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    US Judo breaks the rules and extends weigh-ins for an athlete at the Scholastic (Jr. World Trials)

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    billyvidal

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    US Judo breaks the rules and extends weigh-ins for an athlete at the Scholastic (Jr. World Trials)

    Post by billyvidal on Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:04 pm

    I was informed by Mr. Jose Rodriguez (CEO USA Judo) to file a grievance after his denial of wrong doing on what I believe was an obvious rule violation as it pertains to USA Judo as well as IJF standards for weight declaration and proper procedures at Official Weigh-ins. In the situation I speak of an athlete was given an (Extended Weigh-in time) This is not, nor has it ever been in the rules of competition. I have provided a chronological time line of the US Scholastic National Judo Championship. This is also the Jr. World Championship team selection.

    1. Official Weigh-ins ended at 4:00pm on Friday March 21,2014 (Gabriela Prado did not make weight)

    2. Gabriela Prado's coach informed Corrine Shigemoto (COO USA Judo) they needed extra time to make weight because of a delayed flight.

    3. At 4:20pm Gabriela Prado stepped on the Official Scale and was still .4kg over. We have a wittiness that was in the room and they are willing to make a formal statement. But regardless of that, it is stated in the rules the Athlete only gets one opportunity on the Official Scale.

    4. On Friday, the night of the draws Grace Jividen brought up the subject of someone not making weight, immediately Jhonny Prado (one of Gabriela's Coaches) jumped up and said she did make weight. Information was presented to Pat Burris (USA Judo Coach Rep) and he then presented the question to Corrine Shigemoto “Did Gabriela Prado make weight?" Her response was Gabriela did make weight but she was given an extension because her flight was delayed (this was stated to everyone in the entire coaches meeting).

    5. On Saturday as rumors began to swirl a Facebook posting by Gabriela shows her at the DFW airport at around 10:15am on Friday March 21, 2014, this picture was then sent out to other coaches. As more information began to surface, speculation began to build. It was now obvious her flight was in Texas long before Registration and Official weigh-ins were over.

    6. On Sunday the situation was now at a fevers pitch. It was reported to coaches that the tournament director and his staff closed weigh-ins at 4:00pm knowing full well Gabriela Prado DID NOT make weight. They were told by Corrine Shigemoto she would weigh-in Gabriel, much to the demise of the Registration and Weight in staff as well as the tournament director. After competition was complete I presented my case to Corrine Shigemoto and Jose Rodriquez their response was US Judo has extended weigh-ins in the past for athlete who's flights were delayed and or stuck in customs. I then informed them that Gabriela was in fact in Texas before registration and weigh-ins had concluded. They both looked dumbfounded by this information, but stuck to their guns that USA Judo has extended weigh-ins in the past. note: it was brought to my attention that this extension has been given in the past to athletes that have had a delayed flight or customs issues, but that athlete was never given the opportunity to run or lose weight before stepping on the scale. The athlete would rush from the airport and walk directly into weigh-ins without the opportunity to check weight and never an opportunity to lose weight. (This is unprecedented)

    7. On Monday after returning home I was bombarded with emails, photos and statements concerning this situation from coaches all over the country. I also reach out to Jim Hrbek to find the proper channels to file a grievance. I was advise by some not pursue this because of a fear of retaliation and speak to Corrine Shigemoto. I personally made a decision to let Willy Cahill (Former Olympic and Para Olympic Coach) speak to Corrine as she was a former student of his in hopes she would do the right thing. In her brief conversation with Willy Cahill she pointed out a disclaimer in the tournament entry form that stated “The Tournament Director reserves the right to make all final decisions regarding this event” then put the extended weigh-in on Tournament Director Burt Becerra saying the tournament director can extend the weigh-ins if he so desires. I immediately reached out to Burt and he sent me a message vehemently denying he extending the weigh-in for Gabriela with a resounding NO WAY. I have all of this documented, I have Facebook photo's of Gabriela time stamped in DFW Texas Airport before registration began and I have the tournament directors direct contradiction of what Corrine Shigemoto stated to Willy Cahill that Burt Becerra extended the weigh-in.

