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    Habukareta-waza

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    Jonesy

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by Jonesy on Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:25 am

    JudoSensei wrote:This video is not really representative of mainstream Kodokan judo. I think Mr Porter needs to make another visit to the dojo to refine some of these techniques, like osoto otoshi, because this is not the way he teaches it.
    Sadly that will not be possible. Philip Porter-sensei died in August 2011.

    NBK

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by NBK on Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:20 pm

    BillC wrote:.... I recall that Huizingh and I had to explain and demonstrate a common throw ten different ways in my case osotogari.  We really had to be able to explain what we were doing.  Not sure that I could do that today which presents a common problem.....

    I can understand your challenge. There aren't ten meaningful variations on osoto-gari, then, now, and in the future.

    Much less for a shodan.

    Lance Gatling

    BillC

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by BillC on Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:06 am

    NBK wrote:
    BillC wrote:.... I recall that Huizingh and I had to explain and demonstrate a common throw ten different ways in my case osotogari.  We really had to be able to explain what we were doing.  Not sure that I could do that today which presents a common problem.....

    I can understand your challenge.  There aren't ten meaningful variations on osoto-gari, then, now, and in the future.  

    Much less for a shodan.

    Lance Gatling

    Actually ... there probably are.  I thought about it after writing, and easily got to six ... so ten is not a stretch.  Meaningful is probably a matter of opinion.  Two shodan examiners including my sensei are long dead, two are retired and have moved on (after bitter experience with USA Judo).  The intent was probably to see if the student could get mentally beyond the static, upright, pull-left-step-left, swing right leg approach a beginner would demonstrate.  Daigo-sensei's book list four, plus a fifth that simply notes that there are many in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu that resemble osotogari.  Add a couple that take advantage of European-style "shaping" and I think you get there very quickly.

    Because ... though lip service was paid to the idea that shodan was just that ... the beginning grade ... in fact much more was expected.  My examiners were like a pregnant woman, someone poked fun and they took it seriously.  Some people like requirements, and rules, and making people follow them.

    I'm not going to defend the testing system in the US.  My current club does not test except to require kata for dan grades according to the requirements of our national organization.  Seems to work out fine.

    Still, it stands in stark contrast with the current situation where the rank requirements are meaningless ... all three major national organizations having a gap between what they put on paper and what they actually require.  So it's no surprise to me that there are dan grades who have a http://judoinfo.com/images/nauta/seoitosh.gif understanding of many, many different techniques ... and some high dan grades who can't identify ten throws ... much less ten variations of one throw.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    Hanon

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by Hanon on Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:46 am

    NBK wrote:
    BillC wrote:.... I recall that Huizingh and I had to explain and demonstrate a common throw ten different ways in my case osotogari.  We really had to be able to explain what we were doing.  Not sure that I could do that today which presents a common problem.....

    .........................  There aren't ten meaningful variations on osoto-gari, then, now, and in the future.  


    Lance Gatling

    Care to make a wager on that?  affraid   O soto gari is an incredibly versatile throw and was my tokui waza joint with uchi mata and okuri ashi barai for well over 40 years.

    Mike Twisted Evil


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    NBK

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by NBK on Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:49 pm

    BillC wrote:
    NBK wrote:
    I can understand your challenge.  There aren't ten meaningful variations on osoto-gari, then, now, and in the future.  

    Much less for a shodan.

    Lance Gatling

    Actually ... there probably are.  I thought about it after writing, and easily got to six ... so ten is not a stretch.  Meaningful is probably a matter of opinion.  。。。I'm not going to defend the testing system in the US.  My current club does not test except to require kata for dan grades according to the requirements of our national organization.  Seems to work out fine.

    Still, it stands in stark contrast with the current situation where the rank requirements are meaningless ... all three major national organizations having a gap between what they put on paper and what they actually require.  So it's no surprise to me that there are dan grades who have a http://judoinfo.com/images/nauta/seoitosh.gif understanding of many, many different techniques ... and some high dan grades who can't identify ten throws ... much less ten variations of one throw.
    I can imagine that those requirements are ignored. They don't make much sense to me.

    Hanon wrote:
    NBK wrote:
    .........................  There aren't ten meaningful variations on osoto-gari, then, now, and in the future.  
    Lance Gatling

    Care to make a wager on that?  affraid   O soto gari is an incredibly versatile throw and was my tokui waza joint with uchi mata and okuri ashi barai for well over 40 years.

    Mike Twisted Evil
    Bet away - the versatility of the throw and your extended use of it are not in question.

    Let me rephrase my point.

    I don't think there are ten variations of osoto gari that are significant to a shodan.

