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    Strength and Grip Training for Judo

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    accident_prone

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    Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by accident_prone on Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:34 am

    i'm interested in hearing how you all go about training for both general strength and grip strength *outside* of judo practice.

    i used to do a lot of bodyweight exercises, but in the last few months have focused more on trying to get results through weight lifting (specifically through a 3x5 program of bench, squat and deadlifts) and have been getting great results in that not only have i made big gains in the amount i can lift, but also my training partners are commenting that i seem a lot stronger and am harder to deal with.

    i feel like i have a decent grip for my size (i'm 5'6" and 145lbs so not a big guy by any means) and most people my size have a lot of trouble breaking my grips, although bigger guys seem to have no problem breaking them. however, i got to the point with deadlifts where my grip was giving out, and i was advised to use lifting straps for deadlifts and to train my grip with other methods. this seems to have been great advice, because while i was stalling out on deadlift progress, once i started using straps i was able make big gains in my deadlifts, and give my back and legs a proper workout.

    i was going to try doing gi pullups, but i can't even do one (grip fails) so i have started on the captains of crush gripper series (sport model, i know it's weak) and a wrist roller. i am taking the same 3x5 approach to these exercises and have heard that they can produce great results. by this i mean that i work my way up to being able to do 3 sets of 5, get used to that and then increase the weight or resistance. i am also considering getting a few more grip tools, to make sure i am working all elements of my hands.

    do any of you have experience with the other tools offered by ironmind (the guys behind the captains of crush grippers?)
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    heikojr

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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by heikojr on Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:34 am

    Accident prone,

    It might be tough, but keep up at those gi pull ups! I am about the same size and age as you. When i started gi pull ups i had issues, too. Now i can do 25 straight, or 3 sets of 10 depending on how i'm training. I even do leg lifts as i pull up.

    Where do you train in NYC?

    heikojr
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    Stacey

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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by Stacey on Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:30 am

    you might also want to throw in a few trips up and down the climbing wall, assuming your gym has one. Great for balance, flexibility and grips.

    Agree with Heiko - keep on attempting the gi pull-ups. Remember, you can start easier with supported pull-ups until your grip improves. You can also try dead hangs until your grip gives out. Both will improve your grip strength until you can start doing pull-ups.

    But, if you have a climbing wall, give it a try. When I don't have access, I'll use a rowing machine. Instead of putting the bar square in the palm of my hands, I'll put it at my fingertips, and use my fingertips for pull, varying the position of my hands in relation to the bar every so often (palms up, palms down, bar parallel to the ground, bar perpendicular to the ground, etc). With the rowing machine, I get a fairly dynamic full body cardio workout as well, so it's win/win.
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    heikojr

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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by heikojr on Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:38 am

    Stacey wrote: You can also try dead hangs until your grip gives out.

    Yes! I forgot to say that i started just dead hanging then when i could get one pull up i would hang from the chin up position as long as i could! Just kept working at it...



    heikojr
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    nomoremondays

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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by nomoremondays on Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:59 am

    I like 'farmers walk' for grip work. Either with dumb bells or kettle bells(only in beginning stages). Keeping a good posture is important here as with most weighted workouts.
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    OldeEnglishD

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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by OldeEnglishD on Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:29 am

    Silly question, but what is a gi pull-up?Embarassed


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    Stacey

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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by Stacey on Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:42 am

    OldeEnglishD wrote:Silly question, but what is a gi pull-up?Embarassed

    take the sleeves off an old gi - one that can't work in judo anymore. Tie those sleeves to the pull-up bar. Grab the sleeves attached to the pull up bar. Pull up, count one, let yourself down to dangle from the gi sleeves, pull up, count "2". Repeat until you can't pull up again.

    Alternatively, if you can remove the bar, you can slide the bar through the sleeves, reattach the bar, and you'll have more floor clearance that way, if it's a concern. Grab only gi - no bar, and pull.
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    OldeEnglishD

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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by OldeEnglishD on Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:44 am

    Stacey wrote:
    OldeEnglishD wrote:Silly question, but what is a gi pull-up?Embarassed

    take the sleeves off an old gi - one that can't work in judo anymore. Tie those sleeves to the pull-up bar. Grab the sleeves attached to the pull up bar. Pull up, count one, let yourself down to dangle from the gi sleeves, pull up, count "2". Repeat until you can't pull up again.

    Alternatively, if you can remove the bar, you can slide the bar through the sleeves, reattach the bar, and you'll have more floor clearance that way, if it's a concern. Grab only gi - no bar, and pull.

    Thanks Stacey! Sounds like an awesome way to build grip strength, I will have to try it.


