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    Is Ronda Rousey the savior judo has been waiting for?

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    Mr_Michael_or_Mike

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    Re: Is Ronda Rousey the savior judo has been waiting for?

    Post by Mr_Michael_or_Mike on Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:56 am

    In America, I wouldn't say that she's a savior, but she does give credibility to Judo in the BJJ, grappling/wrestling and, MMA world. I'm seeing more BJJ people putting up videos of Judo on their facebook pages than I've done in the past. In my area, a number of the BJJ schools are focusing on more traditional aspects, like wearing white gis and, not mix and, match. They also line up before class and, bow. It should open up teaching opportunities for Judo instructors at MMA/BJJ schools.I know of two big MMA schools that have hired top local coaches in North Carolina. Her performance is good advertising for people to realize what a Judo player can do. It's up to American Judo instructors to do the rest.

    Hanon

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    Re: Is Ronda Rousey the savior judo has been waiting for?

    Post by Hanon on Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:30 am

    Grap a coffee, are you sitting comfortably?

    1860-80. Japan is starting to recognise that the feudal system that has ruled Japan and kept it divided and in the dark ages is decadent and needs reforming. A young chap of no real significance studied and practiced several systems of Ju jutsu. This chap saw no end of injuries and also saw what leaning these ryu did to a persons psyche also body. Not healthy in fact barbaric and totally out of sync with what Japan wanted and that was to be integrated into more civilised society. The intent of learning such arts as ju jutstu, the MMA of that period, where uneducational, anti social, bad for the mind and body and gave Japan no chance of moving into the future. The ju jutsu of that period where to lean how to kill in the most efficient manner possible. Martial arts-arts of war.  

    What could be done? The man founded a new ryu and called it Ju-do. The techniques where developed so they didn't harm the body but built it into a healthy one ALSO  the mind-set, the intent where harming another person, ones 'partner' was positively against the rules of this new ryu.

    I suspect many of the time pondered of what use this new Ju-do was and no doubt many of the old school identified judo as a woozie art. That didn't bother this chap at all as he was an educationalist who saw from day one that is was possible for us to exercise our demons in a full combat activity without harming or even desiring to harm out partner. Notice the word partner not opponent.

    Ju-do is noble and if understood and practiced properly it develops character and after many years of refinement and educational teachings Judo became a vehicle that could be used to bridge divides and even bring people together from different races, religions, gender, size and strength. One of the corner stones of learning and practising this new ju-do was to develop the character, learn empathy and to actually give a damn about our 'partner' as without him we could not practice, no practice no self growth. The 'enemy' became the self this is always going to be the most difficult partner we ever have to fight.

    In kodokan judo we can have 100 hard full blown full body contact shiai in one day and return the next for another 100. How?
    Intent. The intent of the judoka is to win but within a code of strict conduct. Self control, self respect and respect for others. The higher goals of judo practice are to win against the self.

    Now we have turned full circle and we see again the same sort of activities we thought we had eradicated 150 years ago. maybe time for a new guy to come along and again found a ryu where its practitioners practice for the benefit of each other and not to earn money by selling their physical set to do so. Mark my words Kodokan judo is NOT the gokyo. Any fool can and many do learn the gokyo but never ever learn kodokan judo.

    Several other points raised. WHER does it say, where is it written judo is a professional paid occupation and those who become elite should be paid? This is a sporting mentality. Judo is not now, never has been and never can be 'a sport' if we make it a sport we destroy it. Hang on too late we already have.

    You don't ever 'cure' a bully by beating him or her half to death. All you do is entrench that highly antisocial and dangerous attitude and reinforce in the bully the need to offend. It may surprise most of you to realise that most bullies are in fact victims of bullying themselves! All you do by giving a bully a good beating is cause that bullies next victim to an even great torment.

    Victims of bullies can in serious cases take their own lives. Bullying is a very serious problem. Serious problems need serious professional responses not knee jerk uneducated responses. Sure when my grandson got bullied I was at the school so fast they thought they where surrounded BUT not to harm the bully but find out WHY he did bully and support him not to. In doing so this is NOT taking the do gooders attitude but doing something to stop the bullying and prevent further victims, it is the judo way. I didn't only learn my profession at university the tatami has taught me so many life lessons.

    The technique used in the clip has no name at all as it is not a judo waza. A judo waza has several components one the physical one the psychological and the other is the intent. If a technique learned in a dojo is abused to harm another person it is NOT judo thus does not have a judo given name. If a judo waza is used to protect the weak or preserve the vulnerable or in absolute self defence this can be different.

    MMA is where judo grew from, developed from, progressed from so why on Gods green earth are we accepting its abuse in modern day MMA?

