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    What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ?

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    Cichorei Kano

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    What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:24 pm

    What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ? (research study)

    Recently at the EJU Symposium in Montpellier one study presented some interesting findings. The researchers had obtained responses from 10 different groups of people involved in judo. There were judo teachers among them, PE teachers who practised judo, 1st year sports students-judoka, 1st year human sciences students-judoka, children judoka, regional level competitive judoka, and elite judoka. Responses were received from a total of 963 respondents.

    Options ranged from the most important thing in judo for them being:

    - winning medals
    - winning combats,
    - being fit
    - obtaining belts,
    -learning self-defense

    and also the whole shebang of respect-related stuff.



    The responses were interesting. Most judoka said that winning medals came last for them ... except the judo elite who put winning medals first ... obviously, I guess. Winning combats for them was an obvious second choice.

    Intriguing thought that regional level competitive judo found winning combats the second most important thing but winning medals only the 5th important thing. Perhaps they have little choice and it is inherent to the fact that they are 'only' regional competitors and not the elite. In other words ... they can't win the medals because the elite will.

    No person put obtaining belts very high in their choices, but then again ... we all know nobody in judo cares anything about belts and dan-ranks, now don't we ?

    I wondered why about all the kids chose learning to defend themselves as the most important. Do they feel a need to be able to defend themselves ?  I mean do they feel scared in an angry world, bullied or worse ?  It's an interesting result that deserves further discussion.

    Learning to respect each other is the first motivator in judoka who are also 1st year human sciences majors, yet learning to respect each other is about the least important thing in the national elite judoka and the same in the regional competitive level judoka. Need we say more ?  It's not us disgruntled dinosaurs complaining, the judoka themselves made perfectly clear what they seek in judo, and the results are very much line with the concerns previously expect.

    The only problem, admittedly, is that this is a recording in time. We cannot speculate about the evolution of those ideals. After all, it is likely that the national elite judoka in 30 years no longer will put winning medals as their first choice since they will then be the dinosaurs we are. But then again if they provide a response at that time they are no longer part of the nationale elite and their responses likely would be recorded in a different category. So in the end it is possible that obsession with competitive results at young age still leads emphasizing judo values at later age. That is something the study unfortunately can't answer.

    Interesting work though. I wanted to give credit to the authors, but unfortunately I did not record their names in my notes and I can't remember who they were. An abstract of their work is due to appear later these year in the symposium proceedings to be published by the Archives of Budo." />


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    DougNZ

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    Re: What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ?

    Post by DougNZ on Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:47 pm

    That's an interesting response by the children. I would like to know what ages the sample included. For example, I would suggest that the motivations of 8 year olds would be different to the motivations of 14 year olds. Certainly, self-image is a source of anxiety for many pre-teens and early teens, which perhaps explains the importance of the self defence aspect of judo to them.

    Self defence does not feature very highly at all in my kids' class and maybe it should (or at least, I should ask the kids). Our intermediate class (11-15 y.o.) includes self defence and is very popular.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:15 pm

    DougNZ wrote:That's an interesting response by the children.  I would like to know what ages the sample included.  

    The information is provided on the pic, Doug: 11 yrs +/- SD.


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    Kurobi

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    Re: What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ?

    Post by Kurobi on Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:06 pm

    It's a shame nothing was mentioned about learning and applying the concept of mutual welfare and benefit.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:56 am

    Kurobi wrote:It's a shame nothing was mentioned about learning and applying the concept of mutual welfare and benefit.

    I suppose that this is considered under the criteria "learning to respect the other" and "learning throws, to improve oneself"; the second criterion is somewhat confusing here as it seems to mix physiological-mechanical goals with mental goals, but I am not sure as I am neither the author, nor do I have access to the full study to verify that.


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    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    tafftaz

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    Re: What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ?

