Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:49 pm; edited 2 times in total
Sure! As Judo is at first for an education for kids, like in every education you should educate the whole person not only the skills of body like coordination, flexibility, speed, power and endurance but also character, the intellect and the spirit, social skills and behavior and that they are helping each over and so on. Adults should be grown up and know, how they treat each other especially when they are doing the same sport. If not, every association and even every club has its rules for social conduct and this isn't specially connected to Judo and the "Judo Etiquette" is not even special in its subjects or rules and also not in "Jita Kyoei". To help each other and to prospect together is the normal course for all unions - that is, why it is called "union" ;-)Do you not think, that, on the other hand, "Jita kyō-ei" as well can be, and should be, applied within the practise of Jūdō, by sensei as well, as by sempai, for example? Do you think, for emotional reasons as well as for health reasons, many beginners could be kept in a dōjō long enough, where it is completely neglected?
I will address your question about "Jū yoku go wo seisuru" at another point in time. By the way, many Western popular judo books have attributed this maxim to Kanō too, though it long predates Kanō, but that shouldn’t even be a surprise anymore …
Cichorei Kano wrote:It is not that simple. The Mahāyāna Mahāparinirvāṇa Sūtra does teach the existence of a Self or Ātman आत्मन्. In Buddhism the The Five Skandhas ar what make up an individual, i.e.: consciousness, for, mental formation, perception, and sensation. However, they don't result in a self, and are in essence empty. Ego is just created as some kind of ... "along the side", but is not real. In Theravada Buddhism this ego is considered just an illusion, but in Mahāyāna Buddhism it is more along the lines you describe with us more being part of some general experience. On the other hand self-knowledge is a critical thing in Zen-Buddhism. But irrespective of whatever concern you may have about this, may I point out that about all the goals of the Kōdōkan jūdō's final teachings (the Koshiki-no-kata and Itsutsu-no-kata) are Buddhist and Zen-Buddhist. Oops, so much for Kanō supposedly being anti-religious and only willing to embrace clean Confucianism, yes, that same Kanô whose heritage was one of ... Shintō priests !Anatol wrote:
Yes it es similar in striving and aim but it totally lacks the aspect of selfcultivation (there is no self in buddhism), selfperfection, selfdevelopment, development of moral and character and development of society as in Kano's "jita kyoei". It's more an universal connectivity and amity and compasion. At the end there will be happiness and peace for all but :-) this is also true für christianity, utilitarism and even communism.
How do you live "seiryoku zenyo" and "jita kyoei" in your everyday life?
Have these two principles influenced your work or your relationship to other beings or your way in general/specific? How?
I agree with Anatoly's view that Kano's writings and philosophies more clearly reflect Confucian thought; certainly there are isolated elements found in Buddhism, too, but there are certainly more numerous and integrated elements from Confucianism.Anatol wrote:Hi CKI will address your question about "Jū yoku go wo seisuru" at another point in time. By the way, many Western popular judo books have attributed this maxim to Kanō too, though it long predates Kanō, but that shouldn’t even be a surprise anymore …
Thats pretty clear, because it is a quote from Laozi 36
If you would have a thing shrink,
You must first stretch it;
If you would have a thing weakened,
You must first strengthen it;
If you would have a thing laid aside,
You must first set it up;
If you would take from a thing,
You must first give to it.
This is called subtle discernment:
The submissive (rou) and weak (ruo) will overcome the hard (gang) and strong (qiang).
The Laozi was written (compiled) about 320 - 250 before 0 in Ancient China (Age of Warring States)
There are a lot more similar lines in the Daodejing (Laozi), which emphasis the flexible, soft, weak, yielding etc.
noboru wrote:The book: Judo Memoirs of Jigoro Kano by Brian N. Watson - page 107 article Benefiting Oneself And Others
75. Benefiting Oneself And Others
This is an English rendition of one of my principles to be observed in life: jita kyoei. The difficulties of maintaining social harmony among people do not arise for the hermit. Social interaction for most people, however, exposes them to the possibility that their actions and the views that they express will at times clash with those of others. This can lead to disagreements and to mistrust which often results in disadvantages to both parties. Therefore, in order for one to live peaceably with one's fellows, a relationship fostering mutual help and co-operation in preferable. This means that we should be willing to give consideration to the opinions of others and to show an inclination to compromise. That is to say, we should adopt the practice of bringing benefits not only to ourselves but also to others.
