E-Judo

Judo network and forum


    Kosen Judo Rules

    Share
    avatar
    makoto

    Posts : 13
    Join date : 2014-05-08

    Kosen Judo Rules

    Post by makoto on Thu Aug 14, 2014 11:51 pm

    What do you think about kosen judo rules?



    _________________
    "Sometimes you win - sometimes you learn.", book title by John C. Maxwell

    Emanuele2

    Posts : 141
    Join date : 2013-01-21

    Re: Kosen Judo Rules

    Post by Emanuele2 on Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:03 am

    it seems BJJ.
    avatar
    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 857
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Kosen Judo Rules

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:00 am

    Emanuele2 wrote:it seems BJJ.

    Of course it does. Helio Gracie invented budô and Kanô Jigorô was his student ... did you not know that ? What did you expect ?


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
    avatar
    afulldeck

    Posts : 377
    Join date : 2012-12-30

    Re: Kosen Judo Rules

    Post by afulldeck on Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:43 am

    Emanuele2 wrote:it seems BJJ.

    Not even close....


    _________________
    “I have never wished to cater to the crowd; for what I know they do not approve, and what they approve I do not know.” ... Epicurus at Sen. Lucil, 29.10
    avatar
    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 857
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Kosen Judo Rules

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:49 am

    afulldeck wrote:
    Emanuele2 wrote:it seems BJJ.

    Not even close....

    Maybe he was referring to ... the rashguard ... but there was missing half a dozen of brand labels on the gi ...


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    Mr_Michael_or_Mike

    Posts : 43
    Join date : 2014-01-25

    Re: Kosen Judo Rules

    Post by Mr_Michael_or_Mike on Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:15 am

    Emanuele2 wrote:it seems BJJ.

    Modern sport BJJ is probably what you mean. Not the kind Helio promoted. It is similar in style because it's all on the ground without any other considerations. Helio was interested in self-defense, challenge matches and, street brawls in between.


    Last edited by Mr_Michael_or_Mike on Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:28 am; edited 1 time in total

    Mr_Michael_or_Mike

    Posts : 43
    Join date : 2014-01-25

    Re: Kosen Judo Rules

    Post by Mr_Michael_or_Mike on Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:25 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    afulldeck wrote:
    Emanuele2 wrote:it seems BJJ.

    Not even close....

    Maybe he was referring to ... the rashguard ... but there was missing half a dozen of brand labels on the gi ...


    The old photos of Helio and, his students did not seem to have any patches. They probably wore Judo gis for a time. The patches seem to have arrived in the late 1980s and, 1990s. Probably from manufacturers seeking to capitalize on the growing BJJ sport tournaments and, teams starting up around Rio. I think Royce Gracie wore a plain white gi in the first 4 UFC shows.
    avatar
    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 857
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Kosen Judo Rules

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:26 pm

    Mr_Michael_or_Mike wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    afulldeck wrote:
    Emanuele2 wrote:it seems BJJ.

    Not even close....

    Maybe he was referring to ... the rashguard ... but there was missing half a dozen of brand labels on the gi ...


    The old photos of Helio and, his students did not seem to have any patches. They probably wore Judo gis for a time. The patches seem to have arrived in the late 1980s and, 1990s. Probably from manufacturers seeking to capitalize on the growing BJJ sport tournaments and, teams starting up around Rio. I think Royce Gracie wore a plain white gi in the first 4 UFC shows.

    There were no patches either when he did his Bruce Lee look, part from ample patches of white hair:




    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
    avatar
    noboru

    Posts : 598
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 39
    Location : Czech Republic

    Jigoro Kano lamented Kosen rules

    Post by noboru on Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:55 pm

    In the books "Jigoro Kano and the Kodokan -  An Innovative Response To Modernisation" from Kodokan Judo Institute are some notes about Jigoro Kano opinions about Kosen rules  (Special High School) judo style.

    Jigoro Kano prefered studying of Nage waza first and after studying of Katame waza. If the people practice Katame waza more than Nage waza they didn't learn Nage waza good. They focus to katame techniques more and neglect the studying of Nage waza, they don't feel the neccessity practice Nage waza. But for selfdefence is Nage waza more important than Katame waza... He lamented on Kosen judo rules and Kosen way of randori. He talked with Kosen tournaments representatives about his opinions but without effect.

    In the book is the Kano's reason more described and explained. I try to put the menaing into some short sentences...

