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    Seated guard

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    Creamy creamy baileys

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    Seated guard

    Post by Creamy creamy baileys on Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:46 pm

    Does anyone here prefer to start from seated guard? I think I start 80% of newaza sessions like this. My personal take is that it (a) stops stupid knee fighting (b) reduces potential for injury. At other times I like to start from turtle.

    (Note: I'm excluding throw-ground, or 'double ippon' transition work here: I mean straight ground-fighting or rounds)

    Of course, I'm about 1000 yrs shy of being able to do what MG does.




    Are there any pitfalls that I'm not thinking through of starting from seated guard like this?
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    nomoremondays

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    Re: Seated guard

    Post by nomoremondays on Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:31 am

    Creamy creamy baileys wrote:Does anyone here prefer to start from seated guard? I think I start 80% of newaza sessions like this. My personal take is that it (a) stops stupid knee fighting (b) reduces potential for injury. At other times I like to start from turtle.

    (Note: I'm excluding throw-ground, or 'double ippon' transition work here: I mean straight ground-fighting or rounds)

    Of course, I'm about 1000 yrs shy of being able to do what MG does.




    Are there any pitfalls that I'm not thinking through of starting from seated guard like this?

    Would you like non bjj-ers to comment?
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    Dutch Budo

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    Re: Seated guard

    Post by Dutch Budo on Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:52 am

    What Marcelo does really well, like no other you can say, is bring his hips underneath his partner to sweep. If you start in seated guard, dont let your back touch the ground before you have brought your hips as far under your partner as possible.


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    seatea

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    Re: Seated guard

    Post by seatea on Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:36 am

    Yes, I go to seated most times, regardless of whether I'm in judo class or BJJ. It's worth it just to avoid wasting time knee-wrestling.
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: Seated guard

    Post by genetic judoka on Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:48 pm

    yeah I pretty just much bow and sit down every time we start from the knees. not that I can at all compare myself to MG.


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    Creamy creamy baileys

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    Re: Seated guard

    Post by Creamy creamy baileys on Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:17 pm

    nomoremondays wrote:

    Would you like non bjj-ers to comment?

    Sure, why not.
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    nomoremondays

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    Re: Seated guard

    Post by nomoremondays on Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:49 am

    Creamy creamy baileys wrote:
    Sure, why not.
    Cool. Just making sure who the audience is.

    My impression has been that this is the go to position for most judo folks who are quite competent on the ground. I have seen that in many places across 'judo styles'. I myself like to take this position when I am at a new place or going against someone I have never met before. The easy barrier of the legs and arms lets me feel out my partner and where his 'mind' is at quickly before I get put or put myself in a compromising position injury potential wise. For example, I will never put myself in turtle in a new place without first forming a first impression and this position lets me scope that out.

    As an attacking position it is very powerful as you can pit all four limbs against your partner. More so, I feel, than other positions when you are flatter on your back and thus sacrifice some natural mobility. Similarly when attacking this position my view is that it is preferable to control the lower body first. Though some might of course prefer other ways. Watching the video I was quite surprised that the shaved head black belt kept leaning in to attack this position time and again. He kept getting reversed repeatedly from the same set up. I think controlling at least one leg point, maybe the knee(s), is vital before attempting to cross over. Easier said than done one supposes.
    As regards to stalling, this position is however not immune to it. Once uke is aware of the dangers of leaning in - a quick reversal when concerned with tori's upper body (as seen in vid) or a quick choke (when trying to tie up the lower body) - many try to play against it by leaning/sitting back against it. It does not necessarily imply a stalemate as other options open up but it definitely alters the flow a bit than how I like it.
    Just my thoughts, happy to hear yours and others.


    Last edited by nomoremondays on Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:56 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typos)

    Aikiman

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    Re: Seated guard

    Post by Aikiman on Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:52 pm

    When i want to work my guard and sweeps, i usully start sitting down, if i want to work my guard passing i usually start sitting on one cheek with the the oposite foot on the ground, knee up. This, of course, varies according with uke's disposition, if he wants to play guard ill usually try to pass it, if he is indecisive i usually work my guard... because normally no one lets me do it.. Very Happy

    DougNZ

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    Re: Seated guard

    Post by DougNZ on Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:41 am

    This year I made it a 'rule' that we start all ne waza bouts with one seated and one kneeling. As said above, it cuts out wasted time with both on knees trying to unbalance. It also means one focuses on guard work and the other on guard passes.

    As a ju-jitsuka, the seated guard fits nicely in our ground system. If knocked to the ground, we take up a foetal guard - on our side, front side facing uke, covering with top forearm and top shin, and kicking with top foot. When we can we pop up to a seated position supported by hands behind, heels together, toes out and off the ground, spinning on our bum and stomping with either foot. When we get space we pop out to a kneeling or standing guard. However, the seated guard allows us to attack forward on the ground from the spinning seated guard, should we wish to engage. Wrist and elbow controls seem to take care of most strikes coming our way but it is a bit vulnerable to some kick attacks. These can often be avoided by falling back to the foetal guard and building back up to seated. Our main goal in self defence, though, is to get off the ground.

