E-Judo

Judo network and forum


    Kanos examples of Seiryoku Zenyo or Jita Kyoei for everyday life

    Share

    noboru

    Posts : 553
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Czech Republic

    Ronald's Désormeaux quote from book “Mind over Muscle” by sensei Naoki Murata

    Post by noboru on Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:31 pm

    From Ronald Désormeaux - JUDO-RON 59 - Kodokan Pilgrimage: http://api.ning.com/files/hIW-nkyw6kzSMm3x09lj3hj1ifanLAx82qXlCIFcIGSpE8CzrbNMArzgBVb8w6u-v6SbvdzxcMaXKn7iRW2hA4X2getblHOE/JUDORON59KodokanPilgrimage.pdf


    Let us close with the remarks of Jigoro Kano as captured on page 140 in the book “Mind over Muscle” by sensei Naoki Murata: “It is not good to pursue only what interests you. If something is beneficial, you should practice it regardless of how little it interests you. Your immediate interest cannot be used to your permanent benefit.”
    Our devotion to practice kata as often as possible and our desire to experiment with each one will be our allies.

    noboru

    Posts : 553
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Czech Republic

    Kano’s calligraphy Jyundô-Seïsyô / 順道制勝 meaning

    Post by noboru on Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:57 am

    Source: http://100yearlegacy.org/english/Kano_Jigoro/Calligraphy/


    Calligraphy and Philosophy of Prof. Jigoro Kano

    Prof. Jigoro Kano learned calligraphy and Chinese literature since he was young. Prof. Kano was also a master of calligraphy and was left a number of works to his disciples. His calligraphy can be found not only in those phrases from “Shisho-gokyô (the Four Books and Five Classics of Confucianism, known as the Nine Chinese Classics /四書五経)” but also from his own coined words.

    One of Kano’s disciples, Muneo Shioya M.D., examined the number of phrases Kano used in his calligraphy the following words repeatedly (Kano Jigoro, Kodonkan ed., 1964: 665).
    Jyundô-Seïsyô / 順道制勝 81
    Seiryoku-Zenyo / 精力善用 66
    Tsutomureba Kanarazu Tassu / 力必達 21
    Shin-shin Jizai / 心身自在 12
    Jinryoku / 尽力 11
    Onore wo Nashite Yo wo Ekisu / 成己益世 8
    Seiryoku Saizen Katsuyo / 精力最善活用 5
    Jita-Kyoeï / 自他共栄 5
    Onore wo Nasu/ 己成 5
    Shu-ko Chijin / 修己治人 3

    It is claimed that there are up to 226 writings Prof. Kano left.

    Among others, the most frequent phrase written was “順道制勝 (Jyundô-Seïsyô).” This phrase highlights Kano’s belief that: “regardless of winning or losing, you need to follow the right path and, even if you lose by following this right path, it is more valuable than winning being against the path." (Jigoro Kano, “In the spirit of cultural philosophy of Kodokan Judo”, in Yuko-no Katsudou, Vol.8, No.2, 1922).

    Prof. Kano’s calligraphy illustrates his values in education and judo and his wish for world peace. Kano’s message in calligraphy, which can still be found hung on the walls of Judojôs (training place for judo) and schools across Japan, provides a strong message to this date.



    Jigoro Kano’s Penname

    Prof. Kano’s penname, until he was 60, was “Kônan (甲南).” During his 60's, he wrote under the name “Shinkosaï (進乎斎)” changing it again to “Ki-Issaï (帰一斎)” in his 70’s.

    The name “Kônan” was chosen after Rokko mountain (六甲山) near Kano’s hometown, and hence this was chosen as his first penname.

    “Shinkosaï” was inspired by a phrase of Zhuangzi (荘子), an ancient Chinese philosopher. Echoing an ancient story regarding a cook who valued “the way” more than skills, Prof. Kano intended to include the value-based meaning in his penname “Shinkosaï” stressing the importance of pursuing one's path as a human being rather than acquiring skills.

    It is presumed that “Ki-Itsu (帰一)” of “Ki-Issaï (帰一斎)” represents the phrase of the Chinese Confucianist , “even though hundreds of royal laws would not be the same, things come back to the same place (百王乃法不同 所帰者一也).”

    In 1912, Eichi Shibusawa and Jinzo Naruse founded “Ki-Itsu Association (帰一協会)” aiming to further study the fundamental principles shared in ethics, religion, and philosophies. With this kind of social trend, Prof. Kano also pursued his fundamental principle.

    He mentioned that, “to expound the moral philosophy, it would be possible to do so based on a certain theory or religion for those people who have a theory or religion themselves. However, for those who don’t have any, it would be very difficult to make them understood. Unless the moral philosophy is expounded grounded on the fundamental principle that anyone can comprehend, it would be difficult to expound and prevail the moral philosophy in a real sense.”

    He continued by stressing that “this means Jita-Kyoei…as long as people live together, the mutual reconciliation and collaboration is essential; people should concede and assist each other.” (Jigoro Kano dictation by Torahei Ochiai, “Kano Jigoro as Judoka, 6”, in Sakkô, Vol.7, No.4, 1928).

    Kano therefore intended to express his fundamental principles of “Jita-Kyoei” by using his penname, “Ki-Issaï” with the belief that the principle can be accepted for all the people.

    (Article supported by Prof. Hisashi Sanada, University of Tsukuba)


    ----------------------------
    other explanation of Jyundô-Seïsyô from Haruki Uemura (current president of Kodokan). Text from his New Year's Message (2013)

    According to our materials, before 1945, Kano Shihan’s most popular calligraphy, which was framed and hung on the wall of school dojo throughout Japan, was the four character idiom #1 Jundo-Seisho: “Follow the Way – Gain Victory”. The term “Jundo” (the ‘do’ in Judo meaning the ‘Way’) is found in the “Li Ji” (the ancient Confucian ‘Book of Rites’#2 known as ‘Raiki’ in Japanese) and in “Kansho” (the history of the Chinese Han Dynasty), while the term “Seisho” is first found in ”The Art of War” by Sun Tzu (known as Sonshi in Japanese). It is said that Kano Shihan combined these terms to create this four character idiom, which means: if you follow the correct principles of Judo #3 without being obsessed with the result, you will win naturally; even losing while following Judo’s principles has more value than winning by violating the principles.

    #1 Short, four-character idioms called yojijukugo are traditionally used to convey wisdom in Japanese culture.

    #2 One of the ‘Five Classics’, ancient Chinese Confucian books written before 300 BC and studied in traditional Japanese, Edo era education. Kano shihan’s early education included the study of the Five Classics.

    #3 The Judo principles:
    Seiryoku-Zenyo: maximum efficient use of energy
    Jita-kyoei: mutual prosperity for self and others


    ------------------------

    from book The Way of Judo: A Portrait of Jigoro Kano and His Students Author: John Stevens

    Jundo Seisho (順道制勝) . "Following the Way Produces Victory." Jundo is a Confucian concept meaning "proper behaviour", "maintain high principles", and "to follow the natural course of things." In judo, seisho means "achieve the goal" and "realize great results." With eightyone examples, this way by far the most common calligraphy on display.
    Jundo Seisho has second verse that Kano added on occassion Gyofu Gaijin () , "The Best Behaviour Harms No One"



    noboru

    Posts : 553
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Czech Republic

    Thoughts on the judo maxim of ‘mutual welfare and benefit’ in training By Stuart Jones

    Post by noboru on Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:40 am

    Source: http://newtowndojo.com/2014/07/12/mutual-welfare-and-benefit-jita-kyoei-in-training/

    MUTUAL WELFARE AND BENEFIT (JITA KYOEI) IN TRAINING
    Thoughts on the judo maxim of ‘mutual welfare and benefit’ in training
    By Stuart Jones

    Something I have come to realize as student of martial arts is that we all can have a positive impact on our club regardless of our age, gender, economic standing or rank within the art itself. There are many things big and small that we can do as individuals that will have a positive impact on our club. I really think it’s a matter of starting with the Judo principle of ‘mutual welfare and benefit’ and looking to apply it in whatever ways we can.

