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    De-ashi-harai or de-ashi-barai

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    Ryvai

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    De-ashi-harai or de-ashi-barai

    Post by Ryvai on Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:26 pm

    I believe I read the explanation for this on the old forum, but I can't seem to find it here. This word in particular seem to be used very differently, namely de-ashi-harai vs. de-ashi-harai. The both obviously mean the same thing, but which one is more grammatically correct?

    I've heard and seen Kodokan refer to it with both variations, and in books and videos both are also used. It's a bit confusing Smile

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    Jihef

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    Re: De-ashi-harai or de-ashi-barai

    Post by Jihef on Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:53 pm

    Ryvai wrote:I believe I read the explanation for this on the old forum, but I can't seem to find it here.
    Sadly, this is true for a lot of "classic" questions such as this one.

    I can almost hear CK's sighing…  


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    Ryvai

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    Re: De-ashi-harai or de-ashi-barai

    Post by Ryvai on Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:16 pm

    Jihef wrote:
    Ryvai wrote:I believe I read the explanation for this on the old forum, but I can't seem to find it here.
    Sadly, this is true for a lot of "classic" questions such as this one.

    I can almost hear CK's sighing…  

    I know, it was such a gold mine of information that forum Laughing

    the harai vs. barai one seems to be a bit different from the koshi/goshi situation. I believe it has something to do with 'Rendaku' (連濁), where koshi becomes goshi when proceeded by a vocal that closes the airways or something. We certainly don't see barai-goshi, but we do see deashi-harai and even okuri-ashi-harai. Shouldn't this becomes barai in de-ashi? It appears to be different from location to location or even preference. It would be interesting to see some real explanation for this Smile

    Emanuele2

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    Re: De-ashi-harai or de-ashi-barai

    Post by Emanuele2 on Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:48 pm

    The correct one is de ashi barai.
    Harai is used when it is for first word (harai goshi, harai tsurikomi ashi, harai makikomi ecc.).
    Barai is used whet it is after another word (for example de ashi barai, okuri ashi barai).
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    Fritz

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    Re: De-ashi-harai or de-ashi-barai

    Post by Fritz on Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:55 pm

    Emanuele2 wrote:The correct one is de ashi barai.
    Harai is used when it is for first word (harai goshi, harai tsurikomi ashi, harai makikomi ecc.).
    Barai is used whet it is after another word (for example de ashi barai, okuri ashi barai).
    Ok, you say the Kodokan its wrong in its transcription of the names: http://kodokan.org/e_waza/index.html   confused


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: De-ashi-harai or de-ashi-barai

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:10 am

    It's simple. Japanese is written in kanji and hiragana, not in Latin script. When you attempt to write (= transliterate) Japanese into Latin script, all you get is an "approximation". There is only one way to write the term this thread is about 100% correctly, and that is: 出足払. It is in most languages not uncommon for euphonic reasons that the pronunciation of words or parts of words changes somewhat depending on the word combination.

    The old Judo Forum is now part of the secret Vatican archives, and access requires special papal permission.


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    Ryvai

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    Re: De-ashi-harai or de-ashi-barai

    Post by Ryvai on Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:50 am

    Fritz wrote:
    Emanuele2 wrote:The correct one is de ashi barai.
    Harai is used when it is for first word (harai goshi, harai tsurikomi ashi, harai makikomi ecc.).
    Barai is used whet it is after another word (for example de ashi barai, okuri ashi barai).
    Ok, you say the Kodokan its wrong in its transcription of the names: http://kodokan.org/e_waza/index.html   confused

    This is one of the points that fuels the fire of confusion. Not even Kodokan are systematically using de-ashi-barai. So why should anyone else? As mentioned before you don't see this discrepancy in any other Kodokan technique. For some reason de-ashi-harai is accepted, how come?

    Cichorei Kano wrote:It's simple. Japanese is written in kanji and hiragana, not in Latin script. When you attempt to write (= transliterate) Japanese into Latin script, all you get is an "approximation". There is only one way to write the term this thread is about 100% correctly, and that is: 出足払. It is in most languages not uncommon for euphonic reasons that the pronunciation of words or parts of words changes somewhat depending on the word combination.

    So is this a special case where both can be used? Does this have to do with the way 'ashi' is pronounced? I also see 'okuri-ashi-harai' being used sometimes, but we would have hear something like 'barai-tsurikomi-ashi' for example, hehe.

    Cichorei Kano wrote:The old Judo Forum is now part of the secret Vatican archives, and access requires special papal permission.

    Would two choir boys suffice?  Laughing 





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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: De-ashi-harai or de-ashi-barai

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:21 am

    Ryvai wrote:
    Fritz wrote:
    Emanuele2 wrote:The correct one is de ashi barai.
    Harai is used when it is for first word (harai goshi, harai tsurikomi ashi, harai makikomi ecc.).
    Barai is used whet it is after another word (for example de ashi barai, okuri ashi barai).
    Ok, you say the Kodokan its wrong in its transcription of the names: http://kodokan.org/e_waza/index.html   confused

    This is one of the points that fuels the fire of confusion. Not even Kodokan are systematically using de-ashi-barai. So why should anyone else? As mentioned before you don't see this discrepancy in any other Kodokan technique. For some reason de-ashi-harai is accepted, how come?

