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    What would you call this technique?

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    Ryvai

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    What would you call this technique?

    Post by Ryvai on Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:38 pm

    There has been some discussions on Reddit regarding the name of a particular technique and need some help looking at some proper classification. I've seen many different suggestions, amongst; seoi-nage, sode-tsurikomi-goshi, uchi-makikomi, koshi-guruma(!) and even kata-guruma, you name it.

    Personally this looks like a variation of seoi-nage to me, as he is carrying uke on his back. I also cant see this particular performance being sode-tsurikomi-goshi, as he is jumping through the air, and not throwing around the hip? It is certainly a beautiful throw, but it looks a bit chaotic to classify and I need your help Smile

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    Davaro

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    Re: What would you call this technique?

    Post by Davaro on Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:09 pm

    My guess (which is the best I can give) is Sode-tsurikomi. This is based on his initial grip. Uki over-rotated and he just helped the throw by grabbing the leg to help him over.

    Nice looking throw which sadly would result in HSM today (I think)


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    Ryvai

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    Re: What would you call this technique?

    Post by Ryvai on Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:51 pm

    Davaro wrote:My guess (which is the best I can give) is Sode-tsurikomi. This is based on his initial grip. Uki over-rotated and he just helped the throw by grabbing the leg to help him over.

    I just cant get sode-tsurikomi-goshi to fit, as uke is not thrown around the hip, tori is flying through the air. But yes, you might be right Smile Seoi-nage still fits in my book :p as uke is carried on his back?

    Davaro wrote:Nice looking throw which sadly would result in HSM today (I think)

    Yes, I believe he would get hansoku-make for two reasons. Grabbing below the belt and for diving towards his head/neck Smile

    Jonesy

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    Re: What would you call this technique?

    Post by Jonesy on Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:57 pm

    Does it matter? Lots of techniques you see in competitions have no "classical judo" name. They have been worked out by athletes and coaches to get an opponent on his back and with speed and have no real root in Kodokan judo which was synthesised by Kano for a different purpose.


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    justcurious

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    Re: What would you call this technique?

    Post by justcurious on Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:07 pm

    Jonesy wrote:Does it matter?  Lots of techniques you see in competitions have no "classical judo" name. They have been worked out by athletes and coaches to get an opponent on his back and with speed and have no real root in Kodokan judo which was synthesised by Kano for a different purpose.
    Absolutely agree!

    Ryvai

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    Re: What would you call this technique?

    Post by Ryvai on Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:11 pm

    Jonesy wrote:Does it matter?  Lots of techniques you see in competitions have no "classical judo" name. They have been worked out by athletes and coaches to get an opponent on his back and with speed and have no real root in Kodokan judo which was synthesised by Kano for a different purpose.

    "What do you call this technique?" You could say: ippon! ^_^

    I think discussions regarding classification is important, as patterns might imerge from these discussions, which might eventually lead to more "newly accepted techniques" by the Kodokan, as they do not fit into the traditional principles, however most techniques do :p

    The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. -Albert Einstein

    Jonesy

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    Re: What would you call this technique?

    Post by Jonesy on Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:30 pm

    I doubt whether the Kodokan will ever accept "contest fads" as core judo techniques - nor should it. There is "IJF Jacketed Wrestling" as seen in this clip, then there in Kodokan Judo. The two are now but distantly related cousins.


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    Ricebale

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    Re: What would you call this technique?

    Post by Ricebale on Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:13 pm

    It's a Seoi nage (arm throw) with an arm assist, common in old sambo vids, it's confusing because of the reverse entry. If I can track down the Russian name I'll post it.

    Ryvai

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    Re: What would you call this technique?

    Post by Ryvai on Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:21 pm

    Ricebale wrote:It's a Seoi nage (arm throw) with an arm assist, common in old sambo vids, it's confusing because of the reverse entry. If I can track down the Russian name I'll post it.

    Thanks! Smile

    tafftaz

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    Re: What would you call this technique?

    Post by tafftaz on Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:29 pm

    Ricebale wrote:It's a Seoi nage (arm throw) with an arm assist, common in old sambo vids, it's confusing because of the reverse entry. If I can track down the Russian name I'll post it.

    Sorry rb. Got to disagree. Much more like a Sode tsuri komi goshi with assist than a seoi nage.

    Ricebale

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    Re: What would you call this technique?

    Post by Ricebale on Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:37 pm

    tafftaz wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:It's a Seoi nage (arm throw) with an arm assist, common in old sambo vids, it's confusing because of the reverse entry. If I can track down the Russian name I'll post it.

    Sorry rb. Got to disagree. Much more like a Sode tsuri komi goshi with assist than a seoi nage.

    I readily concede on the Judo name and I can see the sleeve element, the Sambo classification would likely be "outside arm throw" or "reverse spina" as it's known I think with "a sleeve grip" perhaps, even the standard arm throw i.e. seoi nage is done with this hand assist, it is a standard way to teach these throws with the hand assist.

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: What would you call this technique?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:12 am

    Ryvai wrote:There has been some discussions on Reddit regarding the name of a particular technique and need some help looking at some proper classification. I've seen many different suggestions, amongst; seoi-nage, sode-tsurikomi-goshi, uchi-makikomi, koshi-guruma(!) and even kata-guruma, you name it.

    Personally this looks like a variation of seoi-nage to me, as he is carrying uke on his back. I also cant see this particular performance being sode-tsurikomi-goshi, as he is jumping through the air, and not throwing around the hip? It is certainly a beautiful throw, but it looks a bit chaotic to classify and I need your help Smile

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    In jûdô competition, especially modern day jûdô competition, many techniques occur that can be considered "chaotic throwing techniques". That means that a number of techniques and actions are assembled ot maximize chances to get someone on the ground on his back, without the whole of actions being a standard or often times and even repeatable technique.

