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    Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

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    Ryvai

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    Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by Ryvai on Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:47 pm

    As many of you have probably noticed, Ronda Rousey ended Alexis Davis in 16 seconds during UFC 175 with a devastating hip toss into kesa-gatame and finished with punches. Some discussion arose afterwards if this is just harai-goshi with a grip in the armpit or an application of harai-makikomi. I stand firm however on that this is harai-goshi. Either I have misunderstood the concept of what is required for it to become makikomi or even Ronda Rousey herself don't know what she threw Davis with. Much of the understanding I have gotten regarding technical stuff is through the fourth method of learning Judo; 'Mondo' (questions and answers/discussion), this is how I learn most effectively. That is why I feel these discussions are important.

    My perception of the throw; Ronda grabs Davis' hand and grabs her armpit with the other hand (a good substitute for the lapel). Ronda lifts Davis' with power coming from the hip, as she is lifted up Ronda's leg is coming into play pushing backwards effectively raising her butt to throw her over. At no point is her hand leaving the armpit- and arm grip and follows her to the ground, landing on top of her. I've seen a trend that people believe 'makikomi' means to follow uke to the ground or just to "twist" uke to the ground, which is obviously not correct. I see no winding motion in this throw.

    Are there some definition of makikomi that I am missing?

    GIF of the throw (not optimal angle for the arm):
    https://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/859326298.gif?1404617801

    Her instagram claiming it to be harai-makikomi:
    http://instagram.com/p/qKDOCdBEXS/?modal=true

    Kodokan demonstrating harai-makikomi:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR2F0mU0ODc&feature=kp

    judo66

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by judo66 on Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:07 am

    To complete as a makikomi you need to wrap around. Therefore with a harai goshi, uchi mata, o soto makikomi or many more techniques you can complete the throw by ''wraping around''. From my point of view it is a makikomi. However trying to associate everything ippon you see in a judo shiaï or a mma bout to a canonical technique of the go kyo or shimeisho is like trying to put judo into a little box...it doesn't fit because judo is always larger than that.

    Ricebale

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by Ricebale on Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:55 am

    Kubi Nagi

    medo

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by medo on Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:21 pm

    Ricebale wrote:Kubi Nagi

    You are very persistent, does the wife moan at you a lot Laughing 

    Ryvai

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by Ryvai on Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:53 pm

    Ricebale wrote:Kubi Nagi

    I did some research into the matter and it now seems pretty clear it is harai-goshi. As I suspected, the problem is; even if there is some kind of wrapping motion, it does not make it makikomi. Let me quote from Toshiro Daigo's book;

    "Tori can also throw uke by wrapping around while gripping uke's collar, but this technique is harai-goshi. The main criterion for harai-makikomi is that tori wraps around while holding uke's right arm under his right armpit" (T. Daigo, Kodokan throwing techniques)

    Picture: http://imgur.com/AO2pLQg

    Additionally I found this statement;

    "Tori can also sweep uke up with his arm around uke's neck, and wrap him around while holding the neck thus, which is a harai-goshi technique and not harai-makikomi." (T. Daigo, Kodokan throwing techniques)

    Picture: http://imgur.com/uw7zPzR

    GregW

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by GregW on Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:33 am

    I agree with the harai goshi assessment. The tsurite arm can go under the arm, as in the NNK, hold onto the collar, or go over the head to the shoulder. My own preference is to go over the head and grab by the shoulder blade, which is what it looks like RR did. That's a good way to use harai goshi without a gi.

    Although her hand goes over her opponent's shoulder, she reaches down around the shoulder blade, not up towards the neck or past it. She doesn't bring it around the neck like a kubi nage and there isn't the "wheel" motion characteristic of koshi guruma. There's not any wrapping motion like a makikomi either, although it is easy to transition from harai goshi reaching over the shoulder to the makikomi if necessary to take uke down.

    There's room for disagreement, but it looks very much like my own harai goshi if I have a really strong uke.

    Ryvai

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by Ryvai on Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:30 am

    GregW wrote:Although her hand goes over her opponent's shoulder, she reaches down around the shoulder blade, not up towards the neck or past it.  She doesn't bring it around the neck like a kubi nage and there isn't the "wheel" motion characteristic of koshi guruma.  There's not any wrapping motion like a makikomi either, although it is easy to transition from harai goshi reaching over the shoulder to the makikomi if necessary to take uke down.
    ¨

    As I stated in my post, if she would have grabbed around uke's neck it would not have made any difference (look at the pictures I posted from Daigo's book). It is clearly specified that it cannot be makikomi without tori holding uke's arm under her armpit, with the exception being uchi-makikomi. I see many people discuss the technique kubi-nage. As this have been up for discussion before, is this not just an old term for a specific way of performing koshi-guruma?

