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    Ushiro-kaiten-ukemi

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    Ryvai

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    Ushiro-kaiten-ukemi

    Post by Ryvai on Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:14 pm

    Some discussion arose when discussing how to perform ukemi when falling backwards.


    • We have the standard ushiro-ukemi, falling backwards, breaking the fall with your hands and staying down, everyone knows that one.
    • Also the normal Ushiro-kaiten-ukemi/Ushiro-mawari-ukemi (backwards rolling ukemi), where we roll backwards over the shoulders to either side to get to our feet or in kyoshi.
    • Then there is the straight backwards type that has created some discussion (linked below). In the wrestling community which I came from before learning Judo this was normal, and was trained alongside the standard 'rolling-over-the-shoulder' type of ukemi. I have done backwards roll straight over the neck like this for 10 years (especially when lifting up to jump up to your feet), and have never had injuries from it. Is it really that bad?


    Some questions;

    1. Is this type of ukemi really that bad?
    2. Does the japanese have a special name for this type of ukemi?
    3. Is this type of rolling, if ever, practiced in japan or a bad western interpretation?
    4. When your students are doing the movement where you are rolling backwards, lifting themselfs up to their hands, to jump to your feet. Are they 'unconciously' lifting as if they are rolling over the shoulder, so that the push is not symmetrical? is this optimal for this exercise?



    Ricebale

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    Re: Ushiro-kaiten-ukemi

    Post by Ricebale on Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:45 pm



    Very common to do this as a warm up, I've done it in Wrestling and Sambo. Only thing I'd add is that he is not doing right, you are supposed to come into a handstand and it's not exactly an ukemi but a gymnastics roll.

    I trained with some Korean Judo dudes who did this easily so may be part of their training but when I tried to get some Australian Judo guys to do these types of warm ups at a seminar they failed miserably.

    Edit:

    I found this Judo example from the Mongolian Olympic training at about 0:25 you can see them doing it, build the neck and bridge motions.


    JudoStu

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    Re: Ushiro-kaiten-ukemi

    Post by JudoStu on Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:02 am

    I really need to work on my ukemi


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Ushiro-kaiten-ukemi

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:23 am

    Ryvai wrote:Some discussion arose when discussing how to perform ukemi when falling backwards.


    • We have the standard ushiro-ukemi, falling backwards, breaking the fall with your hands and staying down, everyone knows that one.
    • Also the normal Ushiro-kaiten-ukemi/Ushiro-mawari-ukemi (backwards rolling ukemi), where we roll backwards over the shoulders to either side to get to our feet or in kyoshi.
    • Then there is the straight backwards type that has created some discussion (linked below). In the wrestling community which I came from before learning Judo this was normal, and was trained alongside the standard 'rolling-over-the-shoulder' type of ukemi. I have done backwards roll straight over the neck like this for 10 years (especially when lifting up to jump up to your feet), and have never had injuries from it. Is it really that bad?


    Some questions;

    1. Is this type of ukemi really that bad?
    2. Does the japanese have a special name for this type of ukemi?
    3. Is this type of rolling, if ever, practiced in japan or a bad western interpretation?
    4. When your students are doing the movement where you are rolling backwards, lifting themselfs up to their hands, to jump to your feet. Are they 'unconciously' lifting as if they are rolling over the shoulder, so that the push is not symmetrical? is this optimal for this exercise?



    The answer to your question requires a correction of the point from which you start. There are four and only four basic types of ukemi in Kôdôkan jûdô:

    1. ushiro-ukemi (there is no rolling in there), also called , which simply is the on-pronunciation of the kanji 後 kô followed by the kanji 方 hô (= direction) and the kanji for ukemi, whereas ushiro is the kun pronounciation of the kanji 後 without the kanji 方
    2. yoko-ukemi, also called ôho-ukemi, which is the on-reading of the kanji 横 ô followed by the kanji 方 hô (= direction) and the kanji for ukemi, whereas yokois the kun pronounciation of the kanji 横 without the kanji 方.
    3. zenpô-kaiten, written 前方回転 and being the on pronunciation also called, mae-mawari ukemi which is the kun reading of the kanji 前回 without the kanji 方 and the kanji 転 (and followed by the kanji for ukemi)
    4. mae-ukemi.