    I am sure many could have written this missive more eloquently but it will have to do. One either understands judo or one does not. When I see that clip it horrifies me to my very roots, it is an insult to 150 years of the education that kano Jigoro Shihan gave to us. WE should be preserving judo, growing judo not abusing it.
    Do you really think MMA is going to bring new judoka into a dojo? IF it does do we want in judo the sort of person who desires to do what the person does in this clip? Nothing, and I mean NOTHING in that clip comes from Kodokan judo.

    Let me also make this clear. Any so called judo sensei who enters into an MMA club to teach the physical techniques he or she knows has either lost the plot or never understood judo in the first place. I am stony broke yet no amount of cash would entice me to teach what I know to those who desire to use it to hurt other people even against other willing people who call it sport.

    MMA is not good for the mind nor the body and is a grave step backward. It gives the impression that it is acceptable to enter a cage and harm another human being. How can that be an acceptable thing in 2014? The popularity of MMA is another sign of just how thin the veneer of society truly is. Don't we have enough violence without organising it and making a sport of it?

    I know enough already.

    You all keep well and look after each other, care about each other, help and support each other. Get on a tatami and fight like tigers, go for that ippon but always ALWAYS with care in your mind with empathy and compassion for ones partner. That is ju-do as devised by that chap all those years ago.

    Mike


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    DougNZ

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    Re: Is Ronda Rousey the savior judo has been waiting for?

    Post by DougNZ on Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:43 am

    Thank you for your views, Hanon sensei.

    If you permit me to move a little off-topic - away from judo - I would venture that MMA has a use for other martial arts.

    I recently did an exercise, calculating the generations of ju-jitsu instructors before me (excluding my immediate sensei) who had not used their ju-jitsu in combat more than once or twice.  I think I had to go back about nine generations to find someone who had fought for real.  That means that eight generations had passed during which each successive generation assumed that the stuff they were being taught would work in a martial situation.  Add to that an environment that increasingly supported kata and hardly any randori, and it soon became apparent that the modern generation of 'martial artists' in my lineage were likely to be no more than martial dancers.

    I am very fortunate that my sensei had, as part of his occupation, scores and scores of combat situations.  He documented each one and evolved a system that would make him and his employees effective at fighting whilst preserving as much safety as possible for their 'clients' and themselves.  The result is a system that is radically different from the 'traditional jiu jitsu' I originally learnt.

    The knowledge I have acquired from my sensei comes at the potential cost of his health and wellbeing.  He could have been seriously hurt or may have been imprisoned had an incident gone badly.  One use for MMA is as a testing ground for martial art systems in a controlled environment.  It is a contest between two willing people, under agreed rules, in an enclosed safety area, controlled by a referee.  Sure, it is not an all-out combat situation but it is close, having real intention, real resistance and real power at play.  MMA has shown us that trying to catch a punch and throw the puncher with kote gaeshi is a very, very risky move with a high chance of failure.  So is trying to enter and blend with a punch and throw with seoi nage.  So is trying to incapacitate a standing opponent.  And yet all these techniques are taught as mainstream 'martial arts' techniques in dojo throughout the world and pupils have the expectation that they will work in a real fight.

    I do not propose that all martial artists need enter the octagon in order to 'prove' their techniques.  However, we can learn from MMA fighters so we can sort our collection of techniques from most-likely-to-work to looks-good-but-pure-fantasy.  We can also study video for effective distancing, angles, means of unbalancing, as well as tactical and strategic approaches to fighting.  In this respect, MMA has been useful for redefining the science of empty hand combat.  It is not a regression to barbaric times but a reality check for a useful body of knowledge that must be passed on to protect potential victims in the future. I, for one, am appreciative of those athletes who put their body on the line in the octagon and share their experiences outside it so that people like me can learn.

    RR has applied her judo experience to MMA.  I believe that you are correct in saying that she is not 'doing' judo in the ring; her techniques have been heavily modified for various tactical reasons and her motivation is not consistent with early judo ideals.  I can understand how her recent throwing, holding and pounding might horrify you, Hanon, and as a judoka I am glad it does.  However, for people wishing to share the knowledge of preserving wellbeing in combat situations - an equally noble pursuit, I would argue - her foray into MMA is important.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Is Ronda Rousey the savior judo has been waiting for?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:15 pm

    DougNZ wrote:Thank you for your views, Hanon sensei.

    If you permit me to move a little off-topic - away from judo - I would venture that MMA has a use for other martial arts.