    When you have to write a quality paper or text in English, do you then consult the US Judo Whatever Association/Federation/Union as you grammatical guide on how to write proper English, or would you instead use a proper English grammar book ?  Most judo organizations are composed of people interested in sport not of linguists and grammar scholars. This is the same in Japan or at the Kôdôkan or did you expect these to be characterized by intellectual brilliance ?

    Ryvai wrote:
    So is this a special case where both can be used? Does this have to do with the way 'ashi' is pronounced? I also see 'okuri-ashi-harai' being used sometimes, but we would have hear something like 'barai-tsurikomi-ashi' for example, hehe.

    Please, read what I wrote, there is no need to 'interpret' what I wrote. If I intended to write what you are writing, I would probably have chosen to write that instead don't you think so ?

    Even in English, in the two following words one vowel 'o' appears: "son" vs. "don't". Does the pronunciation in both words sound anything similar ?  In the words "achieve" and in the words "died" we noticed the letters "ie"; does their pronunciation sound anything similar ?  It is very strange that people start a major discussion about something minor as harai/barai when their own native language is full of things:

    - why is Berkshire pronounced 'Barkshire' but not written 'Barkshire' ?
    - Why is Worcester pronounced ˈwu̇s-tər but not written that way ?  Same for Leicester, and why is Worcestershire pronounced "werst-er-sher" and not "wor-chest-er-shy-er" ?
    - Why is Derby pronounced 'Darby' yet not written 'Darby' ?
    - Why is the English word 'segue' pronounced segway ?
    - Why is colonel pronounced /ˈkərnl/ instead of /ˈkə-lə-nel/
    - Why is the 'c' in "victuals" not pronounced ?
    - Why is Greenwich pronounced "grenitch", not "green-witch", and why then not simply writing it that way ?
    - Why is in the word "facade" the 'c' pronounced like an 's', yet "Bacardi" is not pronounced "Basardi" but "Bakardi" ?
    - Why do so many people mix up gauge and gouge when they pronounce it ?
    - Why can't you differentiate between the verbs "to affect" and "to effect", yet they are quite different ?
    - Why is "awry" pronounced "uh-re" and not "awe-ree" ?
    - Why is Ennui pronounced /ɑ̃nɥi/ or /ɒnˈwiː/ and not "eh-new-ee"?
    - Why can't almost any of your native speakers of English properly pronounce fairly simple names such as "Van Gogh", "Bernoulli" or "Poiseuille" ?
    - Why does every single American in the TV series Grimm mispronounce the word 'Wesen" while neither wdax, nor Fritz, nor me can even imagine mispronouncing it?
    - Why is "viscount" pronounced \ˈvī-ˌkau̇nt\ and not simply "vis-kau̇nt" ?
    - Why is "lieutenant" in Britain pronounced as "lef-tenant" ?
    - Why is read pronounced in a different way when it indicates present tense than when it indicates past tense, yet is written exactly the same ?
    - Why is Queue pronounced the way it is, and why do we not simply write "kyu" instead ?
    - Why do we not pronounce the 'b' in "subtle" yet write it ?


    Etc, etc.

    Please, look up the meaning of the word "phoneme": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoneme and "phonology": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonology


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:28 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Neil G

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    Re: De-ashi-harai or de-ashi-barai

    Post by Neil G on Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:28 am

    The "h"/"b" is just a pronunciation thing. To the Japanese ear it flows better. I speculate that the Kodokan entry is just using the standard romaji for 払.
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    Fritz

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    Re: De-ashi-harai or de-ashi-barai

    Post by Fritz on Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:31 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:It's simple. Japanese is written in kanji and hiragana, not in Latin script. When you attempt to write (= transliterate) Japanese into Latin script, all you get is an "approximation". There is only one way to write the term this thread is about 100% correctly, and that is: 出足払. It is in most languages not uncommon for euphonic reasons that the pronunciation of words or parts of words changes somewhat depending on the word combination.

    The old Judo Forum is now part of the secret Vatican archives, and access requires special papal permission.
    Kodokan writes it in Hiragana:  であしはらい.
    This corresponds to the transcription "de-ashi-harai". But maybe in the western world
    de-ashi-barai was a common spelling, because, the spoken word sounds like this little bit... ;-)
    And Japanese has lots of regional dialects i believe...

    So the use of the word "correct" in emanuele2 posting is not correct i think ;-)


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: De-ashi-harai or de-ashi-barai

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:10 am

    Fritz wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:It's simple. Japanese is written in kanji and hiragana, not in Latin script. When you attempt to write (= transliterate) Japanese into Latin script, all you get is an "approximation". There is only one way to write the term this thread is about 100% correctly, and that is: 出足払. It is in most languages not uncommon for euphonic reasons that the pronunciation of words or parts of words changes somewhat depending on the word combination.

    The old Judo Forum is now part of the secret Vatican archives, and access requires special papal permission.
    Kodokan writes it in Hiragana:  であしはらい.

    That depends on the instance. Sometimes they write it the other way too. Both transcriptions appear. See: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%87%BA%E8%B6%B3%E6%89%95


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