We must not be merely passive citizens, but make efforts to promote this mode of social intercourse and contribute to the advancement of society. One should never oppose this principle. For obvious reasons, a man who chooses to cut himself off from normal interaction with others and live in seclusion usually cannot live a meaningful existence. Therefore, it is in our own best interests that each of us should strive in some way for betterment of society. In other words, our own moral conduct needs to be exemplary if we are to set an example and so influence others.
Few would oppose moral codes based on such a precept nor would this fact be ignored by adherents of Confucianism, Buddhism or for that matter Christianity. Clerics often expound exemplary moral coduct, which is accepted and respected by faithful. However, teh principles and methods favored by varying religious groups differ somewhat. In the case of education, for example, respect for the Imperial Rescript, which is based on the teachings of only one religious sect, can be misplaced. If one religion is deemed to be favored in the rescript, adherents of other faiths may well choose to ignore it. Nevertheless, the 1890 Imperial Rescript on Education was universally compatible when introduced and has been increasingly accepted by many Japanese people. Largely due to reverence for the emperor, both at home and among Japanese communities abroad, the rescript has become widely favored. In late 1922, I too eventually, supported national recognition of this moral code.
Kano shihan for years had hesitations regarding the Imperial Rescript on Education. This was apparently not because he was explicitly anti-Shinto, or pro- another religion, but rather because of concerns about the lack of universality of a Shinto-based policy. I think he would have preferred a more secular education policy but finally gave in.
CK wrote:I am not suggesting at all that Kanō wanted to create a facade with this maxim, not at all. I am not “accusing” Kanō. I am merely pointing out that the maxim fails to withstand the test of realism because it lacks realism and that such is a crucial weakness that one needs to be aware of when engaging to realize this maxim. The fact that Kanō failed at realizing his own maxim was not because he was fake, but because the maxim itself lacked realism, at least for a human.
egarding the origin of the term 'softness overcomes hardness' Jū yoku go wo seisuru (which I hold is incorrect, as it should translated more complexly, such as flexibility/softness overcomes stiffness/hardness),
Thats wrong.in jujutsu lore the source is usually cited as one of the Three Strategies of Huang Shigong, 黄石公三略(Huáng Shígōng Sānlüè) 黄石公三略 'also known as 太公兵法 Tàigōng Bīngfǎ', one of the Seven Military Classics, which dates from around 200BC to 0 CE. (It also happens to be the subject of the avatar I use on this forum.) The point is that the best strategy to win employs multiple forms, not single strategies. And the book is primarily seen as influenced by Confucian and Daoist philosophies.
in jujutsu lore the source is usually cited as one of the Three Strategies of Huang Shigong, 黄石公三略(Huáng Shígōng Sānlüè) 黄石公三略 'also known as 太公兵法 Tàigōng Bīngfǎ', one of the Seven Military Classics, which dates from around 200BC to 0 CE. (It also happens to be the subject of the avatar I use on this forum.) The point is that the best strategy to win employs multiple forms, not single strategies. And the book is primarily seen as influenced by Confucian and Daoist philosophies.
Hi, Anatol.Anatol wrote:
The Huang Shigong San Lue is an ecclective work and binds Confucian, Legalist and Daoist thoughts together. Most probably it was written at the end of the Western Han Dynasty around 0. Dominant Thougts in the Western Han were Confucianism (since emperor Han Wudi 135 B.) and also Daoism in a form of HuangLao Daoism - a blend of Laozi Daoism and TCM and Yi Jing and YinYang/Wuxing Correspondence System and Waidan (outer alchemy) to get a very long life or even immortality (xian).
The Laozi (Dao De Jing) itself was written and compiled around 320 B - 250 B. and was widespread in the early Western Han Dynastie (see Mawangdui 1973). The first commentaries to the Laozi are written from Hanfeizi (a legalist) around 240 B.