    In this blog, I want to explore how we apply the principle of ‘mutual welfare and benefit’ specifically in our training sessions.

    To put this into context, I am talking about what we do during a training session as individual students that impacts positively on another student’s individual development. Expanding further, as one student increases their knowledge and ability, those around them are encouraged to increase their own knowledge and ability too. For Example in Judo when Tori is learning to throw, Uke is learning to fall, as Uke becomes better at falling Tori can perform more advanced throws. This is what I would like us all to take a moment to reflect on individually, so we can all be mindful of ‘mutual welfare and benefit’ during training and become even better training partners for each other.

    I think back to when I first started Judo and I can remember I would attempt to apply whatever techniques I had been shown at the time in ne-waza or randori and when they failed or were countered I would get frustrated and want to give up – especially if I was tired. I can remember during those times the senior students saying “keep thinking, keep trying”, “don’t give up”. I remember tapping out because “there was no way I was going to escape” or “they were just too fast, too big or too strong”. I remember them saying “Okay, take a rest if you need to” with a frustrated smile. How I thought back then was that it was all about my own improvement, my fitness, increasing my technical ability, I did not really consider the other students at all. I was not really worried if they improved. I was all about what I got out of training and my own progress. What I didn’t realize at those early stages, was that my progress was very closely related the progress of those around me and I could increase my knowledge much more efficiently when the other students were also increasing theirs. I eventually realized that the other students weren’t just ‘other students’ they were my training partners. Each and every judo encounter was and still is a partnership, where the learning and improvement of both students is significantly enhanced when each person adopts that basic mentality of mutual welfare and benefit.

    We all go through times where we need to take a little more at training to improve our own knowledge – and there can be very good reasons for this – but we should always look for ways to give back whenever possible.

    Let’s be honest, how many times have you found yourself exhausted in ne-waza or randori with your training partner in a stronger position and you gave up just because you are in an uncomfortable position? Could you have continued on? Even, if it was only to be put into another uncomfortable position or perhaps a submission? Could you have continued for that little bit longer? While I understand that we all have varying degrees of experience, fitness and physical ability, this is the worst time to give up. I know the reasons because I have been there too – “I couldn’t escape”, “they were only going to get me in an arm-lock/choke anyway!” Okay I get it, it is really tough to keep going in those situations but let’s think in terms of mutual welfare and benefit and ask:

    Has your partner been given a chance to test themselves?
    How can they improve when they don’t actually get to attempt to apply the techniques under pressure and resistance?
    How are you going to improve and learn how to defend or counter those techniques?
    Consider that perhaps you would have escaped, if you had only tried, or perhaps they do apply the submission – that’s when the real benefits all start to come and we all have an opportunity to improve together. They may learn that they need to refine their technique, you learn timing on an escape or counter, they have the opportunity to practice another technique in response if you escape and get to try another counter… and so on and on it goes!

    Don’t get me wrong – you should take a rest if you need one – this is a safety issue – but please, be mindful of the impact on your training partner. Next time let’s ask ourselves:

    Can I safely continue for just one more minute?
    Can I safely push my spirit a little harder just so my partner can push theirs?
    Can I safely make the effort to keep going until Sensei calls Matte and then take that rest?
    We all want to improve individually and we will – but we will all improve so much more efficiently if we work together. The Judo maxim of ‘mutual welfare and benefit’ means we all positively encourage each other to increase our knowledge, fitness and Budo spirit together as individuals and as a club.

    noboru

    Posts : 553
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Czech Republic

    seiryoku zenyo jitakyôei in Nihon Jujutsu

    Post by noboru on Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:50 pm

    http://nihonjujutsu.com/history.php?HistoryID=7

    Nihon Jujutsu - Technical and Philosophical Origins

    The philosophical basis of Nihon Jujutsu can be found in the Japanese axiom, ???????? (seiryoku zenyo jitakyôei), which can be read “Commit oneself to maximum efficiency, and mutual benefit in all endeavors.” This phrase, first coined by Kano Jigoro, the founder of Kodokan judo, refers both to applications of the physical art during training, and to the larger philosophical concept of utilizing budo as a catalyst for personal growth.

    Concisely, “maximum efficiency” in training allows one to apply techniques before an opponent has a chance to react and overcome opposition with a minimum of force. “Mutual benefit in all endeavors,” as applied to practice in the dojo, serves as a guiding principle that permits all practitioners to train rigorously without undue injury. Common examples can be found in kendo, judo, karatedo, and many other martial arts where participants agree to abide by specific rules of conduct in order to ensure a safe training environment.

    At a speech at the University of Southern California (USC) in 1932, on the occasion of 11th Olympiad, Kano Jigoro had the following to say about the application of ‘committing oneself to maximum efficiency, and mutual benefit in all endeavors’ in every day life:


    Upon careful observation of the world today, despite the myriad of moral instruction found in various religions, philosophies, and traditions, all intended to improve mans’ moral character, there can be no doubt that strife is found at all levels of society.

    This state of affairs clearly indicates that society lacks a means to promote harmony and positively influence the lives of men and women everywhere. However, I believe the philosophy of ‘maximum efficiency and mutual benefit and welfare’ contains an ideal with which people everywhere could remodel society in such a way as to inspire greater cooperation and satisfaction throughout the world.


    Nihon Jujutsu can be said to embody the spirit of Kano Jigoro’s philosophy of building a moral society through the practice and teaching of budo. Specifically, through physical training practitioners cultivate methods for controlling opponents, and thereby learn principles and techniques for overcoming adversity in everyday life. The underlying theme is that negative results are minimized through the application of a rational and flexible response to all situations.

    According to the founder, Sato Shizuya, “the philosophy of seiryoku zenyo jitakyôei is both practical, and appropriate for modern life. In ancient, or earlier times, the methods of bujutsu, techniques developed primarily for the elimination of an opponent by whatever needs necessary, may have been relevant only for members of the military or law enforcement agencies. Whereas, Nihon Jujutsu is a system based on respect for one’s fellow man, for the community as a whole and is truly a method of living with one another in a modern world.”

    noboru

    Posts : 553
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Czech Republic

    true meaning of judo tournaments

    Post by noboru on Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:16 pm

    From book The Way of Judo Portrait of Jigoro Kano and His Students by John Stevens - in the part about Minoru Mochizuki - about true meaning of judo tournaments

    When Mochizuki proudly reported to Kano, "Today I won two tournaments, held at different colleges," Kano replied, "So that is why you are training in judo? To win tournaments? You should have first told me what you learned today from your experiences, not whether or not you won!"

