that went.  He towered over me, but never the less could get under me with that throw and over I would go, without his strength that he obviously could have used against me.  The moral of that diatribe is that even a huge Judoka can use pure technique against anyone.  Seoinage and taiotoshi are great techniques to master, especially in your level now.  As time goes by you will appreciate the difference between these techniques and the similarities as well.

    I am familiar with Sode Tsuri Komi Goshi. It is one of my favourates to practice on the crashmats! But I am yet to pull it of in randori, but I think I know what I'm doing wrong, as I've said previously. I will also keep in mind what you said about bringing his arms together. Thanks  thumbs 


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:35 am

    sydvicious wrote:
    I am familiar with Sode Tsuri Komi Goshi. It is one of my favourates to practice on the crashmats! But I am yet to pull it of in randori, but I think I know what I'm doing wrong, as I've said previously. I will also keep in mind what you said about bringing his arms together. Thanks  thumbs 

    Now we are getting somewhere ! You are used to ... crashmats !! And you wonder why you have difficulties getting passed stiff arms !!! What did you expect ?*  cheers 



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    sydvicious

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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by sydvicious on Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:41 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    sydvicious wrote:
    I am familiar with Sode Tsuri Komi Goshi. It is one of my favourates to practice on the crashmats! But I am yet to pull it of in randori, but I think I know what I'm doing wrong, as I've said previously. I will also keep in mind what you said about bringing his arms together. Thanks  thumbs 

    Now we are getting somewhere !  You are used to ... crashmats !!  And you wonder why you have difficulties getting passed stiff arms !!!  What did you expect ?*   cheers 



    _______________
    *just kidding.

     Laughing 

    Crashmats is only the last 20 mins of class once a week!

    To be honest, I have not tried too many times in randori, because (correct me if I'm wrong) it is also one of those throws where you can do some damage to uke if you don't do it properly.


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    DougNZ

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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by DougNZ on Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:52 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    It will work now and then and also more advanced jûdôka use it sometimes; they then call it "take downs", which aren't really throws and which do not need to rely on the principles of jûdô. I discourage you from doing that.

    This is a judo forum so I always have to be careful what I say; I'm sure I push things too much too often as it is ... but what I have to say always applies to judo, if sometimes obtusely.

    I learn and practice an unconventional style of ju-jitsu which has clinching at the heart of its style. After about a year the new pupil will have learnt the basic clinches and their associated tips, arches and some throws. We then move onto broken clinches which work more at the conventional 'judo distance' though our binding is often different. Our style also teaches predominantly by principles and at this stage we reinforce many of the core principles of ju-jitsu (and hence judo). So, from clinching, for example, if uke separates and applies force (in whatever direction), we learn to work around that force using good tai sabaki, and from new positions and angles put uke into a state of kuzushi. Often we use 'blanketing', which is putting uke into these awkward positions and then being 'soft' and 'heavy', and waiting for uke to show us where he wants to be taken down to. We oblige with the use of hips and waist. This is not a spectacular way of putting uke on the ground but it is sophisticated and subtle, and employs the highest principles of ju-jitsu and judo. It really is "Maximum Efficiency with Minimum Effort". This form of takedown is also a 'safe' way to control uke and fits the "Mutual Welfare and Benefit" model of judo, what we refer to as "generosity of spirit". Despite being a fighting art, we prefer not to 'smash' uke. Such takedowns are not judo and may not have a place in the judo dojo but they most definitely do - or should - rely on the principles of judo. I believe judoka could learn a lot from experiencing them.

    Cichorei Kano wrote: ... I'd like to echo again what our good friend Hanon-sensei has often voiced on this forum, namely that the purpose of randori is to improve your technique, and not to get your opponent at all costs on the ground. If you don't succeed even once during a randori to get your opponent on the tatami but your tai-sabakie (sic) and kuzushi skills have improved you are doing something much more useful, then when you get your opponent 5 times on the tatami using nothing but blunt force or dragging him to tatami with nothing but body mass and strength.

    I could not agree more.

    medo

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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by medo on Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:51 am

    Hi Sid,

    I noticed your from the UK.  Can I ask as a 4th kyu has your early teaching mainly been, ukemi, happo no kuzushi, tai sabaki?
    or has it been more kumi kata, emphasis on speed and combinations(ranaku waza ect)?

    How do your normal lessons breakdown say 10minute warm up 10minute ukemi ect or is it completely different?

    To be honest waza such as tsuri komi goshi tends to be shown at 3rd/2nd kyu. As you are practicing this at 4th kyu you may be running before you have learnt to walk!

    Stiff arming tends to happen with beginner students who are afraid of being thrown, while a crash mat centers around your main training then stiff arming will occur for a long time with the beginners in your club, which may hinder your progress, particularly if the others in you club are heavier/stronger than you.

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:40 am

    DougNZ wrote:
    This is a judo forum so I always have to be careful what I say; I'm sure I push things too much too often as it is ... but what I have to say always applies to judo, if sometimes obtusely.

