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    Habukareta-waza

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    Cichorei Kano

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    Habukareta-waza

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:45 am





    I understand that the instructor is a former student of the late Phil Porter, USMAF 10th dan and USJA 9th dan.


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    medo

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by medo on Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:51 am

    What!,,, thought it was a karate class doing some throws, good job uki can jump, zero kuzushi.
    The dan grade demonstrating would only be a upper kyu grade if that, over here.
    Complete lack of basic Judo principles shameful!!!
    What does habukareta waza mean? Other than don't waste you money here find a good teacher not a armchair sensei.


    Fritz

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by Fritz on Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:27 am

    Nice dojo ...

    But  *-Otoshi, Hikkomi-Gaeshi looks quite strange in my eyes... and i dislike demonstrations of
    throws against more or less static Uke, mostly the kuzushi (if any) then is done via brute force...

    medo wrote:What does habukareta waza mean?
    This means the techniques from the former Gokyo which now are not contained anymore...


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:15 am

    medo wrote:What!,,, thought it was a karate class doing some throws, good job uki can jump, zero kuzushi.
    The dan grade demonstrating would only be a upper kyu grade if that, over here.
    Complete lack of basic Judo principles shameful!!!
    What does habukareta waza mean? Other than don't waste you money here find a good teacher not a armchair sensei.


    The Japanese verb habuku means "to omit" or "to exclude". Habukareta is the past tense of the passive vorm of the verb thus meaning "have been excluded", so "habukareta-waza" means literally "techniques that have been omitted". As Fritz has already suggested, meant are those techniques which were part of the 1895 goyô but omitted in the second version of the techniques.




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    medo

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by medo on Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:40 am

    Thanks not come across habukareta waza before
    Question do these techniques demonstrate resemble the correct habukareta waza
    Think someones learned them out of a book and has spent at least a few 2hr lessons practicing to present this fine display.

    You have just got to see the other demonstrations in this collection, 7th dan sensei showing that he's randori sessions have been very limited over the years. The knife defence, if anyone attacted him with a knife he would be dead and he teaches.... Wow!

    medo

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by medo on Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:25 am

    Thanks not come across habukareta waza before
    Question do these techniques demonstrate resemble the correct habukareta waza
    Think someones learned them out of a book and has spent at least a few 2hr lessons practicing to present this fine display.

    You have just got to see the other demonstrations in this collection, 7th dan sensei showing that he's randori sessions have been very limited over the years. The knife defence, if anyone attacted him with a knife he would be dead and he teaches.... Wow!

    Ricebale

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by Ricebale on Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:42 am

    medo wrote:What!,,, thought it was a karate class doing some throws, good job uki can jump, zero kuzushi.
    The dan grade demonstrating would only be a upper kyu grade if that, over here.
    Complete lack of basic Judo principles shameful!!!
    What does habukareta waza mean? Other than don't waste you money here find a good teacher not a armchair sensei.


    I dunno these techs so I'll leave that to others, what I do notice when looking at vids is that the dojo has been so overdone to try and look like a foreign place and with diplomas everywhere, I notice that just about any credible Japanese demonstration doesn't have all this paraphanalia in the background, usually just a Judo mat and some Japanese guys standing around, so I get suspicious when I see all the trimmings it elsewhere.

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:15 pm

    medo wrote:Thanks not come across habukareta waza before
    Question do these techniques demonstrate resemble the correct habukareta waza


    Oh, but that is of course an entirely different question, which I leave to the erudition of others. I only posted this clip because it was the only one I knew of that is available on the net. There are other clips which just demonstrate a single technique and there are also some that have a range of techniques from the Habukareta-waza and the Shinmeishô-no-waza. In this way I only endeavored to increase the understanding of the reader in the categorization of jûdô throwing techniques that are not part of the gokyô. That really was the only purpose. Moving images simply sometimes stick better than text.


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    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    NBK

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by NBK on Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:46 pm

    Kind of curious.  It is interesting to see them all in one group.

    I don't mean this unkindly, but it does beg some questions.  

    Is the '6th Gokyo' title an inside joke?  The Gokyo literally means the Five Teachings or Lessons.  There is no 6th.  

    I find the obi otoshi odd.  While some old jujutsu schools have a similar approach (front or rear), in judo it should have a rear entry, not be from the side, and be very similar to sukui nage; in fact, obi otoshi was dropped in favor of sukui nage.    


