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    Judo - discussion on ex-soviet Judo

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    Ricebale

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    Judo - discussion on ex-soviet Judo

    Post by Ricebale on Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:15 pm

    Hey,

    In an off line conversation I was invited to talk about my Judo. As a guide I have posted some vid of me doing moves on a beach in the no-gi section, I will post here a "Russian" instructional:



    Note the use of the backward arch and close body/belt grips, this is very close to the type of judo I practice. The judoka in this series is quite a bit more fluent in his diversity of techniques than I am though.

    Essentially in my club the Sambo and Judo syllabus is the same, the throws taught are the same but the rules of engagement differ. As an aside the main focus of my club is Combat Sambo so the close grappling throws are paramount. I also don't care for the Olympic style but I do enjoy watching it, we compete against other judo clubs that allow full judo, fortunately there are two organisations in àustralia which still do this.

    I have a curiosity on the level of similarity in practice methods, for instance there is no bowing or photos of Kano etc and all throws are in English. As a benefit I send people who wish off to a friends club for Japanese grading as at this time there is no belt ranking structure for the type of Judo I am coaching, you are either a participant a competitor or a coach. As an aside I have trained in the Japanese style also, but left that to pursue this type of training.

    Happy to receive thoughts on this style and system as I am quite open and cool with the many paths same goal ethos.

    Cheers

    Ricebale

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    Re: Judo - discussion on ex-soviet Judo

    Post by Ricebale on Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:26 pm

    Just realised I didn't post the pickup vid, about 5:35 of this vid



    He is explaining the ura nage applications. This is very very similar to the base for the Judo I practice and the moves I'm doing in the beach vids.

    It's fun!

    heikojr

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    Re: Judo - discussion on ex-soviet Judo

    Post by heikojr on Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:07 am

    I grew up practicing traditional japanese judo. I have also worked with Igor Yakimaov many, many times. He's great! When you practice with him all grappling is the same, just the rules are different. Over the years i have modified alot of my judo. Sometime because of age, sometimes because a technique was better, sometimes because my technique was wrong. I love trying other types of grappling arts and seeing and practicing their style and adapting it to mine.

    You post alot of cool videos! Nice!

    heikojr

    Hanon

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    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Judo - discussion on ex-soviet Judo

    Post by Hanon on Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:07 am

    Ricebale wrote:Hey,

    In an off line conversation I was invited to talk about my Judo. As a guide I have posted some vid of me doing moves on a beach in the no-gi section, I will post here a "Russian" instructional:



    Note the use of the backward arch and close body/belt grips, this is very close to the type of judo I practice. The judoka in this series is quite a bit more fluent in his diversity of techniques than I am though.

    Essentially in my club the Sambo and Judo syllabus is the same, the throws taught are the same but the rules of engagement differ. As an aside the main focus of my club is Combat Sambo so the close grappling throws are paramount. I also don't care for the Olympic style but I do enjoy watching it, we compete against other judo clubs that allow full judo, fortunately there are two organisations in àustralia which still do this.

    I have a curiosity on the level of similarity in practice methods, for instance there is no bowing or photos of Kano etc and all throws are in English. As a benefit I send people who wish off to a friends club for Japanese grading as at this time there is no belt ranking structure for the type of Judo I am coaching, you are either a participant a competitor or a coach. As an aside I have trained in the Japanese style also, but left that to pursue this type of training.

    Happy to receive thoughts on this style and system as I am quite open and cool with the many paths same goal ethos.

    Cheers

    Kano Jigoro Shihan learned ju jutsu ryu. He changed them so changed the name of what he practiced then taught kodokan judo. PLEASE don't for a second think me confrontational or nasty when I write that I am confused by your post. If you don't use gi, no Japanese terminology, no ranks and the basis for the physical and psychological teaching differs to that degree how can you say its judo? Why not do what many other pioneers have done when they start their own ryu or style and give it a new name?

    I find what you are doing very interesting and would like to learn it and try it out. Its not judo though. I hope you can at least see my point and we can debate this in a friendly fashion.

    Sincerely,

    Mike

    nomoremondays

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    Re: Judo - discussion on ex-soviet Judo

    Post by nomoremondays on Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:56 am

    Ricebale wrote:
    Happy to receive thoughts on this style and system as I am quite open and cool with the many paths same goal ethos.

