E-Judo

Judo network and forum


    The Spirit of Judo and the worldchampionship 2014

    Share
    avatar
    makoto

    Posts : 13
    Join date : 2014-05-08

    The Spirit of Judo and the worldchampionship 2014

    Post by makoto on Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:01 pm

    Here some scences from the reapeage -66kg KHAN-MAGOMEDOV (RUS) against MA (CHN).

    First KHAN-MAGOMEDOV is standing up with his foot on the stomach of MA and then he is pointing with his finger on MA, who is lying on the floor.

    In my opinion this ridiculous behavior is destroying the spirit of judo!

    There is a Shido or a Hansokumake for every little thing, but for such a behavior, which is against judo, there is only applause from the audience…

    Judo is dieing on television...
    Attachments
    WM1.jpg
    You don't have permission to download attachments.
    (12 Kb) Downloaded 51 times
    WM2.jpg
    You don't have permission to download attachments.
    (11 Kb) Downloaded 40 times


    _________________
    "Sometimes you win - sometimes you learn.", book title by John C. Maxwell
    avatar
    Davaro

    Posts : 224
    Join date : 2013-01-04
    Location : South Africa

    Re: The Spirit of Judo and the worldchampionship 2014

    Post by Davaro on Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:16 am

    Cannot agree more.

    He is basically just ridiculing his opponent whom I assume he just beat instead of taking the win as he should a loss. With humility. (I say this with just the photos as evidence - an assumption)

    If it was like that, it should be judged to be "Against the spirit of Judo" and should have been dealt with accordingly to nip such behaviour in the bud.


    _________________
    Dew wrote:
    We could have a poll - but if the majority vote for "Judo roly poly" its going to ignite fascist dictatorlike tendencies lurking within me.


    http://www.saizenjudo.wozaonline.co.za/
    avatar
    makoto

    Posts : 13
    Join date : 2014-05-08

    Re: The Spirit of Judo and the worldchampionship 2014

    Post by makoto on Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:23 am

    Now the video is online on youtube.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnFevJJAKww&list=UUeYa3QaP2n7I8SpGSqD-kUQ

    The fight between them starts at 17:00 min.


    _________________
    "Sometimes you win - sometimes you learn.", book title by John C. Maxwell
    avatar
    Ryvai

    Posts : 159
    Join date : 2013-07-16
    Location : Norway

    Re: The Spirit of Judo and the worldchampionship 2014

    Post by Ryvai on Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:27 am

    makoto wrote:Now the video is online on youtube.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnFevJJAKww&list=UUeYa3QaP2n7I8SpGSqD-kUQ

    The fight between them starts at 17:00 min.

    That was painful to look at, absolutely disgraceful.. how is it possible to not receive hansoku-make for something like this?
    avatar
    makoto

    Posts : 13
    Join date : 2014-05-08

    Re: The Spirit of Judo and the worldchampionship 2014

    Post by makoto on Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:32 am

    Ryvai wrote:
    makoto wrote:Now the video is online on youtube.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnFevJJAKww&list=UUeYa3QaP2n7I8SpGSqD-kUQ

    The fight between them starts at 17:00 min.

    That was painful to look at, absolutely disgraceful.. how is it possible to not receive hansoku-make for something like this?

    I think no real judoka will see something like this on TV...


    _________________
    "Sometimes you win - sometimes you learn.", book title by John C. Maxwell

    Emanuele2

    Posts : 141
    Join date : 2013-01-21

    Re: The Spirit of Judo and the worldchampionship 2014

    Post by Emanuele2 on Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:38 am

    It sucks... I've seen some fights this morning; really boring, they were all stalling, penalty ecc.

    jkw

    Posts : 130
    Join date : 2013-01-04

    Re: The Spirit of Judo and the worldchampionship 2014

    Post by jkw on Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:31 am

    Ryvai wrote:
    makoto wrote:Now the video is online on youtube.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnFevJJAKww&list=UUeYa3QaP2n7I8SpGSqD-kUQ

    The fight between them starts at 17:00 min.

