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    What on earth is this technique

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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:55 am

    kawazu isn't illegal in Judo, Kawazu Gake is...I went through this at the Saskatchewan Open with one of our students...got hansokumake when she did kouchi gari, used kawazu, and opponent tried to counter, but fell obliquely backwards with our student on top...hansokumake, not ! Then when I politely inquired (really, I was very polite), I got a lecture on how Kawazu Gake was illegal and dangerous. I kept quiet, and accepted the fact that a mistake had been made. Then, later, the same ref advised me that kawazu (not gake) was legal, but that Kawzau Gake (the specific falling/throwing straight backwards facing same direction as uke) IS illegal.

    To say the least, I was amused...


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:37 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:Khabarelli...I think Daigo adresses how it fits into the Kodokan system in his book, which I do not have with me. I think it's considered a kind of Hikkomi Gaeshi. The kawazu issue isn't a factor, as uke is not thrown backwards with tori landing on him more or less.

    I thought, as some have mentioned, that Kawazu Gake (in Judo at least) has specific criteria to be hansokumake, i.e., the falling backwards onto uke (pretty much straight back). That is what I was taught for years and years as a referee...kawazu is simply the "grapevining", Kawazu Gake is a specific throw. I believe Daigo has an illustration of a hare and a frog grappling as well, with an explanation. I have also seen kawazu gake explained as a technique from sumo, and made famous in one match between two samurai...

    Anyway, I would not have called that hansokumake.

    I think one has to be careful not to cause confusion here for some readers. Daigo's book contains an extensive overview of proper jûdô throwing techniques, but that is an entirely different thing from what is allowed under IJF rules. I think one has to make clear that it isn't because it appears in Daigo's book that it may be performed in shiai under IJF rules or even under Kôdôkan rules. You can't perform daki-age either and this under both systems, but it still is an existing judo throw even though it has outlawed for so long that perhaps prof. Richard Riehle here might be the only one on this forum old enough to have still witnessed it in competition (in terms of speaking).

    Also note that reaping, hooking the leg away from the front side to the back while standing behind uke, has also been prohibited for a long time, though for some reason the IJF does not use the terminology kawazu-gake in that article though it is also a form of kawazu-gake.


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    Ricebale

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Ricebale on Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:50 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:The counter to the Ko uchi block is the grapevine by which you use that to complete the lift, you are placing your leg in the best position to enable the wrap around, but I think we mayhap be on different wavelengths here, without video it's hard to see the relative body positions to see the strengths of each method, cheers

    It is difficult for me to respond as I do not know what 'grapevine' is as such is not jûdô-terminology, and it is very awkward for an experienced jûdôka to talk about jûdô and contextualize it with terminology that is not jûdô. However, based on what is in the first video, I am assuming that you mean kawazu-gake. It is not possible to counter ko-uchi-gari with kawazu-gake. Moreover, it isn't just "ko-uchi-gari block". Ko-uchi-gari obviously is not a block but a throw. While doing ko-uchi-gari in response to lift for either ura-nage, daki-wakare, or te-guruma, at the least exerts a blocking action it also on top endangers the other one who is at risk for being thrown. JudoRatt also pointed out his specific grip for that, which also was astute and correct.

    I cannot show you any videos from those days. As I have pointed out a couple of times in the past, it was a totally different culture from today's judo culture in the US, where you during a clinic or training you see sometimes more people showing up with videocamera's instead of actually training which often made me wonder what the heck they do with all those videos. In the days we trained I never ever saw anyone show up with an 8 mm camera, or later when video equipment existed, with a video camera. Heck, I don't even have a single picture of those days from those trainings, not even from Japan or Korea. It was just not done. People came their to practice, practice, practice not take pictures or videos. As to recent days, many of us are old, some have quit judo, others their body is in pieces, and I cannot just replicate this with my current students as none of them are Olympic gold medal winners who would have the stature, strength, and ability to just lift me up like a puppet, as I recall from those days. I don't know if there is anything similar on YouTube. If I reflect on this, there are certainly people in my mind with the kind of technical-strategic intelligence who would perfectly know how to do this and perhaps teach this. One name that would come up would be Frank Wieneke.

    we are mixing 2 conversations here, a properly performed Ko uchi cannot be grapevined in this fashion I agree, I am making reference to the video above where the Ko uchi movement is used to block the lift, it is a relatively straight forward Kawazu or ggrapevine from there

    These movements don't originated in Judo so even despite my limited judo terminology I can't help there, the original gif of the IJF ccompetition throw is detailing a move frequently seen outside of Judo in various wrestling styles, notably chiboda and Sambo, I was of the understanding that the IJF has been on a crusade to expunge these styles from judo.

