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    Freestyle Judo: Yay or Nay?

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    sydvicious

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    Freestyle Judo: Yay or Nay?

    Post by sydvicious on Wed May 07, 2014 3:03 am

    I saw this on another forum some time ago and thought it was very interesting and I know many people will be for it.

    http://www.freestylejudo.org/

    I got flamed on here for saying I wanted to learn "real Judo", not "competition Judo" and I think the reason is that I just didn't express myself correctly. Thinking about it now, I should probably have said that I wanted to learn more about Judo, the martial art, than Judo, the sport.

    Anyway, technique wise, freestyle Judo is the same as "IJF Judo", except that leg grabs and all other IJF restrictions are still legal and you get more time for ne-waza. Anyone can enter competitions, no matter what orginisation you are affiliated to.
    it looks like it is currently only done in the US, but I wonder how long it will take to catch on globally...

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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Freestyle Judo: Yay or Nay?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed May 07, 2014 4:16 am

    sydvicious wrote:I saw this on another forum some time ago and thought it was very interesting and I know many people will be for it.

    http://www.freestylejudo.org/

    I got flamed on here for saying I wanted to learn "real Judo", not "competition Judo" and I think the reason is that I just didn't express myself correctly. Thinking about it now, I should probably have said that I wanted to learn more about Judo, the martial art, than Judo, the sport.

    Anyway, technique wise, freestyle Judo is the same as "IJF Judo", except that leg grabs and all other IJF restrictions are still legal and you get more time for ne-waza. Anyone can enter competitions, no matter what orginisation you are affiliated to.
    it looks like it is currently only done in the US, but I wonder how long it will take to catch on globally...

    Freestye judo is as much removed from Kanô's intentions as is current IJF disco judo. Osae-komi is not scoreable in seniors division, refs dressed in tricolor T-shirts, "In the “gi’ category, one athlete shall wear a white belt and one athlete shall wear a red, blue or green belt for purposes of identification for scoring", "(2) “No Gi” Category where the contestants shall be attired in standard judo pants to cover the legs (no shorts or other garment other than the accepted judo pants), regulation judo belt, a T-shirt, tank top, rash guard, body suit or other shirt", none of it sounds very much like "bringing back the golden age of judo". It sounds more like a third-term partial abortion.


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    JudoSensei

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    Re: Freestyle Judo: Yay or Nay?

    Post by JudoSensei on Wed May 07, 2014 8:50 am

    ...and it is definitely more about the sport than the martial art you are seeking.
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    Ricebale

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    Re: Freestyle Judo: Yay or Nay?

    Post by Ricebale on Wed May 07, 2014 9:06 am

    It's a heresy and should be burned, who do they think they are, should be burned alongside blue do-gi and people who wear long do-gi sleeves/pants and people who only use single ippon to determine shiai and people who have time limits on matches and people who allow women to wear mens belts and people who shake hands.

    Burn em all.

    beyondgrappling

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    Re: Freestyle Judo: Yay or Nay?

    Post by beyondgrappling on Wed May 07, 2014 11:14 am

    When I talk to other martial artists there is nothing worse than hearing TKD people say "Olympic TKD is so crap and so ineffective where my style of TKD is soooo much better." It just makes the sports/arts sound bad.

    Unfortunately  with Freestyle Judo, Judo is heading that direction which is a shame. Why not call it Kodokan Judo?. At the Kodokan you can grab legs until the cows come home (apologies for the Aussie slang).

    There is nothing worse than hearing a Judoka say "Those Judo guys are the Olympics are all useless because they don't grab legs"

    DougNZ

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    Re: Freestyle Judo: Yay or Nay?

    Post by DougNZ on Wed May 07, 2014 11:18 am

    beyondgrappling wrote:When I talk to other martial artists there is nothing worse than hearing TKD people say "Olympic TKD is so crap and so ineffective where my style of TKD is soooo much better." It just makes the sports/arts sound bad.

    Unfortunately  with Freestyle Judo, Judo is heading that direction which is a shame. Why not call it Kodokan Judo?. At the Kodokan you can grab legs until the cows come home (apologies for the Aussie slang).

    There is nothing worse than hearing a Judoka say "Those Judo guys are the Olympics are all useless because they don't grab legs"

    To be fair, Olympic TKD IS so crap. It is embarrassing to to call it a martial art.

    beyondgrappling

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    Re: Freestyle Judo: Yay or Nay?

