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    Blind randori

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    Quicksilver

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    Blind randori

    Post by Quicksilver on Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:01 pm

    Greetings, fellow travelers to the grave

    A few questions regarding 'blind' randori (randori with your and/or your partners eyes closed, and hopefully with someone watching who'll warn you if someone's about to get thrown somewhere that might make for a rather uncomfortable landing).

    Have you tried/do you do this and if so with what frequency?

    What is your opinion regarding the usefulness or otherwise of blind randori as a training technique?

    Regards,

    -Q
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by genetic judoka on Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:05 am

    I use a form of it. it's more of blind moving nage komi not randori because we're taking turns, but it's a good tool for helping someone learn to play by feel. they say our brains react faster to tactile stimulus than they do to visual stimuli. so a tool for learning when someone feels off balance, as opposed to looking off balance, is a valuable tool.


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    sodo

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by sodo on Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:15 am

    most of the time I do randori like this.

    There are a lot of similar execises f.w. we used to train Ne Waza randori with boxing gloves on or while holding tennis balls to improve body control withjout relying on a strong grip.

    atb

    sodo


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    Hanon

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by Hanon on Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:02 am

    Quicksilver wrote:Greetings, fellow travelers to the grave

    A few questions regarding 'blind' randori (randori with your and/or your partners eyes closed, and hopefully with someone watching who'll warn you if someone's about to get thrown somewhere that might make for a rather uncomfortable landing).

    Have you tried/do you do this and if so with what frequency?

    What is your opinion regarding the usefulness or otherwise of blind randori as a training technique?

    Regards,

    -Q



    Many years ago this was not an uncommon practice. As you wrote it had to be supervised but then all judo was. With todays litigious society I wouldn't dare even entertain such a practice. Its a shame as such methods of practice did hold some value and where a change to average session.

    Be careful.

    Mike
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    JudoStu

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by JudoStu on Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:02 am

    Quicksilver wrote:Greetings, fellow travelers to the grave

    A few questions regarding 'blind' randori (randori with your and/or your partners eyes closed, and hopefully with someone watching who'll warn you if someone's about to get thrown somewhere that might make for a rather uncomfortable landing).

    Have you tried/do you do this and if so with what frequency?

    What is your opinion regarding the usefulness or otherwise of blind randori as a training technique?

    Regards,

    -Q



    we've done this a couple of times at my club and found it a useful exercise. Its also something I used to do quite regularly when I did Wing Chun many years. We would often Chi-sau blindfolded and just react to feel and touch. Once you have grips, Judo is pretty similar.


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    ThePieman

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by ThePieman on Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:43 am

    Randori with blindfolds is an excellent way to practice, you don't realise how hesitant you become using your eyes and how you feel your way into techniques; minimising risk.

    When blindfolded there is no halfway, if you want to throw with uchimata you need to wholeheartedly perform the technique, and as uke can't see it coming they need to use feel to defend it.

    The first time we tried this I was at a real disadvantage and have since learned a lesson, I was being chucked by judoka who don't normally get me off the ground, you may like to think that you use feel during randori but until you have to defend a full blooded harai in the dark.....

    Also, if you don't have any blindfolds just turn the lights off. What a Face What a Face



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    Last edited by ThePieman on Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Hanon

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by Hanon on Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:04 am

    I advise all to be extra cautious with this sort of activity. Imagine explaining to a judge what you where doing allowing your pupils to randori wearing a blind fold. if you think it would be acceptable do it. I stopped any such things some years ago. The European laws became so strict regarding 'sports' I just don't think the risk worth the benefit. Sorry to be an old nag.

    Mike

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by Guest on Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:08 am

    I have done it often and its a brilliant exercise. Obviously you need someone to mind you both to make sure you're not crashing in to walls or anything - sometimes I just close my eyes in Randori and feel my opponents balance. Anyway you stop using your eyes (visual feedback) and start using touch and sense of weight and balance of the opponent (haptic feedback) - the latter in my book is much much faster - I can actually throw people better when I have something wrapped over my eyes. Very very useful way of feeling your opponents balance (or lack thereof).
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    Dutch Budo

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by Dutch Budo on Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:16 am

    I dont think beginners should do this kind of excersizes as their reflexes arent good enough yet. Its a good excersize for advanced judoka though. Randori like this on the ground can be done faster, it helps to rely on feeling, not on sight so you have to relax.