    NBK

    Posts : 1060
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Kanos examples of Seiryoku Zenyo or Jita Kyoei for everyday life

    Post by NBK on Wed Dec 16, 2015 2:32 am

    Mochizuki Minoru was, by all accounts, a tremendous budoka. He had great abilities across a number of arts, and introduced them all into his school. Typically, it seems that many of them have fallen away, leaving only a portion of what he desired to be taught.

    noboru

    Posts : 553
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Czech Republic

    Kano's quotes about judo contest sense

    Post by noboru on Wed Dec 16, 2015 5:40 pm

    From the same book about Kano's view about judo contest sense (page 99):

    This is how Kano wanted a contest to be: "A contest is a learning process for oneself and one's opponent. Do not be elated by a win, or disappointed by a loss. Do not relax if your opponent is weaků do not be afraid if he is strong. The single goal is to find the right path for each other." He said, "I instituted formal competition not to show a student how to win at any cost but how to lose with grace and humility."

    noboru

    Posts : 553
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Czech Republic

    Rei as aspect Jita-Kyoei

    Post by noboru on Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:40 pm

    Judo and Rei - Etiquette
    Source: http://kodokanjudoinstitute.org/en/courtesy/etiquette/
    http://kodokanjudoinstitute.org/en/courtesy/etiquette/

    Judo and Rei - Etiquette
    The spirit and protocols of Rei are one of the fundamental aspects when learning Judo (i.e. Seiryoku-Zenyo and Jita-Kyoei) in the dojo. At the same time, Rei also becomes indispensable in one's daily life.
    As described in the "Judo Competition Etiquette" rules that were enacted in 1967:
    Upon the first meeting of the contestants, the match will begin with a Rei (bow) as a demonstration that each recognises the character of the other person, and is showing respect towards them. More than just a way for people to associate with each other, the spirit of Rei serves as a system to preserve social order, and Reiho (etiquette) are the protocols that represent it. Practitioners who learn Seiryoku-Zenyo and Jita-Kyoei deepen their appreciation of this spirit of Rei, but it is important that they outwardly display proper etiquette as a manifestation of this.
    In the Kodokan, the spirit of Rei is afforded great significance, and we emphasise the importance of etiquette as a representation of this spirit. In Judo practice or competition, the protagonists look to defeat each other as they grapple. If the spirit of Rei is lost, the encounter descends into a violent struggle, a fight, and the possibility to learn anything of any value falls by the wayside. It is easy to become excited and resort to unscrupulous behaviour when obsessed with victory or defeat. However, Judo bouts provide an important opportunity for forging one's mind and body through keeping calm and reflecting on the spirit of Rei to maintain self-control.

    Etiquette, otherwise known as Reiho, is the physical manifestation of the spirit of Rei. Zarei (seated bow) and Ritsurei (standing bow) are usually taught in the dojo. These two types of Reiho are the focus of instruction, but they are not everything. As Reiho is the method of expressing the spirit of Rei, it is important to understand that this spirit must not be lacking, notwithstanding of the situation, time, or way it is expressed. When interacting with others, one judges the situation and acts in a specific way. You must ask yourself whether you are truly representing the Judo ideal and the spirit of Rei. The point being, there is a difference between merely complying with the forms of Reiho, and performing it the true spirit that underlies it.

    After every bow, reflect on the spirit with which it was executed. Let us strive to do correct and polite Rei, brimming with sincerity. With the first Rei in a Judo practice, you and your opponent join as partners, and the greeting expressed means, "Let's start to refine ourselves together through this training". The Rei at the end of practice is an expression of gratitude: "Thank you for being my partner." Rei performed in the dojo, it can be said, should be observed at all times in order to enact the spirit of Jita-Kyoei in one's everyday life.
    Reference: Shinichi OIMATSU, "Japanese Budo: Judo"

    noboru

    Posts : 553
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Czech Republic

    Rei as aspect Jita-Kyoei II

    Post by noboru on Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:47 pm

    Judo and Rei - Its Spirit
    http://kodokanjudoinstitute.org/en/courtesy/spirit/

    Judo and Rei - Its Spirit

    In the Judo dojo, we are able to learn and engage in bouts because we have training partners. Therefore, we should take care to show them every courtesy. When entering a competition or cheering on others, we should suppress the desire to win at all costs, making reckless movements without caring if we cause injury, and mistreating our opponent. Because the budo arts are mainly composed of fierce techniques and attacking movements, if the spirit of respect and harmony is neglected, the bout will descend into little more than a violent conflict. The expression "Budo begins with Rei and ends with Rei" emphasises the spirit of respect needed to prevent such a regrettable occurrence, and is very important in Judo today. The stronger you become, the spirit of Rei and the attitude of Jita-Kyoei must be maintained all the more.
    Unpleasantness directed towards you from a senior must not in turn be passed on to a junior. Offensive behaviour emanating from a person in front of you, should not be channelled back to a person behind you. It is true in many cases, however, that one comes to understand what is unacceptable only when it is done to them for the first time. Those who practise Judo should always consider whether or not their conduct towards others is causing discomfort or bother. The root of the spirit of Rei that we embody in Judo is precisely to respect others, and to not initiate acrimony. As a matter of courtesy, we demonstrate Rei to people above us, our peers, and those below us. Now, however, the Rei that we must earnestly reflect on is towards those whom we cannot directly see: that is, the Rei of civic virtue and positive social contribution.

    In modern society, although we increasingly see and hear of actions that are lacking in the spirit of Rei, those engaged in Judo training more than anybody else should cultivate the fundamental attitude of Rei in the dojo. Without allowing Rei to diminish even a little, it is incumbent on us to continue holding in esteem its spirit in the course of our daily lives. I hope that this will become a model for society.
    Reference: Shinichi OIMATSU, "Japanese Budo: Judo"

    noboru

    Posts : 553
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Czech Republic

    Re: Kanos examples of Seiryoku Zenyo or Jita Kyoei for everyday life

    Post by noboru on Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:30 pm

    Text from one plate (Kanos saying) from Jigoro Kano festival in Kodokan (end of November 2015)

    "If one wins in accord with the Way, or even if one loses in accord with the Way, one is not defeated.
    Even if one loses while acting in accord with the Way, there is greater value than if one wins by departing from the Way."

    noboru

    Posts : 553
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Czech Republic

    An Analysis of Judo Competition by Donn Draeger

    Post by noboru on Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:18 pm


    An Analysis of Judo Competition by Donn Draeger
    http://judoinfo.com/draeger.htm


    An Analysis of Judo Competition by Donn Draeger

    Judo, as a classical budo, or martial "way", of Japan, was intended by its founder, Jigoro Kano, to be less martial and to be rather a vehicle for the spiritual and physical development of man; it was deliberately designed as an educative system which gives built-in play man's ability to demonstrate perseverance in useful endeavor. By perseverance, regardless of the superficial achievements (rank, contest successes, prestige), every judoist can realize improvement of mental and physical self, and can be prepared, therefore, to make a better application of his mental and physical energies in his daily living. Idealistically, it was additionally hoped by Kano that such concomitants would bring about a more cooperatively-harmonious society, since it was composed of persons matured as responsible citizens by Judo.

    Idealistic as this concept of Kano's is, none but the most uninformed will argue that it is an acceptable one, or that it is not worth striving for. But what is the direction of today's Judo training? Where is it leading to and what benefits does it produce? These are vital questions. Let us stop a moment and think intelligently about present-day Judo.

