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    Waki-Gatame, Transition into Ne-Waza

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    Fritz

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    Waki-Gatame, Transition into Ne-Waza

    Post by Fritz on Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:58 pm

    The current IJF-ruleset says these to the topic:
    http://www.intjudo.eu/upload/2014_06/03/140180706544806028/ijf_ref_rules_2014_16_eng_final_version_1.05.pdf wrote:Cool To fall directly to the Tatami while applying or attempting to apply techniques such as
    Ude-hishigi-waki-gatame.
    with the following explanation:
    http://www.intjudo.eu/upload/2014_06/03/140180706544806028/ijf_ref_rules_2014_16_eng_final_version_1.05.pdf wrote:Cool To attempt such throws as Harai-goshi, Uchi-mata, etc., with only one hand gripping the opponent's lapel from a position resembling
    Ude-hishigi-waki-gatame (in which the wrist of the opponent is trapped beneath the thrower's armpit) and deliberately falling, face down, onto the
    Tatami is likely to cause injury and will be penalised. No intent to throw an opponent
    cleanly onto his back is a dangerous action and will be treated in the same way as Ude-hishigi-waki-gatame.
    Now my questions to our (non german) IJF certified referees:
    Is there now an interpretation of the rules that _every_ transition via Waki-Gatame  from Tachi-Waza to Ne-Waza is prohibited?
    If yes - where it is documented?


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Waki-Gatame, Transition into Ne-Waza

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:11 am

    Fritz wrote:The current IJF-ruleset says these to the topic:
    http://www.intjudo.eu/upload/2014_06/03/140180706544806028/ijf_ref_rules_2014_16_eng_final_version_1.05.pdf wrote:Cool To fall directly to the Tatami while applying or attempting to apply techniques such as
    Ude-hishigi-waki-gatame.
    with the following explanation:
    http://www.intjudo.eu/upload/2014_06/03/140180706544806028/ijf_ref_rules_2014_16_eng_final_version_1.05.pdf wrote:Cool To attempt such throws as Harai-goshi, Uchi-mata, etc., with only one hand gripping the opponent's lapel from a position resembling
    Ude-hishigi-waki-gatame (in which the wrist of the opponent is trapped beneath the thrower's armpit) and deliberately falling, face down, onto the
    Tatami is likely to cause injury and will be penalised. No intent to throw an opponent
    cleanly onto his back is a dangerous action and will be treated in the same way as Ude-hishigi-waki-gatame.
    Now my questions to our (non german) IJF certified referees:
    Is there now an interpretation of the rules that _every_ transition via Waki-Gatame  from Tachi-Waza to Ne-Waza is prohibited?
    If yes - where it is documented?

    No. The critical part is "deliberately falling, face down" (...).

    As long as you don't fall "face down" there is no problem. You can still go to th tatami backwards or rolling, either falling or not falling, AND you can also go "face down" as long as you don't go "face down while deliberately falling". If you go down face down, first on one knee or directly on both knees in a controlled way, so not "falling" it is also permitted. The second way of expression simply tries to reword it to prevent misinterpretation which widely occurred. Whether the IJF has done the best possible way is another question. Perhaps they should update the article by explicitly adding how it is permitted.


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    Fritz

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    Re: Waki-Gatame, Transition into Ne-Waza

    Post by Fritz on Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:01 am

    Thank you CK...

    Background of my question is this: http://www.dasjudoforum.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7179

    Our judo federation has added a short statement to the translation of the rules, that every kind of Waki-Gatame from tachi to ne-waza is forbidden.

    And now they (our referees) claim, that referee Stephan Bode (who produced the translation)
    only has written down the current interpretation of this IJF rule and the current IJF rule document would be outdated or so...

    And so I'm interested to find out, if there is such international interpretation (resp. "unwritten rule")
    or if our referees are simply wrong / unable to understand the IJF text...




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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Waki-Gatame, Transition into Ne-Waza

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:18 am

    Fritz wrote:Thank you CK...

    Background of my question is this: http://www.dasjudoforum.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7179

    Our judo federation has added a short statement to the translation of the rules, that every kind of Waki-Gatame from tachi to ne-waza is forbidden.

    OK, I understand.


    Fritz wrote:
    And now they (our referees) claim, that referee Stephan Bode (who produced the translation)
    only has written down the current interpretation of this IJF rule and the current IJF rule document would be outdated or so...

    And so I'm interested to find out, if there is such international interpretation (resp. "unwritten rule")
    or if our referees are simply wrong / unable to understand the IJF text...


    I am going to withhold comment then. I have now retired from actively refereeing. Although I am still part of our refereeing committee I am only there because the board and committee insisted I'd stay as they wanted my experience. I have wanted to resign several times ...


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    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
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    finarashi

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    Re: Waki-Gatame, Transition into Ne-Waza

    Post by finarashi on Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:38 am

    For those interested here is a report on EJU referee seminar Turkey may 2014

    http://www.judo.se/ImageVaultFiles/id_53042/cf_78/Refereeing_and_coaches_seminar_2014.PDF

    It does not mention waki-gatame.


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    cp2000

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    Re: Waki-Gatame, Transition into Ne-Waza

    Post by cp2000 on Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:42 am

    finarashi wrote:For those interested here is a report on EJU referee seminar Turkey may 2014

    http://www.judo.se/ImageVaultFiles/id_53042/cf_78/Refereeing_and_coaches_seminar_2014.PDF

    It does not mention waki-gatame.

    On page 11 of the attached document, they mentioned that osaekomi in golden score will be allowed to continue to reach Ippon.

    In the U.S. at the beginning of the year, it was announced that osaekomi in golden score would stop at 10 seconds when a Yuko was earned.

    Has the rule been changed?
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    finarashi

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    Re: Waki-Gatame, Transition into Ne-Waza

    Post by finarashi on Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:03 am

    cp2000 wrote:
    finarashi wrote:For those interested here is a report on EJU referee seminar Turkey may 2014

    http://www.judo.se/ImageVaultFiles/id_53042/cf_78/Refereeing_and_coaches_seminar_2014.PDF

    It does not mention waki-gatame.

    On page 11 of the attached document, they mentioned that osaekomi in golden score will be allowed to continue to reach Ippon.

    In the U.S. at the beginning of the year, it was announced that osaekomi in golden score would stop at 10 seconds when a Yuko was earned.

    Has the rule been changed?
    You in the US are so much late for all important stuff. When someone is nominated to the IJF refereeing commission he needs to leave his mark. So now comes the "new interpretations". So no rule "changes". Rules are the same.
    1. In a pool it could be a bronze if you get a yuko and a gold if you get ippon. So interpretation where you let the match continue up till mate or sore-made makes sense.
    2. All this stuff is later than beginning of the year so you are refering to ancient old stuff (like XX in this forum).


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