    Post by tafftaz on Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:12 am

    I would imagine that all of them have been the number one goal at some point in every judokas career if they have been training for a long time.
    My priorities have changed drastically as I have grown older on the tatami.
    As a kid all I wanted was my next belt.
    As a late teen self defence was up there.
    As a young man combat and medals frequently vied for top spot.
    Never really worried about the keeping fit part as it was a natural part of training.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:44 am

    tafftaz wrote:I would imagine that all of them have been the number one goal at some point in every judokas career if they have been training for a long time.
    My priorities have changed drastically as I have grown older on the tatami.
    As a kid all I wanted was my next belt.
    As a late teen self defence was up there.
    As a young man combat and medals frequently vied for top spot.
    Never really worried about the keeping fit part as it was a natural part of training.

    That is a good point, but one that can only be addressed by those people that have reached the age that they have gone through the different stages. The kids that are 11 years old are probably in their first stage and therefore can only address the first stage. With their limited maturity they cannot reliably anticipate in time how their goals are going to change. As with many research projects, longitudinal research would give the best results, but is practically very difficult to achieve as one would have to follow people for decades.

    I don't know if you recall but in the 1980s the BBC started a series about Japan in which they would follow Japanese kids each 7 years. I think I videotaped and watched the first two episodes. I hope that the project is still going on but I don't recall the title.


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    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    tafftaz

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    Re: What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ?

    Post by tafftaz on Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:47 am

    I agree totally CK.
    I remember the programme but I also cannot recall the title.
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    Kenan79

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    Re: What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ?

    Post by Kenan79 on Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:18 am

    To answer the OP question: Achieving a perfect throw.
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    NBK

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    Re: What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ?

    Post by NBK on Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:07 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ? (research study)

    Recently at the EJU Symposium in Montpellier one study presented some interesting findings. ....
    I wondered why about all the kids chose learning to defend themselves as the most important. Do they feel a need to be able to defend themselves ?  I mean do they feel scared in an angry world, bullied or worse ?  It's an interesting result that deserves further discussion.

    .....
    Interesting work though. I wanted to give credit to the authors, but unfortunately I did not record their names in my notes and I can't remember who they were. An abstract of their work is due to appear later these year in the symposium proceedings to be published by the Archives of Budo." />
    I never understand why judo organizations don't recognize the near universal interest in self-defense and service that.  I think it would be one of the most powerful draws to newcomers.

    Kano shihan himself placed very high importance on the self-defense aspects of judo - it was the first aspect of judo that he addressed in a special judo instructor course in the early 1900's.  I write on it here:
    Kano shihan's judo instructor course

    As far as credit, perhaps if you remember when they post the actual paper, you could link here.

    Lance Gatling
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:47 pm

    NBK wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ? (research study)

    Recently at the EJU Symposium in Montpellier one study presented some interesting findings. ....
    I wondered why about all the kids chose learning to defend themselves as the most important. Do they feel a need to be able to defend themselves ?  I mean do they feel scared in an angry world, bullied or worse ?  It's an interesting result that deserves further discussion.

    .....
    Interesting work though. I wanted to give credit to the authors, but unfortunately I did not record their names in my notes and I can't remember who they were. An abstract of their work is due to appear later these year in the symposium proceedings to be published by the Archives of Budo." />
    I never understand why judo organizations don't recognize the near universal interest in self-defense and service that.  I think it would be one of the most powerful draws to newcomers.

    Kano shihan himself placed very high importance on the self-defense aspects of judo - it was the first aspect of judo that he addressed in a special judo instructor course in the early 1900's.  I write on it here:
    Kano shihan's judo instructor course

    As far as credit, perhaps if you remember when they post the actual paper, you could link here.

    Lance Gatling
    Tokyo

    Learning self-defense was included as an option in the table though (option #6)

    Proceedings from the EJU symposium are usually published in August, but they are taking a new route this year rather than the EJU themselves publishing them, having them published as a special issue by an existing scholarly journal. My plan was indeed to provide the link to the proceedings as soon as they become available (and I am made aware of it).


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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    Gus

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    Re: What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ?

    Post by Gus on Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:06 am

    For me the best way to describe what I want from Judo is to describe what I have already got and which I seek to continue developing in the future;

    1. Pschological equilibrium, flexibility and spiritual fortitude . To be not arrogant with victory nor broken with defeat. For example - If you fall down; get up and try again immediately dont lie on the floor moping over failure. Persistent effort even in bad times leads eventually to success. My career has benefited enormously from this and I learnt it from Judo. As these lessons are learnt physically and painfully in Judo they tend to be more effective than mere intellectual philosophy.