    On the Gotaro Ogawa website are reasons for creating of Kosen rules ( http://www.judo-voj.com/contents/reiho.html )
    Eric Hubert from article on web Gotaro Ogawa wrote:
    However, the historical reason of this competition is particularly interesting. After some research, I discovered that the universities had agreed to adopt rules favoring the utilization of newaza because it was sometimes difficult for these schools to recruit a sufficient number of experienced judoka to form a full team and as the time necessary for the training of tachiwaza (standing techniques ) is long. In contrast, we could form a solid combatant in two or three years (university duration is 4 years) with a good defensive aptitude in standing techniques and some efficient and varied techniques in newaza (sankaku-jime is particularly appreciated) who is capable of defeating less strong opponent and of not losing against stronger adversary. This approach, therefore, made it possible for beginner students to accede to competition within a reasonable time and rendered the result of competition less dependent on the level of judo techniques acquired at high school or college.

    wdax

    Posts : 181
    Join date : 2013-01-22

    Re: Kosen Judo Rules

    Post by wdax on Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:17 pm

    noboru wrote:
    On the Gotaro Ogawa website are reasons for creating of Kosen rules ( http://www.judo-voj.com/contents/reiho.html )
    Eric Hubert from article on web Gotaro Ogawa wrote:
    However, the historical reason of this competition is particularly interesting. After some research, I discovered that the universities had agreed to adopt rules favoring the utilization of newaza because it was sometimes difficult for these schools to recruit a sufficient number of experienced judoka to form a full team and as the time necessary for the training of tachiwaza (standing techniques ) is long. In contrast, we could form a solid combatant in two or three years (university duration is 4 years) with a good defensive aptitude in standing techniques and some efficient and varied techniques in newaza (sankaku-jime is particularly appreciated) who is capable of defeating less strong opponent and of not losing against stronger adversary. This approach, therefore, made it possible for beginner students to accede to competition within a reasonable time and rendered the result of competition less dependent on the level of judo techniques acquired at high school or college.
    Very interesting opinion - relates somewhat to my impression, that young adults, who want to start with a "grappling-art"/"grappling-sport" tend to prefer something with more focus on groundwork. It simply offers quicker success then trying to master nage-waza.

    Emanuele2

    Posts : 141
    Join date : 2013-01-21

    Re: Kosen Judo Rules

    Post by Emanuele2 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:34 pm

    Oh yes I meant old bjj, the Helio one and the bjj used until early '90s.
    avatar
    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 857
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Kosen Judo Rules

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:37 am

    noboru wrote:In the books "Jigoro Kano and the Kodokan -  An Innovative Response To Modernisation" from Kodokan Judo Institute are some notes about Jigoro Kano opinions about Kosen rules  (Special High School) judo style.

    Jigoro Kano prefered studying of Nage waza first and after studying of Katame waza. If the people practice Katame waza more than Nage waza they didn't learn Nage waza good. They focus to katame techniques more and neglect the studying of Nage waza, they don't feel the neccessity practice Nage waza. But for selfdefence is Nage waza more important than Katame waza... He lamented on Kosen judo rules and Kosen way of randori. He talked with Kosen tournaments representatives about his opinions but without effect.

    In the book is the Kano's reason more described and explained. I try to put the menaing into some short sentences...

    On the Gotaro Ogawa website are reasons for creating of Kosen rules ( http://www.judo-voj.com/contents/reiho.html )
    Eric Hubert from article on web Gotaro Ogawa wrote:
    However, the historical reason of this competition is particularly interesting. After some research, I discovered that the universities had agreed to adopt rules favoring the utilization of newaza because it was sometimes difficult for these schools to recruit a sufficient number of experienced judoka to form a full team and as the time necessary for the training of tachiwaza (standing techniques ) is long. In contrast, we could form a solid combatant in two or three years (university duration is 4 years) with a good defensive aptitude in standing techniques and some efficient and varied techniques in newaza (sankaku-jime is particularly appreciated) who is capable of defeating less strong opponent and of not losing against stronger adversary. This approach, therefore, made it possible for beginner students to accede to competition within a reasonable time and rendered the result of competition less dependent on the level of judo techniques acquired at high school or college.

    How does what you write here imply that "Kanô lamented Kôsen rules ?". It is well known that katame-waza was initially not developed as much as nage-waza in jûdô hence why the Kôdôkan at some point also got its ass kicked especially against Fûsen-ryû-trained jûjutsuka. The underdevelopment of newaza is also logical since Kitô-ryû which is what Kanô was initially teaching was focusing on rhythm, the principle of no-self hence in practice the sacrifice of the self in sutemi-waza. Even though Tenjin Shin'yô-ryû had considerable newaza, Kanô's initial focus was kuzushi and from Tenjin Shin'yô-ryû he took the model of roppô-no-kuzushi which he developed into happô-no-kuzushi. The shift towards newaza came later. The first gokyô was already finished in 1895.