    That was painful to look at, absolutely disgraceful.. how is it possible to not receive hansoku-make for something like this?

    Justifiably criticised by the commentators.
    avatar
    BillC

    Posts : 806
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Vista, California

    Re: The Spirit of Judo and the worldchampionship 2014

    Post by BillC on Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:08 am

    makoto wrote:Here some scences from the reapeage -66kg KHAN-MAGOMEDOV (RUS) against MA (CHN).

    First KHAN-MAGOMEDOV is standing up with his foot on the stomach of MA and then he is pointing with his finger on MA, who is lying on the floor.

    In my opinion this ridiculous behavior is destroying the spirit of judo!

    There is a Shido or a Hansokumake for every little thing, but for such a behavior, which is against judo, there is only applause from the audience…

    Judo is dieing on television...

    What, take away a medal from a Russian player on his own turf for something most people would not find to be offensive? Not going to happen. Spirit of judo? Ridiculous.

    Nah ... don't worry ... it's not judo anyway ... the name judo was sold on the altar of gold, silver and bronze long ago. Why pretend there are any ideals? Do you see the principles of judo or the gold expressed by Kano shihan on the front of the IJF web site? Of course not. There is no market for them. This is Olympic jacket wrestling, and behavior typical of the sports entertainment business in the current day. No one would "tsk tsk" this in any other overgrown children's game between strutting peacocks. So who gives a flying ....?

    Let's have some spitting ... that will really rile things up and get some press. How about a real "golden score" on a defeated opponent?


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    GregW

    Posts : 103
    Join date : 2013-01-22
    Location : Norman, Oklahoma

    Re: The Spirit of Judo and the worldchampionship 2014

    Post by GregW on Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:54 am

    It's shameful. Unfortunately children tend to emulate champions. Sad.
    avatar
    BillC

    Posts : 806
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Vista, California

    Re: The Spirit of Judo and the worldchampionship 2014

    Post by BillC on Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:56 am

    GregW wrote:It's shameful.  Unfortunately children tend to emulate champions.  Sad.

    That's true indeed.

    When was the last time one saw anyone gush about the quiet display of manners in an athlete? No, those people are "boring" in most cultures. Check out simple table manners among kids lately? If they can't do that, if that's not what Mom and Dad are insisting on, then why expect any concept of etiquette elsewhere? My previous statement had a certain amount of hyperbole ... but not by much. "The System" tends to reward ... financially ... bad behavior. Why? Because it puts eyes on the event. Paying eyes.

    So while Sheldon and Dave can notice and comment, any real discouragement is unlikely.

    What can we do in our dojo?

    1. Behave better ourselves. For example, at the shiai are we shouting angrily from the chair trying to influence and control the game for the player? Or are we there making sure our athlete is ready, then just taking notes for later review?

    2. Do we have standards of etiquette in the dojo? Not because we want to show how Japanesey we are, not to "discipline" kids with thousands of punitive tasks to "toughen them up," but simply to establish the concept of intentionally following rules and habits in a group but of our own volition.

    3. Do we come down hard on jerks and bullies, no matter how "good" they are? I mean really remove them from sight. "Go home kid. Tell your parents you are welcome back when you can behave in a civil manner?" Most kids with behavior problems can handle physical abuse ... push ups, being thrown by sensei, etc ... most of the same kids hate isolation and fear abandonment by the group.

    Finally, do we really teach the judo of Jigoro Kano, have we even bothered to learn it? Or are we so enamored of the children's game of Olympic jacket wrestling that we make winning the only real goal?


