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    Is it legal in a judo shiai?

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    Emanuele2

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    Is it legal in a judo shiai?

    Post by Emanuele2 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:53 am

    Is it legal in a judo competition the ju jitsu technique shown at 1:48?

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Is it legal in a judo shiai?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:22 am

    Emanuele2 wrote:Is it legal in a judo competition the ju jitsu technique shown at 1:48?


    'Legal' ?  You mean if police will arrive with a S.W.A.T. team, force you to lie on the ground, put you in handcuffs, arrest you, take you to jail, and you will have to appear before a judge and jury who might potentially convict you because of having committed a criminal offense ?  No, I don't think there is anything illegal about it. Unless of course at the bus stop you sneak up from behind to an 80-year old lady or some girl you have been fancying and who does not know you, then chances are it will be considered illegal and you might find yourself posing for mug shots.

    If on the other hand your question is if this is allowed as a valid technique under IJF judo refereeing rules, I would ask you what your judo competitive experience is ?  There is one good thing about judo, and most people on this forum who have extensive judo competitive experience, will agree with me. Judo puts you with both feet on the ground, at least figuratively speaking. Competition is an eye-opener. You will quickly see what works and what no, what is realistic and what is wooshiwooshi kind of stuff. Acrobatic kind of stuff is good for ninja movies, the Beijing Opera, or the Cirque du Soleil, but it usually has no place on a judo tatami not because there is some rule against it but it is under most circumstances not realistic, unless you might find your purpose of life in become a judo show contender, in which case one might even find this the thing to do. Personally, I am already very happy if a jûdô student masters basic tai-sabaki, de-ashi-barai or ô-soto-gari.


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    Emanuele2

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    Re: Is it legal in a judo shiai?

    Post by Emanuele2 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:37 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Emanuele2 wrote:Is it legal in a judo competition the ju jitsu technique shown at 1:48?


    'Legal' ?  You mean if police will arrive with a S.W.A.T. team, force you to lie on the ground, put you in handcuffs, arrest you, take you to jail, and you will have to appear before a judge and jury who might potentially convict you because of having committed a criminal offense ?  No, I don't think there is anything illegal about it. Unless of course at the bus stop you sneak up from behind to an 80-year old lady or some girl you have been fancying and who does not know you, then chances are it will be considered illegal and you might find yourself posing for mug shots.

    If on the other hand your question is if this is allowed as a valid technique under IJF judo refereeing rules, I would ask you what your judo competitive experience is ?  There is one good thing about judo, and most people on this forum who have extensive judo competitive experience, will agree with me. Judo puts you with both feet on the ground, at least figuratively speaking. Competition is an eye-opener. You will quickly see what works and what no, what is realistic and what is wooshiwooshi kind of stuff. Acrobatic kind of stuff is good for ninja movies, the Beijing Opera, or the Cirque du Soleil, but it usually has no place on a judo tatami not because there is some rule against it but it is under most circumstances not realistic, unless you might find your purpose of life in become a judo show contender, in which case one might even find this the thing to do. Personally, I am already very happy if a jûdô student masters basic tai-sabaki, de-ashi-barai or ô-soto-gari.
    I never trained in judo and English is not my first language.

    BillC

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    Re: Is it legal in a judo shiai?

    Post by BillC on Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:50 am

    Emanuele2 wrote:Is it legal in a judo competition the ju jitsu technique shown at 1:48?


    E2 ... sure, why not?  Doesn't seem to break any rules.

    Probable and practical?  Probably not.

    Principle of maximum efficiency?  No.

    999,999 times out of 1,000,000 conscious attempts one would get dumped on the back of the head.

    Direct question, direct opinion in response.

    Have a great weekend.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

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    Emanuele2

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    Re: Is it legal in a judo shiai?

    Post by Emanuele2 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:02 am

    BillC wrote:
    Emanuele2 wrote:Is it legal in a judo competition the ju jitsu technique shown at 1:48?


    E2 ... sure, why not?  Doesn't seem to break any rules.

    Probable and practical?  Probably not.

    Principle of maximum efficiency?  No.