    If we as coaches and athletes don’t have faith in our governing body with the basic procedures of registration and weigh-ins, our sport will lose all credibility as well as our governing body.


    Thank you

    William Worthington

    http://mailr.usoc.com/USA-Judo/Features/2014/March/10/Weigh-In-and-Draw-Change?fb_action_ids=10203403004413696&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_ref=.UzDRCpHh4Tk.like&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582
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    finarashi

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    Re: US Judo breaks the rules and extends weigh-ins for an athlete at the Scholastic (Jr. World Trials)

    Post by finarashi on Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:54 am

    Unfortunate incident and if pursued then the only decision that can be done is to declare that Gabriela Prado did not make weight.
    1. Claim that someone has previously been allowed extra time does not necessarily apply as that would mean the case should be similar and also that no changes to weigh in rules have been made in between.
    2. To me to claim that "if somebody at some point of time before the official weigh in has had a delayed flight and needs extra time" he/she should be granted unlimited extra time and unlimited extra weigh in sound not quite to my liking.
    3. If an official lies about the official procedure done during e.g. weigh in then IMHO he/she should be suspended from such duties.
    4. It might be the case that if the tournament director has deemed that the athlete is able to attend then that is that in spite of the dubious conditions leading to this.
    5. In spite of the actual results then any athlete should be able to state that the result should not be counted for qualification because of the problems in the weigh in.


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    billyvidal

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    Re: US Judo breaks the rules and extends weigh-ins for an athlete at the Scholastic (Jr. World Trials)

    Post by billyvidal on Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:22 pm

    I have now heard of an internal email that is going around the board of the directors and the new information is Corrine Shigemoto has named herself (Tournament Director) and with that title and a very broad disclaimer "The Tournament Director reserves the right to make all final decisions regarding this event." Her stance is she now didn't extend weigh-ins because of a flight delay (because we have evidence its not true) her claim is she extended the weight in because the coach asked for one???? Have we all lost our minds, so if a coach asks for an extension we just give it to them. Good luck American Judo Athletes... no time limit on weight-ins!

    samsmith2424

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    Re: US Judo breaks the rules and extends weigh-ins for an athlete at the Scholastic (Jr. World Trials)

    Post by samsmith2424 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:07 pm

    I don't understand the fuss!

    billyvidal

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    Re: US Judo breaks the rules and extends weigh-ins for an athlete at the Scholastic (Jr. World Trials)

    Post by billyvidal on Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:24 am

    The fuss is they gave and extended weigh-in at the Jr. World Selection event to an athlete so they could make weight AFTER the official weigh-ins were over.
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    FightingSpirit

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    Re: US Judo breaks the rules and extends weigh-ins for an athlete at the Scholastic (Jr. World Trials)

    Post by FightingSpirit on Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:15 pm

    William/Billy,
    Welcome to the E-Judo Forum...   Appreciate your insight, enthusiasm, and initiative.  
    Given the magnitude of the topic/content embedded within your post I would kindly refer you to the Forum Guidelines (see tab above).  Which includes two items for consideration...
    Forum Guidelines: wrote: You must not:
    •Create threads or make posts purely to target an emotional response from members of the community
    •Post personal information of others without permission.

    IMHO, maybe the Junior Athlete's identity could have been omitted with the same effect/result?  

    So, according to the results posted on USA Judo, the Jr Female athlete competed in two divisions Juv B, and IJF in the same weight class.  This event allowed for one weigh-in for two divisions over consecutive days...  The results also indicate that the same two girls finished 1st and 2nd in both divisions, with the 2nd place finisher being from Cahill's Judo Academy...  

    The good news is that there are two slots available - one for both of these top two athletes: one for Cadet and one for Junior Worlds, with an individual limited to accepting only one age group.  Point being it would appear that both athletes will be afforded the opportunity to represent the US at one of these Cadet/Junior World events.  