    We must see it in comparison with original Kano Judo if we are to make a valid evaluation. Who, as among instructors of Judo today, has troubled to delve into the facts and circumstances surrounding original Judo? This is a natural beginning point, one from which honest analysis in comparison must them. Sources for this information, it is true, are hard to come by, for the decades have all but plowed them under and dimmed the light surrounding them. Yet, the instructor who makes today's Judo his life must be charged with the responsibility for obtaining the truth about original Judo.

    It can be argued that even original Judo is not a budo form, for the founder, himself, painstakingly removed that which he considered objectionable martial tone from his teachings which, in the main, went to form Kodokan Judo. Just what constitutes a true budo form is beyond the orbit of this article, but modern-day Judo is even less within the budo sphere than was Kano's beloved Kodokan Judo.

    It is patent that no budo can house a sport form and still be a budo form. Modern-day Judo, with its concentrations on sporting aspects of Judo, thus fails to qualify at this earliest juncture from the requirements of budo forms. The bad as it may, the deviation from budo principle is not a vital essence for our discussion, and we must turn to the direct issue at hand, that of the direction of modern-day Judo training as compared with its original intent and purpose as set by the founder, Jigoro Kano.

    Make no mistake, today's Judo is not parallel to Kano's original product, not a mirror-image of it, and is more diverse from than congruent with it. Having stated a fact, there will be those who, though admitting that this is indeed true, defend the position of modern-day Judo.

    The stance which they take wrest largely on the word "progress". What has taken place by way of modification, change, amendment, and so forth to the original Judo is charged to normal progress. These defenders of modern-day Judo trends plead the orderly evolutionary process which all substance must undergo. An entity such as Judo which undergoes constant handling by the multitudes is seen never to regress, but to get better by virtue of the "improvements" being made to it. Their stance is debatable, but functionally defensible as they point to other sports which reflect similar progress -- records improve as times, distances, and performances get better. How then came Judo go backwards by the same forces working in it, on it, and for it? To these defenders I mention the handling of pieces of art, foodstuffs, beverages, and host of other things involving mechanical dynamics. Handling becomes "mishandling" more often than not, and the net result is a deterioration of the product. And there are some sport entities which have gone "backwards" by mishandling. How does this apply to Judo?

    For one thing, the Judo training system, as is in vogue in our modern-day society, is in reality a cruel system insofar as it is wanton to recognize the inexorable decline of a judoist's physical and mental powers as the judoist descends the chronological ladder, as each of us inevitably must. Modern-day Judo training manifests in this cruelty by insisting that, regardless of age or other bodily limitations, the proof of the judoist is in the contest. The judoist for advancement in rank, and once established as a yudansha comment is more often than not forced to pay himself physically against opponents far younger than knee; opponents whom he is expected to defeat if he is to gain the advancement or if used to continue his popularity via the route of respect to other judoists.

    Such an attitude has no basis in fact, neither by Judo tradition nor by physiological exactness, and it may even be argued that Judo leaders in any sector of a national movement who cherish this attitude and enforcement are actually straying away from the intrinsic purpose of Judo training.

    With respect to age-old traditional budo customs, from which Judo was designed, we find no lack of recognition of the limitations that increasing age brings upon technical skill. It is a well-known fact among budo expert teachers than a participant's technical life, his active value as a participant in any martial endeavor, is proportionate to the ma-ai necessary to that endeavor. Ma-ai is the interval between combatants or an engagement distance which permits each opponent to apply his proper actions.

    The shorter the ma-ai -- that is, the shorter the engagement distance between combatants -- the more youth and strength is required for correct functioning. Conversely, as the ma-ai increases, the needed for youth and strength diminishes; the lack of age constraint is less a handicap.

    Competitive partner-type endeavors can make is understandable. Judo with the shortest possible ma-ai, sumo with just a bit longer, kendo with a moderate ma-ai, and naginata-do with a long ma-ai are excellent examples in cases in point. Statistics show that top-level Judo champions expire prior to age 30; sumo champions find the end of the road between 30 and 35; kendo greats rein up until ages between 35-40, while naginata-do permits champions beyond the age of 40. To these competitive endeavors can be added others which do not actually compete against opponents (because of the inherent dangers should randori action be permitted) but compete against targets; kusari-gama jutsu and kyudo (chain-sickle-ball weapon tactics and traditional archery, respectively) operate at ma-ai of 20 feet or more, and the best in these specialties are the oldsters.

    Thus, ancient and medieval accumulative experience, empirical in nature, acts in support of positive physiological truths we now must recognize. The barriers of nature definitely do not allow the skills and industry of man to approach them. As truths, they are worthy of the most implicit faith that can be given to human testimony. Man is not structured to continue competitively in efficient function so as to operate on a par with his chronological juniors in the martial arts.

    Judo training, therefore, which requires the oldster to keep competitive pace with the youngster is opposed to our natural design, and is further tangential to that which the founder intended for Kodokan Judo. Kano accepted the reality of two types of Judo, one an entity in complete accord with nature – the other, substantially opposed to it.

    Jigoro Kano
    Kano defined these two types as Judo in a "high" sense (jodan Judo), and Judo in a "low" sense (godan Judo). With his definitions, he also cautioned that the latter type is more entertaining, because it is less precise, plain to the mediocre mind as more of a "game" and contains, therefore, less valuable disciplines. While its technical implications are very similar to those adopted for the "high" Judo, the end point of a "low" Judo is a short road to almost nowhere.

    I will not blandly compare the qualities of these two types of Judo, nor will I approach the less tangible areas that, though important, can appear too "sermon-like" and not interestingly readable. Instead I confine my comments to a description of some of the major issues intrinsic to "high" Judo. The reader is advised that they are qualities all lacking in the "low" form.

    Judo training, in the Kanoian sense, must always lay stress on the "harmonious development of the body muscles". This can only be possible by a study and practice of a wide range of techniques. Over-specialization in any area of Judo endeavor cannot achieve this body developmental balance. In essence, this means regulated, balanced participation in randori, kata, and shiai.

    Kano warned against a "contest over-emphasis" and the laying of too much stress on the achievement of the athletic objective. Here he had two important issues in mind. One was that competitive striving to excel in contest would invariably lead to forced, unnatural, hurry-up training methods, detrimental to the health. He urged caution against training measures which over exert the body. He writes: "... Those who aspire to be proficient in Judo must strive to avoid unnecessary fatigue of body and mind....". What he called "functional disturbances" surely are products of over-training for the contest. A "survival-of-the-fittest" type of training was always opposed by him with great vigor, in that it violates the principal of Judo, the maximum efficient use of energies. Rather, he advocated the natural, graduated study and practice of Judo.

    "Everybody a dan holder", as an approach to Judo training, was not his idea for Judo. The mass over-popularization and compulsory training by which everybody engaged simply "must" achieve, "must" acquire a black belt, never occupied his thoughts, though he hoped fervently for solid and wholesome popularity of his beloved Judo. The sacrifice of quality for quantity, that is, lowering the standards to the whims of the public so that more can come into Judo, was never his method. Judo standards exist, to be sure, and those aspiring to proficiency, those motivated enough to undertake Judo training, were welcome in the Dojo. The student had to come to Judo, as it was, not Judo to be warped, bent, and weakened, and then taken to the student.

    Kano, too, realized the limitations of advancing age, but he did not seek to penalize such persons undergoing this natural process by withholding of Judo rank or making rank advancement possible to them only through contest application. As age advanced, Kano graded the requirements to the individual, and no less was thought of the older judoist for his inability to keep contest pace with the younger, naturally-more-fit judoists.