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    TheWizardofOdds

    Posts : 49
    Join date : 2013-06-13

    Re: The Spirit of Judo and the worldchampionship 2014

    Post by TheWizardofOdds on Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:21 am

    I noticed this right away. The commentators only saw it after the replays and to me, it was obvious. I totally agree. His behaviour made me wish for him to lose his remaining fight. I remember Galstyan being disrespectful to Ebinuma in London too. I hope that the commentator did say as he would to KM about this. As was mentioned earlier, so many fights have penalties given for so little and when someone does something like this they walk away unscathed.
    avatar
    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 790
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA

    Re: The Spirit of Judo and the worldchampionship 2014

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:04 am

    BillC wrote:
    GregW wrote:It's shameful.  Unfortunately children tend to emulate champions.  Sad.

    That's true indeed.  

    When was the last time one saw anyone gush about the quiet display of manners in an athlete?  No, those people are "boring" in most cultures.  Check out simple table manners among kids lately?  If they can't do that, if that's not what Mom and Dad are insisting on, then why expect any concept of etiquette elsewhere?  My previous statement had a certain amount of hyperbole ... but not by much.  "The System" tends to reward ... financially ... bad behavior.  Why?  Because it puts eyes on the event.  Paying eyes.

    So while Sheldon and Dave can notice and comment, any real discouragement is unlikely.

    What can we do in our dojo?

    1.  Behave better ourselves.  For example, at the shiai are we shouting angrily from the chair trying to influence and control the game for the player?  Or are we there making sure our athlete is ready, then just taking notes for later review?

    2.  Do we have standards of etiquette in the dojo?  Not because we want to show how Japanesey we are, not to "discipline" kids with thousands of punitive tasks to "toughen them up," but simply to establish the concept of intentionally following rules and habits in a group but of our own volition.

    3.  Do we come down hard on jerks and bullies, no matter how "good" they are?  I mean really remove them from sight.  "Go home kid.  Tell your parents you are welcome back when you can behave in a civil manner?"  Most kids with behavior problems can handle physical abuse ... push ups, being thrown by sensei, etc ... most of the same kids hate isolation and fear abandonment by the group.

    Finally, do we really teach the judo of Jigoro Kano, have we even bothered to learn it?  Or are we so enamored of the children's game of Olympic jacket wrestling that we make winning the only real goal?

    I agree with all 3 and do my best to implement them at our dojo. I've especially got no tolerance for bullying or hurting other kids, inappropriate use of force, etc. I haven't had any parents disagree with me yet on any of the above 3, either. Most seem very glad to see some sort of back-up to what they try to instill at home, but gets severely diluted by popular culture (school, Internet, video, TV).

    One thing that I have to work on more is not getting pissed at crappy refereeing. Refs make honest mistakes, as I did when I reffed a lot, and the good one's feel bad about that. 3 good refs on the tatami makes a huge difference...the whole (usually partial) camera system used now isn't an improvement IMO, and the arrogance of some of the refs that man the cameras is truly amazing a times...apparently it's viewed as some sort of privilege to get to sit there and pass judgement on the single ref out on the tatami.

    Oops, rant off...


    _________________
    Falling for Judo Since 1980

    beyondgrappling

    Posts : 73
    Join date : 2013-01-26

    Re: The Spirit of Judo and the worldchampionship 2014

    Post by beyondgrappling on Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:44 pm

    It is terrible that the Russian did this but Olympic champion Isaev was also very disrespectful after beating the Japanese judoka in the -73kg final of the Olympic Games.

    But giving a hansoku make to a Russian in Russia is not going to happen - ever. Especially after a medal won.
    In the end this is only incident out of the entire world championships. We need to look after and cultivate a high level of respect from the Judoka in or own clubs.
    avatar
    noboru

    Posts : 583
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Czech Republic

    victory poses in kendo

    Post by noboru on Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:24 am

    Judo rules and referees could learn from kendo. Here is interesting video about victory poses in one kendo match.

    The player receive hansoku after his valid scoring and doing small victory poses with your hand. If the judo and kendo could use for education and developing self (are BUDO), it could be project in rules and referees acting.

