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    Tsuri-komi-goshi

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    Cichorei Kano

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    Tsuri-komi-goshi

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:14 am

    Historic footage of tsuri-komi-goshi (note the authentic jûdô tatami). The hidari-ô-uch-gari shown in the clip is not of the same technical standards and should not be emulated.



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    samsmith2424

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    Re: Tsuri-komi-goshi

    Post by samsmith2424 on Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:51 am

    What I am not clear about is that in the video of bio mechanics you put up, I am sure it criticised stepping back after seionage as a sign of poor kuzushi.

    However, here in tsurikomi goshi the player steps back after throwing. I assume this is not because of poor kuzushi. What has changed? Is it just because the throws have different bio mechanics or was the bio mechanic video incorrect in its assertion (as I think I remember) that it was a sign of poor kuzushi after seionage to step back after throwing.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Tsuri-komi-goshi

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:32 am

    samsmith2424 wrote:What I am not clear about is that in the video of bio mechanics you put up, I am sure it criticised stepping back after seionage as a sign of poor kuzushi.

    However, here in tsurikomi goshi the player steps back after throwing. I assume this is not because of poor kuzushi.  What has changed? Is it just because the throws have different bio mechanics or was the bio mechanic video incorrect in its assertion (as I think I remember) that it was a sign of poor kuzushi after seionage to step back after throwing.


    Before addressing the contents of your post, I must clarify that the fact that I post a link to something does not imply at all that I endorse or agree with its contents.  I regularly post links of items I totally disagree with or which I find complete nonsense. In many cases I will avoid commenting, and this for a number of reasons. One of the reasons is avoiding to set a negative tone, but also because we have learnt from our experiences working with this or the former judo forum and our comments have an educational purpose rather than turning every thread into a litany of "can you do it better" or clashes between personal friendships and objective assessment of technical quality, and similar. It's wasting energy, and besides I think it is useful for people to also form their own opinions.

    We strive --hopefully-- towards excellent or perfect judo technique. But in a dynamic situation when working with a noncooperative partner applying perfect judo technique requires high skill. Consequently, oftentimes we compensate our lack of technical perfection by all kinds of things; 'ken-ken' and 'makikomi' are tools that are frequently used to salvage an otherwise failed technique.

    My comment on the situation you describe is that tsuri-komi-goshi from a scientific point of view is a lever throw. In order to be successful to apply a lever throw the tori has to momentarily arrest his movement across the tatami, and kuzushi is necessary. However, if one at the same time moves backwards with the lower part of the body below uke's center of mass, and pulls forward with the arms, then in fact one is infusing a different physics principle, namely that of a mechanical couple. When a throw that represents a mechanical couple is applied, contrary to a lever throw, no stopping moment is necessary and neither is kuzushi necessary (I mean 'physically'; I do not mean that this is then is proper judo or hte most efficient way, but it is not necessary physically) to effect the throw. So, when kuzushi fails in a lever throw either due to reactions of uke, or due to poor kuzushi, or due to all the coincidences that can cause kuzushi to fail, then combining throws or combining principles will still result in a successful scoring throw. So, that is what you see, a change in principle of the throw due to adapting to the situation tori is presented with.

    Consequently, there is a difference between "how to perfectly perform a certain specific throw" and "attempting to get the maximal result out of a throw against an opponent who may react in a variety of nonscripted ways".


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:04 am; edited 1 time in total


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    DougNZ

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    Re: Tsuri-komi-goshi

    Post by DougNZ on Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:52 am

    I was looking at this clip a week or so ago. I'm glad you made the comments on ouchi gari that you did.

    samsmith2424

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    Re: Tsuri-komi-goshi

    Post by samsmith2424 on Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:13 am

    Ck. Your reply was helpful. Thank you.
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    afja_lm139

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    Re: Tsuri-komi-goshi

    Post by afja_lm139 on Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:02 am

    The smells and feels of tatami in an old dojo.  Brings back memories of half a century ago.  Great technique; was a favorite of many over the years.


    Last edited by afja_lm139 on Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Marvin the Martian

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    Re: Tsuri-komi-goshi

    Post by Marvin the Martian on Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:08 pm

    According to the well-known Kudo's book Dynamic Judo, tsuri-komi-goshi evolved as a counter to a counter to uki-goshi/harai-goshi sequel. It's a nice tool for demonstrating the idea of adapting to maintain initiative.

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