    Heisenberg

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Heisenberg on Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:13 pm

    beyondgrappling wrote:

    I thought for an anti pickup you would do a kouchi not a grape vine? With a grape vine they can still do the uchimata ride and roll counter (others call it stretchy...I don't know what it's called)


    yes but judoka cannot grapevine the leg therefore you will be picked up unless you can hook in for a kouchi. I did a video on it on youtube.

    "Stretchy" looks like Uchi-mata sukashi, if I'm not mistaken


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:23 pm

    Ricebale wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:The counter to the Ko uchi block is the grapevine by which you use that to complete the lift, you are placing your leg in the best position to enable the wrap around, but I think we mayhap be on different wavelengths here, without video it's hard to see the relative body positions to see the strengths of each method, cheers

    It is difficult for me to respond as I do not know what 'grapevine' is as such is not jûdô-terminology, and it is very awkward for an experienced jûdôka to talk about jûdô and contextualize it with terminology that is not jûdô. However, based on what is in the first video, I am assuming that you mean kawazu-gake. It is not possible to counter ko-uchi-gari with kawazu-gake. Moreover, it isn't just "ko-uchi-gari block". Ko-uchi-gari obviously is not a block but a throw. While doing ko-uchi-gari in response to lift for either ura-nage, daki-wakare, or te-guruma, at the least exerts a blocking action it also on top endangers the other one who is at risk for being thrown. JudoRatt also pointed out his specific grip for that, which also was astute and correct.

    I cannot show you any videos from those days. As I have pointed out a couple of times in the past, it was a totally different culture from today's judo culture in the US, where you during a clinic or training you see sometimes more people showing up with videocamera's instead of actually training which often made me wonder what the heck they do with all those videos. In the days we trained I never ever saw anyone show up with an 8 mm camera, or later when video equipment existed, with a video camera. Heck, I don't even have a single picture of those days from those trainings, not even from Japan or Korea. It was just not done. People came their to practice, practice, practice not take pictures or videos. As to recent days, many of us are old, some have quit judo, others their body is in pieces, and I cannot just replicate this with my current students as none of them are Olympic gold medal winners who would have the stature, strength, and ability to just lift me up like a puppet, as I recall from those days. I don't know if there is anything similar on YouTube. If I reflect on this, there are certainly people in my mind with the kind of technical-strategic intelligence who would perfectly know how to do this and perhaps teach this. One name that would come up would be Frank Wieneke.

    we are mixing 2 conversations here, a properly performed Ko uchi cannot be grapevined in this fashion I agree, I am making reference to the video above where the Ko uchi movement is used to block the lift, it is a relatively straight forward Kawazu or ggrapevine from there

    These movements don't originated in Judo so even despite my limited judo terminology I can't help there, the original gif of the IJF ccompetition throw is detailing a move frequently seen outside of Judo in various wrestling styles, notably chiboda and Sambo, I was of the understanding that the IJF has been on a crusade to expunge these styles from judo.

    The origin of ko-uchi-gari is obviously not at the order, which by the way is something I properly researched, trust me. I have, however, not yet researched the likely origin of kawazu-gake in jûdô. I know that the oigin of ura-nage in jûdô is Takenouchi Santô-ryû jûjutsu.

    Ko-uchi-gari is not simply used to block. If that was possible it would not be ko-uchi-gari. So, it is used as a throw, but the throw not being succesful the consequence is obviously is that there is no ensuing throw and the action stalls. If the person attempting to lift would show considerable moments of weakness the effect would be that he would be thrown with ko-uchi-gari.

    The actions fail when one opponent is not able to cause the other opponent's center of mass to fall sufficiently out of his basis of support, or does, but the result is that he does not fall on his back.

    About the IJF one never knows as it is run by idiots who would be better be spending some time on the tatami practising instead of traveling business class between five-start hotels and deciding the future of judo from behind a table filled with plates of lobster and glasses of Krug brut.


