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    Japanese terminology for newaza positions and situations

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    TheJudoLife

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    Japanese terminology for newaza positions and situations

    Post by TheJudoLife on Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:55 am

    Hi Judoforum

    I recently heard someone refer to the 'guard' position as 'do-osae'. Something that was entirely new to me. This had me wondering if there are commonly used japanese terminology for the recurring newaza positions and types of technique such as turnovers, sweeps and turtle that have perhaps been lost or neglected in western Judo, beyond the classification of techniques as oesakomi waza, kansetsu waza and shime waza.

    If not, why not? When it comes to nage waza we have very specific terminology for different postures, stepping patterns and stances. Why do we have an equally comprehensive breakdown of the newaza situation?

    Apologies if this is the wrong sub forum for such a discussion, it seemed like the best place to ask.

    beyondgrappling

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    Re: Japanese terminology for newaza positions and situations

    Post by beyondgrappling on Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:39 am

    I was talking with a mate the other day about this exact thing so I would be interested to hear what insight people have in newaza terminology.
    For example what is guard? half guard? guard passing? escape? underhook? crossface? etc etc
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Japanese terminology for newaza positions and situations

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:26 am

    TheJudoLife wrote:Hi Judoforum

    I recently heard someone refer to the 'guard' position as 'do-osae'. Something that was entirely new to me. This had me wondering if there are commonly used japanese terminology for the recurring newaza positions and types of technique such as turnovers, sweeps and turtle that have perhaps been lost or neglected in western Judo, beyond the classification of techniques as oesakomi waza, kansetsu waza and shime waza.

    If not, why not? When it comes to nage waza we have very specific terminology for different postures, stepping patterns and stances. Why do we have an equally comprehensive breakdown of the newaza situation?

    Apologies if this is the wrong sub forum for such a discussion, it seemed like the best place to ask.

    Of course there are Japanese terms for everything that is judo. "Guard" is not judo terminology but BJJ terminology. Why are Japanese terms not more known ? Because most people in judo do not want to put time into learning new things, probably because it puts them in a pupil position. They rather like to dominate physically on the tatami.

    I have explained the majority of this terminology on the old forum, just I explained many more things. I understand the forum was then sold, and apparently some or even much of the information lost. Sorry. Things happen.


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    TheJudoLife

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    Re: Japanese terminology for newaza positions and situations

    Post by TheJudoLife on Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:25 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    TheJudoLife wrote:Hi Judoforum

    I recently heard someone refer to the 'guard' position as 'do-osae'. Something that was entirely new to me. This had me wondering if there are commonly used japanese terminology for the recurring newaza positions and types of technique such as turnovers, sweeps and turtle that have perhaps been lost or neglected in western Judo, beyond the classification of techniques as oesakomi waza, kansetsu waza and shime waza.

    If not, why not? When it comes to nage waza we have very specific terminology for different postures, stepping patterns and stances. Why do we have an equally comprehensive breakdown of the newaza situation?

    Apologies if this is the wrong sub forum for such a discussion, it seemed like the best place to ask.

    Of course there are Japanese terms for everything that is judo. "Guard" is not judo terminology but BJJ terminology. Why are Japanese terms not more known ? Because most people in judo do not want to put time into learning new things, probably because it puts them in a pupil position. They rather like to dominate physically on the tatami.

    I have explained the majority of this terminology on the old forum, just I explained many more things. I understand the forum was then sold, and apparently some or even much of the information lost. Sorry. Things happen.

    I think I remember your posts on this subject at the old forum. Am I correct in believing they also explained the difference between the approach to naming techniques in Judo, wherein the technique is named in such a way that illustrates the principle around which it operates, as opposed to in the west in which the name describes the action? All of this was posted back when I was an ikkyu eager to attain shodan by completing a line out (I forget the correct terminology for this, batsugan?) so was far more interested in learning how to put people through the floor, as such I did not make a note of it or bookmark the page.

    If you could find the time to repeat yourself here, I for one would be grateful. Or failing that, point me in the direction of literature in English that would contain the things I am looking for.
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    JudoSensei

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    Re: Japanese terminology for newaza positions and situations

    Post by JudoSensei on Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:43 am

    Here is info from one old post on the forum (not from CK):
    BJJ to Japanese
    "mount" = tateshihogatame
    "back mount" = ushirogatame
    "side mount" or "cross-side" = yokoshihogatame
    "North/South" or "69" = kamishihogatame
    "guard" = dojime
    "open guard" = choza or ashigarami
    "half guard" = ashigarami
    "passing the guard" = hairigata
    "snake move" = ebi
    "scissor sweep" = hasamigaeshi or kanibasami
    "elevator" = sumigaeshi
    "knee-on-the-belly" = ukigatame
    "Americana" = udegarami
    "Kimura" = udegarami
    "guillotine" = mae hadakajime
    "mata le„o" = ushiro hadakajime
    "cross choke" = jujijime
    "triangle" = sankakujime or sankakugatame

    DougNZ

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    Re: Japanese terminology for newaza positions and situations

    Post by DougNZ on Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:51 am

    I'm not sure I agree with 'do jime' for guard. The do jime I was taught was a ju-jitsu technique for crushing the trunk (specifically floating ribs / diaphragm - hence the 'jime'). It is not a technique we recommend because it puts a lot of lateral strain on tori's knees.