    Ricebale

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by Ricebale on Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:36 am

    http://www.stickgrappler.net/2014/07/joe-silvia-every-throw-has-specific.html?m=1

    Emanuele2

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by Emanuele2 on Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:05 pm

    Koshi guruma

    medo

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by medo on Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:15 am

    I will name it as Koshi-harai-goshi Its got a ring to it if you say it to yourself  Very Happy  It may make the BJA syllabus next year!
    Well a wrestler called Joe, has given the technique a definitive name well done to him  affraid

    GregW

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by GregW on Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:11 pm

    From what I have seen, the leg position for a right-sided kubi nage extends the right leg outward to the outside of uke's feet, much like a tai otoshi. Uke goes over the hip and the extended leg, which is planted on the ground (not reaping upward and back). My understanding is that koshi guruma keeps the feet inside uke's feet, like o goshi and the hip placement is similar to o goshi. The leg position facilitates the "wheel" motion in the arms during the execution of the throw. I'm sure Hanon Sensei or CK Sensei could give us a more detailed explanation of the nuances, but as I've studied a lot of videos of people performing them (including those in the aiki arts) those are the things that struck me as most apparent.

    Ryvai

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by Ryvai on Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:44 pm

    medo wrote:I will name it as Koshi-harai-goshi Its got a ring to it if you say it to yourself  Very Happy

    As tempting as that may seem, one cannot just make up names in this way, it doesn't make any sense. Koshi and goshi is the same word. It is usually written koshi when it is the first word of sentence e.g. koshi guruma, however when it comes in later e.g. harai-goshi, it is written goshi. My english vocabulary is not good enough to explain it in any better way Smile

    GregW wrote:From what I have seen, the leg position for a right-sided kubi nage extends the right leg outward to the outside of uke's feet, much like a tai otoshi.  Uke goes over the hip and the extended leg, which is planted on the ground (not reaping upward and back).  My understanding is that koshi guruma keeps the feet inside uke's feet, like o goshi and the hip placement is similar to o goshi.  The leg position facilitates the "wheel" motion in the arms during the execution of the throw.  I'm sure Hanon Sensei or CK Sensei could give us a more detailed explanation of the nuances, but as I've studied a lot of videos of people performing them (including those in the aiki arts) those are the things that struck me as most apparent.

    I cannot discuss 'kubi-nage' as I simple dont understand this technique and it's historical connection with koshi-guruma. I cannot seem to find any good references for it either, but I've heard tales of it's use hehe. Koshi-guruma is a throw which is usually performed with the hip deeply inserted, clearly using the hip as a fulcrum. In the case of Ronda I only see this inserted halfway. While Davis is trying to step forward with her left leg to circle around and avoid the throw, Ronda's left leg starts harai-goshi and effectively blocks her leg from taking a step forward and around. The reaping of the leg is the icing on the cake that completes this throw, and, In my opinion is what classifies the final waza.

    Many seem to focus on her grip. Without a jacket this grip is completely natural for harai-goshi, holding in her armpit area makes for better upper-body control and is great for this purpose. Why would it become koshi-guruma just because she is holding somewhat around her head? I dont understand. I just dont see this as any koshi-guruma when the leg is used that actively. Isn't it the hips and the leg that is the main factor here? Daigo clearly stated in his book that holding uke around her neck (or armpit in this case, same matter) does not make it makikomi.



    Emanuele2 wrote:Koshi guruma
    Still, I cannot see this as any koshi-guruma. The leg is used too actively and the hips should be more deeply inserted. If you look at this picture from Daigo's book under Harai-goshi. Doesn't it look similar?


    medo

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by medo on Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:25 pm

    Ryvai my post is somewhat "tongue in cheek"

    Please take a look through http://judo.forumsmotion.com/t1991-is-ronda-rousey-the-savior-judo-has-been-waiting-for (from post 13)

    Questions on the RR throw started here nearly got an answer from CK but computer says no!

    But thanks for your research

    DougNZ

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by DougNZ on Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:46 pm

    I think everyone is getting a bit hung up on names instead of admiring this throw for what it is.

    There are three components of this throw that I love.  First, RR does not get her hips in perhaps as far as she would like.  She feels Davis' left leg advance and, perhaps fearing an escape, goes high with her own left leg to secure Davis' leg on the outside.  The step ends up only being a half-step and her 'finding' Davis' leg becomes a lifting block which she maintains almost to the ground.  