    In addition, there are two more types of ukemi in Kôdôkan jûdô which are not basic and are not taught as general ukemi. That is because they only feature in the most advanced kata, and at that level are relatively easy modifications of ukemi that appear in the 4 above ukemi. Those two forms are:

    5. Jizô-daore 地蔵倒, which is the equivalent of mae-ukemi, but backwards.
    6. Ôten 横転, which is a barrel roll, and where the ô is he on-reading of the kanji 横 ô, and of which the kun reading would be yoko. Whether ôten truly exists as a specific ukemi in Kôdôkan jûdô is open to debate. Daigo claims it does, but he has so far failed to provide any proof of this. Historic analysis suggests that this ukemi does not exist, but that due to advanced kata being taught by +80 year sensei who no longer had full physical abilities or younger teachers who do not properly master the advanced technical movements and often times perform a movement that lacks proper kuzushi with the other one faking the fall, we often saw what basically is a botched zenpô-kaiten. The absurdity is that over the years in an apparent attempt to show respect to those aged teachers of the past, their botched ukemi increasingly started becoming regarded as a specific type of ukemi one needed to pursue ... I have in my possession older historic and authoritative film recordings which the Kôdôkan does not possess and that show beyond any doubt that historically this ôten-movement did not occur where they now claim it does. However, this is a whole other discussion and beyond the purpose of this thread.

    No other types of ukemi officially exist in Kôdôkan jûdô. That does not mean at all that there are no other types of breakfalling in other budô which for whatever reason someone can practice or introduce, but ... they are not Kôdôkan jûdô. There is no ukemi in Kôdôkan jûdô in which one rolls backward over the neck. However, as the other poster indicated, you can choose to introduce this or whatever exercise in your junbi-undô (warm-up) if you desire to do so.

    There exist lots of other types of ukemi, including some very uncomfortable and dangerous ones, such as jumping ukemi ending with the person ending in bridge, or even simple forward rolling with ending in kamae which is very common in other martial arts; even in aikdiô forward rolling often ends in another position. However, once again ... this is not Kôdôkan jûdô. By the way, there also exists yoko-kaiten-ukemi, but ... it is not Kôdôkan jûdô either.

    When you ask if this is bad, your question has to sides:

    1. It is bad when what you are trying to do is a Kôdôkan jûdô ukemi if you fail to do the Kôdôkan jûdô ukemi, but it is not bad if that type of ukemi from another budô you are doing at another budô. I would imagine that that is obvious. Is a bad to touch a ball with your hand ?  Yes, if it is soccer you are playing, but obviously not if it is handball or volleyball or basketball you are playing.

    2. Is it bad from a health point of view ?

    Well, as you know people claim and speculate about many things, and official views are often nothing but propaganda. One of the threefold aims of Kanô with Kôdôkan jûdô is physical development and thus improving your health. So, jûdô would be very health, no ?  A simple observation of, let's say 60-year old jûdôka who have had a competitive career will quickly learn that there is a remarkable number who have had serious knee injuries or back injuries. Just here on this forum, as Dr. AnnMaria or Dustymars if jûdô is healthy for the knees ...

    But I am digressing. With regard to the exercises you describe, to the best of my knowledge there exist no scientific papers that have looked in those non-Kôdôkan ukemi or anyone that has made use of objective and quantifiable means of analysis to answer that question. Hence the sort of answers you will probably get are going to be merely anecdotal and speculative.


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    JudoSensei

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    Re: Ushiro-kaiten-ukemi

    Post by JudoSensei on Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:26 am

    Here’s my contribution to our anecdotal and speculative discussion of the rear fall described in the initial post. (Thanks CK for an excellent post, loved it.) I am not an expert but will be happy to speculate, and I’ll make it long-winded just to show I can do it.