    To me, having tried for years to master a pretty simple musical instrument, such a testing regime for a shodan is like asking a student pianist who might produce a decent eight-note scale to reproduce Bach's Aria and all 30 Goldberg Variations - not really indicative of a beginners skill level, probably counterproductive to learning the basics, and probably painful to the examiners to see or hear.

    Questionable pedology, surely questionable results. No wonder to me the standards are ignored.

    NBK

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:21 pm


    Now that Bach has entered the scene ...




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    BillC

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by BillC on Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:35 am

    NBK wrote:
    I don't think there are ten variations of osoto gari that are significant to a shodan.

    To me, having tried for years to master a pretty simple musical instrument, such a testing regime for a shodan is like asking a student pianist who might produce a decent eight-note scale to reproduce Bach's Aria and all 30 Goldberg Variations - not really indicative of a beginners skill level, probably counterproductive to learning the basics, and probably painful to the examiners to see or hear.    

    Questionable pedology, surely questionable results.  No wonder to me the standards are ignored.

    NBK

    Yeah, I generally agree with you, please don't put me in the position of justifying someone's rank system and other people's amplification and interpretation.  The difference I think you miss by comparison with your system ... and I have been privileged to see first hand at least one of your students progress from walking in the door to shodan ... is the time scale involved.

    After studying five to seven years ... which I think was typical at that time ... students are hardly beginners any more.   Yes, standards are ignored by some, but by others they are adhered to with religious intensity and even added to.  I'll tell you about it some time, it was not all bad.

    Meantime, I am still going to argue with you.  Even in this world of weight divisions, a shodan should be able to show different approaches ... for example ... a student their size and weight clamped shoulder to shoulder driving into the "Gatling ellipse" and reaping the full body, versus a taller and heavier partner where it would be wiser to pin the arm of the fumbling giant to his own heel and cut the weighted leg.  He or she might also want to show how to off balance with a ipponseoinage attack and execute with the same lift and drop to the shoulder, or how to pull the far arm in kenka yotsu and reach across the body to hook behind the knee and either draw uke in or to hop behind.  A shodan should probably have seen and started practicing to defend against the "furiage" type attack.  The candidate's sensei may have shown him his own personal henka to pass to succeeding gnerations ... for example one that looks and feels more like ouchigari but to the outside of the leg in aiyotsu.  The shodan candidate should probably be able to attack with basic waza moving in the four directions, for example should be able in concept to understand the "ole!" method of the clothesline osotogari.  And then there is the half-assed, kind walk-throughs that might be best applied when one is afraid they are going to break Tenkai Miki into tiny little Buddhist pieces if he falls on that beautifully polished and handsome head.  That's ten.  

    None of this perfectly mind you, but in my humble opinion the shodan candidate is by definition moving from 1-2-3 judo to the wider world and should show awareness that it exists.

    Edit: By the time sandan came around, my sensei had his own dojo and my "test" consisted of my sensei handing me a certificate and a rank patch saying "here, congratulations." When I objected and asked about a test, his face lost its usual joviality and I was told "what do you think I have been doing sitting here watching and correcting you these past years?" Which of course was wise, and even more correct than all the stupid tests. If it were up to me standards would be for teachers and "tests" unnecessary.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    DougNZ

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    Join date : 2013-01-28

    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by DougNZ on Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:34 am

    BillC wrote:
    Edit:  By the time sandan came around, my sensei had his own dojo and my "test" consisted of my sensei handing me a certificate and a rank patch saying "here, congratulations."  When I objected and asked about a test, his face lost its usual joviality and I was told "what do you think I have been doing sitting here watching and correcting you these past years?"  Which of course was wise, and even more correct than all the stupid tests.  If it were up to me standards would be for teachers and "tests" unnecessary.

    I am butting in here ... but am glad you pointed this out. This is how we moved to grading (in ju-jitsu) about 15 years ago. It takes the pressure off the student to 'perform' in a grading and puts it on to the teacher to teach throughout the year (and by teach, I mean develop each student individually). I think back to all those gradings where yudansha sat behind a little table at the head of the mat and demanded beatings and push-ups and endurance and being thrown on wooden floors and goodness knows what else ... most of which has nothing to do with ju-jitsu or real fighting, and which had everything to do with perpetuating recent, invented traditions and stroking the ego of the examiners. The fact is, most experienced sensei can judge a student's ability fairly quickly by watching a few minutes of randori and asking a couple of questions. If that student is their own, then they should know that student's strengths and weaknesses intimately ... as Bill's sensei clearly did of Bill.

