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    still learning

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    Impressive judo display

    Post by still learning on Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:21 pm

    A friend just shared this link, a skilful and imaginative display.

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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:57 pm

    still learning wrote:A friend just shared this link, a skilful and imaginative display.


    I disagree. This is not at all impressive jûdô display. What this is similar to the atrocious creation called jûdô show. Before starting another shouting match of "can you do it better" or "you are just being negative", let us reflect about why this is in many aspects poor.

    The first question to ask is when does jûdô become "impressive" ?  The answer is simple. Jûdô become impressive when it realizes its principles to the highest extent. The problem with jûdô show and things like this, is that it builds on a complete lack of understanding of jûdô and instead of developing this understanding, attempts to replace this by criteria that may well apply to various other concepts, such as, for example, circus.

    Circus is not jûdô. In the West, a criteria of appreciation oftentimes is trying to impress people, trying to be spectacular, trying to show that you are better than someone else, trying to do something that no one else can. In all these expressions of uniqueness, ego plays an important role. It is all about YOU, about being something special. There are examples of this in Eastern culture too, the Beijing Opera, for example, is an event where acrobacy, being spectacular and showing of is something to pursue.

    This is not the case in jûdô. Very late in his life and very little known to the community, Kanô conceived aesthetics as part of jûdô. It is critical to understand though that the aesthetics of jûdô are Japanese and not at all Western. Japanese aesthetics are very different in many aspects from Western aesthetics. Showing off is anathema in Japanese aesthetics, and so is trying to impress someone. This is also a major mistake we see in many kata demonstrations. When you perform kata in such a way that trying to impress someone, you are on a very wrong road. Instead, Japanese aesthetics require to almost annihilate yourself and the ego, so that what becomes visible is like it is a spontaneous product of nature. This difference is oftentimes very visible in jû-no-kata, and one of the reasons why most Western jû-no-kata fails to approach Japanese jû-no-kata demonstrations. Very often Westerners are "trying so hard" are trying to make acrobacy out of it. It is very wrong, it's mannered it is anti-jûdô. Being impressive in jûdô requires approaching mu'i, the absence of the self, as if you as an individual do not matter and become absorbed in nature. This difference between Western and Japanese aesthetics is perhaps the easiest to see in pottery. Western porcelain may be spectacular, mind-blowing showing off, whereas in Japanese aesthetics the penunltimate is achieved by something that will look old used, have bursts, be irregular, so that you start doubting whether it is man-made or something found in nature.

    The kinds of displays shown here may well serve a number of objectives, but it is not jûdô, and it does not reflect that anyone is even remotely on the way to understand jûdô, which is regrettable. There are other aspects, purely technical. Some things are good, but other throws are technically poor, but to the untrained eye give do the same as a kata performance in which uke jumps each time with whereas in reality the control and coordination and kuzushi is so off that the person does not really understand the technique.


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    still learning

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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by still learning on Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:29 pm

    Okay, points taken, it may not have demonstrated pure judo, however, it was (to me) a pleasure to watch.

    The control used to do the super slow tomenage I felt was impressive, the change of tempo to the uchi mata was nice. If I was choreographing a display and could get a fraction of what the guys did I would be pleased, as I feel it showed elements of judo in a way that would be appreciated by a lot of people and would potentially inspire people to step through the door to the dojo.
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    judoratt

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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by judoratt on Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:01 pm

    Thanks for the posting I really enjoyed it. It was posted on he old forum years ago, kind of forgot about it. Thought there was some good judo there too, but what do I know  Smile Smile

    beyondgrappling

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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by beyondgrappling on Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:35 pm

    Thats was amazing, I have met one of the Judoka (Simon) many times and he is a great guy. This demo was amazing, I loved every minute of it.
    There is a really good Sambo demo somewhere on YouTube...I have looked but cannot find it. If I do stumble across it I will definitely post it here.
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    NittyRanks

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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by NittyRanks on Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:26 am

    Well I wonder if they are good competitors. Even if it's show that is not easy.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:37 am

    If you like this kind of thing, what does exist in Japan is precision marching. This is a performance-minded show that is aesthetically appreciated although it isn't classical Japanese aesthetics. An important thing to notice is that this is a group-thing, and as such not an ego thing. For those not familiar with Japanese precision marching, here's an example:



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    afulldeck

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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by afulldeck on Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:17 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:If you like this kind of thing, what does exist in Japan is precision marching. This is a performance-minded show that is aesthetically appreciated although it isn't classical Japanese aesthetics. An important thing to notice is that this is a group-thing, and as such not an ego thing. For those not familiar with Japanese precision marching, here's an example:


    I find it rather interesting that you should post this particular video as I was trying to responded to your earlier comment "...Japanese aesthetics require to almost annihilate yourself and the ego, so that what becomes visible is like it is a spontaneous product of nature...." and tying that to the many years of personally being involved with a number of precision Drill Squads. Those that have had the pleasure of being on a drill squad know that there is a minimalist feeling that you search for, that you don't try to stand out, the rhythm and sounds of steps, arm movements sound like a single individual. When there is perfect synchronization everyone in the squad can feel it and the audience can see it.

    On a side note, this ego less notion was displayed with one particular Drill squad where the drilling Major would often yell corrections like "Smith back", "Smith Close", "Smith arms up", "Smith right", "Smith left", "rifle up Smith" etc. Anyone watching from the sidelines would think 'that poor Smith fellow--I wouldn't want to be him", however there was no such person named "Smith" in the squad--yet the corrections where made.

    Still in all the years of studying Kata I have yet to see the "ego-less" kata in the same way "ego-less" emerges from a drill squad nor have I seen a new spontaneous product of nature emerge...


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    medo

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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by medo on Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:31 am

    Its just a display that is well rehearsed, over the years our club had done hundreds of displays at school fetes, no point in training persons to do spectacular gymnastic things, all we did is what would happen in a normal class, with Judo skills associated with the grades on the mat absolutely no point in training someone to do fancy flick flacks across the mat! you will get a beginner expecting to be taught "flick flacks" instead of Judo....




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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by medo on Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:09 am

    beyondgrappling wrote:Thats was amazing, I have met one of the Judoka (Simon) many times and he is a great guy. This demo was amazing, I loved every minute of it.
    There is a really good Sambo demo somewhere on YouTube...I have looked but cannot find it. If I do stumble across it I will definitely post it here.

    I'm finding it difficult to see what you are seeing, Just two good Judoka choreographing a dance. Does the reverse slow motion show good technique? how about the puppet on a string bit, I just don't get it! Will it be of use to any Judoka? Will it attract any new Judoka....
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:55 am

    afulldeck wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:If you like this kind of thing, what does exist in Japan is precision marching. This is a performance-minded show that is aesthetically appreciated although it isn't classical Japanese aesthetics. An important thing to notice is that this is a group-thing, and as such not an ego thing. For those not familiar with Japanese precision marching, here's an example:


    I find it rather interesting that you should post this particular video as I was trying to responded to your earlier comment "...Japanese aesthetics require to almost annihilate yourself and the ego, so that what becomes visible is like it is a spontaneous product of nature...." and tying that to the many years of personally being involved with a number of precision Drill Squads. Those that have had the pleasure of being on a drill squad know that there is a minimalist feeling that you search for, that you don't try to stand out, the rhythm and sounds of steps, arm movements sound like a single individual. When there is perfect synchronization everyone in the squad can feel it and the audience can see it.

    On a side note, this ego less notion was displayed with one particular Drill squad where the drilling Major would often yell corrections like "Smith back", "Smith Close", "Smith arms up", "Smith right", "Smith left", "rifle up Smith" etc. Anyone watching from the sidelines would think 'that poor Smith fellow--I wouldn't want to be him", however there was no such person named "Smith" in the squad--yet the corrections where made.

    Still in all the years of studying Kata I have yet to see the "ego-less" kata in the same way "ego-less" emerges from a drill squad nor have I seen a new spontaneous product of nature emerge...

    You are missing my point, and attempting to defend against something I did not say.

    In Japan, standing out as an individual is frowned upon, hence the performance as an entire squad is not the subject of that criticism since a squad is not an individual but a community and one stands at the service of the community so that the whole community (squad) performs. I was also not talking about "squad drills" but about JAPANESE in JAPAN. Most certainly when I was in the military and we were doing drills I was not thinking at all about the well-being of the country or some community. Instead, I was trying to be the best myself, or at least better than others, and everything we did was about us, trying to be better than others, or expressed in less nice terms, hoping that others would be worse than we. And if there would be anything we could do that would provide us with some perk or merit then that was welcome, the value of that perk exponentially increasing if no one else except me got it. From the moment we are children our society forces everything to become a competition, in school, among friends, later at work, everything. The competition and value comparisons with others ultimately are the source of jealousy and envy, the source of crimes of passion, the source of misery in relationships.