    999,999 times out of 1,000,000 conscious attempts one would get dumped on the back of the head.

    Direct question, direct opinion in response.

    Have a great weekend.
    Thanks bro!
    Love these kind of answers.

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Is it legal in a judo shiai?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:23 am

    Emanuele2 wrote:I never trained in judo and English is not my first language.

    That's OK, Emanuele2, you're doing just fine, and I realize the difficult of expressing yourself in a language that is not your own. I was just writing "tongue-in-cheek" understanding that you were using terminology others, including native speakers, have used before.

    I did not know you were not a jûdôka. Thanks for clearing that up.

    Best wishes !


    _________________


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    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
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    heikojr

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    Re: Is it legal in a judo shiai?

    Post by heikojr on Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:28 am

    Ha!I thought he asked about the technique at 1:28. The one where everyone is high fiving and hugging! I was expecting answers like: at the beginning of the match it's illegal, at the end it's legal!

    Steve Leadbeater

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    Re: Is it legal in a judo shiai?

    Post by Steve Leadbeater on Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:07 am

    1.48...... Perfectly Legal..........but why would you.

    BillC

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    Re: Is it legal in a judo shiai?

    Post by BillC on Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:17 am

    Steve Leadbeater wrote:1.48......  Perfectly Legal..........but why would you.

    So that slow-witted slobs like me would have to try to scroll back and forth in a YouTube video to figure out the answer to the self-posed question "wait, what just happened?"  Rolling Eyes 


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Is it legal in a judo shiai?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:08 pm

    BillC wrote:
    Steve Leadbeater wrote:1.48......  Perfectly Legal..........but why would you.

    So that slow-witted slobs like me would have to try to scroll back and forth in a YouTube video to figure out the answer to the self-posed question "wait, what just happened?"  Rolling Eyes 

    Ju jutsu (some of it) has what is called a "duo" or cooperative demonstration type of competition between pairs of competitors. Not sure if that clip was from a "duo" competition or not.

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Is it legal in a judo shiai?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:52 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    BillC wrote:
    Steve Leadbeater wrote:1.48......  Perfectly Legal..........but why would you.

    So that slow-witted slobs like me would have to try to scroll back and forth in a YouTube video to figure out the answer to the self-posed question "wait, what just happened?"  Rolling Eyes 

    Ju jutsu (some of it) has what is called a "duo" or cooperative demonstration type of competition between pairs of competitors. Not sure if that clip was from a "duo" competition or not.

    I am already glad they didn't show "the Chinese Butterfly" ...  Cool 


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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    Emanuele2

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    Re: Is it legal in a judo shiai?

    Post by Emanuele2 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:17 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:Ju jutsu (some of it) has what is called a "duo" or cooperative demonstration type of competition between pairs of competitors. Not sure if that clip was from a "duo" competition or not.
    Yes, it is a duo competition.
    The other competition is fighting system, that it's not cooperative.

    Ryvai

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    Re: Is it legal in a judo shiai?

    Post by Ryvai on Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:09 pm

    Although this looks a bit like a circus act it is possible in shiai (with years of training) and with the risk of a broken neck or even worse hansoku-make(!). The Georgian judoka Georgii Zantaraia is a master of this type of osoto-gari counter, which I believe is refered to as chūgaeri?

    Here are two guys trying to emulate the zantaraia move;


    Two guys doing chūgaeri with udehishigi-waki-gatame as finish (this has been posted before);

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Is it legal in a judo shiai?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:16 pm

    Ryvai wrote:Although this looks a bit like a circus act it is possible in shiai (with years of training) and with the risk of a broken neck or even worse hansoku-make(!). The Georgian judoka Georgii Zantaraia is a master of this type of osoto-gari counter, which I believe is refered to as chūgaeri?