    You can look at it from 2:30 ... 3:23 valid strike for white, white kendoka goes to start position and makes small victory poses with hand. Main referee sees it and calls the meeting with other two referrees. After meeting he canceled the valid point.  

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVmTVzz2SOc

    ... wrote:According to ZNKR (All Japan Kendo Federation) director Matsunaga:
    Undoubtedly, if the player strikes a victory pose in a kendo shiai after the point is awarded, it will be withdrawn. Good etiquette is very important in kendo, and a victory pose is seen as discourteous behaviour towards one's opponent, so the umpires have the authority to withdraw the point.
    From the shinpan rules:
    If a competitor displays inappropriate behaviour, even after the chief umpire has pronounced a valid strike the umpires can, following consultation, withdraw the verdict.


    Last edited by noboru on Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:33 am; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    noboru

    Posts : 583
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Czech Republic

    Re: The Spirit of Judo and the worldchampionship 2014

    Post by noboru on Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:29 am

    Judo in the words of Isao Okano-Sensei
    http://www.judo-voj.com/contents/okano.html

    Voice of Japan wrote:4. Riner’s manners

    Last September in Tokyo at the open-weight category finals of the World Judo Championships, when France’s Teddy Riner lost by decision, it was reported that he was dissatisfied with the referees’ decision and left the mat without giving the “rei” bow. I wasn’t there to see it in person, but if the media reports are correct, it is a serious problem. Judo begins and ends with “rei.” You might have lost or disagreed with the decision, but leaving without “rei” is the same as starting a brawl.
    Down through the years, judo in France has been taught as judo should be, so it is my expectation that this incident has not been overlooked. It would be strange if those in French judo circles did not caution Riner or serve him with a penalty, and could lower France’s reputation. Japan herself should have given a warning on this matter. Many young people and children learning judo here in Japan were watching through television and other broadcasts. “Judo Renaissance” has been emphasizing manners and respect. Japan should have lodged a protest. If Japan is weak at voicing her opinions on an international level, then she should join with France and speak out on this subject.


    Japan/Pacific INTERVIEW - YASUHIRO YAMASHITA
    http://www.yamashitayasuhiro.com/kouenroku/060308/english.html

    Yasuhiro Yamashita wrote:And yet, I understand that judo is not so popular in the United States, which is the most powerful nation in the world of sport. Is this really so?
    In the United States, karate and taekwondo are more popular than judo. It seems that there has not been any live television coverage of judo from the Olympic Games since the Los Angeles games of 1984, which was when I won a gold medal. This means that judo is considered a minor sport in the United States.
    How can this situation be changed, and what is required to make the sport of judo more popular in the US? I once put these questions to a vice-president of the giant media corporation, NBC. The answers that I got at that time included the need for the terminology of judo to be changed to English, that the competitors should show their emotions more, and that the nagewaza throwing techniques should have a points system.
    In recent years, judo has been taking steps to make itself more easily understood by a global audience. These steps include the introduction of colored judo suits and the extension of matches. However, there is no need to suggest that English is better than Japanese in order for Americans to understand the sport more easily, although it I think it may be better to use a mat rather than tatami.
    I believe that the essence of judo should be protected at all costs. This essence is composed of, “Japanese language,” “courtesy and respect toward one’s opponent” and an “attitude that sets great value on the Ippon technique.” If these vital aspects of judo are lost, then the sport loses all the values that it has come to represent. In particular, I believe that the values of courtesy and respect are a most important foundation of the sport. In judo, even if you are victorious, you should avoid all temptation to show off, or to celebrate, and should maintain self-restraint and composure.