    Does not having the 1st place Juv B female pass on the Cadet World spot have the same effect as your intention to have her DQ'd from this event for the benefit of Cahill's athlete to participate at the Cadet World event?

    After thinking thru the sequence of events it would seem that a reasonable resolution should be based upon the two weighins you cited...  IE if DQing the 1st place finisher for Juv B event based upon her first weighin, and counting her 2nd weighin toward her IJF event weighin...   It would seem that she demonstrated that she is capable of making the weight for the IJF weighin period, which was held the next day - but was she afforded the opportunity to weighin on Sat to fight Sunday?  If not, maybe this is an unfortunate bi-product of un-written assumptions implied in the intended benefit 'one weighin allowed' for two divisions fought over consecutive days...   No fault of the child if there was a missed opportunity to have her legitimately re-weigh on Sat for IJF - adults are responsible for the unfortunate complexity for how the rules were written and implemented to address the specified and implied consequences/resolutions for the benefits associated with one vs two or even seperate weighin opportunities for two seperate divisions...  

    In the end, unless I am missing something the two best female athletes will be representing the US in this weight division at both Cadet and Junior Worlds.  
    I guess the beef remains who deserves to represent the US in which of the two age groups (Cadets vs Worlds)?


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    finarashi

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    Re: US Judo breaks the rules and extends weigh-ins for an athlete at the Scholastic (Jr. World Trials)

    Post by finarashi on Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:34 pm

    FightingSpirit wrote:William/Billy,
    Welcome to the E-Judo Forum...  
    FightingSpirit, you try to myuddle the waters. Never, ever should you bend the rules so that someone (even if she/he deserves the place) is given unfair advantage. Give me one good reason why someone should be given preferable tratment and someone not?


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    samsmith2424

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    Re: US Judo breaks the rules and extends weigh-ins for an athlete at the Scholastic (Jr. World Trials)

    Post by samsmith2424 on Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:39 pm

    I still don't understand the fuss!
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    FightingSpirit

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    Re: US Judo breaks the rules and extends weigh-ins for an athlete at the Scholastic (Jr. World Trials)

    Post by FightingSpirit on Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:48 pm

    finarashi wrote:
    Even Professors Make Mistakes?
    Rules are rules...  Not trying to confuse the issue, nor am I trying to serve as judge and jury...  Unfortunately, there are always two sides to every story,...  so I took the time to look over the registration packet and results to provide the additional information to help fill in the blanks...  
    Possible loop hole?
    Registration Packet wrote:
    Weigh-In: "Athletes competing in two categories on seperate days need only to weigh-in one time prior to their first day of competition."

    This reads more of a guideline than a rule/requirement/regulation - which affords wider interpretation relative to the Official Weighin dates/times for the two divisions...

    Official Juv-B weighins were Friday March 21, JUV-B fought on Sat...
    Official IJF weighins were Saturday March 22, IJF fought on Sun...

    It would appear that the spirit and intent of the newly written/implemented rules mentioned by the OP were for the purpose of expediting the draws process on one night to avoid having to conduct draws on two consecutive evenings...  

    Not looking to side-step the rules, but as written (in total) they are confusing/contradicting - allowing opportunity for interpretation...   Seems to provide evidence (albiet limited) for potential mitigating circumstances to avoid hasty judgement to jump to the implicit recommendations of double jeopardy against the junior female athlete...


    Last edited by FightingSpirit on Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:00 pm; edited 2 times in total


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    BillC

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    Re: US Judo breaks the rules and extends weigh-ins for an athlete at the Scholastic (Jr. World Trials)

    Post by BillC on Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:25 am

    Some things I don't get ...

    - Why are their "world trials" for children in the first place? That's a rhetorical question. Or at least it is unlikely that anyone really committed to the concept will change their mind because of anything they read here so why bother arguing.

    - Did the extension actually give any advantage? For example, did a student of Mr. Worthington lose to Ms. Prado? Sorry, I am too lazy to look it up.