    I learned this back fall in wrestling and gymnastics long before I ever saw it in judo. Judo classes historically did not practice this fall, primarily for the reasons CK discussed. This back rolling fall is not a part of Kodokan Judo. When I learned judo in the 60’s and 70’s I never saw this fall, but I did teach it later. Let me explain why.

    Kodokan Judo spread around the world partly because there was a standard teaching of techniques and principles, as there is now. This standard evolved, but very slowly. It still evolves slowly because the Kodokan controls what most people think of as the basic syllabus of judo. The rate of change in judo has been accelerating however. The introduction of new techniques is inevitable and has been affecting judo for some time now. These techniques don’t come from the Kodokan, but have become a part of judo practice in many places.

    From the beginning we have trained judo students in a hands on manner, face to face in randori and shiai, thousands of hours of uchi komi. Students were tested for promotion based on their ability to perform specific techniques in the standard manner. Some amount of variation was always permitted, students were encouraged to fit the technique to their body and personality, but the standard was transmitted to every student. We were corrected for any variation from the ideal.

    In the 50’s the popularity of judo began to skyrocket and Kodokan trained students became instructors around the world. For example, U.S. soldiers exposed to judo while serving in Japan began coming home and starting classes. More judo books began to be published. Japanese immigrants began teaching lots more people outside their immigrant communities.

    During this period as judo expanded and spread most students were learning from first generation Kodokan-trained instructors, or at least instructors with solid skills in the basic Kodokan techniques, including ukemi. The Kodokan Judo is what we wanted to learn, and many of us who learned during that period were honored and excited to join the Kodokan and be awarded with the Kodokan shodan certificate.

    When my generation began teaching we were a little more open to new ideas, and we began to explore new ways of doing Kodokan techniques. We discovered sports science which informed us on injurious practices and helped identify optimum technique, coach education which elevated our level of knowledge and exposed us to new approaches, unorthodox theories especially as we moved into the internet age, influence from wrestling and later BJJ, and a major emphasis on international competition.

    Rules for competition became much more structured (and some would say political although the Kodokan has its own politics) as the IJF replaced the Kodokan with responsibility for international competition rules. With the first World Championships in 1956 the Kodokan lost control of its ability to define what judo is. Along with the rise of the IJF, every country created an affiliated organization that enforces the rules, promotes competition, and holds national competitive events. Which the inclusion of judo in the Olympics in 1964, judo as sport moved further along the significant transformation from the older methods previously taught.

    Instructors began training for competition in new ways. Strategies for optimizing winning by utilizing the rules became common. For example, if someone could earn a koka and stall the rest of the match they could win a championship so we learned the most effective strategies to get a koka and how to stall. Rule changes have since eliminated these particular perversions of judo training, but there are plenty more examples of competitive training based on IJF rules that are not in conformance with what judo is all about. This includes IJF refereeing rules that have messed with the definition of ippon, and eliminated all throws where your hands touch below the belt.

    The environment for judo instructors changed as competition became more important in the judo community in general. We also reflected the society we lived in and student expectations changed. We wanted to make classes fun and attractive to new students who would not tolerate the difficult repetitive training that is judo. Even though we were more classically trained in Kodokan Judo, we adopted new techniques and teaching methods, as each succeeding generation of instructor has done. At the same time, the international influence of the Kodokan diminished. Although the techniques of Kodokan Judo are still standardized and most judoka know the Kodokan standard, new and different techniques are increasingly seen and accepted in dojo around the world.

    Many instructors began utilizing their wrestling or gymnastics experience that was a common part of our education in the 50’s and 60’s and incorporating techniques like this rear fall we are still discussing. I introduced it to the standard ukemi practice in my classes to add variety and encourage flexibility in falling. It was a very occasional alternative to the standard falls, but now I see it in some judo classes as a regular part of ukemi practice, as shown in the first video in this topic.