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    Ricebale

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Ricebale on Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:46 pm

    ^ to simplify the above I offer the following maxims I use in training:

    A correctly applied technique cannot be countered

    An attempted technique may be countered

    Thence:

    A correctly applied "over the chest belt throw with a grapevine" cannot be countered with a trip

    An attempted "over the chest belt throw with a grapevine" may be countered with a trip

    Cheers

    Ryvai

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Ryvai on Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:39 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:About the IJF one never knows as it is run by idiots who would be better be spending some time on the tatami practising instead of traveling business class between five-start hotels and deciding the future of judo from behind a table filled with plates of lobster and glasses of Krug brut.

    There are surprisingly many sensei I've met who share the exact same opinion Smile

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:52 am

    Ricebale wrote:^ to simplify the above I offer the following maxims I use in training:

    A correctly applied technique cannot be countered

    An attempted technique may be countered

    Thence:

    A correctly applied "over the chest belt throw with a grapevine" cannot be countered with a trip

    An attempted "over the chest belt throw with a grapevine" may be countered with a trip

    Cheers

    I think that many people have a tendency to be wanting to express things in a simple way. Unfortunately, many things that are not expressed in a simple way are that way because they can't be expressed in a simple way. If it ware possible rather than to accurately write out the Shrôdinger Equation in 2 or 3 words, rest assured that Schrödinger himself would probably have done it.

    When talking the term 'counter' in jûdô, there are 4 forms that apply to shiai: counter by throw, by osae-komi-waza, by kansetsu-waza, and by shime-waza. This is important. What may be extremely difficult to counter by throw, may be a lot easier to counter by kansetsu-waza or shime-waza.

    Secondly, a 'counter' (or 'combination') unlike what many people assume, is not limited to one technique from one opponent and one from the other opponent. The number is not predetermined, and a counter may be recountered, even though in the majority of cases, techniques may not stretch beyond two.

    Every throw in jûdô 'can' be countered, but not by anybody, and not by anything. Specifically, many sutemi-waza are difficult and sometimes impossible to counter with another throw, since if tori is already lying on the ground, you cannot follow up with another throw, though it may still be countered by osae-komi-waza, kansetsu-waza or shime-waza.

    Ultimately, it is not so much a matter of "perfect technique" but a matter of who is the best jûdôka. The more excellent one is the more near impossible things someone might be able to pull off. The infamous Matsuda uchi-mata counter is one such example. It is a near impossible to pull off counter of uchi-mata by an opposite-side uchi-mata. Extremely difficult movement, which Matsuda was able to perform, and he could do it on an uchi-mata of someone else who performed a technique which there is little to comment on.

    The nature of the counter is of importance. Theoretically, every throw of the gokyô (except for sutemi-waza) can be countered by every throw of the gokyô, but obviously not everyone can. The ability to smoothly redirect kuzushi, apply correct debana, tai-sabaki and body position may require very advanced skills depending on the counter chosen. I regularly have to prepare people for black belt exams, and obviously the higher the rank, the more complicated it gets. So I regularly have to deal with students asking me what they can do if the other jûdôka does this of that. I then have to make a choice depending on the level and skill of the jûdôka. They may be able to learn some of the things I suggest or show, but other things may be way over the top, even if it can be done when you just have the skills. Renzoku-waza, for example, meaning combinations where you continue in the same direction, are often easier to pull of than renraku-waza which includes combinations in opposite or different direction.

    So, while ura-nage, kawazu-gake (in the way shown), te-guruma are not normally possible to continue if the opponent properly applies ko-uchi-gari, that does not need to be the end of the story. If the person applying kawazu-gake is so skilled and truly masters jûdô, nothing prevents him to give up his attempt to score with a lifting throw, and move to techniques which are valid counters for ko-uchi-gari, since there is no limit to countering and re-countering with successive throws until one succeeds in making the barycenter of one opponent fall so far out of his foundation that he is unable to restore equilibrium.

    The moment at which the throw applied by the opponent you react is of importance. In Kôdôkan jûdô a distinction is made between sen-no-sen (initiative before the opponent), sen-sen-no-sen (initiative concomitant with the opponent), and go-no-sen (initiative after the opponent has taken the initiative). Each of the comments I have listed above needs to be considered depending on which of the three options here applies. Most people when considering counters (kaeshi-waza) think in terms of go-no-sen, because that is the easiest to visualize, gives you the most time to decide, and requires less anticipatory skill, and advanced kuzushi skills, than for example, sen-sen-no-sen.