    Just to quickly clarify, are you looking for thoughts on judo done without a gi as shown in the previous video you posted in a different subforum OR on russian style judo as is evident in the videos you posted here?

    Ricebale

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    Re: Judo - discussion on ex-soviet Judo

    Post by Ricebale on Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:36 am

    Hey Mike,

    I also train in the Gi, it just doesn't do to we'll at the beach. Perhaps my wording was confusing, the back arch moves and pick ups are interchangeable with Gi to no Gi. The gi is a set of handles, rather. The concepts of these training methods are different and I see the point of the naming. The other name for what I do is Sambo but the line is blurry and they are not distinctly different, keep in mind I am not Russian so my observations are western.

    I should post more Gi stuff just that's it is so hot here at the moment and to be honest the no-gi gets attracts students in the door.

    Hey Nomore,

    I'm curious as to the "Russian" style, basically does anyone else practice these things etc. Edit: to clarify I have not "invented" anything, rather these are (and my stuff) existing training methods for Judo albeit non-jap based


    Last edited by Ricebale on Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:52 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added stuff)

    nomoremondays

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    Re: Judo - discussion on ex-soviet Judo

    Post by nomoremondays on Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:25 am

    Ricebale wrote:
    Hey Nomore,
    I'm curious as to the "Russian" style, basically does anyone else practice these things etc. Edit: to clarify I have not "invented" anything, rather these are (and my stuff) existing training methods for Judo albeit non-jap based

    ah ok. Here is my experience thus far with this stuff:
    I am mostly what you would call a classical player. However, I have one or two 'russian' style tricks or techniques that I whip out depending
    on the gripping style I have to face and the kind of partner I am playing with. Said another way, I will try my traditional judo style game in the
    beginning. Depending on my partners responses I sometimes move into unorthodox throws. Some examples are te-guruma type moves, belt/deep-back o goshi and ouchi gari and some other things where, generally speaking, the hand assists the finish of the throw .

    It all depends on the back and forth we are having. I am not a belt hunter or deep-back hunter from the get go. Also sometimes when faced with better players I will attempt these 'off angle' type moves to escape a bad situation too.
    When I am practicing I will practice my throws on a 80/20 sort of breakout. Taking the example of say ouchi gari from above, it means I will
    practice eight throws in the regular way and maybe two some 'other' way. Its a generalization. You get the idea.


    I have also had the pleasure of instructing beginners for a brief period. When I was doing that I insisted they start with getting good with the
    original methods first. This was because at that time it was my belief that the unorthodox moves are just variations which can be adapted
    with a lesser amount of sweat on a relative basis than the original move requires. I don't teach anymore. Thank god!

    Ricebale

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    Re: Judo - discussion on ex-soviet Judo

    Post by Ricebale on Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:20 am

    heikojr wrote:I grew up practicing traditional japanese judo. I have also worked with Igor Yakimaov many, many times. He's great! When you practice with him all grappling is the same, just the rules are different. Over the years i have modified alot of my judo. Sometime because of age, sometimes because a technique was better, sometimes because my technique was wrong. I love trying other types of grappling arts and seeing and practicing their style and adapting it to mine.

    You post alot of cool videos! Nice!

    heikojr

    Cool stuff, I'm glad you like my vids, I don't rehearse or edit them, my theory is this attracts people into the sport better so than otherwise. Come winter (June) ill do some Gi stuff. I aim at developmental techniques that aren't otherwise already in abundance, I'm such an individual lol

    It'd be good if we could get Igor out to Oz for some sessions, might have to look into that.

    Cheers


    Ricebale

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    Re: Judo - discussion on ex-soviet Judo

    Post by Ricebale on Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:26 am

    Hey Nomore,

    On observation he is covering a number of "Russian" traditions in throw variations in these vids. I conform closer to some of these only, lack of access to skilled training partners in this style is problematic down my way. I am fortunate enough to be in partnership with an old school UK judoka (5th dan) who had exposure to these styles, otherwise I get refreshed at the seminars by my ex-soviet coach.

