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    Ryvai

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    What on earth is this technique

    Post by Ryvai on Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:29 pm

    Under the Tbilisi Judo Grand Prix 2014 there was a fight between Shor (ISR) vs. Shardze (GEO) in the -63 kg category. In the second round you could see an amazing throw for ippon! What is this technique classified as? I've included a GIF of the throw;



    She crooks the leg like in kawazu-gake but throws upwards and around with a grip like hikikomi-gaeshi (old obi-tori-gaeshi variation).

    samsmith2424

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by samsmith2424 on Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:48 pm

    I thought wrapping the leg and foot round like that was illegal.

    Ricebale

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Ricebale on Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:47 pm

    "Obviv" in Sambo, means grapevine, it is a very common throw in Sambo and Freestyle wrestling, I thought it was illegal in Judo

    without the grapevine it is a leg propped half suplex or hip spring ithink tthe judo name might be a reverse Hanegoshi

    edit to add vid:



    it's a cool throw

    Ryvai

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Ryvai on Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:00 am

    Ricebale wrote:"Obviv" in Sambo, means grapevine, it is a very common throw in Sambo and Freestyle wrestling, I thought it was illegal in Judo

    without the grapevine it is a leg propped half suplex or hip spring ithink tthe judo name might be a reverse Hanegoshi

    Thanks for that video Ricebale. Performing kawazu-gake is illegal as it is dangerous to land on top of uke in that particular throw. grapevining the leg can be done legally in many ways, like the henka of hane-goshi shown by Daigo sensei in the book Kodokan Throwing techniques or Yama-arashi (Daigo has explained that you are supposed to grapevine the leg with your big toe barely touching the mat behind uke's heel)

    It cannot possibly imagine this being a form of hane-goshi Ricebale, and there's certainly nothing called "reverse"-Hane-goshi, but I know what you mean, hehe ^_^

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:30 am

    Ryvai wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:"Obviv" in Sambo, means grapevine, it is a very common throw in Sambo and Freestyle wrestling, I thought it was illegal in Judo

    without the grapevine it is a leg propped half suplex or hip spring ithink tthe judo name might be a reverse Hanegoshi

    Thanks for that video Ricebale. Performing kawazu-gake is illegal as it is dangerous to land on top of uke in that particular throw. grapevining the leg can be done legally in many ways, like the henka of hane-goshi shown by Daigo sensei in the book Kodokan Throwing techniques or Yama-arashi (Daigo has explained that you are supposed to grapevine the leg with your big toe barely touching the mat behind uke's heel)

    It cannot possibly imagine this being a form of hane-goshi Ricebale, and there's certainly nothing called "reverse"-Hane-goshi, but I know what you mean, hehe ^_^

    This is clearly kawazu-gake, part of the Shinmeishô-no-waza techniques. The danger obviously is not landing on top of uke --something which is the case in numerous jûdô techniques, especially makikomi-- but because it is not perfectly possible to maintain accurate of the entangled knee while going to the tatami. Any stretching of tori's leg can easily crack the medial meniscus, and the anterior cruciate ligament, as well as the medial collateral ligament. It is a dangerous technique outlawed in jûdô shiai for at least half a century, and historically outlawed in randori. It is far more dangerous for the knee joint than kani-basami, the latter which usually becomes dangerous only if uke resists. Kawazu-gake is even dangerous if performed clean. A simple disparity in leg length between both opponents is enough to cause a major disabling injury.

    Hansoku-make should have been the result in the video, and letting something like that pass, sends a bad, bad signal. It is something so obvious that one wonders how a referee could not notices.


