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    Signing over your belt between different countries/organisations

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    Gus

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    Signing over your belt between different countries/organisations

    Post by Gus on Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:50 am

    This has been an issue for me in the past - normally this isnt a problem but sometimes it can get overly bureaucratic and cause problems eg my blue Belt was Spanish - getting it signed over to a UK/Irish group proved to be a pain . Is there some sort of international protocol for this ? I'm assuming that the federation should be affiliated with the IJF ? but not all of them are - has anyone any insight into this ?


    Last edited by Gus on Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:07 am; edited 1 time in total

    tafftaz

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    Re: Signing over your belt between different countries/organisations

    Post by tafftaz on Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:17 am

    I had this issue with a female judoka from Russia years ago. She held a masters of sports in judo. Apparently equivalent to first dan (not 100% sure on that one still though).
    Took a few phone calls and letters but we got there in the end.
    Not helpful to you I know but I understand your frustration.

    PointyShinyBurning

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    Re: Signing over your belt between different countries/organisations

    Post by PointyShinyBurning on Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:02 am

    tafftaz wrote:I had this issue with a female judoka from Russia years ago. She held a masters of sports in judo. Apparently equivalent to first dan (not 100% sure on that one still though).
    Being a "Master of Sport" in the Soviet system meant you were a National Champion, so a slightly bigger deal than a 1st Dan.

    tafftaz

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    Re: Signing over your belt between different countries/organisations

    Post by tafftaz on Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:07 am

    Not by her level of judo it was not, but in all fairness I only judged her by what I could see myself and what she had told me. So my comparison was solely based on my own experience. I in no way meant to diminish anyone who has reached master of sports level in their native land.

    By the way pointy I know of a few national champions who were only shodan when they first won.

    medo

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    Re: Signing over your belt between different countries/organisations

    Post by medo on Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:49 am

    Yes it can be difficult over the years I have had USAF shodan's and many from other associations, problem I had was considerable skill and knowledge levels and its my reputation if I put forward an approval for recognition of the grade, my head on the chopping block. So what I have done in the past is get them up to speed with syllabus and have them fight their equivalent grade at a national or area grading.

    I also had an 11year old blue belt turn up from a weird association, who after one lesson realised that there was a major difference in skill level. Chatting honesty with both him and his parents I suggested we start him at green. It took 4yrs before he made blue.

    Going the other way I had two white belts that were clearly not white belts turn up at my club and when questioned they held grades with another association and thought it was correct to come to my club wearing white belts! after a chat the two went and got there proper grade out of there holdalls........
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Signing over your belt between different countries/organisations

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:34 am

    tafftaz wrote:Not by her level of judo it was not, but in all fairness I only judged her by what I could see myself and what she had told me. So my comparison was solely based on my own experience. I in no way meant to diminish anyone who has reached master of sports level in their native land.

    By the way pointy I know of a few national champions who were only shodan when they first won.

    There are also cases of people who became European Champion while still being 1st kyû.


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Signing over your belt between different countries/organisations

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:38 am

    In general, the rule applies: the lower the grade, the easier to transfer it. The higher the grade, the more visual become and the more threatening it becomes to those holding similar ranks. Judo is rather territorial and politicized and oftentimes factors get involved that have nothing to do with facts, and oftentimes judo federations do not even adhere to their own rules. When you perceive that that is happening it is probably already too late, but it will help you wonder about all these high and respected principles such as ji-ta kyô-ei which which everyone likes to wave in front of beginners' eyes as well as those of practitioners of other sports.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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    Jonesy

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    Re: Signing over your belt between different countries/organisations

    Post by Jonesy on Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:18 pm

    medo wrote:
    ...I also had an 11year old blue belt turn up from a weird association, who after one lesson realised that there was a major difference in skill level. Chatting honesty with both him and his parents I suggested we start him at green. It took 4yrs before he made blue.
    Four years from green to blue - are we talking about advancing 1 kyu, or were there 3 intermediate mons? To be honest such slow advancement at pretty low grades does not sound like a balanced syllabus or an evaluation system that truly reflects the significance of these grades.

    medo

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    Re: Signing over your belt between different countries/organisations

    Post by medo on Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:19 pm

    Jonesy wrote:
    medo wrote:Yes it can be difficult over the years I have had USAF shodan's and many from other associations, problem I had was considerable skill and knowledge levels and its my reputation if I put forward an approval for recognition of the grade, my head on the chopping block. So what I have done in the past is get them up to speed with syllabus and have them fight their equivalent grade at a national or area grading.