    So, given these constraints, really the only maxim one can conclude, is that: "No matter what you do, the best jûdôka is likely to win in a contest of jûdôka who limit themselves to doing jûdô".  Obviously, if one applies a different art with different rules (karate, MMA, BJJ), that is no longer the same which is why even an excellent jûdôka may be beaten by a mediocre MMA person as an entirely different ball park and environment is applied that no longer coincides with the part of jûdô practised and prepared for in IJF shiai jûdô.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:25 am

    judoratt wrote:
    beyondgrappling wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:At the Sambo world's last year 18 people died from this technique and a further 347 were hospitalized,  it's really dangerous.

    In other news every judo a I spar with falls for it with little effort on my part and no resulting inuries, I teach this one as a beginners move as part of the anti pick up to counter combo.

    I thought for an anti pickup you would do a kouchi not a grape vine? With a grape vine they can still do the uchimata ride and roll counter (others call it stretchy...I don't know what it's called)

      I regularly use a Koichi hook along with a high grip to limit and or control a pick up from uchimata or harai.

    I was teaching that 2 weeks ago...my teacher taught it to me years ago when pickups started getting popular. Saved me many, many times. My student was amazed that it worked...


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:32 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:Khabarelli...I think Daigo adresses how it fits into the Kodokan system in his book, which I do not have with me. I think it's considered a kind of Hikkomi Gaeshi. The kawazu issue isn't a factor, as uke is not thrown backwards with tori landing on him more or less.

    I thought, as some have mentioned, that Kawazu Gake (in Judo at least) has specific criteria to be hansokumake, i.e., the falling backwards onto uke (pretty much straight back). That is what I was taught for years and years as a referee...kawazu is simply the "grapevining", Kawazu Gake is a specific throw. I believe Daigo has an illustration of a hare and a frog grappling as well, with an explanation. I have also seen kawazu gake explained as a technique from sumo, and made famous in one match between two samurai...

    Anyway, I would not have called that hansokumake.

    I think one has to be careful not to cause confusion here for some readers. Daigo's book contains an extensive overview of proper jûdô throwing techniques, but that is an entirely different thing from what is allowed under IJF rules. I think one has to make clear that it isn't because it appears in Daigo's book that it may be performed in shiai under IJF rules or even under Kôdôkan rules. You can't perform daki-age either and this under both systems, but it still is an existing judo throw even though it has outlawed for so long that perhaps prof. Richard Riehle here might be the only one on this forum old enough to have still witnessed it in competition (in terms of speaking).

    Also note that reaping, hooking the leg away from the front side to the back while standing behind uke, has also been prohibited for a long time, though for some reason the IJF does not use the terminology kawazu-gake in that article though it is also a form of kawazu-gake.


    That is a good clarification to make.The OP was basically "what is this throw", which is what I was addressing, commingled with the "IJF legal or not" issue. Daigo does address what would/might be the Kodokan classification of what was/is called the "khabarelli", named for the famous judoka who made it famous. In the mess of my life I forgot to go look it up yesterday...





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    judoratt

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by judoratt on Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:48 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    judoratt wrote:
    beyondgrappling wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:At the Sambo world's last year 18 people died from this technique and a further 347 were hospitalized,  it's really dangerous.

    In other news every judo a I spar with falls for it with little effort on my part and no resulting inuries, I teach this one as a beginners move as part of the anti pick up to counter combo.

    I thought for an anti pickup you would do a kouchi not a grape vine? With a grape vine they can still do the uchimata ride and roll counter (others call it stretchy...I don't know what it's called)

      I regularly use a Koichi hook along with a high grip to limit and or control a pick up from uchimata or harai.

    I was teaching that 2 weeks ago...my teacher taught it to me years ago when pickups started getting popular. Saved me many, many times. My student was amazed that it worked...

    Yes it has kept many of the biger boys from throwing me across the dojo, I actually feel very comfortable with my feet off the ground as long as the hook is in. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes 

    Ricebale

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    Re: What on earth is this technique

    Post by Ricebale on Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:00 pm

    All good discussion, good to see people agreeing with each other, everything works within it's own paradigm Smile

    I encourage people with 5 mins to spare to watch this chidoba video of match, you will see exactly where this technique group comes from, you will also notice the use of the grapevine (obviv) to prevent the pick ups, the "ko-uchi block" is not really used as it is next to useless against a back arch.



    The match itself is a regional level event but very technical, for those that don't know the rules of this traditional sport the opponents can't touch the legs with the hands but may trip and throw in any other method (sound familiar), to score you must make the opponents back touch the ground. This sport was one of the main influences on Soviet Sambo development.

    cheers

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