    I actually opened my own club to help develop people so I would have people to train with, I have found I enjoy coaching so much I'm expanding into kids classes. I have three kids and a few parents with the same in the area also have asked me to start a class. It's funny how these things grow when you don't try Smile

    Cheers

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Judo - discussion on ex-soviet Judo

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:22 am

    Ricebale wrote:Hey,

    In an off line conversation I was invited to talk about my Judo. As a guide I have posted some vid of me doing moves on a beach in the no-gi section, I will post here a "Russian" instructional:



    Note the use of the backward arch and close body/belt grips, this is very close to the type of judo I practice. The judoka in this series is quite a bit more fluent in his diversity of techniques than I am though.

    Essentially in my club the Sambo and Judo syllabus is the same, the throws taught are the same but the rules of engagement differ. As an aside the main focus of my club is Combat Sambo so the close grappling throws are paramount. I also don't care for the Olympic style but I do enjoy watching it, we compete against other judo clubs that allow full judo, fortunately there are two organisations in àustralia which still do this.

    I have a curiosity on the level of similarity in practice methods, for instance there is no bowing or photos of Kano etc and all throws are in English. As a benefit I send people who wish off to a friends club for Japanese grading as at this time there is no belt ranking structure for the type of Judo I am coaching, you are either a participant a competitor or a coach. As an aside I have trained in the Japanese style also, but left that to pursue this type of training.

    Happy to receive thoughts on this style and system as I am quite open and cool with the many paths same goal ethos.

    Cheers

    I've watched those videos of Igor Y. before several times. As far as I'm concerned he's doing Judo, physically at least, and Sambo is basically judo with various russian folkstyle(s) mixed in. But the best Sambo I've seen looked like good Judo, or to not be prejudiced, vice versa.

    Gripping, movement, "back arching", don't matter, really. In fact, on the back arching part, that's done in Judo as well, in fact, in any sort of grappling involving throwing.

    Anyone who is proficient in "normal", "classical", Old school, however you want to phrase it, Judo, can change grips to close, etc., just fine. It was true in my case, and I see the Heikojr has done the same.

    Being closer with a tighter grip on uke allows more direct control and application of force to uke, hence, it can be or maybe seem) a bit easier to execute than an open flowing sort of throwing as in the "classical" style of Judo. Space equals time, and time equals ability to react/counter tori movement/attack.

    So to me there is not much difference, and what is there is pretty superficial.

    I think it is well for judoka to learn how to deal with the different ranges of grappling that occur.

    Ricebale

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    Re: Judo - discussion on ex-soviet Judo

    Post by Ricebale on Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:37 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    I've watched those videos of Igor Y. before several times. As far as I'm concerned he's doing Judo, physically at least, and Sambo is basically judo with various russian folkstyle(s) mixed in. But the best Sambo I've seen looked like good Judo, or to not be prejudiced, vice versa.

    Gripping, movement, "back arching", don't matter, really. In fact, on the back arching part, that's done in Judo as well, in fact, in any sort of grappling involving throwing.

    Anyone who is proficient in "normal", "classical", Old school, however you want to phrase it, Judo, can change grips to close, etc., just fine. It was true in my case, and I see the Heikojr has done the same.

    Being closer with a tighter grip on uke allows more direct control and application of force to uke, hence, it can be or maybe seem) a bit easier to execute than an open flowing sort of throwing as in the "classical" style of Judo. Space equals time, and time equals ability to react/counter tori movement/attack.

    So to me there is not much difference, and what is there is pretty superficial.

    I think it is well for judoka to learn how to deal with the different ranges of grappling that occur.

    I agree in the most part. It may be a regional variation but Judo in my country seems to emulate the Japanese model and lifts aren't really used outside of the ura nage in the nave no kata, when they do it it seems to look like this though which to me looks like little to no back arch:





    The above is fundamentally different to this type of arching which is typical in the pick up style of Judo:

    see from 2:00min of this vid for what I call a back arch



    (this is a very cool vid btw for russian technique exhibition)

    I think in all the above vids an ippon would be scored however to my eye the style is different in the Russian vids, there is significant more bnody contact from the beginning to end of the throws, a lot more lift too which may lead to the observation there is more power relied on in the russian technique I think.

    This is a good technical discussion btw, thankyou all for contributing.