    Regarding standards for teachers, our federation strongly recommends that teachers know basic physiology and psychology, first aid, communication, teaching methods, administration and dojo management, risk management, and relevant legal issues. It provides courses and qualifications for successful candidates but many sensei refuse to attempt the courses. Not surprisingly, many of the exercises and movements they show in seminars are very outdated and have a high risk of injuring participants. I even attended a seminar by a Japanese 'celebrity' holding no less than 75 dan ranks who began with rapid-fire ballistic and forced stretching. What can you do? What can you say?  Rolling Eyes 

    NBK

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by NBK on Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:35 am

    BillC wrote:
    NBK wrote:
    I don't think there are ten variations of osoto gari that are significant to a shodan.

    To me, having tried for years to master a pretty simple musical instrument, such a testing regime for a shodan is like asking a student pianist who might produce a decent eight-note scale to reproduce Bach's Aria and all 30 Goldberg Variations - not really indicative of a beginners skill level, probably counterproductive to learning the basics, and probably painful to the examiners to see or hear.    

    Questionable pedology, surely questionable results.  No wonder to me the standards are ignored.

    NBK

    Yeah, I generally agree with you, please don't put me in the position of justifying someone's rank system and other people's amplification and interpretation.  The difference I think you miss by comparison with your system ... and I have been privileged to see first hand at least one of your students progress from walking in the door to shodan ... is the time scale involved.

    After studying five to seven years ... which I think was typical at that time ... students are hardly beginners any more.   Yes, standards are ignored by some, but by others they are adhered to with religious intensity and even added to.  I'll tell you about it some time, it was not all bad.

    Meantime, I am still going to argue with you.  Even in this world of weight divisions, a shodan should be able to show different approaches ... for example ... a student their size and weight clamped shoulder to shoulder driving into the "Gatling ellipse" and reaping the full body, versus a taller and heavier partner where it would be wiser to pin the arm of the fumbling giant to his own heel and cut the weighted leg.  He or she might also want to show how to off balance with a ipponseoinage attack and execute with the same lift and drop to the shoulder, or how to pull the far arm in kenka yotsu and reach across the body to hook behind the knee and either draw uke in or to hop behind.  A shodan should probably have seen and started practicing to defend against the "furiage" type attack.  The candidate's sensei may have shown him his own personal henka to pass to succeeding gnerations ... for example one that looks and feels more like ouchigari but to the outside of the leg in aiyotsu.  The shodan candidate should probably be able to attack with basic waza moving in the four directions, for example should be able in concept to understand the "ole!" method of the clothesline osotogari.  And then there is the half-assed, kind walk-throughs that might be best applied when one is afraid they are going to break Tenkai Miki into tiny little Buddhist pieces if he falls on that beautifully polished and handsome head.  That's ten.  

    None of this perfectly mind you, but in my humble opinion the shodan candidate is by definition moving from 1-2-3 judo to the wider world and should show awareness that it exists.

    Edit:  By the time sandan came around, my sensei had his own dojo and my "test" consisted of my sensei handing me a certificate and a rank patch saying "here, congratulations."  When I objected and asked about a test, his face lost its usual joviality and I was told "what do you think I have been doing sitting here watching and correcting you these past years?"  Which of course was wise, and even more correct than all the stupid tests.  If it were up to me standards would be for teachers and "tests" unnecessary.
    Your definition and expectations greatly exceed that of Japanese definitions of the level of shodan from what I understand. Very different expectations and time scales.

    I wonder if this approach stems back to the postwar origins of US judo - many of the graduates of the Strategic Air Command combatives course had a firehose of techniques they were supposed to 'master' and take with them. Typical military training - cram in a ton of elements, drill them enough to pass a final test, but with the expectation that the follow on posting would afford actual use or continued training, on the job reinforcement, and advanced mastery.

    NBK

    BillC

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    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by BillC on Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:24 pm

    NBK wrote:
    I wonder if this approach stems back to the postwar origins of US judo - many of the graduates of the Strategic Air Command combatives course had a firehose of techniques they were supposed to 'master' and take with them.  Typical military training - cram in a ton of elements, drill them enough to pass a final test, but with the expectation that the follow on posting would afford actual use or continued training, on the job reinforcement, and advanced mastery.  

    That is interesting speculation, and given the origins of this particular organization makes sense ... it in fact started out as the Armed Forces Judo Association.  There is also a tradition of it being very, very difficult to advance in rank because of social peculiarities in a nearly closed Japanese-American community ... plenty has been written about that.  The two together add up to more than their sum in terms of setting the bar.

