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    Ippon Seoi Nage

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    jackson001

    Posts : 4
    Join date : 2014-04-04

    Ippon Seoi Nage

    Post by jackson001 on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:10 am

    I've been working on my seoi nage and I like the technique, but I don't feel like there is a lot of power behind it. Is anyone here a seoi wizard that could give me some advice?

    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 856
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Ippon Seoi Nage

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:48 am

    jackson001 wrote:I've been working on my seoi nage and I like the technique, but I don't feel like there is a lot of power behind it. Is anyone here a seoi wizard that could give me some advice?

    Power is the rate of performing mechanical exercise or work, or the product of force and velocity. And where does force come from ? Newton's second law: F= m.a, mass times acceleration. Increase either your mass or your acceleration and you'll increase your force and ultimately your power. Obviously it would be helpful if you choose to increase your mass that you do so in an efficient way, so not by increasing fat mass ... Increasing acceleration or increasing mass by increasing lean body mass is thus wiser.

    However, power itself does not mean one's judo becomes better, and power can be applied in an efficient or very inefficient way. So, to actually have power produce the effect you desire, timing, control become important, so is kuzushi for kuzushi allows the most efficient use of power.

    In conclusion, increase your physical performance capacity and your technical seoi-nage ability, or what most experienced judoka will simply summarize as: practice, practice, practice !



    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    BillC

    Posts : 806
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Vista, California

    Re: Ippon Seoi Nage

    Post by BillC on Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:14 am

    jackson001 wrote:I've been working on my seoi nage and I like the technique, but I don't feel like there is a lot of power behind it. Is anyone here a seoi wizard that could give me some advice?

    Son of Jack ... greetings.

    I am not a wizard at anything but I have tremendous experience being bad at things and then gradually learning to improve.

    You don't narrow down "seoi nage" very much.  There are very generally the morote and ippon varieties ... which one bothers you?

    A common mistake is confusing from the beginning what the throw is ... it's not "shoulder throw" and it's not done with the butt bending over and it's certainly not an arm drag.  It's literally a "back carry throw" and you need to develop the feeling of carrying uke up and over.

    Preventing this frequently is a loose connection between tori's upper back area and tori's arrmpit of chest area.  Tori can do everything right ... get uke moving towards destruction of balance, etc. ... and a poor connection puts uke right back on balance.

    Imagine the feeling of putting on a backpack ... or watch kids wearing them ... a backpack worn high and tight rides well ... one with loose straps and, well, there's always that poor dork in line at school with his rucksack straps loose and struggling to walk with the thing wrapped around his waist by sticking his butt out.

    More than that ... imagine the feeling of putting on a heavy backpack, or a sea bag which only has one strap.  One looks much cooler and more in control pulling that bag off the baggage carousel high on the shoulder.

    Finally ... the execution of the technique is up and over ... this is probably where you feel power lacking ... it's like laying out a beach towel ... to do that efficiently ... or at all ... tori needs to lower his body so that all of the above come easily and so that laying uke out is more a matter of over and less a matter of up.

    For all three I recommend developing the feeling through ... here it comes ... ju no kata.  If you can do that seoinage close to right, you can do the rest.  Yeah, I know.  Lame, huh, but it works.

    If you search the forum you will find an interesting conversation about this technique ... maybe a month ago?


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    jackson001

    Posts : 4
    Join date : 2014-04-04

    Re: Ippon Seoi Nage

    Post by jackson001 on Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:43 pm

    I meant Ippon, at the club I'm at, morote seoi is generally just referred to as morote. That one feels fine, and it may just be that I am lower for morote than ippon and the throwing mechanic feels better. I also get that satisfying CRACK! sound when uke hits the tatami.

    Ippon is what feels like weaksauce, off the lapel or the arm. I know I'm getting better because once upon a time, my ippon was essentially an o goshi with a seoi grip. I am now getting more rotation with the throw, so it is more technically correct, but Uke gets more of a splat... than a CRACK!

    I'm probably going to have to get a private to really make the progress I want. My club is just pretty full, so there isn't a whole lot of individual coaching (my old club had very few people, but no one even close to my little 60kg size!).

    jackson001

    Posts : 4
    Join date : 2014-04-04

    Re: Ippon Seoi Nage

    Post by jackson001 on Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:45 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    jackson001 wrote:I've been working on my seoi nage and I like the technique, but I don't feel like there is a lot of power behind it. Is anyone here a seoi wizard that could give me some advice?

    Power is the rate of performing mechanical exercise or work, or the product of force and velocity. And where does force come from ?  Newton's second law: F= m.a, mass times acceleration. Increase either your mass or your acceleration and you'll increase your force and ultimately your power. Obviously it would be helpful if you choose to increase your mass that you do so in an efficient way, so not by increasing fat mass ...  Increasing acceleration or increasing mass by increasing lean body mass is thus wiser.

    However, power itself does not mean one's judo becomes better, and power can be applied in an efficient or very inefficient way. So, to actually have power produce the effect you desire, timing, control become important, so is kuzushi for kuzushi allows the most efficient use of power.

    In conclusion, increase your physical performance capacity and your technical seoi-nage ability, or what most experienced judoka will simply summarize as: practice, practice, practice !


    Yeah, I know there isn't any piece of magic that replaces good practice. That said, sometimes theres that one little thing that can make the difference.

    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 856
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Ippon Seoi Nage

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:48 pm

    jackson001 wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    jackson001 wrote:I've been working on my seoi nage and I like the technique, but I don't feel like there is a lot of power behind it. Is anyone here a seoi wizard that could give me some advice?