    Just as robust youth is exempted from being "perfect" technically in kata requirements, or in a wide range of Judo skills, and knowledge that is not yet his to possess, so the oldster, too, must get compensation in his physical performances to accommodate his age, especially in the contest phase of Judo.

    "What is deficient in randori must be supplemented by kata" explains Kano in his latest technical notes. The "narrow nest" of randori is not part by the statement, but rather the fact that the contest-bent judoist will permit and encourage randori sessions which revolve mainly about his tokui-waza (pet technique) and its directly-related tactics. No wide range of Judo skills can ever be built by this training activity, for it is a mental void.

    Health, Judo training, and physical education must be correlated and, above all, must be superimposed upon the education of all judoists to realization of the fact that these qualities are to be respected, not simply the contest winnings of the judoist. The highly competitive pace, as required by contest-centered training, burns out and does long-range harm by leaving for its end point a mental skeleton of the judoists "better days". With natural decline in physical performances, which only the most determined judoists can delay by abandoning tachi situations in favor of katame one's, youthful judoists are prone to lose respect for their seniors. This is especially true in western Judo where judoists are less steeped in tradition which holds to respect of seniors. In fact, it is regrettably evident that the western judoist thinks nothing of scoffing at a weaker judoist many years his senior, even, sometimes, when that judoist was his former teacher. This attitude can never be a fertile ground for the mature development of true Judo.

    Donn F. Draeger
    As is intended by its founder, proper Judo, to be meaningful, must take into consideration and permit a "Judo-for-all" attitude which gives full recognition to the needs of the chronological ages of the judoists training.

    Editor's note: Donn F. Draeger was a scholar of Oriental history and philosophy. He did considerable academic and practical research on the martial arts and was engaged in research on the major fighting arts of Japan. As an instructor in the Kodokan's foreign section he specialized in analyzing the results of major competition as it relates to the individual player's total development. As of 1968 when this article was first published, Mr. Draeger had spent more than ten years studying at the Kodokan and, in addition to writing some ten books on Judo, was the only foreigner to be awarded official kata teaching licenses by the Kodokan, holding licenses in six of the seven recognized katas.

    Anatol

    Posts : 181
    Join date : 2014-01-20

    Re: Kanos examples of Seiryoku Zenyo or Jita Kyoei for everyday life

    Post by Anatol on Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:41 pm

    Hi Noboru

    Donn Draeger has his merits but this is an old man rant and a false dichotomy (young - old, randori/sport judo - kata/educational Judo)

    Judo can be a lot of different things with different goals and intentions for  the practitioneer.

    I see Judo as broad way, everyone can walk in his own way:

    - Judo is a "do" = way (of physical, mental, intellectual and social education)

    - Judo is a martial art (bu jitsu)

    - Judo with three ways of learning: Kata, Randori, Shiai (test together)

    - Judo is for self defence

    - Judo is a social activity

    - Judo is a recreational activity

    - Judo is a sport (competition Judo) for medals, fame and entertainment

    - Judo has also aesthetical (Kata) and philosophical elements (best use of energy, ju no ri, jita kyoei)

    - Judo as a tool to practice and use it in everyday life (best use of energy, principle of flexibility)

    - Judo is a possibility to teach something meaningful (to the next generation)

    etc. etc.


    There is no "standard way", all of us have to follow.


    Last edited by Anatol on Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:05 pm; edited 2 times in total

    noboru

    Posts : 553
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Czech Republic

    Re: Kanos examples of Seiryoku Zenyo or Jita Kyoei for everyday life

    Post by noboru on Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:04 pm

    Hi Anatol,
    you have right. You show good points about ways how practice judo. Your points are good for this discussion and watchers.

    The topic of this thread was about how Kano viewed how practice judo (Seiryoku zenyo and Jita kyoei).  Some last quotes published here are not from Kano or texts about Kano opinions, but they are from known judo teachers. It could be named as their views how practice judo or how practice Seiryoku zenyo and Jita kyoei and there could be different ways.

    In today judo could have more different ways as you wrote. I tried here look original meanings of theses views - Kano views or views about practice Seiryoku zenyo and Jita kyoei.

    Anatol

    Posts : 181
    Join date : 2014-01-20

    Re: Kanos examples of Seiryoku Zenyo or Jita Kyoei for everyday life

    Post by Anatol on Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:31 pm

    Hi Noboru

    I am not a Judo historian and Kano's views on and intentions with Judo are interesting. But there is also a tendency and idealizaion of Kano's idealistic and pedagogical approach on Judo. I am not quite sure, if Kano in his time did all in his power to meet the idealistic views in practise. It is said, that Kano did not a lot of Judo after 1890 (remember - he was 30 then) and that the progress of Kodokan Judo as an efficient martial art (yes "art" and not "way") is more a work of the Four Guardians of Judo and the increasing influence of Mifune, to make Judo to an excellent art for tachi waza and ne waza. The competetive and open spirit in randori developes a martial art and the best to proof what works and what doesn't is randori - and shiai (test together but also win and win and win at all costs ...).

    As a further point, Kano's idealistic views are also sometimes misused to keep authority, when you get older and the competition days are over. To downgrade randori and shiai and to upgrade kata and "some" philosophy, etiquette, knowledge of history, seniority and to use Kata for promotion to tighten the strings and keep authority through belt and rank.

    "Jita Kyoei" isn't really a philosophical interesting view and it's also not genuin or original. Cooperation to have success together and respect your co-worker is a quite common idealistic requirement in most componies and if you are in a chess club or in a rowing club it is quite the same.

    "Seiryoku zenyo" = "best use of energies" is more interesting because it is more specific to Judo. It is based on simplicity and naturalness and you can use this priniple in everday life. As far as I know, Kano give only a few examples i articles  and he didn't elaborate his idea of "seiryoku zenyo" in a thesis or a book.

    NBK

    Posts : 1060
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Kanos examples of Seiryoku Zenyo or Jita Kyoei for everyday life

    Post by NBK on Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:10 pm

    Anatol wrote:...

    "Jita Kyoei" isn't really a philosophical interesting view and it's also not genuin or original. Cooperation to have success together and respect your co-worker is a quite common idealistic requirement in most componies and if you are in a chess club or in a rowing club it is quite the same.

    "Seiryoku zenyo" = "best use of energies" is more interesting because it is more specific to Judo. It is based on simplicity and naturalness and you can use this priniple in everday life. As far as I know, Kano give only a few examples i articles  and he didn't elaborate his idea of "seiryoku zenyo" in a thesis or a book.

    While he didn't write exclusively about it in books or theses, Kanô shihan wrote prolifically on 'seiryoku zen'yô / jita kyôei' in many different journals and magazines. He even extended it to international relations and how nations interact.

    noboru

    Posts : 553
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Czech Republic

    'seiryoku zen'yô / jita kyôei'

    Post by noboru on Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:50 pm

    Anatol wrote:
    As a further point, Kano's idealistic views are also sometimes misused to keep authority, when you get older and the competition days are over. To downgrade randori and shiai and to upgrade kata and "some" philosophy, etiquette, knowledge of history, seniority and to use Kata for promotion to tighten the strings and keep authority through belt and rank.
    Yes, you have right. I agree.

    Anatol wrote:
    "Jita Kyoei" isn't really a philosophical interesting view and it's also not genuin or original. Cooperation to have success together and respect your co-worker is a quite common idealistic requirement in most componies and if you are in a chess club or in a rowing club it is quite the same.