    I recently did an exercise, calculating the generations of ju-jitsu instructors before me (excluding my immediate sensei) who had not used their ju-jitsu in combat more than once or twice.  I think I had to go back about nine generations to find someone who had fought for real.  That means that eight generations had passed during which each successive generation assumed that the stuff they were being taught would work in a martial situation.  Add to that an environment that increasingly supported kata and hardly any randori, and it soon became apparent that the modern generation of 'martial artists' in my lineage were likely to be no more than martial dancers.

    I am very fortunate that my sensei had, as part of his occupation, scores and scores of combat situations.  He documented each one and evolved a system that would make him and his employees effective at fighting whilst preserving as much safety as possible for their 'clients' and themselves.  The result is a system that is radically different from the 'traditional jiu jitsu' I originally learnt.

    The knowledge I have acquired from my sensei comes at the potential cost of his health and wellbeing.  He could have been seriously hurt or may have been imprisoned had an incident gone badly.  One use for MMA is as a testing ground for martial art systems in a controlled environment.  It is a contest between two willing people, under agreed rules, in an enclosed safety area, controlled by a referee.  Sure, it is not an all-out combat situation but it is close, having real intention, real resistance and real power at play.  MMA has shown us that trying to catch a punch and throw the puncher with kote gaeshi is a very, very risky move with a high chance of failure.  So is trying to enter and blend with a punch and throw with seoi nage.  So is trying to incapacitate a standing opponent.  And yet all these techniques are taught as mainstream 'martial arts' techniques in dojo throughout the world and pupils have the expectation that they will work in a real fight.

    I do not propose that all martial artists need enter the octagon in order to 'prove' their techniques.  However, we can learn from MMA fighters so we can sort our collection of techniques from most-likely-to-work to looks-good-but-pure-fantasy.  We can also study video for effective distancing, angles, means of unbalancing, as well as tactical and strategic approaches to fighting.  In this respect, MMA has been useful for redefining the science of empty hand combat.  It is not a regression to barbaric times but a reality check for a useful body of knowledge that must be passed on to protect potential victims in the future.  I, for one, am appreciative of those athletes who put their body on the line in the octagon and share their experiences outside it so that people like me can learn.

    RR has applied her judo experience to MMA.  I believe that you are correct in saying that she is not 'doing' judo in the ring; her techniques have been heavily modified for various tactical reasons and her motivation is not consistent with early judo ideals.  I can understand how her recent throwing, holding and pounding might horrify you, Hanon, and as a judoka I am glad it does.  However, for people wishing to share the knowledge of preserving wellbeing in combat situations - an equally noble pursuit, I would argue - her foray into MMA is important.


    Apologies, I am not Hanon-sensei, and I hope you will forgive me for partaking ...

    That's an interesting singularity there which you and Hanon-sensei point out. By the 18th century many Japanese classical martial arts had started evolving into unrealistic performance arts. The risk of serious injury had caused an evolution towards kata. Although that kata was nothing like the kata we see today solely relying on kata was already then seriously questionned as sufficient to become an accomplished martial artist. So Kanô emphasized the practice of both kata and randori, and the option of randori was particularly interesting for the practitioners of many of those stalled old martial arts schools, which undoubtedly was one of the most important factors in the popularity of judo. Around the beginning of the 20th century, Japanese jujutsuka and judoka left a deep impression on the spectators who attended the many exhibition matches with famous Western wrestlers. But Kanô never succeeded in having his jûdô being taught in the West as he intended. The emphasis in the West was entirely on randori which after World War II started evolving more an more into a shiai hence pushing judo towards profiling itself as a competitive sport. While judo had already largely failed as an education in the West, MMA showed that the fighting ability of those trained either in the West of in Japan in the modern sportive form of judo was failing too and Olympic judoka had themselves being wept the floor with. No doubt these many events that were reported in the news of judoka miserably being defeated in the ring again painfully showed the outcome of our training. For those who hadn't realized it yet: if you do not practic jûdô in the way Kanô had suggested, then don't expect that your results will be anywhere what Kanô had argumented. It is that really what was being said.

    The outcome is not surprising since judo worldwide lacks good leadership. The Kôdôkan can't lead, and the IJF wants to lead in something that has nothing to do anymore with jûdô. Those who are lucky may still be working out in a club with an enlightened sensei who for whatever reason grasps the message of jûdô. However, those respected sensei are getting less and less numerous. The Obituary section on this forum and in the newsmedia is too popular, alas.

    The consequence at best is that some jûdôka will be using their assets from sports judo (way of training, physique, physiological abilities, a couple of techniques) but instead of reverting to Kanô's suggested model, will crosstrain in other martial arts, be it BJJ, kickbox, Thai box, or whatever to complete their fighting skills, not their judo skills, with as their purpose not to get on the right track of judo to realize the ultimate goals of judo, but to achieve winning medals or titles, exactly that what jûdô is not. While jûdô as part of its education also trains you to become a skilled fighter it really does so in the sense of jû, so that you never have to actually fight. This is very different from MMA. No MMA fighter does not want to fight. On the contrary. The MMA fighter insists on fighting so that he or she can display above all that he or she is the best and wins the gold. There is no goal in MMA besides winning and showing that you are the strongest.

