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    Blacksmi
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    New IJF Rules

    Post by Blacksmi on Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:01 am

    This question was originally intended to those of you who are either dojo owners/head sensei, or charged with putting together lesson plans. As I thought it through, I decided to throw it out to the yudanshakai in general.

    The new IJF rules are upon us, and my intent is not to discuss or debate their merit or lack thereof, but to ask if/how you plan to implement them.

    In my dojo, we plan to keep teaching judo. That translates to; our smallest children will continue to be taught the fundamentals. Since we really do not stress or overly encourage competition at this level it does not really apply to them. We will cover the rules for our younger juniors, but not dwell on it. We will cover the rules, and focus on remaining contest legal techniques with our older junior who compete.

    Seniors (High School/college age) folks make up a minority of our dojo, but are generally active competitors. We will focus on the rules with them, but stress that for promotion (especially to ikkyu/shodan) that they still need to know and demonstrate with proficiency all of techniques – not just those allowed in competition. My reasoning being It would be absurd for example to tell someone “kata garuma is forbidden but you need to know it as part of the kata.”

    The majority of our population is made up by masters age, dan grade judoka with a few novices of the same age sprinkled in. All of this group either did or does still compete at varying levels with varying degrees of success. Within this group, I expect that there will be some discussion of the new rules formally, and a longer one over a beverage after class but that we will continue to do judo as before. And when I say as before I mean that while we don’t still score kokas we still recognize 67 techniques and think that 65 of them are perfectly valid as far as randori is concerned. If anyone is nursing an injury, they can still declare something off limits with their randori partner.

    How do you plan to roll this out in your dojo? For the rest of the yudanshakai – how would you like to see it rolled out in your dojo?

    Thanks for your input!

    Blacksmith

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by Blacksmith on Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:06 am

    Blacksmi wrote:This question was originally intended to those of you who are either dojo owners/head sensei, or charged with putting together lesson plans. As I thought it through, I decided to throw it out to the yudanshakai in general.

    The new IJF rules are upon us, and my intent is not to discuss or debate their merit or lack thereof, but to ask if/how you plan to implement them.

    In my dojo, we plan to keep teaching judo. That translates to; our smallest children will continue to be taught the fundamentals. Since we really do not stress or overly encourage competition at this level it does not really apply to them. We will cover the rules for our younger juniors, but not dwell on it. We will cover the rules, and focus on remaining contest legal techniques with our older junior who compete.

    Seniors (High School/college age) folks make up a minority of our dojo, but are generally active competitors. We will focus on the rules with them, but stress that for promotion (especially to ikkyu/shodan) that they still need to know and demonstrate with proficiency all of techniques – not just those allowed in competition. My reasoning being It would be absurd for example to tell someone “kata garuma is forbidden but you need to know it as part of the kata.”

    The majority of our population is made up by masters age, dan grade judoka with a few novices of the same age sprinkled in. All of this group either did or does still compete at varying levels with varying degrees of success. Within this group, I expect that there will be some discussion of the new rules formally, and a longer one over a beverage after class but that we will continue to do judo as before. And when I say as before I mean that while we don’t still score kokas we still recognize 67 techniques and think that 65 of them are perfectly valid as far as randori is concerned. If anyone is nursing an injury, they can still declare something off limits with their randori partner.

    How do you plan to roll this out in your dojo? For the rest of the yudanshakai – how would you like to see it rolled out in your dojo?

    Thanks for your input!

    edit: Sorry was not logged in when I posted. If it posted twice I apologize.

    tafftaz

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by tafftaz on Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:50 am

    At our club we, as coaches, will continue to teach everything that is in the gokyo. Anyone who wants to compete will adapt to suit themselves. They will be shown, and allowed to practise, all the new regulation grip/breaks/waza but not to the detriment of the whole club structure.

    judoratt

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by judoratt on Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:24 am

    At our dojo as soon as we got the rules in writing we started working with them. The major change in instruction is in gripping for the more advanced students. As far as curriculum very little will change and the rule in rondori is no referees no rules so anything goes in the advanced classes. Laughing Laughing

    Rob GBR

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by Rob GBR on Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:15 am

    tafftaz wrote:At our club we, as coaches, will continue to teach everything that is in the gokyo. Anyone who wants to compete will adapt to suit themselves. They will be shown, and allowed to practise, all the new regulation grip/breaks/waza but not to the detriment of the whole club structure.

    pretty much the same at my club, i teach a junior lesson for 5-14s so the new rules won't effect my class, as i only have a few strongly competitive juniors and they also do the senior sessions, as for the seniors, probably some 1-to-1 to make sure everyone fully understands the rules and focus'ing on 1 handed grip breaks would be a good start


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    RidgewoodJudo

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by RidgewoodJudo on Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:16 am

    I posted on the "old" forum, that I find these constant rule changes very disturbing. I know of no other sport that makes such dramatic moves like scoring changes. I think its detrimental to the sport. People don't like change... and it seems like the change is just made for the sake of change.