    I learn and practice an unconventional style of ju-jitsu which has clinching at the heart of its style.  After about a year the new pupil will have learnt the basic clinches and their associated tips, arches and some throws.  We then move onto broken clinches which work more at the conventional 'judo distance' though our binding is often different.  Our style also teaches predominantly by principles and at this stage we reinforce many of the core principles of ju-jitsu (and hence judo).  So, from clinching, for example, if uke separates and applies force (in whatever direction), we learn to work around that force using good tai sabaki, and from new positions and angles put uke into a state of kuzushi. Often we use 'blanketing', which is putting uke into these awkward positions and then being 'soft' and 'heavy', and waiting for uke to show us where he wants to be taken down to.  We oblige with the use of hips and waist.  This is not a spectacular way of putting uke on the ground but it is sophisticated and subtle, and employs the highest principles of ju-jitsu and judo.  It really is "Maximum Efficiency with Minimum Effort".  This form of takedown is also a 'safe' way to control uke and fits the "Mutual Welfare and Benefit" model of judo, what we refer to as "generosity of spirit".  Despite being a fighting art, we prefer not to 'smash' uke.  Such takedowns are not judo and may not have a place in the judo dojo but they most definitely do - or should - rely on the principles of judo.  I believe judoka could learn a lot from experiencing them.

    Sure. The problem is that jûdôka will keep grabbing to what works, especially since randori is mostly conducted as home competition without ref. If a novice jûdôka is able to get his opponent on the ground with a "take-down", that's what he is going, hence often failing to learn the basics of proper standing throws, and everything that comes with it such as debana and tai-sabaki. For that reason such take-downs pedagogically do not really belong in the novice curriculum.

    It reminds me of many, many years ago when I was still a blue belt and I visited for the first time what later would be my third home club. The club had and awesome female blackbelt who just kicked my ass. I saw every corner of the dôjô. I was too slow, too untechnical, simply too incompetent to even threaten her. In the end, because I couldn't take the humiliation anymore, what did I do ? I jumped in a kani-basami and threw her flat on the ground. She was not happy ? Why was she not happy, because an idiot like me had just threatened her competitive career by potentially having ripped apart her knees (which I did not).

    As much as kani-basami is a jûdô throw, I wasn't doing any jûdô. What I was doing was despair, something to save my ego from being humiliated by a woman who was much better than me. It was all testosterone and all I wanted was to win, because that was the only thing in randori that counted for me.

    What I should have done, was to appreciate this fine private lesson of jûdô that I was being taught ... the hard way. I did appreciate it, but only many, many years later. Luckily training with her the next years did exactly that and improved my jûdô techniue and actually made me very technical. If anything in jûdô teaching, I try to assist my students in avoiding to mae some of the mistakes, especially the worst mistakes I made myself. I got injured badly on my elbows several times because I refused to tap out in armbars during competition. I do not teach my students to not tap out; on the contrary, I teach them to tap out and avoid injuries. It's like a being a parent, you want to protect them. You can't protct them from everything, and some mistakes kids and your students HAVE to make to build experience, but they do not need to make ALL the mistakes we made.

    In the example you gave you were describing yourself. You are youself not a novice but an experience jûdôka. The equation is different. I learnt "take-downs" primarily from Han Ho San and from Alexander Iatskevitch. It was all technique not force, but I also build practice in those things against some Russians, and it sure wasn't all technique what all of the did. The best did, those who were not the very best, just like other jûdôka compensated in the usual way, with force. It's no surprise, just like I have seen other jûdôka perfectly throw an opponent flat on their back from a standing throw that was everything except jûdô. I have seen Iliadis do several of those things, even where the opponent would be completely resisting, hanging to his back, blunt pure force would pull him in, completely overpower him and then throw him in something that mimicked a jûdô technique but that was everything except for jûdô.. As teachers it is a fine line to walk, although for the competitive athlete it does not matter, as long as he wins.


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    Ricebale

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    Location : Wollongong Australia

    Re: Stiff arms!

    Post by Ricebale on Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:50 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:

    Ricebale, could you please elaborate on how you perceive stiff-arming in one art compared to the other ?  I would imagine that in no-jacket work it is "less of a problem" in the sense that it is 'expected' and doing so not 'improper' since it does not strive for 'jû' ?  Would you agree with that ?

    I would also expect then that perhaps rather then 'pliability' your response in no-jacket wrestling to stiff-arming would be surprise, tricking someone (feigning), overpower the opponent, making him commit mistakes.

    Mr Kano,

    I remembered I had a video of myself competing a couple of years ago under the old rules system of Judo against a very powerful foreign Judoka, (we are being reffed here by a 5th or 6th Dan from a Japanese University club and the officials chair had older more senior judoka from Japan so I felt quite privileged to compete). You will see I am not playing conventional Judo but rather my own style which uses "surprise, tricking someone (feigning), overpower the opponent, making him commit mistakes." I do not understand all of what 'jû' is but every person of skill who has trained with me invariably comment that my wrestling style is very energy efficient which I think is part of this.

    My opponent was attempting to use his superior size, strength and experience to stiff arm me into a mistake. In his prior matches on the day he stiff armed to unchi mata everyone else in under a minute. I employed my radical tactical adjustment theory and engaged him in a manner which did not rely on grip against grip fighting but rather deflection of power, angles and speed. It is the first match in this vid:



    For the OP the key for me is to not let them settle the stiff arm before you move the shoulder they are gripping either under them or backwards as you twist your body, lesson for me is you cannot fight superior power with inferior power so do something else.

    Cheers

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