    I also had an 11year old blue belt turn up from a weird association, who after one lesson realised that there was a major difference in skill level. Chatting honesty with both him and his parents I suggested we start him at green. It took 4yrs before he made blue.

    Going the other way I had two white belts that were clearly not white belts turn up at my club and when questioned they held grades with another association and thought it was correct to come to my club wearing white belts! after a chat the two went and got there proper grade out of there holdalls........
    Four years from green to blue???

    Yep yellow/orange is where he should have been, green is to me a "steady" grade, blue suggesting some competence and skill level to which he had yet to achieve which both him and his parents agreed with and I was happy with.
    First year he improved considerably then we began to see him off and on for the next few years, he was not a strong competitor but enjoyed helping the small ones with their ukemi. Sadly he never made it to a senior grade.
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    Stevens

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    Re: Signing over your belt between different countries/organisations

    Post by Stevens on Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:53 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:In general, the rule applies: the lower the grade, the easier to transfer it. The higher the grade, the more visual become and the more threatening it becomes to those holding similar ranks. Judo is rather territorial and politicized and oftentimes factors get involved that have nothing to do with facts, and oftentimes judo federations do not even adhere to their own rules. When you perceive that that is happening it is probably already too late, but it will help you wonder about all these high and respected principles such as ji-ta kyô-ei which which everyone likes to wave in front of beginners' eyes as well as those of practitioners of other sports.

    In the Netherlands the story goes that members (judoka/teachers/kodansha) of some other Dutch federations (IMAF/CJJF) are in discussion to get into the official IJF National Judo Body of the Netherlands.

    Why?? To get more members! Some of those teachers/kodansha never did a paid course or exam after there 1th dan and are now 7th dan judo/jiujitsu!

    Even the Dutch body for jiujitsu and judo teachers (NVJJL) are trying to get the Imaf-teachers into their organisation for more members!

    It's for the student to keep on lookin' for their path and for teachers to keep faith in themselfs!

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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Signing over your belt between different countries/organisations

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:31 am

    Stevens wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:In general, the rule applies: the lower the grade, the easier to transfer it. The higher the grade, the more visual become and the more threatening it becomes to those holding similar ranks. Judo is rather territorial and politicized and oftentimes factors get involved that have nothing to do with facts, and oftentimes judo federations do not even adhere to their own rules. When you perceive that that is happening it is probably already too late, but it will help you wonder about all these high and respected principles such as ji-ta kyô-ei which which everyone likes to wave in front of beginners' eyes as well as those of practitioners of other sports.

    In the Netherlands the story goes that members (judoka/teachers/kodansha) of some other Dutch federations (IMAF/CJJF) are in discussion to get into the official IJF National Judo Body of the Netherlands.

    Why??  To get more members! Some of those teachers/kodansha never did a paid course or exam after there 1th dan and are now 7th dan judo/jiujitsu!

    Even the Dutch body for jiujitsu and judo teachers (NVJJL) are trying to get the Imaf-teachers into their organisation for more members!

    It's for the student to keep on lookin' for their path and for teachers to keep faith in themselfs!


    As long as the attitude remains that a rank from an IJF member federation is per definition better, real, superior, and all the rest inferior, fake, self-promotion problems that have been prevanlent since the start of judo in the West will prevail. Whether someone did a course or not does not really matter. A person's skill should be tested at the exam and where he or she obtained that knowledge is little relevant. You say that such initiative is just to get more members, but that seems speculation to me. What do you suggest that everyone remains separate, does not talk to each other and remain in their ivory tower considering themselves as the only real ranks and everyone fake. Have you looked at the history of the JBN ? It's as ugly as it can. It wasn't there just from day one with some kind of mystic superior skill. All federations have to go through a process of growing ... hopefully, people can learn from each other and that can only be recommended.