    My other point is that once someone becomes very proficient in judo, the throws just "happen" with very little thought. A counter becomes "automatic." An opening becomes "automatic." Is it fair to suddenly prohibit leg picks? What happens to the judo contestant who is a leg pick specialist and is on "auto pilot?" He or she has done them for so long, it's "ingrained" in the brain. It's very difficult, and quite frankly unfair, to require leg pick specialists to "unlearn" them. Have you every seen a really good leg pick? It can make a spectacular ippon.

    sodo

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by sodo on Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:31 am

    RidgewoodJudo wrote:I posted on the "old" forum, that I find these constant rule changes very disturbing. I know of no other sport that makes such dramatic moves like scoring changes. I think its detrimental to the sport. People don't like change... and it seems like the change is just made for the sake of change.

    My other point is that once someone becomes very proficient in judo, the throws just "happen" with very little thought. A counter becomes "automatic." An opening becomes "automatic." Is it fair to suddenly prohibit leg picks? What happens to the judo contestant who is a leg pick specialist and is on "auto pilot?" He or she has done them for so long, it's "ingrained" in the brain. It's very difficult, and quite frankly unfair, to require leg pick specialists to "unlearn" them. Have you every seen a really good leg pick? It can make a spectacular ippon.


    Th eproble with the rule changes started in the late sevenies/early eighties by changing the layout of contests and introducing shorter contest times and minor scores/penalties the produced problems with competitors playing the game and exploiting the rules, nearly every rule change since then has been to correct situations that have been caused by earlier rule changes affraid getting to the point that the sport/art is no longer anything like it was.

    The easiest answer ist to line all the IJF/EJU bigwigs against a wall use them for target practice, afterwards we can change the rules back to pre 1980 and every body would be happy Twisted Evil

    atb

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    tafftaz

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by tafftaz on Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:15 am

    I much prefer the "full fat" sodo anyway:D

    finarashi

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by finarashi on Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:19 am

    RidgewoodJudo wrote:I posted on the "old" forum, that I find these constant rule changes very disturbing. I know of no other sport that makes such dramatic moves like scoring changes. I think its detrimental to the sport. People don't like change... and it seems like the change is just made for the sake of change.

    My other point is that once someone becomes very proficient in judo, the throws just "happen" with very little thought. A counter becomes "automatic." An opening becomes "automatic." Is it fair to suddenly prohibit leg picks? What happens to the judo contestant who is a leg pick specialist and is on "auto pilot?" He or she has done them for so long, it's "ingrained" in the brain. It's very difficult, and quite frankly unfair, to require leg pick specialists to "unlearn" them. Have you every seen a really good leg pick? It can make a spectacular ippon.

    If you want to look at rediculous rules and constant changes that don't help just look at modern greco-roman. What has "rolling a guy around" who is already down has to do with ability to wrestle.

    Why for the 30 first years of my Judo leg pics were not important but now they are thought as the 'core Judo'?


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    BillC

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by BillC on Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:59 am

    finarashi wrote:Why for the 30 first years of my Judo leg pics were not important but now they are thought as the 'core Judo'?

    Why? Because they are? As are techniques in which arm touches leg.

    I think what a lot of people find unreasonable are the penalties, not so much that they can't live without kataguruma. I think that lots of experienced judoka don't like the penalty-based game and that the velocity of changes has caused people to suddenly notice them. I think ... and probably I am in a substantial minority if not majority that hansokumake for anything less than a gross breach of safety or order is inappropriate and ridiculous.

    I think ... I know ... that lots of judoka who like nothing but to train in the dojo and play in the occasional local event object to the constant and often ill-informed interruption and interjections by referees just because they think they should be doing something ... this is irritating at best ... approaching comedy at its worst ... and more and more rules provide referees more pressure to look for and penalize more stupid rules.

    The only thing encouraging in the recent changes is the notion that penalties on one competitor should not be awarded as score to the other party.

    Edit: Oh yeah ... and the handshake thing ... and the kissing ... especially the "no tongues" part.

    I HOPE that at least some judo organizations might step back, review the last 30 years or so, and decide to take a hard look at which IJF rules they are going to roll out for their events.

    GR3G4

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by GR3G4 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:46 am

    I think most people are overreacting to the new rules. We keep forgetting that it's only a trial period (until the World Championships this year). And who knows, maybe the new rules will turn out great. Maybe there will be much more ippon scores, maybe now everybody will go for ippon, maybe the new rules will crash and burn. We just have to give it time.

    Another thing - we have to wait and see how the new rules will be enforced in practice.

    sodo

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by sodo on Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:05 am

    tafftaz wrote:I much prefer the "full fat" sodo anyway:D


    Davaro

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by Davaro on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:18 pm

    At my club, we just do all the good old normal Judo.

    When a competition comes along, I go over what is and is not allowed. As a current ref, I get decent insight into the finer points and what is going to be concentrated on at a particular event and then have a meeting with all the players and advise accordingly.