It is very clear that the Three Strategies of Huang Shigong (written 0 BC) influenced by Confucianism, Legalism, Sunzi and HuangLaoDaoism and also the "Huainanzi" (a daoist work around 140 B) give a quote from Laozi 36: "The flexible and weak overcomes the hard and strong" (written 320 B - 250 B). The Laozi is the older one, a widespread original daoist classic with deep influence to chinese culture and not only a short paper with some blended ecclectic thoughts ...
The citation should readnoboru wrote:Thank you for your nice discussion. I found next text to this theme. I get only czech translation to this time.
The Contribution of Judo to Education by Jigoro Kano
This speech by Jigoro Kano was given at the University of Southern California (USC) in Loc Angeles on the occasion of 11th Olympiad, 1932.
The Contribution of Judo to Education by Jigoro Kano
The object of this lecture is to explain to you in a general way what Judo is. In our feudal times, there were many military exercises such as fencing, archery, the use of spears, etc. Among them there was one called Jujutsu which was a composite exercise, consisting principally of the ways of fighting without weapons; using, however, occasionally daggers, swords and other weapons.
The kinds of attack were chiefly throwing, hitting, choking, holding the opponent down and bending or twisting the opponent's arms or legs in such a way as to cause pain or fracture. The use of swords and daggers was also taught. We had also multitudinous ways of defending ourselves against such attacks. Such exercise, in its primitive form, existed even in our mythological age. But systematic instruction, as an art, dates only from about three hundred fifty years ago.
In my younger days I studied this art with three eminent masters of the time. The great benefit I derived from the study of it led me to make up my mind to go on with the subject more seriously, and in 1882 I started a school of my own and called it Kodokan. Kodokan literally means a school for studying the way, the meaning of the way being the concept of life itself. I named the subject I teach Judo instead of Jujutsu. In the first place I will explain to you the meaning of these words. Ju means gentle or to give way, Jutsu, an art or practice, and Do, way or principle, so that Jujutsu means an art or practice of gentleness or of giving way in order to ultimately gain the victory; while Judo means the way or principle of the same.
Besides the acquisition of useful knowledge, we must endeavor to improve our intellectual powers, such as memory, attention, observation, judgment, reasoning, imagination, etc. But this we should not do in a haphazard manner, but in accordance with psychological laws, so that the relation of those powers one with the other shall be well harmonized. It is only by faithfully following the principle of maximum efficiency - that is Judo - that we can achieve the object of rationally increasing our knowledge and intellectual power.
Can this principle be applied to other fields of human activity? Yes, the same principle can be applied to the improvement of the human body, making it strong, healthy and useful, and so constitutes physical education. It can also be applied to the improvement of intellectual and moral power, and in this way constitutes mental and moral education. It can at the same time be applied to the improvement of diet, clothing, housing, social intercourse, and methods of business, thus constituting the study and training in living. I gave this all-pervading principle the name of "Judo". So Judo, in its fuller sense, is a study and method in training of mind and body as in the regulation of life and affairs.
Judo, therefore, in one of its phases, can be studied and practiced with attack and defense for its main object. Before I started Kodokan, this attack and defense phase of Judo only was studied and practiced in Japan under the name of Jiu-jitsu, sometimes called "Tai-Jitsu", meaning the art of managing the body or "Yawara", the "gentle management." But I came to think that the study of this all-pervading principle is more important that the mere practice of Jiu-jitsu, because the real understanding of the principle not only enables one to apply it to all phases of life, but is also of great service in the study of the art of Jiu-jitsu itself.
It is not only through the process I took that one can come to grasp this principle. One can arrive at the same conclusion by philosophical interpretation of the daily transaction of business, or through abstract philosophical reasoning. But when I started to teach Judo I thought it advisable to follow the same course as I took in the study of the subject, because by so doing I could make the body of my pupil healthy, strong and useful. At the same time, I could assist him gradually to grasp this all-important principle. For this reason I began the instruction of Judo with training in randori and kata.