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    accident_prone

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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by accident_prone on Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:53 pm

    thanks for the suggestions, guys. i'll keep at the gi pullups, there's not climbing wall at my gym, but there is an assisted pull up machine, which i could use, if i don't mind being the guy who brings his judogi to the gym.

    heikojr, i'm at kokushi budo institute.
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    accident_prone

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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by accident_prone on Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:21 am

    any of you try these out? http://www.ironmind-store.com/Strong-and-Healthy-Hands-Kit-EGG-Bands/productinfo/1428-EB/

    i was considering adding them to my grip workouts
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    Stacey

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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by Stacey on Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:27 am

    accident_prone wrote:any of you try these out? http://www.ironmind-store.com/Strong-and-Healthy-Hands-Kit-EGG-Bands/productinfo/1428-EB/

    i was considering adding them to my grip workouts

    Rubber bands and racket balls? Back 30 years ago, when I got out of my cast because of my thumb (lost a joint in my thumb - 6 months in a cast, pins, the works) I was told to use rubber bands and racket balls. Put a hole in the racket ball to make it easier to squeeze. You can always add more rubber bands to increase resistance. That was my pt to bring my hand and forearm back from atrophy. Add in knitting for the dexterity, and I was able to shuffle a deck of cards in no time (seriously, the most problematic part of being in a cast on my off hand that long was the inability to figure out a decent way to shuffle a deck of cards).
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    ThePieman

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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by ThePieman on Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:43 am

    Another good one if you have both a pull up bar and resistance bands is to run the bands through the arms of your gi jacket and tie them around your pull up bar (without you in it!).

    Now you have an opponent hanging from your pull up bar who is willing to have you uchi komi with him/her all night long! Twisted Evil
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    Okazi

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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by Okazi on Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:35 am

    The following is taken from an interview with Tudor Bampa (TB), a guy who knows a thing or two about sport specific training. Enjoy:

    T: Okay, what's another major mistake you see?

    TB: The fallacy of Olympic weightlifting exercises! There are several strength coaches with Olympic lifting backgrounds. Unfortunately for them, they can't adjust their knowledge to the needs of strength training for sports. Strength training programs for sports must recognize that almost each sport involves different and specific muscle groups. These muscles are called "prime movers" or the muscles performing the actual technical moves. Therefore, strength training exercises have to target the prime movers. The Olympic lifting exercises are rigidly targeting only certain muscle groups, often not very important for many sports.

    T: Give us an example of what you mean.

    TB: Take judo for instance. Once I listened to a presentation regarding strength training for judo. The speaker was your typical Olympic lifting coach. He went over snatches and the clean and jerk! When the organizers asked my opinion, I simply said that the whole idea is wrong because judo involves primarily the flexor muscles of the hips, abdominals, and trunk, not the extensors normally targeted by Olympic lifting moves. The lifting coach became very upset when he heard me say this and left the room!

    The exact same thing happened with swimming. An Olympic lifting coach once again suggested (what else?) the clean and jerk and the snatch. I pointed out that he was really missing the actual prime movers used in swimming, the arms flexors. The coach's exercises were targeting exactly the opposite group of muscles, the extensors. How difficult is to understand such a basic concept in sports training? Personally I'd use power cleans only for few sports such as linebackers in football and Greco-roman wrestling. I'd use clean and jerks for basketball players, performed with a medicine ball or a power ball.

    This leads to another problem. The Olympic lifting coaches are using their own periodization, specific to Olympic lifting. Well, how much common sense does one need to have in order to understand that the Olympic lifting coaches have to adapt their training methodology to the periodization of that particular sport and not the other way around?

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    The full interview can be found here:

    http://www.t-nation.com/article/features/a_talk_with_tudor_bompa
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:06 am

    Okazi wrote:The following is taken from an interview with Tudor Bampa (TB), a guy who knows a thing or two about sport specific training. Enjoy:

    T: Okay, what's another major mistake you see?

    TB: The fallacy of Olympic weightlifting exercises! There are several strength coaches with Olympic lifting backgrounds. Unfortunately for them, they can't adjust their knowledge to the needs of strength training for sports. Strength training programs for sports must recognize that almost each sport involves different and specific muscle groups. These muscles are called "prime movers" or the muscles performing the actual technical moves. Therefore, strength training exercises have to target the prime movers. The Olympic lifting exercises are rigidly targeting only certain muscle groups, often not very important for many sports.

    T: Give us an example of what you mean.