    Power is the rate of performing mechanical exercise or work, or the product of force and velocity. And where does force come from ?  Newton's second law: F= m.a, mass times acceleration. Increase either your mass or your acceleration and you'll increase your force and ultimately your power. Obviously it would be helpful if you choose to increase your mass that you do so in an efficient way, so not by increasing fat mass ...  Increasing acceleration or increasing mass by increasing lean body mass is thus wiser.

    However, power itself does not mean one's judo becomes better, and power can be applied in an efficient or very inefficient way. So, to actually have power produce the effect you desire, timing, control become important, so is kuzushi for kuzushi allows the most efficient use of power.

    In conclusion, increase your physical performance capacity and your technical seoi-nage ability, or what most experienced judoka will simply summarize as: practice, practice, practice !


    Yeah, I know there isn't any piece of magic that replaces good practice. That said, sometimes theres that one little thing that can make the difference.

    I answered what I answered because in your original post you asked specifically about 'power' not about improving your technique as such. There is no "piece of magic" when it comes to 'power'; it is simply a matter of Newtonian physics.

    If it is about technical aspects you want to know then say so, although there too thers is no piece of magic, and it is a matter of making sure you are below the opponent's barycenter, have optimal contact, and coordination, and body position. That's it. Why does this explanation do not do the magic for you either ? Simple. We do not now what your problem is since none of us has ever see you do seoi-nage, and at this point in time your self-analysis is likely insufficiently reliable to be of much help. To put it plain and simple, if you want me or any of us to offer you more than a physics explanation, a general lecture about seoi-nage no matter how erudite, or any other stab in the dark, then videotape yourself, mask your face if you do not want to be recognize, load it up on youtube or whatever and post it here. Then we might be able to provide you with a person-specific analysis which you may find much more helpful.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    jackson001

    Posts : 4
    Join date : 2014-04-04

    Re: Ippon Seoi Nage

    Post by jackson001 on Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:21 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    jackson001 wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    jackson001 wrote:I've been working on my seoi nage and I like the technique, but I don't feel like there is a lot of power behind it. Is anyone here a seoi wizard that could give me some advice?

    Power is the rate of performing mechanical exercise or work, or the product of force and velocity. And where does force come from ?  Newton's second law: F= m.a, mass times acceleration. Increase either your mass or your acceleration and you'll increase your force and ultimately your power. Obviously it would be helpful if you choose to increase your mass that you do so in an efficient way, so not by increasing fat mass ...  Increasing acceleration or increasing mass by increasing lean body mass is thus wiser.

    However, power itself does not mean one's judo becomes better, and power can be applied in an efficient or very inefficient way. So, to actually have power produce the effect you desire, timing, control become important, so is kuzushi for kuzushi allows the most efficient use of power.

    In conclusion, increase your physical performance capacity and your technical seoi-nage ability, or what most experienced judoka will simply summarize as: practice, practice, practice !


    Yeah, I know there isn't any piece of magic that replaces good practice. That said, sometimes theres that one little thing that can make the difference.

    I answered what I answered because in your original post you asked specifically about 'power' not about improving your technique as such. There is no "piece of magic" when it comes to 'power'; it is simply a matter of Newtonian physics.

    If it is about technical aspects you want to know then say so, although there too thers is no piece of magic, and it is a matter of making sure you are below the opponent's barycenter, have optimal contact, and coordination, and body position. That's it. Why does this explanation do not do the magic for you either ?  Simple. We do not now what your problem is since none of us has ever see you do seoi-nage, and at this point in time your self-analysis is likely insufficiently reliable to be of much help. To put it plain and simple, if you want me or any of us to offer you more than a physics explanation, a general lecture about seoi-nage no matter how erudite, or any other stab in the dark, then videotape yourself, mask your face if you do not want to be recognize, load it up on youtube or whatever and post it here. Then we might be able to provide you with a person-specific analysis which you may find much more helpful.

    I'd like to load a video onto youtube to demo my seoi, but don't have an uke to use for the next few days. I'm not worried about being recognized, thats not any big deal. If you wouldn't mind, please do give me a technical breakdown. I ould bet it would be helpful, and it certainly won't hurt.

    I agree with you, a self-analysis is hardly the most reliable thing to go on, but I don't have a video for the time being.

    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 856
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Ippon Seoi Nage

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:15 am

    jackson001 wrote:
    I'd like to load a video onto youtube to demo my seoi, but don't have an uke to use for the next few days. I'm not worried about being recognized, thats not any big deal. If you wouldn't mind, please do give me a technical breakdown. I ould bet it would be helpful, and it certainly won't hurt

    Whilst I could, it does not really seem like a very effective use of my time given that the Internet and even this forum is full with such descriptions and break-downs. I just went to have a look on YouTube and when I type in "ippon-seoi-nage" I get at least 100 returns. Admittedly, some is just footage from competitions, but several of them give a detailed technical breakdown; moreover you can actually see what they are doing, not just read. It seems to me that at the level you currently have anyone of those is going to be helpful even if they may not be 100% technically perfect.

    In addition, any standard judo book will give you a breakdown of ippon-seoi-nage as it is one of the most typical and characteristic judo throws. There are several of those books which are available for free via Google books.

    Also, you may wish to find the thread on this forum which I think was started by Doug and to which Richard Riehle extensively contributed. This was a fairly recent thread.


    jackson001 wrote:
    I agree with you, a self-analysis is hardly the most reliable thing to go on, but I don't have a video for the time being.

    I understand your predicament. Do let us know if and when you are able to remedy this. You will see that if you can, that the returns you will get will yield a great benefit for you.



    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

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