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    Ricebale

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Ricebale on Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:03 am

    Ryvai wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:"Obviv" in Sambo, means grapevine, it is a very common throw in Sambo and Freestyle wrestling, I thought it was illegal in Judo

    without the grapevine it is a leg propped half suplex or hip spring ithink tthe judo name might be a reverse Hanegoshi

    Thanks for that video Ricebale. Performing kawazu-gake is illegal as it is dangerous to land on top of uke in that particular throw. grapevining the leg can be done legally in many ways, like the henka of hane-goshi shown by Daigo sensei in the book Kodokan Throwing techniques or Yama-arashi (Daigo has explained that you are supposed to grapevine the leg with your big toe barely touching the mat behind uke's heel)

    It cannot possibly imagine this being a form of hane-goshi Ricebale, and there's certainly nothing called "reverse"-Hane-goshi, but I know what you mean, hehe ^_^

    Rule 1 never invite me to a " name that throw Judo trivia night" Smile

    The Soviet terminology for the "hane goshi" group is hip spring, there are some 10 variations I know of; forward backwards, side ways arch etc. They used this terminology for their judo too, I've inadvertently picked it up which makes for baffling discussions with my judo friends "I know what you mean" is something I hear a lot lol

    judoratt

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by judoratt on Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:24 am

    The  Kawazu gake I have seen was a back to front attack and finish, with a similar leg wrap.  The attack starts almost chest to chest and finishes chest to chest my guess is that the referee may have saw o ochi gari. What do you think.  Laughing 

    BTW CK When I tore my miniscus it made no sound, when I blew out my acl it popped, and when I broke my tib. fib. it snapped  you could say it cracked verry loud you could hear it two mats away. Smile Smile

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:27 pm

    judoratt wrote:The  Kawazu gake I have seen was a back to front attack and finish, with a similar leg wrap.  The attack starts almost chest to chest and finishes chest to chest my guess is that the referee may have saw o ochi gari. What do you think.  Laughing 

    BTW CK When I tore my miniscus it made no sound, when I blew out my acl it popped, and when I broke my tib. fib. it snapped  you could say it cracked verry loud you could hear it two mats away. Smile Smile

    Traditionally when kawazu-gake was mentioned at referees clinics and in the IJF rules it was really meant exactly like you describe, and carried out mostly as an illegal defense. But the actual throw kawazu-gake is as shown in the early post or in the following Kôdôkan clips:



    I don't envy your knee problems. I knew about your knee, but I did not now that you had also broken your tibia and fibula. Was that also with jûdô ? If so, how did it happen ? (it would be normal to make a very loud sound indeed). On the other hand when they tore the tendons in my arm (elbow) it was audible too, but a different sound, more like a cable that snaps.


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    fredlinux

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by fredlinux on Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:38 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:Hansoku-make should have been the result in the video, and letting something like that pass, sends a bad, bad signal. It is something so obvious that one wonders how a referee could not notices.

    Kawazu-gake as a forward technique is valid. Only a backward technique is a case for hansoku-make.

    Without the leg entanglement, this technique is informally called Khabareli pick up.

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:55 pm

    fredlinux wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:Hansoku-make should have been the result in the video, and letting something like that pass, sends a bad, bad signal. It is something so obvious that one wonders how a referee could not notices.

    Kawazu-gake as a forward technique is valid. Only a backward technique is a case for hansoku-make.

    Without the leg entanglement, this technique is informally called Khabareli pick up.

    This is an interesting one. In the Kôdôkan 1955 Contest Rules, art 28 (b) it is said that Kawazu-gake is prohibited, no further details, so all kawazu-gake. This is retained in the Kôdôkan 1955 Rules which were used for the World Championships.

    In the 1983 IJF Rules (art. 29 at that time) two specific stipulations pop up, namely "while facing more or less in the same direction as the opponent and falling backwards onto him".

    The same formula is retained in the the 1985 IJF Rules but by then it is article 28.

    By 2003 it has become article 27 of the Refereeing Rules and this in the handbook that has remained the basis of refereeing until today, since then only knowing updates.

    In general the parts 'facing more or less in the same direction) and "falling backwards" have been sufficient and unavoidable, even though the article literally says "falling backwards ONTO HIM). During all the clinics I have attended and where a similar action was shown, it was considered prohibited. In all fairness, it is an action we did not have to deal with very often. I hope that does not change ...