    The action shown in the clip does not classify under either gokyô terminology or under official habukareta-waza or shinmeisho-no-waza, but it is a historically described technique. It is called ushiro-guruma, performed as makikomi.

    The technique is described here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ushiro_Guruma

    and the technique is shown here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_NdrePNPGs

    Although the technique was historically usually performed resembling uchi-mata where the opponent is thrown around the back towards the other side, the leg did not actually have to grab or make contact and was mostly used as a lever or counterweight. It is done that way in the clip too. There are many other techniques outside of the current 67 named Kôdôkan techniques that were once named or existed in Kôdôkan. Even in nage-no-kata there used to be several techniques that no longer exist under that name today.


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    Jonesy

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    Re: What would you call this technique?

    Post by Jonesy on Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:42 am

    Thank you CK-sensei.  Great post.

    I might be cynical, but I wonder if the thrower or his coach has ever heard of Mifune, watched his video, or even heard of ushiro guruma? Neil Adams - whose voice we hear certainly called it a "sode".......


    Last edited by Jonesy on Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:34 am; edited 1 time in total

    Ryvai

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    Re: What would you call this technique?

    Post by Ryvai on Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:24 am

    This was exactly the information I was looking for. Knowledgable as always, thanks CK!

    GregW

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    Re: What would you call this technique?

    Post by GregW on Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:55 am

    I've seen kata guruma be done like that where tori reaches around the outside of the leg, not the inside. I guess that would be CK's ushiro guruma.

    Here's one of the variations by Mifune at the 3:25 timestamp.  


    Last edited by GregW on Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:05 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add time index)

    Davaro

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    Re: What would you call this technique?

    Post by Davaro on Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:16 am

    Jonesy wrote:Thank you CK-sensei.  Great post.

    I might be cynical, but I wonder if the thrower or his coach has ever heard of Mifune, watched his video, or even heard of ushiro guruma?  Neil Adams  - whose voice we hear certainly called it a "sode".......

    Guess that "does it matter?" post is suddenly irrelevant eh?


    Last edited by Davaro on Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:18 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : wording...)


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    Ricebale

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    Re: What would you call this technique?

    Post by Ricebale on Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:26 am

    Ricebale wrote:
    tafftaz wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:It's a Seoi nage (arm throw) with an arm assist, common in old sambo vids, it's confusing because of the reverse entry. If I can track down the Russian name I'll post it.

    Sorry rb. Got to disagree. Much more like a Sode tsuri komi goshi with assist than a seoi nage.

    I readily concede on the Judo name and I can see the sleeve element, the Sambo classification would likely be "outside arm throw" or "reverse spina" as it's known I think with "a sleeve grip" perhaps, even the standard arm throw i.e. seoi nage is done with this hand assist, it is a standard way to teach these throws with the hand assist.

    checked my old Sambo manual "Chumakov 100 lessons", it's classified as an arm throw but the description fits a "reverse mill" which is a reverse firemans carry, CK got it.

    tafftaz

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    Re: What would you call this technique?

    Post by tafftaz on Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:39 am

    Hi rb. Never doubted your knowledge of the sambo variation. I have a few clips of this being done in kurtka somewhere in my library will have to dig them out for you. They are very good.
    I used to do this waza a lot when I was younger. Contrary to popular belief this is not a "new" technique. I can only comment on the way that I used to perform this technique and it always started as a sode tsuri komi goshi. When I felt that the throw was failing I would then rotate through more and grab the leg and roll. Thereby turning it into a kata guruma variation.
    Jonesy knows one of my training partners very well (ex british squad) and he is still very good at this particular technique.
    Hope all is well with you.

    Ryvai

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    Re: What would you call this technique?

    Post by Ryvai on Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:53 am

    Jonesy wrote:Thank you CK-sensei.  Great post.

    I might be cynical, but I wonder if the thrower or his coach has ever heard of Mifune, watched his video, or even heard of ushiro guruma?  Neil Adams  - whose voice we hear certainly called it a "sode".......

    He probably have never heard about ushiro-guruma, that does not mean that it does not exist. It is just coincidence Smile

    Neil Adams is famous for calling almost any ashi-waza for ashi-guruma, you could probably make a drinking game out of it, hehe Very Happy But it does start of similar to sode-tsurikomi-goshi, I would probably say the same thing if I where to call out the throw immediatly on live stream, he has to think fast.

    Ricebale

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    Re: What would you call this technique?

    Post by Ricebale on Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:33 am

    tafftaz wrote:Hi rb. Never doubted your knowledge of the sambo variation. I have a few clips of this being done in kurtka somewhere in my library will have to dig them out for you. They are very good.
    I used to do this waza a lot when I was younger. Contrary to popular belief this is not a "new" technique. I can only comment on the way that I used to perform this technique and it always started as a sode tsuri komi goshi. When I felt that the throw was failing I would then rotate through more and grab the leg and roll. Thereby turning it into a kata guruma variation.
    Jonesy knows one of my training partners very well (ex british squad) and he is still very good at this particular technique.
    Hope all is well with you.

    it is a beautiful throw. I was coaching the standard arm throw (right arm ippon seoi) and showing how the left arm can swing into the mill position to complete the throw with less energy to produce a greater lift thereby making the throw more of a mill (kata garuma) I struggle with the reverse entry as my pivot lacks grace, I admire it when I see it for that reason most likely!

    as an aside I saw this throw used at last years worlds for Sambo, I think the odd grip placements help these types of throws, it's a shame Judo is losing them.

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