    Yes, may be it not really a philosophical interesting view and it's also not genuin or original. Lot of good groups and people acting/acted with jita kyôei before Kano or without knowledges about Kano. It is not original. I think that it is not important.
    For me is important how it projected to way of judo randori for example and for Kanos advices how add own value for interpersonal relationship and society. I understand it, that  "practicing both 'seiryoku zen'yô and jita kyôei' is his message to his judo successors. FOR ME is it interesting. I think that they are easy and not sophisticated advices to the life - only two small quotes and could be together implemented for anything. We have own intellect and we could judge the implementation in sense.
    In the past the CK sensei has the same opinions as you in his early posts it this thread. CK sensei gave here some japanese sources for this thema for better understanding. I am not able process them - japanese is border for me. I am not search any best philosophy or bulletproof from academic world. If the ideas are for mass (most people), so could be easy for undestanding them. I want to understand what do 'seiryoku zen'yô and jita kyôei' mean and how it is projected to practice - and it is INTERESTING (for ME personaly).

    Anatol wrote:
    "Seiryoku zenyo" = "best use of energies" is more interesting because it is more specific to Judo. It is based on simplicity and naturalness and you can use this priniple in everday life. As far as I know, Kano give only a few examples i articles  and he didn't elaborate his idea of "seiryoku zenyo" in a thesis or a book.

    As NBK wrote... In the book "Jigoro Kano and the Kodokan - An Innovative Response To Modernisation" - and in the "Judo Memoirs of Jigoro Kano By Brian N. Watson" are some of this arcticles translated or their parts. In some his speeches in visits in Europe and IOC meetings spoke abot them too.

    Anatol

    Posts : 181
    Join date : 2014-01-20

    Re: Kanos examples of Seiryoku Zenyo or Jita Kyoei for everyday life

    Post by Anatol on Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:59 pm

    Hi NBK

    NBK wrote: While he didn't write exclusively about it in books or theses, Kanô shihan wrote prolifically on 'seiryoku zen'yô / jita kyôei' in many different journals and magazines.  He even extended it to international relations and how nations interact.  

    To write in many different jornals and magazines and extend seiryoku zenyo/jita kyoei to a political level doesn't create a philosophic work.

    If you do a philosophic work, you have to give arguments and reasoning and debate and compare your arguments with other views on the same subject and also questioning your own thoughts, to deepen the arguments. Kano only said, that doing Judo can develop your body, character, moral and your mind/spirit and through selfperfection (you also have to see the disadvantages of the confucian concept of "selfperfection") you become a "better person" and contribute to society. But what is "a better person" and what is a "good society"? This would be the point, where philosophical reasoning starts. "Peace and Harmony" is too little and too vague , because we can understand very different things under this headline. In a confucian society "peace and harmony" would be very different to "peace and harmony" in a democratic society based on constitution, civil rights and human rights. "The better person" depends on ideas, what a better person is and in philosophy you have to give rationale in a context with life and society and justice  because maybe there are wrong (general) conceptions and beliefs, what the characteristics and qualities of a person should be. In Prussia you had to be obident and doing your duties as a citizen, in Japan you had to be very loyal and to know your place in society with the correct behavior and in a modern western country, you can do what you want as long as you stay to constitution, doing no crimes/breaking no laws and paying your taxes.

    Kano was a great as educator and in systemizing Judo with it's syllabus and give Judo as a Way a bigger perspective - but he was no philosopher.


    Last edited by Anatol on Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:32 pm; edited 2 times in total

    Anatol

    Posts : 181
    Join date : 2014-01-20

    Re: Kanos examples of Seiryoku Zenyo or Jita Kyoei for everyday life

    Post by Anatol on Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:18 pm

    Hi Noboru

    I don't want to downgrade Kano's ideas of "seiryoku zenyo" and "jita kyoei".

    But it is important to see, that both are not a "world formula" and that the philosophic background is wether genuin nor unique or comprehensive.

    Quote:

    "I want to understand what do 'seiryoku zen'yô and jita kyôei' mean and how it is projected to practice - and it is INTERESTING (for ME personaly)."

    That's the point. "Ways are made by walking".  Western philosophy is for the rationale and the mind but eastern philosophy is often for practice and spirit. I am very interested in "seiryoku zenyo" (and in "hara gei"). Nature doesn't waste energy and "best use of energies" is based on simplicity and naturalness. In combination with "Ju no Ri" (principle of the soft/pliant/flexible) it is a sophisticated principle for everyday life, where we waste a lot of energies because of status, emotions, desires, ignorance, hopes, fears and so on.

    The best part - in practicing Judo (randori and kata and shiai) you get a feedback, what works and what doesn't and you can't stay in dreamland and phantasies. Like in chess - you get an ELO and you can't think you are a Grandmaster if your rating is only 1800.

    Judo is great, Kano was outstanding and to practice Judo together with respect is a joy.

    NBK

    Posts : 1060
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Kanos examples of Seiryoku Zenyo or Jita Kyoei for everyday life

    Post by NBK on Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:20 am

    Anatol wrote:Hi NBK

    NBK wrote: While he didn't write exclusively about it in books or theses, Kanô shihan wrote prolifically on 'seiryoku zen'yô / jita kyôei' in many different journals and magazines.  He even extended it to international relations and how nations interact.  

    To write in many different jornals and magazines and extend seiryoku zenyo/jita kyoei to a political level doesn't create a philosophic work.

    If you do a philosophic work, you have to give arguments and reasoning and debate and compare your arguments with other views on the same subject and also questioning your own thoughts, to deepen the arguments. Kano only said, that doing Judo can develop your body, character, moral and your mind/spirit and through selfperfection (you also have to see the disadvantages of the confucian concept of "selfperfection") you become a "better person" and contribute to society. But what is "a better person" and what is a "good society"? This would be the point, where philosophical reasoning starts. "Peace and Harmony" is too little and too vague , because we can understand very different things under this headline. In a confucian society "peace and harmony" would be very different to "peace and harmony" in a democratic society based on constitution, civil rights and human rights. "The better person" depends on ideas, what a better person is and in philosophy you have to give rationale in a context with life and society and justice  because maybe there are wrong (general) conceptions and beliefs, what the characteristics and qualities of a person should be. In Prussia you had to be obident and doing your duties as a citizen, in Japan you had to be very loyal and to know your place in society with the correct behavior and in a modern western country, you can do what you want as long as you stay to constitution, doing no crimes/breaking no laws and paying your taxes.

    Kano was a great as educator and in systemizing Judo with it's syllabus and give Judo as a Way a bigger perspective - but he was no philosopher.
    The more I read Kanô shihan's writings the more I agree with your general thought.

    In the earliest days he largely focused on the utility of judo, then its study through shugyô / tanren and their utility in developing character, and only eventually, near 30 years after establishing the Kodokan, some 20 years after sorting out its core techniques, did he establish the sayings for which he is noted. It's not clear that he had a serious philosophy in mind, but rather he repeats the same relatively shallow elements time and again.

    You strike an interesting point - as a classically Confucian-trained educator his idea of the ideal citizen would not be welcome by a wide range of more liberal readers, but even then he was relatively liberal given many of his peers.