    Post by beyondgrappling on Wed May 07, 2014 11:25 am

    DougNZ wrote:
    beyondgrappling wrote:When I talk to other martial artists there is nothing worse than hearing TKD people say "Olympic TKD is so crap and so ineffective where my style of TKD is soooo much better." It just makes the sports/arts sound bad.

    Unfortunately  with Freestyle Judo, Judo is heading that direction which is a shame. Why not call it Kodokan Judo?. At the Kodokan you can grab legs until the cows come home (apologies for the Aussie slang).

    There is nothing worse than hearing a Judoka say "Those Judo guys are the Olympics are all useless because they don't grab legs"

    To be fair, Olympic TKD IS so crap.  It is embarrassing to to call it a martial art.

    true, but it is embarrassing when TKD practitioners negatively critique their own sport
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Freestyle Judo: Yay or Nay?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed May 07, 2014 11:37 am

    beyondgrappling wrote:When I talk to other martial artists there is nothing worse than hearing TKD people say "Olympic TKD is so crap and so ineffective where my style of TKD is soooo much better." It just makes the sports/arts sound bad.

    Unfortunately  with Freestyle Judo, Judo is heading that direction which is a shame. Why not call it Kodokan Judo?. At the Kodokan you can grab legs until the cows come home (apologies for the Aussie slang).

    There is nothing worse than hearing a Judoka say "Those Judo guys are the Olympics are all useless because they don't grab legs"

    And so the plot thickens ...

    Yes, the term jûdô as understood refers exclusively to Kôdôkan jûdô the creation of Kanô Jigorô, not of someone else, even though historically it was preceded by Kitô-ryû jûdô and Jikishin-ryû jûdô. These two were still forms of jûjutsu although their descendants who changed and adopted the name jûdô before Kanô did so intentionally, but it was filled in in a different way than Kanô did, although Kitô-ryû towards the 1900s is already very different from Takenouchi-ryû or Yagyû Shingan-ryû. These changes were complicated and not unequivocally positive and critics argued that they lost their fighting capability and became unrealistic aesthetic performance arts much like how most people approach kata today in jûdô.


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Freestyle Judo: Yay or Nay?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed May 07, 2014 11:40 am

    Ricebale wrote:It's a heresy and should be burned, who do they think they are, should be burned alongside blue do-gi and people who wear long do-gi sleeves/pants and people who only use single ippon to determine shiai and people who have time limits on matches and people who allow women to wear mens belts and people who shake hands.

    Burn em all.

    An alternative to consider that might help battle unemployment and social security deficits. However, burning people is not a manifestation of ji-ta kyô-ei and it also would land you in jail. There is an excellent alternative: getting educated. It's there for everyone to get, and that is what was Kanô's highest goal: "nothing is more important than education", dixit Kanô. That is what drove him and that is the most important message jûdô teaches us. By burning peope you eliminate the chance for them to still get educated.

    To what is described and the merit of that, no one denies it. Most of what they are seeking already exists: it's called BJJ or sambo. If they are not satisfied with what BJJ and sambo offer, fair enough, then they could and should create a new art; however it is not jûdô, just like simply kicking on a piano or a violin does not make it music although it certainly will produce sound.


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    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
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    Ricebale

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    Re: Freestyle Judo: Yay or Nay?

    Post by Ricebale on Wed May 07, 2014 5:18 pm

    http://judoinfo.com/rules.htm

    Original contest rules were better, especially rule 1 where it appears that pants are optional, I like that

    Emanuele2

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    Re: Freestyle Judo: Yay or Nay?

    Post by Emanuele2 on Wed May 07, 2014 5:59 pm

    Is freestyle judo similar to WJF judo?
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    sydvicious

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    Re: Freestyle Judo: Yay or Nay?

    Post by sydvicious on Wed May 07, 2014 7:57 pm

    Just to be clear, I am not saying Judo in it's current form (sport Judo) is bad. I only started doing Judo just as the new rules came into place, so I'm in no position to compare current rules to previous rules. I'm merely pointing out that, in my opinion, one should strive to learn the art as a whole. Just because something is not allowed in competition (leg grabs etc) doesn't mean you should not learn it. It is still part of Judo.
    The person who set up Freestyle Judo is not claiming to have reinvented the wheel, it is just an opportunity for Judoka to compete with less restrictions, ie do "more" Judo.


    radzfman

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    Re: Freestyle Judo: Yay or Nay?