    It doesn't matter if they heard it from Phil Porter sensei or Jesus himself (I reckon neither is likely! Wink  ), at 3:40 neither the demonstration and explanation are of Kodokan judo's osoto-otoshi.  Osoto otoshi is _not_ a modified osoto gari, which is what is shown and explained.  This is osoto otoshi, a markedly different technique with a very different riai:
     
    The more ponderous I get, the more it shows up in my judo - it is now an old friend.....   elephant  (CK note Hirano sensei.... man, what a talent....)  

    Osoto otoshi is part certain koryu jujutsu schools, sometimes assuming that tori's upper body is weighed down with armor, weapons, helmet, etc.   - executing osoto otoshi, tori's upper body can remain more upright, driving through uke's leg.  In some kata, you remain upright, freeing a hand to snatch a short weapon to finish off uke.  

    Osoto gari assumes wearing light keikogi or street clothes, allowing tori to sweep while driving his upper body through - one of the modernizations of traditional throws implemented by the Kodokan.

    6:30 the 'rearward daki-wakare'..... hmmm...  when does such become
    tani-otoshi?  I don't really know the riai of the various wakare but I'm pretty sure That Ain't It.  

    Speaking of all the stuff on the walls, I've never seen a Buddha in a Japanese dojo.  Much less a stone one sitting on the freakin' tatami where you could smack your head on the stone instead of glancing off the nice clean walls.  Guess which head would win?   Murphy is out there, waiting for you.....  

    I wonder if their insurance company knows how extraordinarily dumb that is, or if the dojo operator has read the small print of their policy.   Suspect cultural clutter aside, the dojo looks small; why in the world would you stick something so potentially dangerous on the tatami?  

    Little Buddha would find himself elsewhere if it was my place.    

    Lance Gatling
    Tokyo

    BillC

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by BillC on Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:21 am

    NBK wrote:
    I wonder if their insurance company knows how extraordinarily dumb that is, or if the dojo operator has read the small print of their policy.   Suspect cultural clutter aside, the dojo looks small; why in the world would you stick something so potentially dangerous on the tatami?  

    Ah, you remembered. "Defenestration" is one of my favorite judo words. Embarassed 


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    NBK

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by NBK on Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:18 am

    BillC wrote:
    NBK wrote:
    I wonder if their insurance company knows how extraordinarily dumb that is, or if the dojo operator has read the small print of their policy.   Suspect cultural clutter aside, the dojo looks small; why in the world would you stick something so potentially dangerous on the tatami?  

    Ah, you remembered.  "Defenestration" is one of my favorite judo words. Embarassed 
    For me, I just mentally swap the stone Buddha for a fire extinguisher or a rock - would you or I put something that hard and projecting in the middle of the dojo? Duh.... It's a liability lawyer's dream.... Professional negligence, reckless endangerment, e pluribus unum.... I don't know, I don't run a dojo in the US, maybe that's normal.

    And I thought about defenestration - while looking out at the tops of those trees is a pretty view, I guess those windows are high enough to keep most folks inside the building.

    Nbk

    JudoSensei

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by JudoSensei on Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:59 am

    This video is not really representative of mainstream Kodokan judo. I think Mr Porter needs to make another visit to the dojo to refine some of these techniques, like osoto otoshi, because this is not the way he teaches it.

    tafftaz

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by tafftaz on Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:00 am

    No idea what I just watched. I do however have one question. Is the guy with the beard in the corner alive??

    Fritz

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by Fritz on Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:26 am

    tafftaz wrote:No idea what I just watched. I do however have one question. Is the guy with the beard in the corner alive??
    Exactly this question came in my mind too. If you carefully watch the video you can recognize some movement.
    At first view i though there's sitting a puppet / mascot in the corner...  Embarassed 


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    BillC

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by BillC on Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:40 am

    JudoSensei wrote:This video is not really representative of mainstream Kodokan judo. I think Mr Porter needs to make another visit to the dojo to refine some of these techniques, like osoto otoshi, because this is not the way he teaches it.

    That's probably true, Neil. But it occurred to me to also point out that throwing videos to this forum for the purpose of ridicule is in bad taste, if not bad judo. This is the behavior of sad otaku. We all have our Achilles heel.

    It was an occasional shortcoming of the old forum, I think this kind of thing probably limits the interest of many new judoka who might join this forum as well as some who were a constant presence on the old JF but who now have gone missing. There are plenty of interesting and informative videos on the internet, and not all of them are from movies 50 to 100 years old.