    The second component is that, feeling her hips are in shallow and high, and with Davis moving her left leg forward, RR enlarges her rotation, using more of a spiral / wheel to keep Davis on the fulcrum.

    Thirdly, with most of the job done, RR reverses her rotation to ensure Davis will not be able to use the circular momentum of the throw to reverse her and to make sure she lands squarely on top, which she does.

    The wonder of this throw is that all these minute but significant adjustments happened in hundredths of seconds.  It is only by use of super slow-mo that we can begin to grasp how well it was executed. This is a sophisticated throw by one who clearly has a great 'feel' for what she does.  Great work!

    Ricebale

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by Ricebale on Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:57 pm

    DougNZ wrote:First, RR does not get her hips in perhaps as far as she would like.  She feels Davis' left leg advance and, perhaps fearing an escape, goes high with her own left leg to secure Davis' leg on the outside.  The step ends up only being a half-step and her 'finding' Davis' leg becomes a lifting block which she maintains almost to the ground.  

    The second component is that, feeling her hips are in shallow and high, and with Davis moving her left leg forward, RR enlarges her rotation, using more of a spiral / wheel to keep Davis on the fulcrum.

    Thirdly, with most of the job done, RR reverses her rotation to ensure Davis will not be able to use the circular momentum of the throw to reverse her and to make sure she lands squarely on top, which she does.

    Indeed, by having control of the head area only really (kubi) she was able to execute an excellent throw (nage), who cares what it's called !!

    medo

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by medo on Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:18 pm

    DougNZ wrote:I think everyone is getting a bit hung up on names instead of admiring this throw for what it is.

    There are three components of this throw that I love.  First, RR does not get her hips in perhaps as far as she would like.  She feels Davis' left leg advance and, perhaps fearing an escape, goes high with her own left leg to secure Davis' leg on the outside.  The step ends up only being a half-step and her 'finding' Davis' leg becomes a lifting block which she maintains almost to the ground.  


    RR would not feel anything it would come completely instinctively to her having spent years of practice. The throw its self is what an experience Judoka would formulate on a smaller uke, not being able to get hips in, major control of the upper body locked fully onto tori and wheeled around the thigh/buttock area. look at the landing position from the starting position.


    DougNZ

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by DougNZ on Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:20 pm

    I'd like to add that the trouble people have in classifying this throw is that it eventuated from non-standard judo unbalancing. First, Davis tried to duck RR's straight right punch. I'm not sure whether Davis lacks some experience in stand-up or whether she was simply reacting to the right immediately following a good left feint, but she inclined forward rather than bending her knees to bob. RR took advantage of Davis' head-forward posture, kept her head in that position and delivered a knee to the mid-section, which lifted Davis' hips up and slightly back. The result was an excellent state of kuzushi which RR could exploit. The grips that offered themselves were an armpit grip for the fitting and an arm overhook for the drawing. The throw she chose was the one we saw.

    DougNZ

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by DougNZ on Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:26 pm

    medo wrote:RR would not feel anything it would come completely instinctively to her having spent years of practice.  

    That's kinda the point I was trying to make: it was a sophisticated, instinctive throw performed in the blink of an eye. RR got the win in 16 seconds and it is us who are spending hours pulling it apart. I'm pretty sure she has moved on...

    medo

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by medo on Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:29 pm

    Ricebale wrote:
    DougNZ wrote:First, RR does not get her hips in perhaps as far as she would like.  She feels Davis' left leg advance and, perhaps fearing an escape, goes high with her own left leg to secure Davis' leg on the outside.  The step ends up only being a half-step and her 'finding' Davis' leg becomes a lifting block which she maintains almost to the ground.  

    The second component is that, feeling her hips are in shallow and high, and with Davis moving her left leg forward, RR enlarges her rotation, using more of a spiral / wheel to keep Davis on the fulcrum.

    Thirdly, with most of the job done, RR reverses her rotation to ensure Davis will not be able to use the circular momentum of the throw to reverse her and to make sure she lands squarely on top, which she does.

    Indeed, by having control of the head area only really (kubi) she was able to execute an excellent throw (nage), who cares what it's called !!

    Kubi = neck, one normally performs Kubi nage with the neck trapped in the crook of the arm, hence danger around neck vertebra

    medo

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by medo on Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:51 pm

    DougNZ wrote:
    medo wrote:RR would not feel anything it would come completely instinctively to her having spent years of practice.   

    That's kinda the point I was trying to make: it was a sophisticated, instinctive throw performed in the blink of an eye.  RR got the win in 16 seconds and it is us who are spending hours pulling it apart.  I'm pretty sure she has moved on...