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    GGADI

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by GGADI on Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:49 am

    This is clearly kawazu-gake, part of the Shinmeishô-no-waza techniques. The danger obviously is not landing on top of uke --something which is the case in numerous jûdô techniques, especially makikomi-- but because it is not perfectly possible to maintain accurate of the entangled knee while going to the tatami. Any stretching of tori's leg can easily crack the medial meniscus, and the anterior cruciate ligament, as well as the medial collateral ligament. It is a dangerous technique outlawed in jûdô shiai for at least half a century, and historically outlawed in randori. It is far more dangerous for the knee joint than kani-basami, the latter which usually becomes dangerous only if uke resists. Kawazu-gake is even dangerous if performed clean. A simple disparity in leg length between both opponents is enough to cause a major disabling injury.

    Hansoku-make should have been the result in the video, and letting something like that pass, sends a bad, bad signal. It is something so obvious that one wonders how a referee could not notices.

    Leg Entwinement and kwazu-gake, where both players are facing in the same direction and Tori's throw is made by locking the knee, and falling backwards in the direction opposite that to which the players are facing, like one sees here, has been illegal in Shiai at least since the early 1950's, for the reasons stated above.  

    Hansoku-make was the result, as the two judges interceded, and with the Super-Jury concurring, changed the call to Hansoku-make for Tori. A Multiple World and Olympic Gold Medalist was the referee and her position in juxtaposition to the players did not give her a clear view of the leg entwinement and kwazu-gake, as is clearly evident in the opposing camera view. This is why we have teams of Referees and a Jury who work together to ensure the correct scoring.


    Last edited by GGADI on Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:16 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : remove name identifiers which may cause embarrassment)

    sean horton

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by sean horton on Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:23 am

    IJF article 27(b) 23; to apply Kawazu-gake. (To throw the opponent by winding one leg around the opponent's leg, while facing more or less in the same direction as the opponent and falling backwards onto him). This is the rule for the throw in competition judo.

    Here are my thoughts (I’m not a ref or international ref, just a thinker), that the throw on the video is legal (yes I understand the potential issues with the knee – let’s just look at the technique provided and argue the elements of the throw shown and the IJF rule).

    The elements to the throw per IJF referee rules.

    1. Winding one leg around the opponent’s leg, while facing more or less in the same direction as the opponent.

    2. Falling backwards onto him.

    With these elements as provided by IJF article 27(b) 23 referee judo rules I still argue that this throw is legal. Let me provide my thought. An observation and after watching the video it appears to me that when tori wraps the leg she is facing to uke's rear/right corner - freeze it when the words come up of "and then grapevines with the foot (which is illegal)." If tori is facing in this direction I think it negates a portion of the 1st element “while facing more or less in the same direction as the opponent." That said, if you don’t have that then "and winding of the leg" is mute. To add more to it, when tori throws uke, she rotates to a face to face position when completing the throw and not “falling backwards onto him” as is stated in the IJF rules. So, I say the technique is legal due to the elements of the rule do not apply to this throw as shown on the video. I know that the “super jury” and “top” international referee’s DQ this gal, however, I disagree with their decision.

    Ricebale

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Ricebale on Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:42 am

    At the Sambo world's last year 18 people died from this technique and a further 347 were hospitalized, it's really dangerous.

    In other news every judo a I spar with falls for it with little effort on my part and no resulting inuries, I teach this one as a beginners move as part of the anti pick up to counter combo.

    beyondgrappling

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by beyondgrappling on Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:35 am

    Ricebale wrote:At the Sambo world's last year 18 people died from this technique and a further 347 were hospitalized,  it's really dangerous.

    In other news every judo a I spar with falls for it with little effort on my part and no resulting inuries, I teach this one as a beginners move as part of the anti pick up to counter combo.

    I thought for an anti pickup you would do a kouchi not a grape vine? With a grape vine they can still do the uchimata ride and roll counter (others call it stretchy...I don't know what it's called)

    Ricebale

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Ricebale on Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:26 pm

    beyondgrappling wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:At the Sambo world's last year 18 people died from this technique and a further 347 were hospitalized,  it's really dangerous.

    In other news every judo a I spar with falls for it with little effort on my part and no resulting inuries, I teach this one as a beginners move as part of the anti pick up to counter combo.