    Post by radzfman on Thu May 08, 2014 12:31 am

    Why not.
    Sensei Lafon, Sensei Scott and the WJF offer an alternative to the IJF as does the FIAS Sambo guys ( who are in cohootz with the IJF).

    If they had more money they could get more international participants and really give the IJF a run for their money.

    The only problem is that Freestyle Judo Alliance doesn't have the cache' of the Olympics which the IJF has.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Freestyle Judo: Yay or Nay?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu May 08, 2014 3:04 am

    radzfman wrote:Why not.
    Sensei Lafon, Sensei Scott and the WJF offer an alternative to the IJF as does the FIAS Sambo guys ( who are in cohootz with the IJF).

    Everyone who has formed some judo federation or is part of some judo federation that is not part of the IJF offers an alternative to the IJF. I don't think that that is the issue. Alternatives to the IJF have existed since the IJF was created and competing federations in several countries were engaging in all kinds of intrigues and making each other's life sour in order to become the IJF member federation to the exclusion of the other. Therefore, at issue is not to offer an alternative, any alternative to the IJF (like dozens of organisation do ... the World Judo Federation, the International Budo Federation, etc.) but the value, quality, rationale and actual relation to the core of Kôdôkan jûdô of that 'alternative'. Personal names of individuals involved are redundant as this thread is not about people, hopefully.


    radzfman wrote:Why not.
    The only problem is that Freestyle Judo Alliance doesn't have the cache' of the Olympics which the IJF has.

    It's not because you write a sentence that starts with the sequence "The only problem is" that that truly is the only problem. I think there is a myriad of problems, some smaller, some bigger like several of the posters already suggested. I doubt that most people in judo start with an IJF member federation because there are some Olympic athletes hopefully country members in it. When I started jûdô I certainly did not walk up to the sensei to ask him if they were part of the same international federation as Anton Geesink of Okano Isao or some other super athlete. I knew nothing about the history of judo federations in my country and would not be interested in that for a long time to go. Moreover, in those days the names of Olympic athlete 'stuck' a lot more because. Today many of the most senior sensei if you would ask them would have never heard of most of the Olympic athlete as they come and go, many names are almost unpronouncable or unfamiliar (cfr. from the many former Soviet countries, the whole cache of Georgia, Kirghiz and other such countries). Before (40 - 50 years ago) there was one or two such athletes in a category. Today they are everywhere. Culture has completely changed. I know of many former Olympic and world elite jûdô athletes who neither watch or attend jûdô anymore because it is so boring and unrelated to what they knew as jûdô. It did not use to be like that. Those who attended top jûdô contests when jûdô was still jûdô, like the memorable Paris 1979 or Maastricht 1981 contests will know that virtually every serious judo champion of the past was there. Everyone today35 years later still knows and remembers the names of those champions: Yamashita, Adams, Kashiwazaki they are milestones. Apart from some youngsters, some active elite competitors, some active elite coaches, and people of the same nation, who still knows the names of half of the 2004 or 2008 Olympians ? Here and there someone who has stuck out the last 15 years, sure, like Inoue, but the rest ? Water under the bridge.

    In other words, I doubt that really the membership of sole current or former Olympian makes much of a difference. People visiting Japan still visit the Kôdôkan, some even pay loads of money to travel to Japan just to go attend an international summer course; no Olympians teach at the course, and the Kôdôkan is not really known for its relationship to Olympians, in fact it has rarely produced a decent competitive jûdôka.

    Instead there are many other factors that play a role, such as the perception that the best teachers and best educated teachers and best informed teachers are part of the IJF system or the Kôdôkan, the perception that they are much better organized, the perception as there may be ulterior motives as to why people are part of different federations or organization, the perception of an overall bad reputation with regard to ranks and other forms of self-promotion in which many non-IJF seem to have engaged to a much higher degree than IJF federations or the Kôdôkan as suggested by the many 8th, 9th, 10th dan-holders, and shihan, sôkê, dai-shihan, hanshi and other ranks and titles claimed by many people in non-IJF federations in a context that is often not in line with their reputation and achievements they may have attained while they still were part of an IJF federation of the Kôdôkan. Before attacking me, note that I did not write that all these impressions are actually factually true; I only wrote about how it is 'perceived' by many, irrespective of whether it is factually true or not. Don't overestimate people; more often than not they do not know how things really are, but that does not prevent them from having an opinion, hence why 'perception' is of critical importance.