    The web site of the club in question took less than a minute to find, a private note of concern and a kind offer to explain instead of posting for the purpose of heckling may have been better. The association that Mr. Porter headed still exists, and it might be up to them to shepherd their flock. Though I am not a member of that group, I saw Gary this weekend, he is lately even more active and interested in judo education that before.

    It's too easy to pile on ... I did notice the windows and the lessons our club had to learn before covering ours ... I should have simply held back my typing. My apologies to the folks in Minnesota.


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    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

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    JudoSensei

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by JudoSensei on Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:14 am

    BillC wrote:
    JudoSensei wrote:This video is not really representative of mainstream Kodokan judo. I think Mr Porter needs to make another visit to the dojo to refine some of these techniques, like osoto otoshi, because this is not the way he teaches it.

    That's probably true, Neil.  But it occurred to me to also point out that throwing videos to this forum for the purpose of ridicule is in bad taste, if not bad judo.  This is the behavior of sad otaku.  We all have our Achilles heel.  

    It was an occasional shortcoming of the old forum, I think this kind of thing probably limits the interest of many new judoka who might join this forum as well as some who were a constant presence on the old JF but who now have gone missing.  There are plenty of interesting and informative videos on the internet, and not all of them are from movies 50 to 100 years old.

    The web site of the club in question took less than a minute to find, a private note of concern and a kind offer to explain instead of posting for the purpose of heckling may have been better.  The association that Mr. Porter headed still exists, and it might be up to them to shepherd their flock.  Though I am not a member of that group, I saw Gary this weekend, he is lately even more active and interested in judo education that before.

    It's too easy to pile on ... I did notice the windows and the lessons our club had to learn before covering ours ... I should have simply held back my typing.  My apologies to the folks in Minnesota.

    I agree with you Bill. Although I did not post this video, I made a rare exception to comment on it since some might think this is the standard way Mr. Porter teaches osoto otoshi as claimed in the video. I don't see ridicule or heckling in my comment, but your point is taken.

    BillC

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by BillC on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:52 am

    JudoSensei wrote:

    I agree with you Bill. Although I did not post this video, I made a rare exception to comment on it since some might think this is the standard way Mr. Porter teaches osoto otoshi as claimed in the video. I don't see ridicule or heckling in my comment, but your point is taken.

    No, sorry, I didn't think you were heckling, Neil. I was making a more general comment with which I suspected you would agree.

    BTW - Any chance you'll be coming down for the seminar in a couple weeks?

    Cheers.

    Bill


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    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

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    NBK

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by NBK on Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:27 am

    From what I gather from their website, it's a small dojo, and good on anyone who can make a go of a small dojo in a small town.

    A video is a tough thing - I usually hate mine, my performances never live up to my own standard. But videos can be a great training aid. I learned several things from it and appreciate the chance to see it.

    What's curious to me is that the text associated shows that the gent explaining and acting as tori is in fact testing for shodan. The offscreen voice is the senior sensei, but the text says:

    ".... demostrates the 6th Gokyo of Kodokan Judo as part of his promotional exam to Shodan. "

    Is there a judo association in the US that requires this for shodan, or would this be a local requirement? I expect near no one in Japan can perform this off the top of their head, so it's curious that someone not even yet shodan can do it at all. And why would you start with the most obscure portion of the Gokyo no Waza? Unless, of course, tori has already shown mastery of the 'other five' gokyo.... : )

    It seems that Westerners love to collect techniques - I am the same way. Attracting folks to a dojo, especially adults, is often not easy, and one way seems to be to provide a large number of techniques to engage the intellects of adults.

    In Japan it seems to be more about honing a handful of techniques; just recently I stopped by the Kodokan childrens' dojo where Mukai sensei and his assistants were drilling children. Not babysitting, not playtime, but drills, and tons of them. Some of the kids were amazing in their precision and speed, but the drills are, shall we say, not always intellectually stimulating. But Mukai sensei mixes it up, has a combination of detailed drill and changing speeds to keep most of the kids engaged and moving. How to strike the balance? in Japan this is why parents (well, mostly moms....) bring their kids - to learn discipline, traditional courtesy, attention to detail.

    A couple of the young girls practicing Nage no kata for their promotion spilled over to the dojo next door recently. They come up to about my sternum and are drilling kata guruma, totally fearless, critiquing each other and asking the sensei for pointers. As is they'd do better than most adults testing for shodan.