    TB: Take judo for instance. Once I listened to a presentation regarding strength training for judo. The speaker was your typical Olympic lifting coach. He went over snatches and the clean and jerk! When the organizers asked my opinion, I simply said that the whole idea is wrong because judo involves primarily the flexor muscles of the hips, abdominals, and trunk, not the extensors normally targeted by Olympic lifting moves. The lifting coach became very upset when he heard me say this and left the room!

    The exact same thing happened with swimming. An Olympic lifting coach once again suggested (what else?) the clean and jerk and the snatch. I pointed out that he was really missing the actual prime movers used in swimming, the arms flexors. The coach's exercises were targeting exactly the opposite group of muscles, the extensors. How difficult is to understand such a basic concept in sports training? Personally I'd use power cleans only for few sports such as linebackers in football and Greco-roman wrestling. I'd use clean and jerks for basketball players, performed with a medicine ball or a power ball.

    This leads to another problem. The Olympic lifting coaches are using their own periodization, specific to Olympic lifting. Well, how much common sense does one need to have in order to understand that the Olympic lifting coaches have to adapt their training methodology to the periodization of that particular sport and not the other way around?

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    The full interview can be found here:

    http://www.t-nation.com/article/features/a_talk_with_tudor_bompa

    I agree with Professor-emeritus Bompa about frequent errors in strength training programs for jûdô, but I would argue that his argument "because judo involves primarily the flexor muscles of the hips,
    abdominals, and trunk, not the extensors normally targeted by Olympic lifting moves." is an oversimplification. It depends on how one reads the statement. If it is read that too much emphasis is put on extensors, then yes, that is correct. It is read that more emphasis should be put also on flexors, then yes, that is correct. If, however, it is read in a sense that one should not be training extensors to a great extent, then no, I don't think that is correct.

    In most jûdô throws (though not all) flexors are more important during tsukuri and kuzushi, but ... often times during the kake the domination of flexors transfers to a dominance of extensors. Take for example, tai-otoshi, to pull the opponent out of balance, yes, flexors, but as the kake starts the tsurite transfers (usually) largely into a pushing action, unless the tai-otoshi is performed in such a way that the opponent is literally 'pulled' over the leg. There is another instance where if one interprets Professor Bompa's suggestion in the third way I proposed, leads to problems, namely if one exerts a blocking action, which at high level is at least as important as attacking, especially when your opponent is physically stronger than you. This is so both in newaza (resisting armbars) as in tachi-waza (many bôgyô actions). So, rather than understanding Professor Bompa's suggestion as rejecting extensor training and replacing it by flexor training, I prefer to understand it as pointing out the importance of balancing the training of both extensors and flexors so that agonists and antagonists are both trained to great extent.


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    Okazi

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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by Okazi on Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:36 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:I prefer to understand it as pointing out the importance of balancing the training of both extensors and flexors so that agonists and antagonists are both trained to great extent.

    A balanced (agonist/antagonist) and focused approach (hip, core, trunk) to training is what I got out of the interview. Also, being excused from the tedious training of arms and calves...Thanks for your input.


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    accident_prone

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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by accident_prone on Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:40 am

    i don't know about the clean & jerk, & snatch, but doing squats, deadlifts and dumbbell bench has caused my training partners to comment on my strength in class. i do know that my original question did not ask for a critique of olympic lifts, but instead asked for people to talk about their strength and grip training outside of judo, and specifically if anyone had experience with some specific tools. not sure what led to the rant about olympic lifts, not so interested in hearing people rant about stuff they *don't* like.

    i'm working with the gripper and wrist roller now, will report if i get any results worth talking about.
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    Okazi

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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by Okazi on Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:33 am

    accident_prone wrote:i don't know about the clean & jerk, & snatch, but doing squats, deadlifts and dumbbell bench has caused my training partners to comment on my strength in class. i do know that my original question did not ask for a critique of olympic lifts, but instead asked for people to talk about their strength and grip training outside of judo, and specifically if anyone had experience with some specific tools. not sure what led to the rant about olympic lifts, not so interested in hearing people rant about stuff they *don't* like.

    i'm working with the gripper and wrist roller now, will report if i get any results worth talking about.

    You solicited advice on strength and grip training outside of judo...you received a response which included an interview with a man commonly referred to as "the father of periodization". Like any good father he wants his children to grow and prosper, so he sits them down and spells it out for them in plain english (even though english isn't father's mother tongue):

    1) Sports require power, quickness, and fast application of force. Bodybuilding methods do not result in increasing power. On the contrary, bodybuilding methods make the athletes much slower. And this is a no-no in most of the sports that require quickness and acceleration in force application.