    Getting back to that wizard, Marcelo Garcia, I love how he is always going for position first, usually trying to control uke's upper body. That fits well with the clinching style of fighting that we do. I also like that, with seated guard, the top half is also doing pretty much what we'd do on our feet. Many of the sweeps and reversals are similar to standing, too: kneel prop = hiza guruma / uki waza / yoko otoshi; single elevation = sumi gaeshi / yoko tomoe; hip push from x-guard = kata ashi dori. Gotta love principles-based fighting.
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    JudoStu

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    Re: Seated guard

    Post by JudoStu on Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:58 pm

    i'm not a BJJ guy but Garcia is great to watch. He moves so smoothly from one position to another.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Seated guard

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:12 pm

    I use what I think you guys are calling "seated guard" all the time. I was taught never to lay flat on my back in ne waza in any case, and have a sort of pathological aversion to doing so to this day.



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    BillC

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    Re: Seated guard

    Post by BillC on Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:41 am

    Wow, we can have the whole knee wrestling thread on this forum too ... sooner than later ... anyone up for that? Evil or Very Mad

    A judo-focused comment follows.

    The problem I see in dropping into the krushed-kintama position is multifold. I am far from a newaza know-it-all, but I can benefit from the truly gifted sensei in my life as well as read and study the teaching of people who are.

    The basic problem as taught to me is that this is a position that is not always encountered in judo, not the only place where tachiwaza turns to newaza. "Best Judo" (p. 98), presumably mirroring the method of author Sato Nobuyuki (no slouch at newaza), divides this into four situations nicely. In order "you are on your back" or the aforementioned guard; "the opponent is on his back" or in the opponents guard; "the opponent is on all fours" or is turtled; "you are on all fours" or you are in the turtle position ... I use turtle loosely because it has become synonymous but in fact it does not assume a tight, defensive position. Forget for a moment the fifth situation he neglects ... the skilled entry into newaza from a standing position ... he was no slouch at that either ... and that did not mean "drop into the guard and pull your opponent down."

    Rather than write a newaza version of "War and Peace" let me come to the point. One might consider the existential questions ... how did I get here and where am I going?

    Why, for example, if you have your hand on your opponent's collar and belt, with him having typically messed up seoiotoshi and you having survived, turned back into him and covered him ... why would you yourself drop into "the guard" leaving 42 1/4 good entries on the way there? Why even "take his back" and "sink your hooks?" One wouldn't ... or shouldn't ... in judo one needs to quickly hit what is closest as a matter of time allowed and basic theory. So why practice always with the assumption of sitting on one's butt with legs spread?

    Me, personally I do not find "knee wrestling" to be at all useless, I find a straight line ability between tachiwaza ability and this posture. That said, it does not provide balanced practice of all four noted above. Me, if I had my choice all the time, I would designate a starting position from one of the four in rotation.

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    Creamy creamy baileys

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    Re: Seated guard

    Post by Creamy creamy baileys on Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:11 am

    Sure, it's more a conceit towards expediting play and avoiding injuries. OTOH, if you wanted direct applicability -

    You've just been thrown with ouchigari and have landed on your butt and side. Welcome to open guard / seated guard

    You've just sat up in order to escape from kesa gatame / Yoko-shiho-gatame. Welcome to open guard / seated guard.

    IOW, it's not as if the position doesn't occur (albeit transitionally). But as I said, the utility is mostly one of self preservation.

    Otherwise, agree with you positional hierarchy. It's something I like to use during 'terminal ippon' training (ie: throw the guy,he doesn't land cleanly but in one of those positions, immediately transition into x)

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    nomoremondays

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    Re: Seated guard

    Post by nomoremondays on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:22 pm

    BillC wrote:Wow, we can have the whole knee wrestling thread on this forum too ... sooner than later ... anyone up for that? Evil or Very Mad
    I'll bite.
    BillC wrote:
    Me, personally I do not find "knee wrestling" to be at all useless, I find a straight line ability between tachiwaza ability and this posture. That said, it does not provide balanced practice of all four noted above. Me, if I had my choice all the time, I would designate a starting position from one of the four in rotation.

    I actually don't mind knee wrestling either. However, I usually never try do it against someone who does not have decades of experience. I frequently get to do newaza with a couple grizzled 5th dans. Many times (if the position has not been pre-decided by the instructor first) they will just go to their backs on their own. But sometimes they do not[why?who knows what these old buggers are thinking :-) ] but I will not pull them into my 'guard' instantly. I will try to do to (gentle) knee wrestling then and oh my, I actually feel like such a novice with them then. Any slight movement I give them they will use their hand and core to off balance me into a pin/all fours. It is a chance for a rare lesson for me then and I much appreciate it. Keep in mind I am talking of gentle randori and me not brutalizing them by shutting everything down but actually working on/with movement.

    Now does it have practical utility? Maybe not directly, but when they topple me over back/forward/sideways it is indeed a rare lesson in kuzushi for me. I find it much similar to the situation when I do stand up randori with them. Honestly they will not throw me if I was to really insist. But when we do gentle randori, man, its like I am in ashiwaza heaven. I find it a similar parallel. Something which is hard to re-create with people who do not have tons of experience all around.

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