    I thought for an anti pickup you would do a kouchi not a grape vine? With a grape vine they can still do the uchimata ride and roll counter (others call it stretchy...I don't know what it's called)

    ^ try a Ko Uchi me and you will go flying Smile

    The grapevine prevents extention of the back and therefore prevents the lift, I note just about every Australian judoka gets picked up a lot in all sorts of combat sports, this lack of basic technique could be why

    judoratt

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by judoratt on Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:41 pm

    Ricebale wrote:At the Sambo world's last year 18 people died from this technique and a further 347 were hospitalized,  it's really dangerous.

    In other news every judo a I spar with falls for it with little effort on my part and no resulting inuries, I teach this one as a beginners move as part of the anti pick up to counter combo.


    So at the world sambo championships at least 18 people died? Shocked Shocked 

    judoratt

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by judoratt on Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:48 pm

    beyondgrappling wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:At the Sambo world's last year 18 people died from this technique and a further 347 were hospitalized,  it's really dangerous.

    In other news every judo a I spar with falls for it with little effort on my part and no resulting inuries, I teach this one as a beginners move as part of the anti pick up to counter combo.

    I thought for an anti pickup you would do a kouchi not a grape vine? With a grape vine they can still do the uchimata ride and roll counter (others call it stretchy...I don't know what it's called)

    I regularly use a Koichi hook along with a high grip to limit and or control a pick up from uchimata or harai.

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:52 pm

    judoratt wrote:
    beyondgrappling wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:At the Sambo world's last year 18 people died from this technique and a further 347 were hospitalized,  it's really dangerous.

    In other news every judo a I spar with falls for it with little effort on my part and no resulting inuries, I teach this one as a beginners move as part of the anti pick up to counter combo.

    I thought for an anti pickup you would do a kouchi not a grape vine? With a grape vine they can still do the uchimata ride and roll counter (others call it stretchy...I don't know what it's called)

      I regularly use a Koichi hook along with a high grip to limit and or control a pick up from uchimata or harai.


    Judoratt is very correct. It is not possible for someone to continue the pick-up and score with with it if you apply and continue applying a well-controlled ko-uchi-gari.

    Like Judoratt I too this, and I have a pretty good reference for it, as it was the only thing that could save me when doing randori to the master of pick-ups (a previous Olympic Gold medal winner) and interrupt his series of catapulting me in the air. I also was two weight classes lighter which shows the excellent efficiency of ko-uchi-gari, much like Judoratt says.


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    Ricebale

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Ricebale on Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:22 pm

    The counter to the Ko uchi block is the grapevine by which you use that to complete the lift, you are placing your leg in the best position to enable the wrap around, but I think we mayhap be on different wavelengths here, without video it's hard to see the relative body positions to see the strengths of each method, cheers

    samsmith2424

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by samsmith2424 on Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:38 pm

    judoratt wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:At the Sambo world's last year 18 people died from this technique and a further 347 were hospitalized,  it's really dangerous.

    In other news every judo a I spar with falls for it with little effort on my part and no resulting inuries, I teach this one as a beginners move as part of the anti pick up to counter combo.


     So at the world sambo championships at least 18 people died? Shocked Shocked 

    I think he was joking. I hope so!!!!!

    beyondgrappling

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by beyondgrappling on Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:05 pm

    Ricebale wrote:
    beyondgrappling wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:At the Sambo world's last year 18 people died from this technique and a further 347 were hospitalized,  it's really dangerous.

    In other news every judo a I spar with falls for it with little effort on my part and no resulting inuries, I teach this one as a beginners move as part of the anti pick up to counter combo.

    I thought for an anti pickup you would do a kouchi not a grape vine? With a grape vine they can still do the uchimata ride and roll counter (others call it stretchy...I don't know what it's called)

    ^ try a Ko Uchi me and you will go flying Smile

    The grapevine prevents extention of the back and therefore prevents the lift,  I note just about every Australian judoka gets picked up a lot in all sorts of combat sports, this lack of basic technique could be why

    yes but judoka cannot grapevine the leg therefore you will be picked up unless you can hook in for a kouchi. I did a video on it on youtube.

    I'd love if you did a video on how to pick someone up when they do a kouchi because from my understanding it will be very difficult unless you can unlock your leg.

    Ricebale

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Ricebale on Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:37 pm

    beyondgrappling wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:
    beyondgrappling wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:At the Sambo world's last year 18 people died from this technique and a further 347 were hospitalized,  it's really dangerous.