    Anatol

    Posts : 181
    Join date : 2014-01-20

    Re: Kanos examples of Seiryoku Zenyo or Jita Kyoei for everyday life

    Post by Anatol on Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:13 pm

    Hi Noboru

    In the past the CK sensei has the same opinions as you in his early posts it this thread. CK sensei gave here some japanese sources for this thema for better understanding.
    CK is on the right track because in Meiji Era Japan opened to western thought. Herbert Spencer had some influence at this time with his "survival of the fittest" and later John Dewey with his "learning by doing". I don't know, if Kano knew the work of Pestalozzi with his system of education "Mind - Heart - Hand" for educating intellect - moral/social - practice/technique but if would fit into Kano's views of a comprehensive education. Last but not least, Kano has a confucian education and learning and doing goes hand in hand in confucian thought also the concept of selfperfection to develop your mind and moral and to contribute to peace and harmony in society.

    There is also a confucian way of learning by repeat again and again and doing this very formal. "Li" 礼 = "ritual" is important for confucianists from the very beginning, because "Li" is not only ritual as an outer form of proper behavior - it mirrors the structure of the world. If you do something in a "Li way" you do it proper and perfect.

    The confucianists gave no great effort in developing the body but in broader view, "Bu-Do" (martial way) is one part of education and "Gei-Do" (way of arts ) is the other including shodō (書道) (Japanese calligraphy) and Sadō (茶道) (Japanese tea ceremony) and playing Go 圍棋 (chinese strategy game, very complex). It's called the "Way of the Sword and the Brush". The famous swordsman Miyamoto Musashi wrote also thousends of poems in exquisite calligraphy.

    In China they call(ed) it Wen (knowing classic literature by heart, writing calligraphy and poems and playing Go) and Wu (military skills), like Yin and Yang or inner and outer aspects of education. The more funny part is the reception by the West, because they couldn't keep Wen and Wu together and in some ways misunderstood the confucian approach to education.

    Anatol

    Posts : 181
    Join date : 2014-01-20

    Re: Kanos examples of Seiryoku Zenyo or Jita Kyoei for everyday life

    Post by Anatol on Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:18 pm

    On a general note I want to write about the dangers of "self-perfection" and selfperfection can be contrarian to "best use of energies":

    Selfperfection through ever lasting learning is a confucian concept, and japanese culture is deeply influenced by (neo)confucianism. Have a look on the first line of the confucian classic "Analects" (Lunyu, Conversations): "Is it not pleasant to learn with a constant perseverance and application?" Also the opening lines of the "Sanzi Jing" (three character classic, learned by heart by every child): "Men at their birth, are naturally good. Their natures are much the same; their habits become widely different. If foolishly there is no teaching, the nature will deteriorate. The right way in teaching, is to attach the utmost importance in thoroughness." This is no coincidence - learning is very important in countries and cultures influenced by confucianism - and for sure this learning is not reduced to one field but meant in a broader sense (as Kano also does) in learning for selfperfection in a physical, intellectual, moral and social way (to contribute to society).

    On the other hand there is "best use of body and mind" or "best use of energies" and this is more a daoist concept, because it is based on naturalness and simplicity. Think of "shizen hontai" = natural rooted body/posture. "Shizen" is the same as "ziran" and "ziran" = natural, naturalness. Judo throws work because of naturalness and simplicity using all the energy (also the energy of your opponent) in a most natural way. If you throw natural, you throw perfect.

    I try it with an analogy:

    A confucian way/method (do) is to row or to swim up a river to the source.

    A daoist way/method (do) is to float and to drift with the river to the ocean.

    "Selfperfection" is a very active task whereas "best use of energies" sometimes is to do less and not to do more. Nature doesn't waste energy. "Best use of Energy" means to me at first and very basic not to waste energy and to avoid destructions for body and mind and there are a lot of possibilities in life to go wrong and waste energy. One waste could be the task and aim of "selfperfection". "There is a limit to our life, but to knowledge there is no limit. With what is limited to pursue after what is unlimited is a perilous thing".

    I also think it depends on personality:

    If you are a lazy guy with troubles in learning, consistancy and continuity, the daoist approach would fail. If you are the hardworking guy with high standards, you should loosen, lay back and try new ways from time to time. There is a famous story about Yagyu Matajuro, who was a son of the famous Yagyu family of swordsmen in 17th century feudal Japan. He was kicked out of the house for lack of talent and potential, and sought out instruction of the swordmaster Tsukahara Bokuden, with the hope of achieving mastery of the sword and regaining his family position. On their initial interview, Matajuro asked Tsukahara Bokuden, "How long will it take me to master the sword?" Bokuden replied, "Oh, about five years if you train very hard." "If I train twice as hard, how long will it take?" inquired Matajuro. "In that case, ten years," retorted Bokuden.

    Reinberger

    Posts : 132
    Join date : 2013-12-02

    Re: Kanos examples of Seiryoku Zenyo or Jita Kyoei for everyday life

    Post by Reinberger on Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:42 am

    Interesting conversation!

    Anatol, I now have a question. You wrote:
    Anatol wrote: ...
    I try it with an analogy:

    A confucian way/method (do) is to row or to swim up a river to the source.

    A daoist way/method (do) is to float and to drift with the river to the ocean.
    I think I understand what you try to explain with that analogy. But isn't it crucial in that connection, where you have to, or want to go?

    Wouldn't it be senseless to "float and to drift with the river to the ocean", if you have to, or want to go to the spring? Could that really still correlate with "Seiryoku zenyō"?

    And - be it that to go against that river current is possible at all - couldn't there be (a) way(s) to do that still according to the daoist way and "Seiryoku zenyō", while other methods may unnecessarily waste energy? Why shouldn't there be the possibility of daoist "Seiryoku zenyō" WITHIN a "confucian requirement" like "rowing or swimming a river upwards", if that's the (albeit challenging) task to be accomplished?


    _________________
    Kind regards, Robert

    Anatol

    Posts : 181
    Join date : 2014-01-20

    Re: Kanos examples of Seiryoku Zenyo or Jita Kyoei for everyday life

    Post by Anatol on Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:21 pm

    Hi Robert,

    Daoism in it's modern western version is a misconception of Daoism as to "go with the flow" and "doing nothing" (wu wei) leading to relativsm, hedonism, egocentrism and lazyness and thinking it's spirituality or "cool", tolerant, liberal. The modern Daoism in the East is a syncretism with Buddhism and Confucianism and obscure religious practice plus manipulating the body and mind to get some (sexual) superpowers or immortality.

    If we go back to Laozi and Zhuangzi there are four central teachings:

    - naturalness and simplicity

    - the calm and clear mind/spirit

    - virtue

    - unity with the Dao

    The Daodejing has 81 chapters, chapter 1 - 37 called the Dao jing and chapter 38 - 81 called the De jing. Virtue is an important capability because "the Dao does nothing but nothing is left undone". If "nothing is left undone" there has to be a lot of virtue, because Laozi and Zhuangzi seeing man and society on a wrong path. This virtue is not moral but more in a sense of the greek "arete" (qualities of a person).

    The Zhuangzi is more narrative with 33 chapters, giving stories about the "True Man", Relativism (life and death, knowledge), protecting and nourishing life, about simplicity and naturalness, virtues and skills, the clear and  calm mind, rambling in the boundless and the unity with the Dao.

    Wouldn't it be senseless to "float and to drift with the river to the ocean", if you have to, or want to go to the spring? Could that really still correlate with "Seiryoku zenyō"?
    The most important questions for goals and aims are, if the goals are valuable and meaningful goals , in which you should put your energy and work. If your answer is positive, you should start and put your effort into it. If you go to the spring, you get clarity, if you float to the ocean, you get unity.