    That said, I guess 'do jime' provides a fair idea of what the guard is - locking / securing the waist.

    TheJudoLife

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    Re: Japanese terminology for newaza positions and situations

    Post by TheJudoLife on Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:54 am

    JudoSensei wrote:Here is info from one old post on the forum (not from CK):
    BJJ to Japanese
                           "mount" = tateshihogatame
                            "back mount" = ushirogatame
                            "side mount" or "cross-side" = yokoshihogatame
                            "North/South" or "69" = kamishihogatame
                            "guard" = dojime
                            "open guard" = choza or ashigarami
                            "half guard" = ashigarami
                            "passing the guard" = hairigata
                            "snake move" = ebi
                            "scissor sweep" = hasamigaeshi or kanibasami
                            "elevator" = sumigaeshi
                            "knee-on-the-belly" = ukigatame
                            "Americana" = udegarami
                            "Kimura" = udegarami
                            "guillotine" = mae hadakajime
                            "mata le„o" = ushiro hadakajime
                            "cross choke" = jujijime
                            "triangle" = sankakujime or sankakugatame

    Hi, thanks for the response, this is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. I also tried to generate a discussion on this subject over at reddit.com/r/judo and /u/Ryvai provided the following response;

    "There are many useful ne-waza terms. Some that are frequently used are; niju-garami (which means halfguard, the garami with your legs around the leg of uke), hairi-kata (sweeps in ne-waza, basicly reversing the position of uke/tori), yotsunbai (turtle position or 'on all fours'), do-osae (full guard), utsubushi (on the belly, flat on the ground), fusegi (defence or escape on the ground). Hope that helps Smile"

    I notice he gives niju-garami as the best way to describe 'half guard', does anyone know if both of these terms are valid? I understand the translations of most of the techniques posted above, though I am unsure as to some of the ones posted by /u/Ryvai. Yotsunbai, and utsubushi in particular intrigue me as I have not encountered either of these before. I would be interested if anyone is able to elaborate a little further on some of the translations. I assume that niju-garami does not actually mean 'half guard' for example. I think garami translates as 'lock' or 'entanglement' depending on the context, but 'niju' is new to me.

    Hairi-kata again is confusing to me. 'Kata' meaning 'model' or 'style' (also 'shoulder', but not here I guess), whereas 'hairi' sounds similar to 'harai' or 'hara' which as I understand it can be taken to mean 'sweep' and something I can't quite articulate involving manipulation of the judokas centre of gravity....

    Whilst I have no flair for languages, I try my best to wrap my head around how and why techniques are named as they are in Judo as I have found understanding this better helps me to understand the technique in question more. A typical example being seoi-nage, the commonly touted translation of 'one armed shoulder throw' offering no real benefit to helping someone understand the throw. Whereas 'carry back throw', which I have been lead to believe is more accurate a translation, does help in this regard.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Japanese terminology for newaza positions and situations

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:33 pm

    TheJudoLife wrote:

    Hi, thanks for the response, this is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. I also tried to generate a discussion on this subject over at reddit.com/r/judo and /u/Ryvai provided the following response;

    Interesting. I wonder why that response sounded so familiar ...

    TheJudoLife wrote:
    Hi, thanks for the response, this is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. I also tried to generate a discussion on this subject over at reddit.com/r/judo and /u/Ryvai provided the following response;

    "There are many useful ne-waza terms. Some that are frequently used are; niju-garami (which means halfguard, the garami with your legs around the leg of uke), hairi-kata (sweeps in ne-waza, basicly reversing the position of uke/tori), yotsunbai (turtle position or 'on all fours'), do-osae (full guard), utsubushi (on the belly, flat on the ground), fusegi (defence or escape on the ground). Hope that helps Smile"

    I notice he gives niju-garami as the best way to describe 'half guard', does anyone know if both of these terms are valid?

    I guess you will then have to ask 'him' ...