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    Hanon

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by Hanon on Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:18 am

    Dew wrote:I have done it often and its a brilliant exercise. Obviously you need someone to mind you both to make sure you're not crashing in to walls or anything - sometimes I just close my eyes in Randori and feel my opponents balance. Anyway you stop using your eyes (visual feedback) and start using touch and sense of weight and balance of the opponent (haptic feedback) - the latter in my book is much much faster - I can actually throw people better when I have something wrapped over my eyes. Very very useful way of feeling your opponents balance (or lack thereof).



    Without doubt. I agree with you.

    Mike
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:35 am

    Hanon wrote:I advise all to be extra cautious with this sort of activity. Imagine explaining to a judge what you where doing allowing your pupils to randori wearing a blind fold. if you think it would be acceptable do it. I stopped any such things some years ago. The European laws became so strict regarding 'sports' I just don't think the risk worth the benefit. Sorry to be an old nag.

    Mike

    I agree, although probably amongst higher level judoka or people you trust the chances of a lawsuit in the rare chance of injury would be low.

    In any case, I've done the blindfolded randori/nagekomi drills (years ago, quite a bit). I found that it didn't help that much. Debana is very much a "gestalt" sort of thing, which includes direct and peripheral vision as well as kinaestetic awareness. I'd more commonly seen it done for novices, who could barely throw a moving uke with both eyes open anyway. Which didn't make much sense to me then or now.

    Hanon

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by Hanon on Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:41 am

    Regardless of how we train the objective of judo is to throw our partners mind.

    Only took me a life time to understand this.

    I do think as many variations as possible help us to become a complete judoka. No gi, close eyes, one arm, only defending, only attacking, the list is long.

    Mike
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:33 am

    Hanon wrote:Regardless of how we train the objective of judo is to throw our partners mind.

    Only took me a life time to understand this.

    I do think as many variations as possible help us to become a complete judoka. No gi, close eyes, one arm, only defending, only attacking, the list is long.

    Mike

    As in Aikido, lead the mind, eh? I agree, although I regret leading my own mind is enough of a struggle, nearly hopeless 9for me) to lead another's. My sensei used to say the same thing about leading the mind. He could herd people around the mat like a Border Collie without touching them at times.

    And variety is good an necessary for sure.

    Regards,
    Ben
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    ThePieman

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by ThePieman on Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:20 pm

    Of course this can be done with only one partner blindfolded which allows one to be responsible for the other. Idea


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    Stacey

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by Stacey on Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:36 pm

    yes. i love blind judo. i love playing with blind judoka. i love playing blindfolded.

    for those of you curious, but unwilling to risk liability, i suggest starting with blindfolded newaza. i also suggest that, without proper supervision, one member of each pair should have the ability to see enough to keep the partners out of trouble, though in my experience, people who are actually blind usually keep my seeing ass out of trouble more than i keep them out of trouble. But, i also know that they suffer some of the same problems sighted judoka face - the need to look where they're trying to throw uke, the tendency to look at feet when doing sweeping waza, etc. But, that doesn't mean there's no value to the exercise - it's just not a cure all for what we might think of as sight based problems.
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    judoratt

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by judoratt on Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:47 pm

    I do alot of blind typing. LaughingLaughing

    Great to see you again stacy.What a Face
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    Stacey

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by Stacey on Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:51 pm

    judoratt wrote:I do alot of blind typing. LaughingLaughing

    Great to see you again stacy.What a Face

    thanks!
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    JudoTerrier

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by JudoTerrier on Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:19 am

    I've done it and wish I could do more. It short-circuits my tendency to want to think about what I'm doing instead of feeling and moving.

    Erika

    Ragster

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by Ragster on Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:11 am

    We do this occasionally - monitored of course, and geenrally known who will be throwing.

    Sometimes one person blind, sometimes both. Only for the advanced classes.