    Whether or not someone comes from IMAF or from God knows what organization is not very important. What is important that they get the best qualified and knowledgeable people to teach and advance others and have people talk with one another, work with one another and contribute to the real meaning of jita kyô-ei. A person's knowledge and skill is shown on the tatami, not by the name of an organization on some card. Both the IJF and the Kôdôkan have sold ranks and the JBN has made ridiculous promotions in the past too. It's not a matter of who is better. That is not the lesson judo is trying to teach. Judo tries to teach prosperity for everyone, and talking and collaborating is a much better start rather than bathing in the conviction of how superior one's own organization is.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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    Stevens

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    Re: Signing over your belt between different countries/organisations

    Post by Stevens on Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:54 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Stevens wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:In general, the rule applies: the lower the grade, the easier to transfer it. The higher the grade, the more visual become and the more threatening it becomes to those holding similar ranks. Judo is rather territorial and politicized and oftentimes factors get involved that have nothing to do with facts, and oftentimes judo federations do not even adhere to their own rules. When you perceive that that is happening it is probably already too late, but it will help you wonder about all these high and respected principles such as ji-ta kyô-ei which which everyone likes to wave in front of beginners' eyes as well as those of practitioners of other sports.

    In the Netherlands the story goes that members (judoka/teachers/kodansha) of some other Dutch federations (IMAF/CJJF) are in discussion to get into the official IJF National Judo Body of the Netherlands.

    Why??  To get more members! Some of those teachers/kodansha never did a paid course or exam after there 1th dan and are now 7th dan judo/jiujitsu!

    Even the Dutch body for jiujitsu and judo teachers (NVJJL) are trying to get the Imaf-teachers into their organisation for more members!

    It's for the student to keep on lookin' for their path and for teachers to keep faith in themselfs!


    As long as the attitude remains that a rank from an IJF member federation is per definition better, real, superior, and all the rest inferior, fake, self-promotion problems that have been prevanlent since the start of judo in the West will prevail. Whether someone did a course or not does not really matter. A person's skill should be tested at the exam and where he  or she obtained that knowledge is little relevant. You say that such initiative is just to get more members, but that seems speculation to me. What do you suggest that everyone remains separate, does not talk to each other and remain in their ivory tower considering themselves as the only real ranks and everyone fake. Have you looked at the history of the JBN ?  It's as ugly as it can. It wasn't there just from day one with some kind of mystic superior skill. All federations have to go through a process of growing  ... hopefully, people can learn from each other and that can only be recommended.

    Whether or not someone comes from IMAF or from God knows what organization is not very important. What is important that they get the best qualified and knowledgeable people to teach and advance others and have people talk with one another, work with one another and contribute to the real meaning of jita kyô-ei. A person's knowledge and skill is shown on the tatami, not by the name of an organization on some card. Both the IJF and the Kôdôkan have sold ranks and the JBN has made ridiculous promotions in the past too. It's not a matter of who is better. That is not the lesson judo is trying to teach. Judo tries to teach prosperity for everyone, and talking and collaborating is a much better start rather than bathing in the conviction of how superior one's own organization is.

    Good story, but we all know that most judoka (and teachers) don't study judo. They never heard about this forum, they never come outside their own dojo after getting a teacherlicense. Most people take the easy (cheap) way to get a license or a official status. So get it at a small federation and convert it in a national organisation!

    "What is important that they get the best qualified and knowledgeable people to teach and advance others and have people talk with one another, work with one another and contribute to the real meaning of jita kyô-ei. A person's knowledge and skill is shown on the tatami."  

    I would say: This is Judo! But i don't see it, only a small group of judoka in my neighbourhood is living like this, the rest is busy with their ego! We'll see what's going to happen in Holland.
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    finarashi

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    Re: Signing over your belt between different countries/organisations

    Post by finarashi on Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:05 am

    Stevens wrote:

    Good story, but we all know that most judoka (and teachers) don't study judo. They never heard about this forum, they never come outside their own dojo after getting a teacherlicense. Most people take the easy (cheap) way to get a license or a official status. So get it at a small federation and convert it in a national organisation!