    With each successive year we seem to change our collective judo training practices more and more away from the Kodokan techniques described by CK. Some changes certainly are advances since we know a lot more about the health effects of rigorous physical training. In regards to this back roll, I think it is clear that it came from outside of judo, but has been gradually taught more and more in judo classes until now when it is quite common, although not at all universal.

    As far as the safety of this back roll, I am not too concerned. The studies I am only vaguely familiar with about risk involved in rolling backwards, seems to apply to the average student. So if I teach this roll after a solid foundation of ukemi practice I am able to identify who is ready to attempt it and decrease the likelihood of injury by preparing them with the required skill and strength. Gymnasts, wrestlers, judo competitors and lots of other athletes around the world can do this roll easily, but that does not mean it’s safe for every overweight eight year old or middle-aged dad taking judo for the first time.

    I don’t see this back roll as a staple of judo practice, in fact it is not judo at all. But it can have some value in building strength, coordination, and reinforcing the rolling motion. I think it has positive exercise value that outweighs the associated risk. So I have no objection to the introduction of this technique to a class for the sake of adding exercise, interest, new skills, or fun, but I don’t see any reason to do it otherwise.

    noboru

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    Re: Ushiro-kaiten-ukemi

    Post by noboru on Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:54 pm

    Here is japanese poster with ukemi teaching.

    http://gakkokyoiku.gakken.co.jp/objects/textbooks/2020004-t5.png



    Source: http://gakkokyoiku.gakken.co.jp/j_school/hokentaiiku/2020004.html

    Udon

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    Re: Ushiro-kaiten-ukemi

    Post by Udon on Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:21 am

    A picture is worth a thousand words. Thank you Noboru.

    Y-Chromosome

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    Re: Ushiro-kaiten-ukemi

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:15 am

    I'm intrigued by this discussion on a number of levels.

    On the simple technical level, I think I am on the same page as JudoSensei.

    I also came from a wrestling background before judo, but the roll concerned, as near as can recall, I learned in a judo context.  Like may other exercises it contributes to judo practice on a physical level, as it involves explosive strength of the shoulder muscles, overall core strength and balance and agility.  All worthwhile in a broader judo context.

    I don't think it's particularly dangerous if, as JudoSensei observes, the student is adequately prepared physically and technically.

    I am more intrigued by the notion that has been raised as to what is and isn't judo.

    CK implies that Daigo Sensei does not have the authority to declare something to be judo.  If not Daigo, given his rank and position within the Kodokan then who?

    I've noticed that most arguments over what constitutes "correct" or "true" or "classical" or even "pure" judo tend to devolve into a combination of ad hominem attacks (look you're only an #-dan...) and/or appeals to authority. (Soandso sensei told me this and he's a >#-dan, so he ought to know.

    In this case we have arguably the single greatest living authority on judo, saying something is judo and apparently that is not good enough.  Certainly I would be in no position to argue with Daigo sensei over any assertion he made about judo.
    Perhaps his colleagues Abe-sensei and Osawa-sensei might wish to do so?

    So if not Daigo san then whom or what?

    Does it take a pronouncement from the Kodokan technical committee?  Consensus of the living judan?  Perhaps no modification to "true judo" is possible after Kano shihan's death.  Are we then like a religion?  Only certain texts and oral teachings from the time of Kano are Canonical or Kano-nical if you will?
    Is it spelled out somewhere, or are we in the ever-popular Japanese approach of "you're just supposed to know".

    noboru

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    Re: Ushiro-kaiten-ukemi

    Post by noboru on Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:42 am


    Next more fotos with japanese text about ways how safety learn ukemi (fot moving to next or previous pages use -> or <- on the bootom of page)

    http://lern-english-japanese.6te.net/SelfDefense/Judo/Judo_by_JMEXT/001/HTML/004-15.htm
    http://lern-english-japanese.6te.net/SelfDefense/Judo/Judo_by_JMEXT/001/HTML/004-15.htm

    NittyRanks

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    Re: Ushiro-kaiten-ukemi

    Post by NittyRanks on Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:16 am

    I have seen that done in warm ups from different Dojo's at tournaments but both schools I was in never did it.

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