    These two things are related. If it were not such a big deal, then it wouldn't really matter, right? To me the root problem is this projection of a sports entertainment business as something important and worthwhile to children. It would be laughable if it didn't actually damage children in the process ... starting with the whole concept of weight divisions among children, especially girls ... and going on to the "win at all costs but don't get caught" ethic that already serves as the true principle of judo being promoted these days.

    If it weren't all made so terribly important by adults, who need kids' judo both as a funding source and as a way to perpetuate and the business of Olympic jacket wrestling, then it would just be kids training hard and doing their best in playing the kids game of judo against each other.

    Were their tears? Did someone cry "that's not fair!" Well, it's not, and that's the true nature of the world and a good lesson learned.


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    beyondgrappling

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    Re: US Judo breaks the rules and extends weigh-ins for an athlete at the Scholastic (Jr. World Trials)

    Post by beyondgrappling on Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:27 am

    A few years ago at an IJF tournament we were locked out of the weigh in room for around 20 minutes and no one had access to the scales. After being let in a coach asked the tournament director to extend the weigh in for an extra 20 minutes because we only had 40 mins to weight etc.
    The IJF tournament director stood firm and stated that there is no way he can extend the weigh in because the weigh in was set for 6-7am and not a minute after. He continued to say that anyone who weighted after 7am will be disqualified from participation.

    In the case mentioned here I believe the people who let the athlete weigh in after weigh in had closed should be taken to a judiciary and banned from facilitating a weigh in in the future.

    We need to stick by the rules so thats it is fair to everyone.


    Last edited by beyondgrappling on Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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    afulldeck

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    Re: US Judo breaks the rules and extends weigh-ins for an athlete at the Scholastic (Jr. World Trials)

    Post by afulldeck on Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:51 am

    BillC wrote:Some things I don't get ...

    -  Why are their "world trials" for children in the first place?  That's a rhetorical question.  Or at least it is unlikely that anyone really committed to the concept will change their mind because of anything they read here so why bother arguing.

    Were their tears?  Did someone cry "that's not fair!"  Well, it's not, and that's the true nature of the world and a good lesson learned.

    I don't think its rhetorical in the least. Its silly that there are "world trials" for children. I just don't get it. Next we will have 6 year old 7th dans....


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    Heisenberg

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    Re: US Judo breaks the rules and extends weigh-ins for an athlete at the Scholastic (Jr. World Trials)

    Post by Heisenberg on Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:18 am

    afulldeck wrote:
    BillC wrote:Some things I don't get ...

    -  Why are their "world trials" for children in the first place?  That's a rhetorical question.  Or at least it is unlikely that anyone really committed to the concept will change their mind because of anything they read here so why bother arguing.

    Were their tears?  Did someone cry "that's not fair!"  Well, it's not, and that's the true nature of the world and a good lesson learned.

    I don't think its rhetorical in the least. Its silly that there are "world trials" for children. I just don't get it. Next we will have 6 year old 7th dans....

    Children compete at a high level in many sports, and many of the . Should they not be afforded fair and equal rule enforcement just because they are juveniles? They work very hard to compete at that level, regardless of how trivial some people feel their efforts are.


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    BillC

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    Re: US Judo breaks the rules and extends weigh-ins for an athlete at the Scholastic (Jr. World Trials)

    Post by BillC on Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:03 pm

    Heisenberg wrote:
    Children compete at a high level in many sports, and many of the . Should they not be afforded fair and equal rule enforcement just because they are juveniles? They work very hard to compete at that level, regardless of how trivial some people feel their efforts are.

    At the risk of entering an argument I just said I would not ... no one here is questioning the efforts of these kids ... and no one is saying that rules should not apply for all ... it is the fact that their efforts are not trivial that disturbs me personally.