    Edit:  I thought twice about expressing things this way ... but decided to to call a spade a spade ... two examples of this oddness are "being more Japanese than the Japanese" with the decorations, the swords, the meditation, the buddhas, etc. ... and another unexpressed game of "staying one up on the hakujin."  Both have tended to make shodan testing about more than shodan level skill.

    Edit 2:  I have a nice guy in our club trying to come back to judo after a scary deployment in a sandy place and subsequent shoulder surgery at Navy Hospital who wants to wear a brown belt instead of the kuro obi he EARNED in Iwakuni.  He says he "does not deserve it" compared to the others in the club.

    If we hop over the Davaro's thread, this difficulty in obtaining shodan rank relative to the Japanese expectation indeed seems to have occurred in other places as well ... 30 years to shodan and failing a test?


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    BillC

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    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Vista, California

    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by BillC on Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:01 pm

    BillC wrote: Meaningful is probably a matter of opinion.  。。。I'm not going to defend the testing system in the US.  My current club does not test except to require kata for dan grades according to the requirements of our national organization.  Seems to work out fine.
    NBK wrote:
    I can imagine that those requirements are ignored.  They don't make much sense to me.  

    To be clear there are three national organizations in the US ... the USJA, the USJF and USA Judo. Each has promotion guidelines but how each evaluates and implements those guidelines is different, and often how that is interpreted among clubs varies wildly.

    In the case of my shodan test, a caring, warm yet hyper-vigilant interpretation of the USJA test (even though I was at the time a USJI member being promoted within the USJI).

    In the case of my current club, the USJF published guidelines, but there is no test, just a careful completion of the promotion form. http://www.usjf.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Form20-PromotionFormFields120531.pdf Our kancho is the president of the yudanshakai, and though we have always honored kata training in the breach ... such as the acceptance of attending a kata clinic as fullfilling the requirement for the kata ... he is now starting to insist on some real knowledge and certification ... thus Satoh-sensei BTW.

    Then there is the case of one of our young members, a strong judoka and a good kid to be sure, but his promotion to sandan had to do with paying the fee and taking advantage of the special promotion price by USA Judo ... bypassing our kancho ... and any kata requirement... which will not be forgotten. Ever.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    NBK

    Posts : 1060
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Habukareta-waza

    Post by NBK on Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:00 pm

    BillC wrote:
    BillC wrote: Meaningful is probably a matter of opinion.  。。。I'm not going to defend the testing system in the US.  My current club does not test except to require kata for dan grades according to the requirements of our national organization.  Seems to work out fine.
    NBK wrote:
    I can imagine that those requirements are ignored.  They don't make much sense to me.  

    To be clear there are three national organizations in the US ... the USJA, the USJF and USA Judo.  Each has promotion guidelines but how each evaluates and implements those guidelines is different, and often how that is interpreted among clubs varies wildly.

    In the case of my shodan test, a caring, warm yet hyper-vigilant interpretation of the USJA test (even though I was at the time a USJI member being promoted within the USJI).

    In the case of my current club, the USJF published guidelines, but there is no test, just a careful completion of the promotion form.  http://www.usjf.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Form20-PromotionFormFields120531.pdf Our kancho is the president of the yudanshakai, and though we have always honored kata training in the breach ... such as the acceptance of attending a kata clinic as fullfilling the requirement for the kata ... he is now starting to insist on some real knowledge and certification ... thus Satoh-sensei BTW.

    Then there is the case of one of our young members, a strong judoka and a good kid to be sure, but his promotion to sandan had to do with paying the fee and taking advantage of the special promotion price by USA Judo ... bypassing our kancho ... and any kata requirement... which will not be forgotten.  Ever.
    This is the part that I believe would have Kano shihan beside himself. He often wrote of how to divide your time training judo, but near zero kata was never part of the solution.

    This month I watched a 'senior judoka' walking through Nage no Kata with an aspirant to take the shodan test. The senior didn't have the basic movements down, and therefore couldn't meaningfully (as in: impart understanding) instruct his junior. He didn't show that he understand the riai of each move, and didn't have enough skill himself to teach the mechanics of the throws, so it was a mess for both.

    This was exactly the time for the mechanics that CK wrote that Kotani sensei didn't demonstrate. Kotani sensei was moving with more fluidity and apparent mastery of the riai of each throw, so he could round corners, step in ayumi ashi, etc., and still demonstrate the riai of each throw. Some people can learn from such advanced examples, but usually only someone who has mastered the basics already.

    Most of us mere mortals can't, it seems, ergo the 1 2 3 4 approach of the basics. And if you really get one, that understanding helps to understand other techniques, in my experience.

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