    2) Strength training programs for sports must recognize that almost each sport involves different and specific muscle groups. These muscles are called "prime movers" or the muscles performing the actual technical moves. Therefore, strength training exercises have to target the prime movers. The Olympic lifting exercises are rigidly targeting only certain muscle groups, often not very important for many sports.

    3) Many athletes and coaches use the same type of strength training, irrespective of the physiological requirements their respective sports require. Each sport has its specific physiological profile. The sports where the alactic energy system is dominant are basically sports where speed and power are necessary to achieve high results [jumping and throwing events in track and field, linebackers, baseball, sprinting, etc.]

    4) Most sports performed on the ground [all team sports, track, martial arts, etc.] use knee extensors and flexors, and gastrocnemius and soleus for the ankle actions. Therefore squats, leg curls, and toe raises are very popular

    5) Abdominal curls with all variations and rotations are very necessary for all sports. A strong back is also crucial in many sports. Therefore, back extensions should be considered. (I wouldn't do any ab curls as they can result in injury. You should consider sticking to excerisies devised by Dr. Stuart M. McGill, so as to avoid any injuries to the back)

    6) In sports training, it's more important to think about training movements and not muscles since exercises that mimic a technical move are better for targeting the prime movers.

    7) Organize a longer-term sequence of training methods. Plan everything you do well. Be more methodical in what you use in training (emphasis mine). Allow the necessary time for the athlete to grow, to get ready for the next method, load increment, or alternation of types of strength. Remember that you can help a great deal, but you may also do quite a bit of damage. The coach has to wisely use maximum stimulation, high recruitment of fast-twitch muscles, and alternate with power training, where the firing rate of the same muscles are trained.

    8) The efficiency of an athlete's performance depends on his or her quality of training and nutrition. The energy used by the body strictly depends on the nutrition, diet, and training supplements one uses. But nutrition has to also be periodized according to the periodization of strength and endurance training. One can't just talk about nutrition in disregard of training.

    9) One of the greatest frustrations I have is that to some authors, there's no clear distinction between the objectives of strength training for sports, bodybuilding, and Olympic weightlifting. Authors with a football background expect everyone to do what a linebacker is doing. The same thing is valid for those who have a bodybuilding background. They discuss split routines, supersets, etc. This is totally inadequate for strength training for sports.



    Maximum efficiency with minimum effort. Does that ring a bell? That interview was a crash course in sport specific strength training...

    Then again I get it. If I could only train with my "gripper" or "wrist roller" (thats what I used to call it on date nights...), I'd be frustrated too. I think that you should find yourself some training partners outside of judo, you sound like you've been neglecting your prime mover...


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    accident_prone

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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by accident_prone on Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:24 pm

    Okazi wrote:

    You solicited advice on strength and grip training outside of judo...

    did i? i don't think i asked for advice. i think i described some of the training i am doing outside of my judo classes, and then asked what some other forum members do. let's check my post...

    accident_prone wrote:i'm interested in hearing how you all go about training for both general strength and grip strength *outside* of judo practice.

    *description of some of the training i do, snipped for space*

    do any of you have experience with the other tools offered by ironmind (the guys behind the captains of crush grippers?)

    yep, no mention of seeking advice. i did ask if anyone had experience with a specific set of training tools, though.

    Okazi wrote:you received a response which included an interview with a man commonly referred to as "the father of periodization".

    yes, nice article. it doesn't contradict any of the strength and conditioning that i am doing, thanks. i *do* consider the movements in judo when working with my strength and conditioning coach (also a judo player) to develop and evolve my workouts. you make a lot of assumptions about my training, and most of them are wrong. you should try not being such a schmuck.

    Okazi wrote:Then again I get it. If I could only train with my "gripper" or "wrist roller" (thats what I used to call it on date nights...), I'd be frustrated too. I think that you should find yourself some training partners outside of judo, you sound like you've been neglecting your prime mover...

    and... a masturbation joke. that's really clever. you should be proud.

    working with a gripper and a wrist roller are well known tools for improving one's gi gripping ability in judo, and strengthening one's wrists. in fact my sensei, a kodokan hachidan, suggested that we all use a wrist roller regularly, but i suppose you don't think he knows what he's talking about.

    thanks to all the other posters in this thread who answered my question, i'm not sure why captain derail had to start talking about the evils of snatches and clean and jerks. okazi, go start your own thread about olympic lifts, maybe you can get matt d'aquino to come argue with you, since he actually *does* recommend using olympic lifts for judo training in his book on strength training for judo, and he's even a forum member!
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    Okazi

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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by Okazi on Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:13 am

    accident_prone wrote:
    Okazi wrote:

    You solicited advice on strength and grip training outside of judo...

    did i? i don't think i asked for advice. i think i described some of the training i am doing outside of my judo classes, and then asked what some other forum members do. let's check my post...

    accident_prone wrote:i'm interested in hearing how you all go about training for both general strength and grip strength *outside* of judo practice.