    As to your last sentence I do not know what your training is in Japanese aesthetics. If you have not immersed yourself and been properly trained as a non-Japanese in wabi, sabi, yûgen, mono-no-aware, shizen, seijaku, etc, how would you recognize it and appreciate since it would not be embedded in your own culture. How would you be able to fully appreciate the full extent of Nô theater if you do not know what that extent is ? Of course you can go watch it through Western glasses and decide that it was great "because there were many pretty colors", or look for something "spectacular", yes ... The same applies to kata. How would one be able to appreciate something of which one does not know the existence ? This is also why most Japanese teachers will probably say that when you start learning the advanced kata of jûdô at age 60 and 6th or 7th dan that one is really way too young and inexperienced, and in this case we are talking about those who were actually embedded in the culture. How would one appreciate the level of Japanese or Chinese calligraphy if one does not know how the kanji has to be written, what it means and what the aesthetic qualifiers are ? This is no joke, if one considers the many Western dôjô where a clueless Western painter has tried to copy a some Japanese or Chinese writing when having no knowledge of Japanese or Chinese, the consequence being that no other Westerner present recognizes that it may be unreadable gibberish, horrendous, worse than written by a 6-year old, yet decide "it really looks cool that Chinese" (they likely can't even keep Chinese and Japanese apart, there are characters present that allow such discrimination). A very simple and basic analogy exists to some extent in some performance arts; very few people outside of the British Commonwealth, Pakistan could care any less or even understand cricket, just like most people outside of the US couldn't care any less about American football or baseball, don't know the rules, don't understand it and couldn't care less about the entire culture that surrounds it; yet someone who grew up with it has his entire life been embedded in that culture. Walk around on the street in the US or in a mall and turn your head and you will at least spot a handful of people wearing baseball hats, men, women, kids, including those who are not active players. I assure you that virtually nobody here anywhere is wearing a baseball hat; it's not part of the culture, it does not have a feeling of being 'cool', it has no relationship to some game which one enjoys, it is totally absent. Emerging oneself in and fully understanding and appreciating a different culture is a long and difficult process that involves serious study and sacrifice. Even then few people truly absorb it; there are of course Westerners who have lived for years in Japan, but many of those are mannered and their absorbance of Japanese culture is not a natural process but something they mimic. However, if one wants to, there is lots of guidance out there too. People like Donald Keene have devoted a lifetime to explaining these things and have shown that it is possible to grasp it, if only one is willing to put the time and effort in it. Therefore it is no surprise that short-cuts are tempting, short-cuts that are merely virtual evidently. It is precisely because of this problem that Westerners practice, look at and judge kata in the short-cut way, as a mere mechanistic copying of patterns with any deviation supposedly being a mistake. After all you do not have to study very much or devote a lot of time to memorizing and concluding that right is a mistake if some prescribed rule says it should be left. Concluding this does not require a lifetime commitment to Japanese cultures or aesthetics, as it then becomes just a rule book like the many Western rule books that exist.



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    beyondgrappling

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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by beyondgrappling on Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:29 am

    medo wrote:
    beyondgrappling wrote:Thats was amazing, I have met one of the Judoka (Simon) many times and he is a great guy. This demo was amazing, I loved every minute of it.
    There is a really good Sambo demo somewhere on YouTube...I have looked but cannot find it. If I do stumble across it I will definitely post it here.

    I'm finding it difficult to see what you are seeing, Just two good Judoka choreographing a dance.  Does the reverse slow motion show good technique? how about the puppet on a string bit,  I just don't get it!  Will it be of use to any Judoka? Will it attract any new Judoka....