    2. Being a useful member of society.

    3. Physical fitness, dexterity and perfection of favourite techniques.

    4. Increased confidence and a slightly increased degree of self defence without the macho need to test it out in a bar or posts fights involving yourself online. As most genuine assaults involve knives and guns using any martial art to defend yourself is a bit of a fantasy and a last resort in situations you are statistically unlikely to face. Still best to have a last resort than nothing at all.

    5. Defeating negative thoughts, defeating the self, the ego.

    6. Self respect and respect for others , considering both your own interests and that of others, this also has lead me to great benefits.

    Don't get me wrong I love competition as well and have even bagged a few gold medals at local and regional levels , I also love really hard training sessions - but all these things are to me tools for more useful applications.
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    Ricebale

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    Re: What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ?

    Post by Ricebale on Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:28 am

    The social aspect, merely being able to participate in a physical group activity which is not a team ball sport is really important to combat the loneliness of modern adult life and has always been important to me. Not mentioned on the list really.

    beyondgrappling

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    Re: What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ?

    Post by beyondgrappling on Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:48 am

    judo is fun,
    its a great chess match and it is physical, what's not to love.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:34 pm

    beyondgrappling wrote:judo is fun,
    its a great chess match and it is physical, what's not to love.

    Judo politics.


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    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    DougNZ

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    Re: What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ?

    Post by DougNZ on Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:07 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    beyondgrappling wrote:judo is fun,
    its a great chess match and it is physical, what's not to love.

    Judo politics.

    You mean 'organisational randori', CK?
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    Ryvai

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    Re: What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ?

    Post by Ryvai on Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:01 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    beyondgrappling wrote:judo is fun,
    its a great chess match and it is physical, what's not to love.

    Judo politics.

    AKA kuchi-guruma, speaking in circles Razz
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:02 pm

    DougNZ wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    beyondgrappling wrote:judo is fun,
    its a great chess match and it is physical, what's not to love.

    Judo politics.

    You mean 'organisational randori', CK?

    Not really. Randori still has rules of fair play. Perhaps "organisational kawazu-gake" is a better term, as it makes ample use of improper manipulations usually with the intent to cause maximal and lasting damage to someone else.


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    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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    finarashi

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    Re: What are for different people the most important things they seek in judo ?

    Post by finarashi on Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:53 am

    Gus wrote:For me the best way to describe what I want from Judo is to describe what I have already got and which I seek to continue developing in the future;

    1. Pschological equilibrium, flexibility and spiritual fortitude . To be not arrogant with victory nor broken with defeat. For example - If you fall down; get up and try again immediately dont lie on the floor moping over failure. Persistent effort even in bad times leads eventually to success. My career has benefited enormously from this and I learnt it from Judo. As these lessons are learnt physically and painfully in Judo they tend to be more effective than mere intellectual philosophy.

    2. Being a useful member of society.

    3. Physical fitness, dexterity and perfection of favourite techniques.

    4. Increased confidence and a slightly increased degree of self defence without the macho need to test it out in a bar or posts fights involving yourself online. As most genuine assaults involve knives and guns using any martial art to defend yourself is a bit of a fantasy and a last resort in situations you are statistically unlikely to face. Still best to have a last resort than nothing at all.

    5. Defeating negative thoughts, defeating the self, the ego.

    6. Self respect and respect for others , considering both your own interests and that of others, this also has lead me to great benefits.

    Don't get me wrong I love competition as well and have even bagged a few gold medals at local and regional levels , I also love really hard training sessions - but all these things are to me tools for more useful applications.
    For me;


    2. Being a useful member of society.

    3. Physical fitness, dexterity and perfection of favourite techniques.

    4. Increased confidence and a slightly increased degree of self defence without the macho need to test it out in a bar or posts fights involving yourself online. As most genuine assaults involve knives and guns using any martial art to defend yourself is a bit of a fantasy and a last resort in situations you are statistically unlikely to face. Still best to have a last resort than nothing at all.


    6. Self respect and respect for others , considering both your own interests and that of others, this also has lead me to great benefits.


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