    Here are two guys trying to emulate the zantaraia move;

    Two guys doing chūgaeri with udehishigi-waki-gatame as finish (this has been posted before);

    As I wrote higher, jûdô competition is a reality check and any jûdôka with a lot of competitive experience will tell you that there may be lots of technical things they master, some they might even be able to pull off in a local club, but when on the tatami in a real situation, there are all kinds of things one have to take in mind. Even as a coach I remind my people not to do certain techniques in competition. Why ? A simple reason might be unfamiliarity of the the referee. I have a long time ago, done things in competition as simple as perfectly countering my opponent's tai-otoshi with sumi-gaeshi with as a consequence my opponent getting waza-ari because the ref taught he threw me on my back. Given that jûdô competition is a (in theory) a very dynamic event where you face extremely well trained opponent, the last thing to do is wooshiwooshi and the kind of reasoning that this and that would theoretically be possible if so and so, really has no place, even if somewhere there exists a YouTube video showing so and so. Competition is no driven by succeeding in some things that is so unique you end up in YouTube. It is driven by winning and hoping not to make a complete fool of yourself by trying some acrobacy that might result in losing an otherwise guaranteed medal. Such discussions are as useful and mature as "well, uh huh if you put Chuck Norris, and Bruce Lee and Jacky Chan and Arnold Schwarzenegger and the hulk and JudoRonda on a tatami in gi, who would win ?" or "who is the best jûdôka ever" and similar nonsense.

    There's a clip somewhere on YouTube of some Russian girl standing on her hands, grabbing a bow with her feet, using her feet to put an arrow on it, and shooting it right into the bull's eye. Stunning, no doubt, but whether we are soon going to see someone do that in the Olympics archery event, I doubt. I have no idea about what feeds people's obsession with turning events into some kind of freak show. Want to do something useful in jûdô ? Go assist in a local jûdô club teaching children, mentally disabled people, or open your own jûdô club dealing with all the hassle that it takes to guide someone through learning basic ukemi, a simple throw, preparing a student successful for a jûdô rank instead, educated novices, having to take and bear responsibility for the safety and learning of others, giving something back to the jûdô community, putting time and effort into something without getting paid or someone possibly even saying 'thank you'. Experience reality, if you please. For the rest, people, please, get a life ! It is already tough enough to research things in jûdô where one need to seek for historic evidence to answer some conundrum, having to plow through sources nobody has ever heard of, having to check, cross-check, attempting to understand what it means, having to sit down and interview with people who have forgotten more jûdô than we will ever know. DO SOMETHING USEFUL !! There is so much we could do that is ... somewhat useful, please ...


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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    GregW

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    Re: Is it legal in a judo shiai?

    Post by GregW on Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:44 pm

    A referee would probably award the other guy a yuko for it.

    BillC

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    Re: Is it legal in a judo shiai?

    Post by BillC on Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:10 am

    Ryvai wrote: The Georgian judoka Georgii Zantaraia is a master of this type of osoto-gari counter, which I believe is refered to as chūgaeri?

    Ry-guy ... look again at the OP ... I think it's possible you have missed who threw who ... and how they did it.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    Ryvai

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    Re: Is it legal in a judo shiai?

    Post by Ryvai on Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:20 am

    BillC wrote:
    Ryvai wrote: The Georgian judoka Georgii Zantaraia is a master of this type of osoto-gari counter, which I believe is refered to as chūgaeri?

    Ry-guy ... look again at the OP ... I think it's possible you have missed who threw who ... and how they did it.

    Yes I see it Billy Boy, the movement is initiated by the guy landing on top, but this could have been a show for all I know Smile

    Still I believe the movement is almost the same, in shiai it would look more like Zantaraia in my opinion. Doing the move in OP's post would be tremendously difficult in real shiai, however the version of Zantaraia is very real.

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Is it legal in a judo shiai?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:07 am

    Emanuele2 wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:Ju jutsu (some of it) has what is called a "duo" or cooperative demonstration type of competition between pairs of competitors. Not sure if that clip was from a "duo" competition or not.
    Yes, it is a duo competition.
    The other competition is fighting system, that it's not cooperative.

    If the "throw" in question is done in the "duo" then it's not really a throw but acrobatics. In which case, it's not very realistic. Cool to watch, though.


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    beyondgrappling

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    Re: Is it legal in a judo shiai?

    Post by beyondgrappling on Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:38 pm

    I liked the move at 0:43

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