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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    beyondgrappling

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    Re: Japanese terminology for newaza positions and situations

    Post by beyondgrappling on Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:36 pm

    niju-garami sounds good to me

    TheJudoLife

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    Re: Japanese terminology for newaza positions and situations

    Post by TheJudoLife on Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:47 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    TheJudoLife wrote:

    Hi, thanks for the response, this is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. I also tried to generate a discussion on this subject over at reddit.com/r/judo and /u/Ryvai provided the following response;

    Interesting. I wonder why that response sounded so familiar ...

    TheJudoLife wrote:
    Hi, thanks for the response, this is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. I also tried to generate a discussion on this subject over at reddit.com/r/judo and /u/Ryvai provided the following response;

    "There are many useful ne-waza terms. Some that are frequently used are; niju-garami (which means halfguard, the garami with your legs around the leg of uke), hairi-kata (sweeps in ne-waza, basicly reversing the position of uke/tori), yotsunbai (turtle position or 'on all fours'), do-osae (full guard), utsubushi (on the belly, flat on the ground), fusegi (defence or escape on the ground). Hope that helps Smile"

    I notice he gives niju-garami as the best way to describe 'half guard', does anyone know if both of these terms are valid?

    I guess you will then have to ask 'him' ...

    I did ask 'him' to further elaborate in my response to what he posted (that I then posted here), I am just waiting for that response. I guess he(she?) Razz must be a very busy person and I shall just hope that they get around to responding to me. I appreciate that the questions I am asking do not necessarily have short and concise answers. In the meantime I shall continue my own research into this and other areas of Judo, hoping that some shining knight will emerge to escort me through the quagmire of misinformation that is the Judo community.
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    Ryvai

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    Re: Japanese terminology for newaza positions and situations

    Post by Ryvai on Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:32 pm

    TheJudoLife wrote:I did ask 'him' to further elaborate in my response to what he posted (that I then posted here), I am just waiting for that response.

    I am sorry If I forgot to respond to your question. You are TCamillo19 i presume? Most of the ne-waza terminology I know have come from the internet, mainly the old forum and this one. If you want an elaborate response there is noone more qualified, that I know of, than Cichorei Kano. He is very knowledgable and usually has an answer for anything Judo or Bruce Lee related. I can however try to answer some of the questions;


    • Niju-garami as I understand literally translates to something like 'double-cross-entanglement'. It's translation has nothing to do with the word "halfguard" as CK pointed out, that is modern terminology coming from BJJ, while niju-garami have existed for a long long time. The technique of niju-garami just happens to be what BJJ players later called; "Halfguard lockdown", where uke is in the position of yoko-shiho-gatame, but tori entraps uke with niju-garami, preventing him from passing or securing osae-komi.
    • Do-osae translates to something like 'trunk-hold', but someone more qualified can probably give you are more literal translation. 'Do' in this sense means the trunk of uke and 'Osae' means to restrict uke from moving or complying. Do-jime is what is often refered to as 'Scissor-choke' or 'Body-choke', much like what BJJ players call 'Body-triangle', it uses the same principle as Do-jime, except you use the leg as in sankaku across the belly or uke, compressing the lungs, making it hard to breathe.
    • Yotsunbai means turtle in Japanese. If the position 'Turtle' came before or after the japanese started calling this position that, I do not know. What came first, the chicken or the egg? You'd have to ask CK about this Smile
    • Utsubushi i do not know the literal translation, but I've seen this translated as 'belly down' or something like that.
    • Hairi-kata is what I've seen kashiwazaki-sensei and Katanishi-sensei used as terminology for sweeps, or reversing the position of uke/tori, or entries in ne-waza. I would love to see some decent translation to this term.


    Those are basically all terminology for positions I know in ne-waza. I wish I had more for you, but I cant find this information anywhere, as I do not read kanji yet Smile
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    Ryvai

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    Re: Japanese terminology for newaza positions and situations

    Post by Ryvai on Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:47 pm

    JudoSensei wrote:
                            "guard" = dojime
                            "half guard" = ashigarami
                            "passing the guard" = hairigata
                            "snake move" = ebi
                            "Americana" = udegarami
                            "Kimura" = udegarami  

    I think there should be a few corrections;

    • Guard = do-osae (do-jime is body choking, and is illegal)
    • Half guard = niju-garami (not the position, but the technique employed by the person with his back towards the ground, the position might have a different name)
    • Passing the guard = Hairi-kata
    • Snake move/Shrimping = Ebi / Gyaku-ebi (moving in the reversed direction, feet first). 'Ebi' means shrimp, on japanese.
    • Americana = Traditional ude-garami
    • Kimura = Also ude-garami, but often refered to with the informal name; gyaku-ude-garami. As it is in a reversed position.

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