    I very seldom have any hassles with regard to Hansoku's on my players and my method works well for us.

    "When in Rome" comes to mind...


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    Davaro

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by Davaro on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:19 pm

    Lol @ fluffy Sodo....


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    tafftaz

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by tafftaz on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:43 am

    Never thought I would see "fluffy" and Sodo in the same sentence.Very Happy

    Makes me feel all warm and tingly:D

    BillC

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by BillC on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:18 am

    tafftaz wrote:Never thought I would see "fluffy" and Sodo in the same sentence.Very Happy

    From what I heard, he now uses a hair dryer instead of a towel ...

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:40 am

    BillC wrote:
    tafftaz wrote:Never thought I would see "fluffy" and Sodo in the same sentence.Very Happy

    From what I heard, he now uses a hair dryer instead of a towel ...

    I first read it as "fluffer", and thought Sodo was expanding his career into new arenas...

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:28 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    BillC wrote:
    tafftaz wrote:Never thought I would see "fluffy" and Sodo in the same sentence.Very Happy

    From what I heard, he now uses a hair dryer instead of a towel ...

    I first read it as "fluffer", and thought Sodo was expanding his career into new arenas...

    Hansoku-make ! No


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:04 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    BillC wrote:
    tafftaz wrote:Never thought I would see "fluffy" and Sodo in the same sentence.Very Happy

    From what I heard, he now uses a hair dryer instead of a towel ...

    I first read it as "fluffer", and thought Sodo was expanding his career into new arenas...

    Hansoku-make ! No

    Why? Is Sodo Lite using a two on one or grabbing the legs to transition to ne waza ?

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:40 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    I first read it as "fluffer", and thought Sodo was expanding his career into new arenas...

    Hansoku-make ! No

    Why? Is Sodo Lite using a two on one or grabbing the legs to transition to ne waza ?

    Noooooooooooooo. Because of the F-word ! Meow. cat


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    amadus

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by amadus on Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:19 am

    I received Hansoku-make last weekend for inadvertently touching my opponent's leg while falling front first to the mat from a failed hiza guruma (his leg was stretched out in front of me). There were 6 seconds left in the match and I was going to be the winner.

    I love the new rules and how competent referees are in implementing them! Hooray.

    BillC

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by BillC on Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:31 am

    amadus wrote:I received Hansoku-make last weekend for inadvertently touching my opponent's leg while falling front first to the mat from a failed hiza guruma (his leg was stretched out in front of me).  There were 6 seconds left in the match and I was going to be the winner.

    I love the new rules and how competent referees are in implementing them!  Hooray.

    As I understand the latest interpretation ... there are always those ... truly inadvertent contacts should not be penalized, especially that which is caused by the action of the opponent and not the "offender." Probably that "interpretation" is either incorrect or has not yet been understood in your region.

    Go back and ask for your medal. When they refuse, ask for your entry fee and travel cost back. When they refuse, you can consider whether you want to take part in European jacket wrestling contests any more.


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    jkw

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by jkw on Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:40 am

    BillC wrote:...you can consider whether you want to take part in European jacket wrestling contests any more.

    Yes and no. Bad judgement calls by referees are a part of judo and - probably - life itself. Totally unpleasant as an experience, but learning how to deal productively and positively with these kind of situations is a great thing to discover and well worth the cost of at least a local level medal.

    Having said that, if you're Shinohara and you say you're annoyed - I get it.

    BillC

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by BillC on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:20 am

    jkw wrote:
    BillC wrote:...you can consider whether you want to take part in European jacket wrestling contests any more.

    Yes and no. Bad judgement calls by referees are a part of judo and - probably - life itself. Totally unpleasant as an experience, but learning how to deal productively and positively with these kind of situations is a great thing to discover and well worth the cost of at least a local level medal.

    Having said that, if you're Shinohara and you say you're annoyed - I get it.

    Quite true what you say, we all have been "robbed" from time to time.  Refereeing is a thankless task which under the best of conditions requires a high level of skill and judo knowledge to do correctly.  People attracted to both are rare ... and though they are often simultaneously annoying personalities, as judoka we should indeed graciously accept even their most obvious goof ups ... which I guess conflicts with the last part of your statement. Rolling Eyes 

    That said, increasingly complicated and counter-intuitive lists of rules are unfair to the casual weekend referee as well as the dedicated weekend warrior.  It exposes referee to even more possible criticism from players who feel unfairly treated ... if what the posted said is true then in this case with good reason.

    When all of this is taking place in an organization which has recently been very honest in shucking away any pretense of promoting the principles of the founder, again like a broken record I repeat the suggestion that local organizations return to simpler judo, judo with the goals and principles of the founder intact, while the IJF proceeds with its promotion of Olympic and commercial values.


    Last edited by BillC on Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    amadus

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    Re: New IJF Rules

    Post by amadus on Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:07 am

    Wait. Wait. I found out today that I actually got a medal at the tournament where I got Hansoku-make. So, we're not disqualified anymore with HM?

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