    I thought it was a great, well planned and thought out demonstration that is completely different to any other Judo demo I have ever seen. I don't care that some of the techniques were a bit strange and reverse slow motion weren't true Judo techniques - but if it gets kids excited to do Judo then it's great. I'm not sure if they had an increase in attendance at Judo the following week - if they did then that's awesome. If they didn't then maybe next year the demo will include some more classical judo demonstrations.
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    judoratt

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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by judoratt on Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:17 pm

    I don't think any of the kids on the sidelines or people in the stands realize it wasn't judo. I remember about 10 years ago Jimmy Pedro did something like this in Houston it was pretty well received. And look at me I thought it was Judo but then again what do I know. Smile 

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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by gester on Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:24 pm

    The only really impressive part was seeing CK's girlfriend at the beginning!! Very Happy


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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by medo on Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:28 pm

    judoratt wrote:I don't think any of the kids on the sidelines or people in the stands realize it wasn't judo. I remember about 10 years ago Jimmy Pedro did something like this in Houston it was pretty well received. And look at me I thought it was Judo but then again what do I know. Smile 


    One of the best I remember was a display by Neil Adams and Chris Bowles in the eighties/nineties all the gyku in about a minute looking for it on you tube but no luck if someone has it put it on here its pure spectacular Judo, I was there, gasps from the audience and deafening applause.

    Nearly every national event tends to have some display. Back in my junior days Kime no Kata was popular now days its who can do the fanciest throws in slow motion/hi speed to music and lights Shocked
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    Creamy creamy baileys

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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by Creamy creamy baileys on Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:48 pm

    Does anyone have the video wherein they do NNK (might be GNK) once in slow motion then once at regular speed?

    tafftaz

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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by tafftaz on Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:07 am

    It is GNK and I have it on dvd somewhere. Will see if I can find it online.

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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by tafftaz on Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:46 am



    This might not be the one you are looking for but it is as close as I can find online.

    These are the guys I have doing the GNK on DVD. Geoff kindly sent me a copy years ago.
    I have been on the mat with both Geoff and John when attending various coaching/kata days years ago.
    Two real nice guys with good judo. Geoff still posts here sometimes.

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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by medo on Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:57 am

    tafftaz wrote:

    This might not be the one you are looking for but it is as close as I can find online.

    These are the guys I have doing the GNK on DVD. Geoff kindly sent me a copy years ago.
    I have been on the mat with both Geoff and John when attending various coaching/kata days years ago.
    Two real nice guys with good judo. Geoff still posts here sometimes.

    Think I Watched George Kerr doing slow-mo GNK a few years ago at the NEC?

    I get that, but not the reverse slow-mo, that makes no sense to me......
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    Creamy creamy baileys

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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by Creamy creamy baileys on Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:03 pm

    tafftaz wrote:

    This might not be the one you are looking for but it is as close as I can find online.

    These are the guys I have doing the GNK on DVD. Geoff kindly sent me a copy years ago.
    I have been on the mat with both Geoff and John when attending various coaching/kata days years ago.
    Two real nice guys with good judo. Geoff still posts here sometimes.

    Perfect - that's the one! I've been looking for that for ages
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    NittyRanks

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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by NittyRanks on Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:23 am

    I have never seen a demo (the original post - not the Gonosen) cause this much controversy.
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    Jonesy

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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by Jonesy on Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:04 am

    Above GNK = Gonosen-no-kata.

    The display by John Walsh and Geoff Moore is very good - even better in person. I have a DVD of them doing it - I think its a different performance to this one if I remember correctly.

    I have reported the clip in the kata section for completeness.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:32 am

    NittyRanks wrote:I have never seen a demo (the original post not the Gonosen) cause this much controversy.

    You must have forgotten the thread here a couple of months ago when during a tournament in Australia someone on the organizing staff gave his interpretation of what is proper and cool in jûdô by involving scantily dressed girls, dressing up in half-naked sumô gear, and other behaviors. There were no doubt also cheers in the audience, and people who had fun, and enjoyed themselves. I can't exactly locate the thread, but if you did miss it, you will see that it caused a whole lot more controversy. I don't think that here it really is a matter of controversy, but a common occurrence of two antipodes which you find back in many things that affect our lives.

    Here is still one of the videoclips (but without sound) from that event in case you missed it: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x112rx0_half-naked-fool-at-australian-national-judo-championships-2013_sport


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    Re: Impressive judo display

    Post by tafftaz on Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:13 pm

    Jonesy wrote:Above GNK = Gonosen-no-kata.

    The display by John Walsh and Geoff Moore is very good - even better in person. I have a DVD of them doing it - I think its a different performance to this one if I remember correctly.

    I have reported the clip in the kata section for completeness.

    It is slightly different jonesy. I have the same dvd but this is the only one I could find online as I do not know how to upload a dvd (it prob be to big to upload anyway).

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