    Yasuhiro Yamashita wrote:
    Why is that?
    In judo, compassion and sympathy are regarded as important. This way of thinking comes from bushido, the moral code of the samurai, which states that one should warmly offer one’s hand in sympathy toward the weak and those in despair. Also, in judo, the opponent is never to be thought of as the enemy. If you have an opponent, then you have the opportunity to improve and to grow as a competitor. This means that we are always taught to hold on to the notion of respect toward our opponents.
    “Courtesy” is the form that this notion takes in our way of behaving. It is not enough simply to attach importance to the defeat of the opponent. In addition, it is vital to show respect toward one’s opponent through courtesy, and this is the true essence of judo. A judo match begins and ends with a rei (the bow). I think it likely this structure is unique amongst Olympic sports.


    Gus

    Posts : 136
    Join date : 2013-03-01

    Re: The Spirit of Judo and the worldchampionship 2014

    Post by Gus on Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:09 am

    I suggest that we write to the ijf president to suggest penalties for abuse of etiquette.
    Before writing this off as futile bear in mind that that as a large organisation the ijf is sensitive to criticism like any other. In the uk if an mp receives one message of complaint it is considered to be the view of a larger amount of people (it used to be one letter = 1000 people though this has no doubt changed as a result of the web). A large percentage of judoka are kids and parents often send their kids to do judo because they believe they are learning to respect themselves and others. So it is in the interests of the ijf to consider the views of their "market". The ijf presidents email details can be found on their webpage here :

    president@ijf.org

    http://www.intjudo.eu/Organization

    There are other emails listed but I think we should agree on sendig to one email adress for maximum impact.

    Zankou

    Posts : 2
    Join date : 2014-09-19

    Re: The Spirit of Judo and the worldchampionship 2014

    Post by Zankou on Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:26 am

    You may be surprised to learn that in BJJ there are penalties for such things and they are applied even in medal matches. In the BJJ World Championships last year, Ary Farias famously won the gold medal in his division, but then had it taken away for excessive victory celebration --- to his shock and dismay.

    If it can be done in BJJ, which has comparatively loose and informal etiquette, I can't imagine why it couldn't be applied in judo competition as well.

    GregW

    Posts : 103
    Join date : 2013-01-22
    Location : Norman, Oklahoma

    Re: The Spirit of Judo and the worldchampionship 2014

    Post by GregW on Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:21 am

    I agree with much of what has been said here.  I would offer two suggestions.  There is a principle in teaching known as "extinction" when bad behaviors are manifested.  In many cases, bad behavior will diminish if it is not given attention.  The more we concentrate on glaring bad behavior, the more attention it gets, and it is rewarded by that attention.  Reward good behavior and praise that which we would like to see more of and it will increase.  

    The other suggestion has to do with the rules.  Hansoku make for small offenses like touching a leg are understood to be unreasonable by a large contingent of judo players.  Although my club has not yet had the opportunity to compete in a freestyle judo tournament, we practice under similar rules.  The overall philosophy is that competitors should decide the outcome of the match, not the referees.  Perhaps with senior players, we should allow points for ippon and allow the match to continue until a submission is obtained.  At the end of the match, there's no question who won.  The points or the submission speak for themselves.  Such action would be exciting to spectators and challenging to competitors.

    Save hansoku make for egregious examples of unsportsmanlike conduct or intentional use of dangerous techniques (kani basami, dojime, etc.)
    avatar
    seatea

    Posts : 211
    Join date : 2013-01-19
    Location : England.

    Re: The Spirit of Judo and the worldchampionship 2014

    Post by seatea on Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:56 am

    Zankou wrote:You may be surprised to learn that in BJJ there are penalties for such things and they are applied even in medal matches.  In the BJJ World Championships last year, Ary Farias famously won the gold medal in his division, but then had it taken away for excessive victory celebration --- to his shock and dismay.

    If it can be done in BJJ, which has comparatively loose and informal etiquette, I can't imagine why it couldn't be applied in judo competition as well.

    You look familiar...

    Sponsored content

    Re: The Spirit of Judo and the worldchampionship 2014

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:47 am