    We are not pulling it apart we are all learning from analyzing the structure of the technique.

    Thats what I love about "name that technique questions" you get a load of different ideas from different persons from different countries, what one set of eyes see's another misses. Your sensei may say its a goshi technique the sensei down the road may say its kubi nagi trouble is who ever is right or wrong the inconsistencies will be passed on and taught to many hundreds of students over the years.
    I used to get high grade students from all over who often confused techniques because there original teacher was completely wrong!

    Ricebale

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by Ricebale on Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:30 pm

    medo wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:
    DougNZ wrote:First, RR does not get her hips in perhaps as far as she would like.  She feels Davis' left leg advance and, perhaps fearing an escape, goes high with her own left leg to secure Davis' leg on the outside.  The step ends up only being a half-step and her 'finding' Davis' leg becomes a lifting block which she maintains almost to the ground.  

    The second component is that, feeling her hips are in shallow and high, and with Davis moving her left leg forward, RR enlarges her rotation, using more of a spiral / wheel to keep Davis on the fulcrum.

    Thirdly, with most of the job done, RR reverses her rotation to ensure Davis will not be able to use the circular momentum of the throw to reverse her and to make sure she lands squarely on top, which she does.

    Indeed, by having control of the head area only really (kubi) she was able to execute an excellent throw (nage), who cares what it's called !!

    Kubi = neck, one normally performs Kubi nage with the neck trapped in the crook of the arm, hence danger around neck vertebra    

    Head, neck, foot close enough Smile

    Ryvai

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by Ryvai on Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:45 pm

    Ricebale wrote:Indeed, by having control of the head area only really (kubi) she was able to execute an excellent throw (nage), who cares what it's called !!

    This is 'mondo' (questions and answers/discussion) one of the four ways of learning Judo. Personally I learn a tremendous amount by analyzing the technique in this way instead of accepting; "whatever, its a throw", instead I seek to understand. Of course there are many aspects of it, as our friend Hanon pointed out, that none of what you see her perform is Kodokan Judo at all, because her 'intention' is to hurt or knock her unconscious with the throw. But also there is a purely technical aspect, intentions aside, that fascinates me. That is why i beg the question of what principles this type of throw would follow, cause quite frankly, this exact technique might as well have been used in shiai, with that exact grip. So how would it be judged? I would appreciate a comment from CK on this Smile

    medo

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by medo on Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:56 pm



    Kubi = neck, one normally performs Kubi nage with the neck trapped in the crook of the arm, hence danger around neck vertebra    [/quote]

    Head, neck, foot close enough Smile[/quote]

    Use sambo or wrestling terminology stick with mixed stuff its close enough to Judo  silent 

    medo

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by medo on Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:02 pm

    Ryvai wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:Indeed, by having control of the head area only really (kubi) she was able to execute an excellent throw (nage), who cares what it's called !!

    This is 'mondo' (questions and answers/discussion) one of the four ways of learning Judo. Personally I learn a tremendous amount by analyzing the technique in this way instead of accepting; "whatever, its a throw", instead I seek to understand. Of course there are many aspects of it, as our friend Hanon pointed out, that none of what you see her perform is Kodokan Judo at all, because her 'intention' is to hurt or knock her unconscious with the throw. But also there is a purely technical aspect, intentions aside, that fascinates me. That is why i beg the question of what principles this type of throw would follow, cause quite frankly, this exact technique might as well have been used in shiai, with that exact grip. So how would it be judged? I would appreciate a comment from CK on this Smile

    Ippon cheers   its one of those quick take techniques from rei often seen when there is a mismatch of experience or weight in kids divisions.

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    Re: Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Post by Richard Riehle on Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:21 am

    Ricebale wrote:Kubi Nagi

    I agree with Ricebale on this. She used a perfect example of kubi-nage from the old-time Ju-jutsu canon. Her arm was around her opponent's neck, not under the armpit. She had her leg extended to block her opponent's leg, as in kubi-nage. However, in original kubi-nage practice, tori usually planted the blocking leg somewhat similarly to tai-otoshi.

    Kubi-nage is a very old Ju-jutsu throw. It is not legal in modern Judo. Instead, we have a modification of it called koshi-guruma in which the hips are placed deep inside uke's abdominal area and the arm, instead of holding uke's neck, is place around uke's back close to the opposite shoulder. When that arm is wrapped around uke's neck, it is clearly kubi-nage, a "neck-grip throw," with emphasis on the neck-grip.

    For a makikomi, there usually needs to be a distinctive wraparound, a winding motion. This did not seem to me to have as much of that motion as we would expect even though the completed technique ended up with both contestants on the mat.



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