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    afulldeck

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    Re: US Judo breaks the rules and extends weigh-ins for an athlete at the Scholastic (Jr. World Trials)

    Post by afulldeck on Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:22 am

    [quote="BillC"]
    Heisenberg wrote:
    .... it is the fact that their efforts are not trivial that disturbs me personally.  

    Me as well. I don't understand how adults put kids into this type of a situation. In particular, no child should be cutting weight for any competition.

    They are kids for crying out loud not images of little "men and women" to live vicariously through. Kids should come to judo for fun, learn to love the sport, deal with the idea of being thrown then get back up....competition should be fun for them. Not a world championship.


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    BillC

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    Re: US Judo breaks the rules and extends weigh-ins for an athlete at the Scholastic (Jr. World Trials)

    Post by BillC on Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:18 am

    afulldeck wrote:
    Me as well. I don't understand how adults put kids into this type of a situation. In particular, no child should be cutting weight for any competition.

    They are kids for crying out loud not images of little "men and women" to live vicariously through. Kids should come to judo for fun, learn to love the sport, deal with the idea of being thrown then get back up....competition should be fun for them. Not a world championship.

    Necessary note for context:  Five year olds are kids.  Fifteen year olds are kids.  Eighteen year olds, even twenty year olds are kids in my eyes if not in the eyes of the law ... twenty five ... just starting to really grow up.  That's what I mean by kids.

    Not by coincidence perhaps ... got into a conversation on this topic last evening after practice in the yellow shed during our usual re-hydration session.  Came up along the lines of "how can I help teach kids good fundamentals of competitive judo, who can we identify within our club as ready and willing."  This from a very credible an respected former international player who dedicated his childhood and young adult years to the sport of judo, a young gentleman recently returning to the club after living elsewhere for a few years.  So there I was, helping him out by explaining the structure of the current program, its shortcomings, and where he might best begin finding kids and parents willing to support a more focused effort.  I gave encouragement to the idea.  In other words, I might be fairly accused of hypocritically feeding "the machine."

    Here's my rationalization:  There is nothing wrong with kids learning good judo and competing, at an appropriate level and in appropriate circumstances.  In fact, the better the judo the better.  I find no conflict with my understanding of the goals, principles and traditional methods of judo if fundamental physical skills are tied to learning commitment and increasing self control.

    Separately, we were discussing "the rules" and how complicated they have become, and to what purpose.  Among other things I pointed out that if one starts with the supposition that the goal of the activity is gold, silver or bronze ... that this sets into motion a system which often does not match those of judo.  Not just in an abstract, feely kind of way but in the very real choices involved in "OK, what should we do today?"  I humbly asked "how would your judo career have been affected if there were no gold, silver, bronze?  What if, for example, you'd have been pleased once to hear from the announcer that you had just gone through ten opponents before finally being made to sit down."  Going on "would the rules need to be different if the need to distill the gold medal required a win by wazaari or ippon, if someone ... no matter how well favored ... had to sit down for failure to achieve a large, positive point?"  What if even "winners" lost regularly?

    I don't know what we have here in the OP, I don't know the individuals involved though their commitment and hard work is clearly evident as is the potential ... the inevitability ... of severe disappointment.  What is equally clear is that if the incident took place then it had something to do with gold.  "My student unfairly lost their chance at gold." <=> "If she doesn't make weight the US loses its best chance at gold."  Stuff like that.  The Olympic system ... even setting aside the money-driven circus it has become ... from the inception creates this built in conflict which occurs even before a child takes that first step on the mat.

    And yes, I have been through this with my own.  Nothing but gold is good enough, that 4th place finals individual finish senior year ... out of hundreds or even thousands of kids ... gets angrily tossed in the trash.  Any joy for the the silver in the relay eclipsed.  The chance in the year before to be in the pool along side Kitajima and Phelps forgotten.  So much hard work and accomplishment lost.  To lay this all in heavy doses on kids ... wow.

    You can tell kids it does not matter, that they did good just by getting as far as they did, that you are proud of them, down seven up eight, etc. but they are far too perceptive to believe it ...


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