    In Kanô's original jûdô instances of being the best are also used as transitional phases (tsukinami and kôhaku shiai) to test the efficiency of your technical ability, but being the best is not a goal at all. If it were, then it would imply the importance of ego, but jûdô's most elevated goals precisely emphasize the no-self. The no-self is essential in fulfilling jûdô's admittedly utopian goal of ji-ta kyô-ei. "No-self" is incongruent with the goals of MMA, and the media circus that surrounds it also emphasizes something opposite. Jûdô doesn't walk free either, as the "no-self" is also incongruent with the emphasis that the IJF puts on the winning of tournaments as the goal of some kind of sports judo. Virtually no jûdôka who has the ability to be a great champion spontaneously gives up winning considering that such is not the goal of jûdÔ. It is interesting to realize though that Okano-sensei completely retired from competitve jûdô by the young age of 25, while with his abilities he would have been able to continue for at least 5 years more, perhaps even longer, and could potentially still have won gold In MUnich 1972 as well as in 3-4 more world championships. He chose not to. If anything, you really got to respect the man, just like his ability to have transcended the ridiculous dan-rank system makes him more unique than many realize today.

    In the interest of completeness there is one caveat to be made when discussing jûdô's effectiveness against a background of MMA because though jûdô intended to also make you a safe and efficient fighter, it most likely never had as a purpose to make you into a war machine able to defeat the most ferocious and accomplished fighters, which really is what the strongest MMA fighters amount to.


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:44 am; edited 3 times in total


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    finarashi

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    Re: Is Ronda Rousey the savior judo has been waiting for?

    Post by finarashi on Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:20 pm

    To me the problematic question is; "Am I the kind of person that pays to see people hurt each other?"

    The question might sound simple and easy but to me it has been problematic. I do not like to see e.g. use of sports enhancement drugs as many of those cause damage that is apparent only after some years. I have big problems with competitive sports as I have personally seen how one entices young men to become "heroes" and then after they get hurt, they are abandonded,

    Especially problematic is the current MMA where the main thing is to earn money from viewers and no emphasis is in well being of athletes. So you are young and strong, here is money, but what if you get hurt?

    Some parallel can be found from history. I would have not been comfortable in ancient Rome to see gladiators go to the arena to kill each others. They were heroes. They had fans. They were fighters. They earned large amounts of money. But isn't this what we are? In MMA we pay money to see blood. Pay money to see someone hurting someone?


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    Ricebale

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    Re: Is Ronda Rousey the savior judo has been waiting for?

    Post by Ricebale on Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:58 pm

    If I free stream the event via a pirate site does that make me better or worse?

    hedgehogey

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    Re: Is Ronda Rousey the savior judo has been waiting for?

    Post by hedgehogey on Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:03 pm

    I read most of the above replies in the voice of a horrified nun clutching a rosary.
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    seatea

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    Re: Is Ronda Rousey the savior judo has been waiting for?

    Post by seatea on Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:20 am

    hedgehogey wrote:I read most of the above replies in the voice of a horrified nun clutching a rosary.

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    Cichorei Kano

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    Way up West ...

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:52 am




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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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    afulldeck

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    Re: Is Ronda Rousey the savior judo has been waiting for?

    Post by afulldeck on Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:56 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Fritz wrote:A work colleague of mine has bought an additional external fan device which can be put under the notebook, so that there
    is some space between notebook bottom and desk and some additional air circulation....

    I too have been looking into these devices, as I think it is going to be the only viable solution except for the (for my purposes nonpractical) alternative of putting the CPU at its minimal power. Thanks for all the suggestions.

    Its not the only viable solution, try frozen peas---works for me :-)


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Is Ronda Rousey the savior judo has been waiting for?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:26 am

    afulldeck wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Fritz wrote:A work colleague of mine has bought an additional external fan device which can be put under the notebook, so that there
    is some space between notebook bottom and desk and some additional air circulation....

    I too have been looking into these devices, as I think it is going to be the only viable solution except for the (for my purposes nonpractical) alternative of putting the CPU at its minimal power. Thanks for all the suggestions.

    Its not the only viable solution, try frozen peas---works for me :-)

    Thanks for the suggestion. I have tried gel packs, but here is the thing ... When you put something that is 85°C (that is 185°F) in contact with something frozen, it doesn't stay frozen for very long ...


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    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
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