    Lance Gatling



    Ricebale

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by Ricebale on Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:50 am

    NBK wrote:In Japan it seems to be more about honing a handful of techniques

    This was one of the big things I noticed between Judo as it is practiced here in Australia and Judo as it is practiced elsewhere. Here most Sensei are insisting people learn some ridiculous amount of throws at each kyu belt level, then no one questions why people can't even apply those throws against foreigners.

    BillC

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by BillC on Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:58 am

    NBK wrote:From what I gather from their website, it's a small dojo, and good on anyone who can make a go of a small dojo in a small town.  

    A video is a tough thing - I usually hate mine, my performances never live up to my own standard.  But videos can be a great training aid.  I learned several things from it and appreciate the chance to see it.

    What's curious to me is that the text associated shows that the gent explaining and acting as tori is in fact testing for shodan.  The offscreen voice is the senior sensei, but the text says:

    ".... demostrates the 6th Gokyo of Kodokan Judo as part of his promotional exam to Shodan. "

    Is there a judo association in the US that requires this for shodan, or would this be a local requirement?  I expect near no one in Japan can perform this off the top of their head, so it's curious that someone not even yet shodan can do it at all.  And why would you start with the most obscure portion of the Gokyo no Waza?  Unless, of course, tori has already shown mastery of the 'other five' gokyo....    : )

    It seems that Westerners love to collect techniques - I am the same way.  Attracting folks to a dojo, especially adults, is often not easy, and one way seems to be to provide a large number of techniques to engage the intellects of adults.  

    In Japan it seems to be more about honing a handful of techniques; just recently I stopped by the Kodokan childrens' dojo where Mukai sensei and his assistants were drilling children.  Not babysitting, not playtime, but drills, and tons of them.  Some of the kids were amazing in their precision and speed, but the drills are, shall we say, not always intellectually stimulating.   But Mukai sensei mixes it up, has a combination of detailed drill and changing speeds to keep most of the kids engaged and moving.  How to strike the balance?  in Japan this is why parents (well, mostly moms....) bring their kids - to learn discipline, traditional courtesy, attention to detail.  

    A couple of the young girls practicing Nage no kata for their promotion spilled over to the dojo next door recently.   They come up to about my sternum and are drilling kata guruma, totally fearless, critiquing each other and asking the sensei for pointers.  As is they'd do better than most adults testing for shodan.  

    Lance Gatling



    See page 9 at http://www.usja-judo.org/forms/Docs/srpromo.pdf


    _________________
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    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
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    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

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    JudoSensei

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by JudoSensei on Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:08 pm

    [quote="BillC"]
    JudoSensei wrote:
    BTW - Any chance you'll be coming down for the seminar in a couple weeks?

    Cheers.

    Bill

    I wish I could, but it is unlikely due to family life. It's one of the best seminar opportunities I have seen in years. I hope people take advantage and attend. Good luck with it.
    Neil

    NBK

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by NBK on Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:36 pm

    See page 9 at http://www.usja-judo.org/forms/Docs/srpromo.pdf
    Do I read that correctly?   A shodan / 1 dan is supposed to demo 30 techniques?  Or expected to demo them all and pass 30??

    I don't get the second line, but now I'm starting to understand why everyone from the US wants more and more techniques.

    Thanks.... I think....

    BillC

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by BillC on Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:23 pm

    NBK wrote:
    Do I read that correctly?   A shodan / 1 dan is supposed to demo 30 techniques?  Or expected to demo them all and pass 30??

    I don't get the second line, but now I'm starting to understand why everyone from the US wants more and more techniques.

    Thanks.... I think....

    Oh yeah.  You really did not know this?

    Since the topic has changed, yes, you read it correctly either way.  Though I was not a member of this organization, I do recall having to identify by demonstration the entire gokyo no waza for shodan (left and right), in addition to a vocabulary test and the entire nagenokata ... uke and tori.  Most of what is noted for newaza as well.  

    My examiners' test was probably composed from this list or its predecessor.  It's still up in the closet some place ... probably on mimeograph.

    In retrospect, I was certainly not even barely competent at more than a few, and some of what I was taught was certainly mis-named and misunderstood.  But then again, it was a rough sketch to which I continue to add detail.

    P.S. - my buddy Huizingh whom you've met by email was my training and test partner.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    NBK

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by NBK on Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:43 am

    BillC wrote:
    NBK wrote:
    Do I read that correctly?   A shodan / 1 dan is supposed to demo 30 techniques?  Or expected to demo them all and pass 30??