    In other news every judo a I spar with falls for it with little effort on my part and no resulting inuries, I teach this one as a beginners move as part of the anti pick up to counter combo.

    I thought for an anti pickup you would do a kouchi not a grape vine? With a grape vine they can still do the uchimata ride and roll counter (others call it stretchy...I don't know what it's called)

    ^ try a Ko Uchi me and you will go flying Smile

    The grapevine prevents extention of the back and therefore prevents the lift,  I note just about every Australian judoka gets picked up a lot in all sorts of combat sports, this lack of basic technique could be why

    yes but judoka cannot grapevine the leg therefore you will be picked up unless you can hook in for a kouchi. I did a video on it on youtube.

    I'd love if you did a video on how to pick someone up when they do a kouchi because from my understanding it will be very difficult unless you can unlock your leg.

    I see where your strategy lays and I accept it in your paradigm.

    In your Ko uchi example if your opponent lifts the right leg you try to block and performs the suplex over the left side the Ko uchi will assist his pick up as you present your back to his line of power, you state this yourself in the end of your video.

    I thought throwing with the grapevine was illegal not grapevine per Se, however I lost contact with Judo rules a while back Smile

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:21 pm

    Ricebale wrote:The counter to the Ko uchi block is the grapevine by which you use that to complete the lift, you are placing your leg in the best position to enable the wrap around, but I think we mayhap be on different wavelengths here, without video it's hard to see the relative body positions to see the strengths of each method, cheers

    It is difficult for me to respond as I do not know what 'grapevine' is as such is not jûdô-terminology, and it is very awkward for an experienced jûdôka to talk about jûdô and contextualize it with terminology that is not jûdô. However, based on what is in the first video, I am assuming that you mean kawazu-gake. It is not possible to counter ko-uchi-gari with kawazu-gake. Moreover, it isn't just "ko-uchi-gari block". Ko-uchi-gari obviously is not a block but a throw. While doing ko-uchi-gari in response to lift for either ura-nage, daki-wakare, or te-guruma, at the least exerts a blocking action it also on top endangers the other one who is at risk for being thrown. JudoRatt also pointed out his specific grip for that, which also was astute and correct.

    I cannot show you any videos from those days. As I have pointed out a couple of times in the past, it was a totally different culture from today's judo culture in the US, where you during a clinic or training you see sometimes more people showing up with videocamera's instead of actually training which often made me wonder what the heck they do with all those videos. In the days we trained I never ever saw anyone show up with an 8 mm camera, or later when video equipment existed, with a video camera. Heck, I don't even have a single picture of those days from those trainings, not even from Japan or Korea. It was just not done. People came their to practice, practice, practice not take pictures or videos. As to recent days, many of us are old, some have quit judo, others their body is in pieces, and I cannot just replicate this with my current students as none of them are Olympic gold medal winners who would have the stature, strength, and ability to just lift me up like a puppet, as I recall from those days. I don't know if there is anything similar on YouTube. If I reflect on this, there are certainly people in my mind with the kind of technical-strategic intelligence who would perfectly know how to do this and perhaps teach this. One name that would come up would be Frank Wieneke.


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    Jonesy

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Jonesy on Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:10 am

    Peter Seisenbacher would be another.....


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:49 am

    Khabarelli...I think Daigo adresses how it fits into the Kodokan system in his book, which I do not have with me. I think it's considered a kind of Hikkomi Gaeshi. The kawazu issue isn't a factor, as uke is not thrown backwards with tori landing on him more or less.

    I thought, as some have mentioned, that Kawazu Gake (in Judo at least) has specific criteria to be hansokumake, i.e., the falling backwards onto uke (pretty much straight back). That is what I was taught for years and years as a referee...kawazu is simply the "grapevining", Kawazu Gake is a specific throw. I believe Daigo has an illustration of a hare and a frog grappling as well, with an explanation. I have also seen kawazu gake explained as a technique from sumo, and made famous in one match between two samurai...

    Anyway, I would not have called that hansokumake.




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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Sponsored content Today at 1:38 am


      Current date/time is Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:38 am