    *description of some of the training i do, snipped for space*

    do any of you have experience with the other tools offered by ironmind (the guys behind the captains of crush grippers?)

    yep, no mention of seeking advice. i did ask if anyone had experience with a specific set of training tools, though.

    Okazi wrote:you received a response which included an interview with a man commonly referred to as "the father of periodization".

    yes, nice article. it doesn't contradict any of the strength and conditioning that i am doing, thanks. i *do* consider the movements in judo when working with my strength and conditioning coach (also a judo player) to develop and evolve my workouts. you make a lot of assumptions about my training, and most of them are wrong. you should try not being such a schmuck.

    Okazi wrote:Then again I get it. If I could only train with my "gripper" or "wrist roller" (thats what I used to call it on date nights...), I'd be frustrated too. I think that you should find yourself some training partners outside of judo, you sound like you've been neglecting your prime mover...

    and... a masturbation joke. that's really clever. you should be proud.

    working with a gripper and a wrist roller are well known tools for improving one's gi gripping ability in judo, and strengthening one's wrists. in fact my sensei, a kodokan hachidan, suggested that we all use a wrist roller regularly, but i suppose you don't think he knows what he's talking about.

    thanks to all the other posters in this thread who answered my question, i'm not sure why captain derail had to start talking about the evils of snatches and clean and jerks. okazi, go start your own thread about olympic lifts, maybe you can get matt d'aquino to come argue with you, since he actually *does* recommend using olympic lifts for judo training in his book on strength training for judo, and he's even a forum member!

    Dearest accident_prone:

    "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish, and he will sit in a boat playing with his gripper all day"

    I wish you all the best with whatever it is you are doing or plan on doing.

    Your obedient servant,

    Okazi


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    accident_prone

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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by accident_prone on Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:05 am

    so rather than reply to my points by showing where i solicited your or anyone's advice, or admit i am right (i am right, by the way, your post had nothing to with this thread) you post another juvenile "joke" about the gripper. and make a passing stab at my training methods which you know very little about.

    you're really a remarkably unpleasant, and dense person, with a huge ego for no apparent reason and no aptitude for logical argument judging by your quick resort to strawman arguments and insults.

    i look forward to your thread attacking olympic lifting where you engage mr. d'aquino. are you going to start it soon? i can start one for you if you would like, since you seem to enjoy attempting to take over threads started by others for your own agenda.
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    Taiobroshi

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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by Taiobroshi on Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:23 am

    I know this circumvents the question, but increasing your level of movement both when connected and when negotiating grips makes it much more difficult to break your grip- the opponent has to find the correct angle to break your grip or have sufficient strength to break it inefficiently. There is an upper limit to how strong your personal grips can be and a much higher limit to how strong the muscles involved in grip breaking can be. While increasing grip strength is a good idea, I think it is also productive to work on moving in a way that discourages grip breaks in the first place.

    Again, this is a me thing, but my training partner and I focus more on grip endurance than the power of the individual grips. If I feel my grip about to broken I usually concede the grip, re-position my body, and regrip. This which catches people off guard, especially in cases where the opponent was so focused on trying to muscle me. For light-weights like you and I, smaller hand size also favors this strategy since excessively thick judogi make it harder to maintain a strong grip.
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    Ouch_that_hurts

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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by Ouch_that_hurts on Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:48 am

    ROCK CLIMBING!!! Core, check... Grip strength, double check.... Legs and Balance, check and check.... Back, YEP!!!

    Seriously try rock climbing and some other form of cardio!


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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by thp on Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:42 pm

    Hey Accident Prone, check out Ross's suggestions: http://www.rosstraining.com/articles/trainingthehands.html
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    rjohnston411

    Posts : 109
    Join date : 2013-02-12
    Age : 31
    Location : Ontario

    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by rjohnston411 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:50 am

    Sprinting and hill sprints are supposed to have good carryover for athletes.
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    accident_prone

    Posts : 25
    Join date : 2013-01-17
    Age : 47
    Location : NYC

    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

    Post by accident_prone on Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:36 am

    thanks, guys. interesting points from taiobroshi (but we get to chat about that stuff in person as well.) i like the suggestion of rock climbing, and when my knee is up to it, i do interval sprints as part of my cardio training. i'm a huge fan of ross enamait, and lo and behold, he recommends a *wrist roller* and a *gripper* in addition to other things. amazing. Smile

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    Re: Strength and Grip Training for Judo

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