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    Mr_Michael_or_Mike

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    Re: Freestyle Judo: Yay or Nay?

    Post by Mr_Michael_or_Mike on Thu May 08, 2014 11:25 am

    Emanuele2 wrote:Is freestyle judo similar to WJF judo?


    I don't think Steve Scott, or Gerald LaFon are members of the WJF. Lafon wrote on his blog that he was afraid that the WJF might become IJF-lite and, asked readers to check out Freestyle Judo. I did see some videos on Steve Scott's youtube page of WJF tournament matches.

    Freestyle Judo might work if they concentrate on holding well run local tournaments that attract the average Judo player and, get people from Sambo, Grappling and, BJJ interested in Judo. I also don't like their downgrading of Osae-komi . The ability to pin has self-defense (against bullies and, toughs, not assassins) application, especially if you don't want to hurt your opponent, just stop their attack. Freestyle seems focused on sport, like the IJF, just an older version with their own modification.

    The no-gi division sounds interesting. Applying Judo principles to that makes for an interesting study. How can I throw a person without a gi?
    Just call it no-gi grappling with a strong Judo influence. It's a worthy topic to study and, that should be the aim of the no-gi tournament. I remember listening to Steve Scott remark how surprised he was to see 1,000 competitors at an Arnold Classic grappling tournament in Ohio. He thought that Judo was losing potential students to BJJ and, grappling. He wanted to get many of those competitors interested in Judo.


    Last edited by Mr_Michael_or_Mike on Fri May 09, 2014 9:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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    sydvicious

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    Re: Freestyle Judo: Yay or Nay?

    Post by sydvicious on Thu May 08, 2014 11:35 pm

    Why was the thread moved to Judo Orgs? It is just competitions that are open to anyone...

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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Freestyle Judo: Yay or Nay?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu May 08, 2014 11:46 pm

    sydvicious wrote:Why was the thread moved to Judo Orgs? It is just competitions that are open to anyone...

    Threads in Judo Orgs are tax-deductible.


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    sydvicious

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    Re: Freestyle Judo: Yay or Nay?

    Post by sydvicious on Thu May 08, 2014 11:50 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    sydvicious wrote:Why was the thread moved to Judo Orgs? It is just competitions that are open to anyone...

    Threads in Judo Orgs are tax-deductible.

     lol! 

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    finarashi

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    Re: Freestyle Judo: Yay or Nay?

    Post by finarashi on Fri May 09, 2014 3:39 am

    sydvicious wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    sydvicious wrote:Why was the thread moved to Judo Orgs? It is just competitions that are open to anyone...

    Threads in Judo Orgs are tax-deductible.

     lol! 
    CK is much funnier than he looks!


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    judochop48

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    Re: Freestyle Judo: Yay or Nay?

    Post by judochop48 on Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:28 am

    A lot of misinformation here about freestyle rules judo,which is the baby of Sensei Scott and Sensei John Saylor,who is also the founder of shingitai jujitsu.In Freestyle rules,Ippon is awarded for a hard throw directly to the back with control,lesser scores are reworded with numerical values to make it easier to keep score and help spectators understand.Osaekomi is rewarded with up to four points for a 20 second hold,then the top man is instructed to go for a submission(armlock or choke).Newaza scores are also given for passing the guard,breaking an opponent down into a controlled and dominant position and for sweeping from the guard,which allows Newaza specialists to derive extra points for their efforts.Rules concerning gripping and leg attacks are old school,allowing for a greater range of tach kwanza technique,and equal time is given to tachi waza as well as Newaza.The referees dress like referees instead of insurance salesmen,wearing a tricolor polo with the competition belts facing the side of the shirt with their respective color.They are also allowed to warn competitors without issuing a penalty initially,and other than facilitating safety and enforcing the rules,let the fighters decide the outcome of the match,with little stoppage or interference.Judo is judo,it is just a more user friendly rule set that appeals to a greater number of grapplers,and has introduced wrestlers,bjj guys,samboists and submission grapplers to the great art of judo.Freestyle Judo is a great innovation,and is growing in popularity,and is sponsored by the aau along with their traditional rules judo program.Don't knock it before you try it!

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