    By the way, you seem to be confusing katame-waza with newaza, since you seem to be talking about mat- or groundwork; that is not katame-waza, but newaza. Katame-waza does not indicate whether the techniques occur in tachi-waza or in newaza. In the model of education which was Kanô's primary focus, newaza played a less important role for the obvious reason that the education component needed to make it possible to perform it everywhere hence why jû-no-kata or sei-ryoku zen'yô kokumin taiiku do not require a tatami, nor a gi. Newaza requires at least a tatami and dedicated clothes; it's not something you can do in a suit in-between 2 business meetings. The mess at the 1906 meeting had primarily to do with katame-waza performed in newaza as reflected by the absence of consensus on kime-no-kata which for more than a decade afterwards did not appear anywhere. However, none of this had anything to do with Kôsen-rules whatsoever, as it all (except the consolidation of kime-no-kata) occurred before Kôsen-rules even existed. It seems that what you are presenting here are two unrelated things which you present as cause/effect without any substantiation that they even had a relationship. Nothing of this indicates that "Kanô lamented Kôsen rules". This year, I have visited a number of countries, including France, the UK, but not Japan. Does that mean that "I lamented visiting Japan" ? Of course not, it has nothing to do with it. If you want to conclude that Kanô "lamented Kôsen rules" (which I am neither saying he did or did not) you need to provide direct, relevant evidence he did. Nothing in that sense can be concluded from what you have presented so far (irrespective of whether her did or did not lament Kôsen rules).

    Newaza in jûdô was later more seriously developed by people such as Oda Jôin, Kanemitsu Yaichibei, Ushijima Tatsukuma, and nothing indicates that Kanô had a problem with it. However, the pedagogical structure of newaza never was perfected to the same extent as jûdô's tachi-waza. That was not a desire, but a consequence, just like many other things which Kanô never properly finished developing, which was hardly as surprise since he was more involved in politics and in the Olympic Committee than in further developing jûdô. In addition the whole matter of getting jûdô accepted as an education took so much time and effort, that his candle had burnt down considerably by the time he reached that It was 1928 before Sei-ryoku zen'yô was finished, which supposedly was going to be his magnum opus, but which in the end turned out the thing that jûdô fighters couldn't be bothered with. By then he barely had a decade more to live, old, sick and disillusioned. Add to that the political infighting with the Butokukai and several other political matters an rows, and it is hardly a surprise that most of his time was absorbed by things that no longer translated into substantial progress of jûdô.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
    avatar
    noboru

    Posts : 598
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 39
    Location : Czech Republic

    Re: Kosen Judo Rules

    Post by noboru on Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:20 pm

    Thank you CK for your post.

    I will look at book "Jigoro Kano and the Kodokan -  An Innovative Response To Modernisation" again and give some response.

    May be that I understand some context bad about Kano's opinion of Kosen judo rules.

    So you have right about meaning Katame waza vs. Ne waza. My bad understanding too.
    avatar
    noboru

    Posts : 598
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 39
    Location : Czech Republic

    from book "Jigoro Kano and the Kodokan"

    Post by noboru on Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:08 pm

    Hi CK,
    you have right. Sorry. In the book "Jigoro Kano and the Kodokan - An Innovative Response To Modernisation" is not directly written that Jigoro Kano lamented to Kosen Judo rules. My bad understanding. Im sorry.

    But:
    If you have this book, please can you look at some parts?
    pages 109 below - 111 - there are descriptions about changes in Kodokan rules (1924), in 1925 Butokukai regulations were modified in accordance with Kanos suggestions.
    There is written too:
    - Kanos reasserted about Tachi waza importance, Ne waza is second
    - Kano changes was about adding restriction of Ne waza using and matches must commence from Tachi waza
    - Kano had some meetings with organisers of Kosen tournaments and his concept they not fully accepted.

    Jigoro Kano lamented on the way of doing randori in 1926 during radio interview (page 47-48). He appeled to instructors to restore randori training metodology to the spirit in which it was practised in his original spontaneous style.
    The opinions about randori is more on the pages 67-69 - there are noted about Kodokan match rules changes in 1922.

    I would scan the parts from this book and post it here for full understanding but it is not possible.

    CK, thank you for your next comments an opinions. I don't have better sources about Kodokan history than this book and I can compare/rebuild my view after your and other people comments...
    avatar
    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 857
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Kosen Judo Rules

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:31 pm

    noboru wrote:Hi CK,
    you have right. Sorry. In the book "Jigoro Kano and the Kodokan -  An Innovative Response To Modernisation" is not directly written that Jigoro Kano lamented to Kosen Judo rules. My bad understanding. Im sorry.

    But:
    If you have this book, please can you look at some parts?
    pages 109 below - 111  - there are descriptions about changes in Kodokan rules (1924), in 1925 Butokukai regulations were modified in accordance with Kanos suggestions.
    There is written too:
    - Kanos reasserted about Tachi waza importance, Ne waza is second
    - Kano changes was about adding restriction of Ne waza using and matches must commence from Tachi waza
    - Kano had some meetings with organisers of Kosen tournaments and his concept they not fully accepted.