    I don't get the second line, but now I'm starting to understand why everyone from the US wants more and more techniques.

    Thanks.... I think....

    Oh yeah.  You really did not know this?

    Since the topic has changed, yes, you read it correctly either way.  Though I was not a member of this organization, I do recall having to identify by demonstration the entire gokyo no waza for shodan (left and right), in addition to a vocabulary test and the entire nagenokata ... uke and tori.  Most of what is noted for newaza as well.  

    My examiners' test was probably composed from this list or its predecessor.  It's still up in the closet some place ... probably on mimeograph.

    In retrospect, I was certainly not even barely competent at more than a few, and some of what I was taught was certainly mis-named and misunderstood.  But then again, it was a rough sketch to which I continue to add detail.

    P.S. - my buddy Huizingh whom you've met by email was my training and test partner.
    Your shodan test was probably on a stone tablet.  What a Face My condolences to Huizingh - my email impression was a more intelligent man.

    No, I can see demoing throws but the throws in question are pretty obscure for anyone, particularly a shodan - obscure enough to be left out of the Gokyo no Waza, and I'd wonder how many 6 dans in Japan know them all. I'd be happy to have just a half dozen good throws, although I've never bothered to count how many I know.

    You may recall I know near zero about judo outside of Japan; I started here, all my rank is Japanese. And in Japan you need to know 9 throws for shodan - Te-waza (hand techniques), Koshi-waza (hip techniques), Ashi-waza (foot techniques), 3 waza each, 3/5 of Nage no Kata. The remainder come at 2 dan. But you must demonstrate that you understand and can perform the riai, which for most shodans is hard for those 9, much less 30 or 40.

    NBK

    BillC

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by BillC on Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:18 am

    NBK wrote:
    Your shodan test was probably on a stone tablet.   What a Face My condolences to Huizingh - my email impression was a more intelligent man.    

    No, I can see demoing throws but the throws in question are pretty obscure for anyone, particularly a shodan - obscure enough to be left out of the Gokyo no Waza, and I'd wonder how many 6 dans in Japan know them all.  I'd be happy to have just a half dozen good throws, although I've never bothered to count how many I know.  

    You may recall I know near zero about judo outside of Japan; I started here, all my rank is Japanese.  And in Japan you need to know 9 throws for shodan - Te-waza (hand techniques), Koshi-waza (hip techniques), Ashi-waza (foot techniques), 3 waza each, 3/5 of Nage no Kata.  The remainder come at 2 dan.  But you must demonstrate that you understand and can perform the riai, which for most shodans is hard for those 9, much less 30 or 40.  

    NBK

    Oh come on, we had copper, not stone. Though bronze would have to wait until I tested for nidan.

    Can't say that I, or my examiners, understood how all the nagewaza in the test went together, but I think it was at least basically correct in a book sense for most. Understanding with the body, different story. But as you say not many people anywhere do. Because we had a variety of skilled resources among our sensei, we were probably doing an OK job for most, especially the more common and basic techniques. I recall that Huizingh and I had to explain and demonstrate a common throw ten different ways in my case osotogari. We really had to be able to explain what we were doing. Not sure that I could do that today which presents a common problem.

    I can see that this system suffers from dilution, the physical distances involved in the US, and the passage of time ... with people teaching either what they do not remember well or what they never quite learned in the first place (let's be gentle about the liberal use of exceptions in processing promotions and certifying examiners ... that's another topic).

    In an effort to use modern tools Hal Sharp was out pushing a new proposal a few years back ... of using Daigo-sensei's book as the standard for shared learning. His idea was that people would video themselves first explaining the technique paraphrasing the book, and then performing the technique in question. If someone was physically unable to perform, they would explain to a student and post that. Comments, questions and suggestions in response could be made long distance via private YouTube. The project seems to have gone nowhere so far. I am not a member, so I can't fully comment from the outside.

    Of course the third dimension of the proper "feel" would still be missing, but it's better than people trying to mimic the poses they see on Bill Nauta's still-excellent poster. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2d5o8d1kitM So many judoka who are left to looking at the finger because the moon is simply not visible from where they are.

    So yeah ... Shodan for my somewhat typical American club at that time was a BFD ... it required significantly more study than in your club ... and from what I have read on this forum ... it still does in a lot of places ... note the surprise at the two year shodan in another thread.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

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