    Cheers

    Ricebale

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    Re: Judo - discussion on ex-soviet Judo

    Post by Ricebale on Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:15 pm

    Hanon wrote:
    Kano Jigoro Shihan learned ju jutsu ryu. He changed them so changed the name of what he practiced then taught kodokan judo. PLEASE don't for a second think me confrontational or nasty when I write that I am confused by your post. If you don't use gi, no Japanese terminology, no ranks and the basis for the physical and psychological teaching differs to that degree how can you say its judo? Why not do what many other pioneers have done when they start their own ryu or style and give it a new name?

    I find what you are doing very interesting and would like to learn it and try it out. Its not judo though. I hope you can at least see my point and we can debate this in a friendly fashion.

    Sincerely,

    Mike

    Hey Mike,

    All good, you are correct to ask and I respect your depth of knowledge in these things.

    Not to derail this technical discussion but as a guide to no ranks at my club this I understand is common in the soviet sytem for all "non-shondan" equivalents. As was the use of the language of the area of practice, as an aside I use the term "uchimata" to distinguish from a high thigh throw to the low knee thigh throw seen in the Soviet style a lot.

    I will also sometimes describe techniques in the Japanese if I am distinguishing the variation from classical to what I practice eg Seoi Nage (Jap) = Spina (Rus) = arm throw (Eng), I prefer the term arm throw is all.

    I consider the use of English to speed the process of learning the throws, as in Japan there is no thought process adjustment by using Japanese for instance, so on a technical basis I believe the native language of the practitioner to be the more efficient vehicle for learning.

    I concede the loss of cultural transfer but I know little of Japanese culture or language so likely not the best vessel for that.

    Also I believe the Kodokan does not use kyu grades until dan grades:

    http://judopedia.com/index.php?title=Ranking_System_and_Belt_Colors (Brown belts are optional and are rarely worn.)

    I however concede they use the gi and also speak Japanese at the Kodokan Very Happy

    I'd have to turn to the USA and Freestyle Judo to provide an example of no-gi Judo

    I do however do not wish to debate this too much here as this is the technical part of the forum but your questions intrigued me so I gave them some thought and answered why I treat the period of time when I am not wearing a jacket but doing techniques from a Judo syllabus as to why I still consider it Judo practice.

    By no means am I an expert on these things, somewhat of a pioneer in my local region mayhap though so I cannot fully explain the situation.

    Cheers


    Last edited by Ricebale on Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling)

    finarashi

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    Re: Judo - discussion on ex-soviet Judo

    Post by finarashi on Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:53 am

    We should forget the Russian Judo accronym and create another. To me current Russian Judoka do highly Japanese style Judo. In the early days it was not Russians but e.g. Gerorgians who showed these unorthodox throws. OK, then they were classified under Russia and there was hardly any Russians in Russian Judo teams, but that is not true anymore.


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    Ricebale

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    Re: Judo - discussion on ex-soviet Judo

    Post by Ricebale on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:56 am

    finarashi wrote:We should forget the Russian Judo accronym and create another. To me current Russian Judoka do highly Japanese style Judo. In the early days it was not Russians but e.g. Gerorgians who showed these unorthodox throws. OK, then they were classified under Russia and there was hardly any Russians in Russian Judo teams, but that is not true anymore.

    I'm using the term "Russian" in the inverted commas for that reason to substitute for the USSR, in any event the dude I fall under is Ukrainian and he left just after the collapse. It's all very confusing, please read "Russian" as soviet.

    Apologies for the confusion, I agree to a large extent with observation on the modern national team.

    Ricebale

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    Re: Judo - discussion on ex-soviet Judo

    Post by Ricebale on Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:19 am

    Also by way of explanation as to purpose the modern rules are of no consequence to the practice.

    In Australia there are 3 organizations who run Judo competitions:

    The JFA who run the international IJF rules, the JFA is the official govt recognized body by the Oz Olympic etc
    The AJU which run traditional rules and freestyle competitions
    The AKJA which fun traditional rules and Kosen type rule events

    It is the AJU and AKJA whom I would be sending any competitors to (also to Sambo competitions). As such the Soviet style of gripping and attack is all still quite legal and the modern IJF approach is irrelevant to me.

    Cheers

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