    Jigoro Kano lamented on the way of doing randori in 1926 during radio interview (page 47-48). He appeled to instructors to restore randori training metodology to the spirit in which it was practised in his original spontaneous style.
    The opinions about randori is more on the pages 67-69 - there are noted about Kodokan match rules changes in 1922.

    I would scan the parts from this book and post it here for full understanding but it is not possible.

    CK, thank you for your next comments an opinions. I don't have better sources about Kodokan history than this book and I can compare/rebuild my view after your and other people comments...

    Unfortunately, I do not have access to my library.

    The emphasis on tachi-waza is logical since if anything at all, Kanô's objective was jû. How are you going to learn the application of jû in newaza ? Jû obviously does exist in newaza, just like most concepts, including tai-sabaki, but it is not that evident. Newaza invariably includes more power than tachi-waza. Newaza is less dynamic than tachi-waza, no matter who is doing it. This is also evident since the biomechanical principles underpinning newaza are different from those underpinning tachi-waza. Tachi-waza really boils down to provoking uke's center of mass to fall out of his basis of support. That can be done in ideal case by mere surprise, debana, etc. That is not so in newaza. The principle of center of mass does not exist in newaza, with the sole exception of some very technical turning skills. Instead, the central core of newaza, i.e. katame-waza is entirely relying on pressure forces and levers. While it is possible for a lighter person to defeat a stronger or heavier person in newaza, for example by choked, the preparation of that, the controle and to some extent the action itself invariably involves force. It can still be the best use of force, i.e. sei-ryoku zen'yô, The majority of Kanô's technical inspiration came from Kitô-ryû and Kitô-ryû, at least the jûjutsu part, is a throwing school, not a newaza or katame-waza school.

    Kanô shihan would lament tachi-waza randori today too, since virtually no one does randori outsider of Japan. They all to club-competition without a referee. The objective as we see it today is winning, throwing the other more than you being thrown, being the strongest. Virtually no one here does randori with the desire to realize sei-ryoku zen'yô. In newaza randori this is almost entire so. When did you for the last (or first) time see someone do newaza randori without any flexed muscles ? Even the enthusiastic BJJ-ers who will promptly start arguing that you should fight Ra Gracie, Re Gracie, Ro Gracie, Ri Gracie, Ru Gracie, and RR Gracie, when you look at them there virtually always is a considerable component of force in there. That does not mean they do not have very good technique, but its application is virtually always accompanied by considerable force, unless maybe the difference in technical skill is so huge that you can't seriously call it a fight anymore. Even if it weren't, when one can come up with only a single or handful of examples on the thousands of practitioners it still indicates that it is highly uncommon and not the standard as the comprehended and applied by the average practitioner.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
    avatar
    noboru

    Posts : 598
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 39
    Location : Czech Republic

    correct randori and randori posture

    Post by noboru on Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:22 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:

    Kanô shihan would lament tachi-waza randori today too, since virtually no one does randori outsider of Japan. They all to club-competition without a referee. The objective as we see it today is winning, throwing the other more than you being thrown, being the strongest. Virtually no one here does randori with the desire to realize sei-ryoku zen'yô.

    Yes. In the book are more explanation about correct randori and randori posture. The his reasons are joined as judo as form bujutsu and correct randori posture is important for defence or attact with techniques of Atemi waza (more explained in page 64).
    Kano complained that practitioners tend to forget that randori should also be a way to learn skills to survive a serious confrontation. Instead, many of them plays a percent calculates just how to win matches.
    It says that Kano had intended to use were allowed in randori techniques Atemi waza (punches and kicks). But it is difficult to find on the safety of the appropriate limit how much could be used and indicates that this possibility will be explored extensively. Kano is a problem that is not in randori into account the possible attack opponent with Atemi waza and by the ways in randori degenerate, mentioned several times in the years 1920 - 1927

    The same ideas are described in book Judo Memoirs of Jigoro Kano from Brian N. Watson.
    I found the parts on google books (captions Deteoration on randori, Correct randori posture)
    http://books.google.cz/books?id=Evjhhr2OsC0C&pg=PT76&lpg=PT76&dq=jigoro+kano+deteoration+of+randori&source=bl&ots=_mJuLgQalX&sig=pogp9aC-LOydr4AbJ7jaHhcJvt8&hl=cs&sa=X&ei=AeH1U7ShCcSaygPDpYKwBw&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=jigoro%20kano%20deteoration%20of%20randori&f=false

    Sponsored content

    Re: Kosen Judo Rules

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:10 am