    And - be it that to go against that river current is possible at all - couldn't there be (a) way(s) to do that still according to the daoist way and "Seiryoku zenyō", while other methods may unnecessarily waste energy?

    There is a famous story in the Zhuangzi, Confucius observing a man swimming and diving in  a waterfall/cascade (an extended version):

    Confucius and his students went on a hike out in the countryside. He was thinking of using the opportunity to engage the students in a discussion about the Tao when one of them approached and asked: "Master, have you ever been to Liu Liang? It is not far from here." Confucius said: "I have heard about it but never actually seen it with my own eyes. It is said to be a place of much natural beauty." "It is indeed," the student said. "Liu Liang is known for its majestic waterfalls. It is only about two hours' trek from here, and the day is still young. Master, if you would like to go there, I would be honored to serve as your guide."

    Confucius thought this was a splendid idea, so the group set off toward Liu Liang. As they were walking and chatting, another student said: "I grew up near a waterfall myself. In summertime, I would always go swimming with the other children from the village." The first student explained: "These waterfalls we will see aren't quite like that. The water comes down from such a great height that it carries tremendous force when it hits the bottom. You definitely would not want to go swimming there." Confucius said: "When the water is sufficiently powerful, not even fish and turtles can get near it. This is interesting to ponder, because we are used to thinking of water as their native element." After a while, they could see the waterfall coming into view in the hazy distance. Although it was still far away, they could see that it was indeed as majestic as the first student described. Another hour of walking brought them even closer, and now they could clearly hear the deep, vibrating sound it made. They topped a rise and were able to see the entire waterfall.

    Then they gasped collectively, because at the bottom of it, they saw a man in the ferociously churning water, being spun around and whipped this way and that by the terrifying currents. "Quickly, to the waterfall!" Confucius commanded. "He must have fallen in by accident, or perhaps he is a suicide. Either way, we must save him if we can." They ran as fast as they could. "It's useless, Master," one the students said. "By the time we get down there, he'll be too far gone for us to do him any good." "You may well be right," Confucius replied. "Nevertheless, when a man's life is at stake, we owe it to him to make every effort possible." They lost sight of the man as they descended the hillside. Moments later, they broke through the forest to arrive at the river, a short distance downstream from the waterfall. They expected to see the man's lifeless body in the river. Instead, they saw him swimming casually away from the waterfall, spreading his long hair out and singing loudly, evidently having a great time. They were dumbfounded.

    When he got out of the river, Confucius went to speak with him: "Sir, I thought you must be some sort of supernatural being, but on closer inspection I see you are an ordinary person, no different from us. We sought to save you, but now I see it is not necessary." The man bowed to Confucius: "I am sorry if I have caused you any grave concerns on my behalf. This is merely a trivial recreational activity I enjoy once in a while."

    Confucius bowed back: "You say it is trivial, but to me it is incredible. How can it be that you were not harmed by the waterfall? Are there some special skills that you possess?"

    "No, I have no special skills whatsoever," the man replied. "I simply follow the nature of the water. That's how I started with it, developed a habit out of it, and derived lifelong enjoyment from it." "This 'follow the nature of the water' - can you describe it in greater detail? How exactly does one follow the nature of water?" "Well... I don't really think about it very much. If I had to describe it, I would say that when the powerful torrents twist around me, I turn with them. If a strong current drives me down, I dive alongside it. As I do so, I am fully aware that when we get to the riverbed, the current will reverse course and provide a strong lift upward. When this occurs, I am already anticipating it, so I rise together with it." "So you are working with the water and not just letting it have its way with you?" "That's right. Although the water is extremely forceful, it is also a friend that I have gotten to know over the years, so I can sense what it wants to do, and I leverage its flow without trying to manipulate it or impose my will on it." "How long did it take for you to make all this an integrated part of your life?" "I really can't say. I was born in this area, so the waterfalls have always been a familiar sight to me. I grew up playing with these powerful currents, so I have always felt comfortable with them. Whatever success I have with water is simply a natural result of my lifelong habit. To be quite frank, I have no idea why this approach works so well. To me, it's just the way life is."


    Confucius thanked him and turned back to his students. He smiled, because he suddenly knew exactly what they could talk about on their trip home.

    In my opinion, this is a great story/example to demonstrate "the best use of energies" because naturalness, simplicity and skills working together.


    Why shouldn't there be the possibility of daoist "Seiryoku zenyō" WITHIN a "confucian requirement" like "rowing or swimming a river upwards", if that's the (albeit challenging) task to be accomplished?
    I think we agree, that if the goals and aims are valueable and meaningful, you should go for them.  

    But as good Judo is not pulling and pushing but to move in circles and throw in waves, the "best use of energies"  is a  reminder that there is not only one straight direction and one method to reach your goals. You have to lift your head to see the obstacles and the horizon and you have to have a feeling for the flow (power, nature, variety, circumstances, development, evolution) of the waters like the swimmer to use your energies and all energies in a best way.


    Last edited by Anatol on Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:26 pm; edited 2 times in total

    NBK

    Posts : 1060
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Kanos examples of Seiryoku Zenyo or Jita Kyoei for everyday life

    Post by NBK on Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:33 pm

    It's interesting that the conversation veers towards water.

    Kanô shihan arguably had an affinity for water. He was born on the seaside and grew up playing along the ocean, swimming, and fishing (I found where he was born last year and got old maps of the area - it is now kilometers from the Seto Inland Sea, so on the spot it's impossible to see what the old beach looked like).

    As an adult he edited a magazine on swimming published by his Zoshikai in parallel with his Kokushi (Patriot) magazine. He led a summer swimming camp for years, and even led (maybe was?) an effort to develop a new swimming stroke incorporating both traditional Japanese and Western techniques.

    Some of his calligraphy includes water and its flow. CK had a post on that someplace, and had apparently noticed and researched it a bit. I don't have that much on it, but wonder if there was some link to Daoist thought in his approach.


    Kaji

    Posts : 42
    Join date : 2014-03-10
    Location : Perth, Western Australia

    Re: Kanos examples of Seiryoku Zenyo or Jita Kyoei for everyday life

    Post by Kaji on Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:03 pm

    This is an interesting discussion. Allow me to add my two cents.

    In Confucianism, especially when applying the I-Ching, there are two closely related concepts of 1. timing 當時 and 2. positioning 當位.

    Let's take an example in the context of working in an organisation. During a peak season in the business cycle and you are at the entry or junior level with operational duties only, you are most likely not in a position nor at the best time to go to the board of directors and propose changes to their strategic objectives. It might be best for you to mind your own tasks for now and wait for an opportune time to voice your observations and suggestions to your immediate manager.

    However, if you are the CEO you actually have the responsibility to identify major areas needing improvement and drive those changes, preferably before the peak season. Same business, same problems, same hierarchy of management - your position and timing are the crucial determinants of your available courses of action, if you want to be effective and efficient.

    In Judo or any martial discipline, how is that any different?

    If after a failed throw attempt you are about to end up in a disadvantaged position in newaza, and you know your opponent will capitalise on that, often it is best to take a defensive stance. Perhaps only then from there should you look for a chance to counter, assuming the opponent proceeds to attack you in newaza.

    Sounds like Seiryoku Zenyo to me.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Kanos examples of Seiryoku Zenyo or Jita Kyoei for everyday life

    Post by Sponsored content Today at 1:10 pm


      Current date/time is Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:10 pm