    "What is important that they get the best qualified and knowledgeable people to teach and advance others and have people talk with one another, work with one another and contribute to the real meaning of jita kyô-ei. A person's knowledge and skill is shown on the tatami."  

    I would say: This is Judo! But i don't see it, only a small group of judoka in my neighbourhood is living like this, the rest is busy with their ego! We'll see what's going to happen in Holland.
    One funny thing that I have noticed when discussing this conversion with Judoka wanting to transfer their belt to our belt (yes, I'm one of those monstruous, towering figures, who grade each other) is that having any kind of test, even asking to see how they act and behave on the mat is seen as insult. Any other method of solving grade transfer is applicable except actually showing what one knows.

    The same thing applies to advancement to higher grades too.


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    Stevens

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    Re: Signing over your belt between different countries/organisations

    Post by Stevens on Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:30 am

    finarashi wrote:
    Stevens wrote:

    Good story, but we all know that most judoka (and teachers) don't study judo. They never heard about this forum, they never come outside their own dojo after getting a teacherlicense. Most people take the easy (cheap) way to get a license or a official status. So get it at a small federation and convert it in a national organisation!

    "What is important that they get the best qualified and knowledgeable people to teach and advance others and have people talk with one another, work with one another and contribute to the real meaning of jita kyô-ei. A person's knowledge and skill is shown on the tatami."  

    I would say: This is Judo! But i don't see it, only a small group of judoka in my neighbourhood is living like this, the rest is busy with their ego! We'll see what's going to happen in Holland.
    One funny thing that I have noticed when discussing this conversion with Judoka wanting to transfer their belt to our belt (yes, I'm one of those monstruous, towering figures, who grade each other) is that having any kind of test, even asking to see how they act and behave on the mat is seen as insult. Any other method of solving grade transfer is applicable except actually showing what one knows.

    The same thing applies to advancement to higher grades too.

    The story is like CK tells: have respect for eachother, because it's of all times when it's about grades. Even in the world of all nations militaiy defense there's difference in getting a promotion to a higher grade. When someone has this high grade everybody goes on there knees, like in budo; the highest grade is the BOSS! I laugh about these situations when the Boss is a big ego. I hate it when somebody changes his attitude (negative) to all his 5th dan collegeas at the moment he gets a promotion to 6th dan!

    When somebody wants something he has to work for it, so train/study and show/tell what you can and know! It's not an insult, but a chance.

    Gus

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    Re: Signing over your belt between different countries/organisations

    Post by Gus on Mon May 05, 2014 6:01 am

    [quote="Stevens"][quote="finarashi"]
    Stevens wrote:

    One funny thing that I have noticed when discussing this conversion with Judoka wanting to transfer their belt to our belt (yes, I'm one of those monstruous, towering figures, who grade each other) is that having any kind of test, even asking to see how they act and behave on the mat is seen as insult. Any other method of solving grade transfer is applicable except actually showing what one knows.


    The opposite has been true for me. It was four years since I got my blue belt and a lot of travelling for work meant I didnt have opportunity to grade even though I was training several times a week wherever I went. I settled in one country for a while . As a blue belt I could now throw most black belts and was obviously on the same sort of skill level as them - I even won a couple of gold medals. However my Judo organisation lets call them "Judo A" did not have enough blue belts at adult level for me to grade - the other Judo federation, "Judo B",  wouldnt let me join as I wasnt a member of the university and the only Judo B club wanted 100 euros up front, another 100 to join te club and then 60 to join the Judo B federation - plus they were trying to squeeze players out of their rival organisation Judo A which also didnt sit well with me by not letting there players compete in their tounaments etc. Luckily I was able to grade recently with a minimum of fuss (though still waiting on the documentation) , though it was getting to the point where belts no longer seemed to reflect skill levels. So yeah - all that Judo philosophy seems to get lost in the interfedration politics......

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