    Not absolutely convinced of the value, but that may be down to not doing it regularly.
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    nomoremondays

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by nomoremondays on Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:19 am

    I have done randori with blind judoka. I close my own eyes then at times. Its a good change up. Though I sometimes cheat and sneak a peek to make sure we are not in danger of falling off the mat or something!

    GR3G4

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by GR3G4 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:40 am

    Dutch Budo wrote:I dont think beginners should do this kind of excersizes as their reflexes arent good enough yet. Its a good excersize for advanced judoka though. Randori like this on the ground can be done faster, it helps to rely on feeling, not on sight so you have to relax.

    I found "blind" exercises very useful with people who started practicing judo as adults (not necessarily beginners). Of course they did not do randori. I had tori (eyes closed) move uke (eyes open) around the mat and try entries for throws (no throwing). It turned out that most were doing it better than with their eyes open - some said it was easier as they had too much information to process if they watched.
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by genetic judoka on Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:46 am

    I did some blind nage komi this weekend. I find it is a very valuable tool. of course it's not so valuable that it's the only form of practice one should ever do, but it's a good addition to one's training routine if mat time isn't exceptionally limited.

    the benefit of this form of training is that it helps one realize that a person is off balance far more often than they look off balance.

    I remembered reading somewhere that our brains react far faster to tactile stimuli than it does to visual stimuli. and I believe it. I've done A LOT of blind nage komi, and "one sided randori" (which means taking turns as tori but with resistance). and I find that in regular randori and shiai, I don't look at my opponent anymore. I've learned to kinda disconnect from what my eyes are doing and go by feel. my eyes are open, and some have told me that I look kinda creepy because I just have this blank stare, my eyes may be pointed your direction, but I'm not looking at you. I'd close them entirely all the time, but I still pay attention to where I am on the mat in relation to other groups and/or the edge of the mat.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:59 am

    genetic judoka wrote:I did some blind nage komi this weekend. I find it is a very valuable tool. of course it's not so valuable that it's the only form of practice one should ever do, but it's a good addition to one's training routine if mat time isn't exceptionally limited.

    the benefit of this form of training is that it helps one realize that a person is off balance far more often than they look off balance.

    I remembered reading somewhere that our brains react far faster to tactile stimuli than it does to visual stimuli. and I believe it. I've done A LOT of blind nage komi, and "one sided randori" (which means taking turns as tori but with resistance). and I find that in regular randori and shiai, I don't look at my opponent anymore. I've learned to kinda disconnect from what my eyes are doing and go by feel. my eyes are open, and some have told me that I look kinda creepy because I just have this blank stare, my eyes may be pointed your direction, but I'm not looking at you. I'd close them entirely all the time, but I still pay attention to where I am on the mat in relation to other groups and/or the edge of the mat.

    As you move forward in your practice of Judo, you will probably get to the point to where it is like you have two different "mental" processes going on at the same time. One is related to your "blank stare" state of consciousness, the other the more analytical, thinking state. Then they can kind of run in parallel to where you can think cognitively about things, but at the same time your reactions and "automatic" responses will still be operating.

    I do that, but only if I'm off my meds!

    Ben

    NYCNewbie

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by NYCNewbie on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:19 pm

    It's funny- I do blind Newaza all the time. For some reason I just feel more relaxed closing my eyes- it's the only way I know of to play naturally.

    I should probably close my eyes is Tachi-waza as well. It couldn't hurt- it's not like I'd do any worse than I do with my eyes open.
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    forgeron judo

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    Re: Blind randori

    Post by forgeron judo on Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:34 am

    For many years, I have used blind exercises during nage komi to improve the sensitivity of judoka. In all the exercises, only one of the player is blind folded and the partner guide and correct the former. This kind of exerceises have proven their merits many times. They are done with safety in mind and we alternate roles, first in the attack, then in a defensive mode. each session will not last more than 15 minutes and is followed with regular practices. I found that it also permit the detection of additional opportunities derived from greater use of senses, perception of movement, detection of weight changes with directions and increse proprio-receptivity. Ukemis are also practiced within a blind environment. Blind exercises are on my training calender about once a month with the advanced class. It brings variety to the teaching methods and everyone enjoy himself.I love you

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