Randori, meaning "free exercise", is practiced under conditions of actual contest. It includes throwing, choking, holding the opponent down, and bending or twisting his arms or legs. The two combatants may use whatever methods they like provided they do not hurt each other and obey the rules of Judo concerning etiquette, which are essential to its proper working.
Kata, which literally means "form", is a formal system of prearranged exercises, including hitting, cutting, kicking, thrusting, etc., according to rules under which each combatant knows beforehand exactly what his opponent is going to do. The remaining hitting, kicking, cutting and thrusting techniques are taught in Kata and not in Randori, because if they were used in Randori cases of injury might frequently occur, while when taught in Kata no such injury is likely to happen because all the attacks and defenses are prearranged. Randori may be practiced in various ways. If the object be simply training in the method of attack and defense, the attention should be especially directed to the training in the most efficient ways of throwing, bending or twisting, without special reference to developing the body or to mental and moral culture. Randori can also be studied with physical education as its main objective. From what I have already said, anything to be ideal must be performed on "the principle of maximum efficiency."
We will see how the existing system of physical education can stand this test. Taking athletics as a whole, I cannot help thinking that they are not the ideal form of physical education, because every movement is not chosen for all around development of the body but for attaining some other definite object. And furthermore, as we generally require special equipment and sometimes quite a number of persons to participate in them, athletics are fitted as a training for select groups of persons and not as the means of improving the physical condition of a whole nation.
This holds true with boxing, wrestling, and different kinds of military exercises practiced all over the world. Then people may ask, "Are not gymnastics [calisthenics] an ideal form of national physical training?" To this I answer that they are an ideal form of physical education from their being contrived for all-round development of the body, and not necessarily requiring special equipment and participants. But gymnastics are lacking in very important things essential to the physical education of a whole nation. The defects are:
• Different gymnastics movements have no meaning and naturally are devoid of interest.
• No secondary benefit is derived from their training.
• Attainment of "skill" (using the word "skill" in a special sense) cannot be sought for or acquired in gymnastics as in some other exercises.
• From this brief survey of the whole field of physical education, I can say that no ideal form has yet been invented to fill the necessary conditions for such physical education.
This ideal form can only be devised from a study based on maximum efficiency. In order to fulfill all those conditions or requirements, a system of all-round development of the body, as a primary consideration must be devised as in the case of gymnastics. Next, the movements should have some meaning so that they may be engaged in with interest. Again, the activities should be such as require no large space, special dress or equipment. Furthermore, they must be such as could be done individually as well as in groups. Those are the conditions or requirements for a satisfactory system of physical education for a whole nation. Any system that can meet successfully those requirements may, for the first time, be regarded as a program of physical education based on the principle of maximum efficiency.
I have been studying this subject for a long time and have succeeded in devising two forms, which may be said to fulfill all those requirements. One form is what I named "representative form". This is a way of representing ideas, emotions, and different motions of natural objects by the movements of limbs, body and neck. Dancing is one instance of such, but originally dancing was not devised with physical education for its object, and can therefore not be said to fulfill those requirements. But it is possible to devise special kinds of dancing made to suit persons of different sex and mental and physical conditions and made to express moral ideas and feelings, so that conjointly with the cultivation of the spiritual side of a nation it can also develop the body in a way suited to all.
This "representative form" is, I believe, in one way or other practiced in America and Europe, and you can, I think, imagine what I mean, therefore I shall not deal with it any further here.
There is one other form, which I named "attack and defense form." In this, I have combined different methods of attack and defense, in such a way that the result will conduce to the harmonious development of the whole body. Ordinary methods of attack and defense taught in Jiu-jitsu cannot be said to .be ideal for the development of the body, therefore, I have especially combined them so that they fulfill the conditions necessary for the harmonious development of the body. This can be said to meet two purposes: (1) bodily development, and (2) training in the art of contest. As every nation is required to provide for national defense, so every individual must know how to defend himself. In this age of enlightenment, nobody would care to prepare either for national aggressions or for doing individual violence to others. But defense in the cause of justice and humanity must never be neglected by a nation or by an individual.
This method of physical education in attack and defense form, I shall show you by actual practice. This is divided into two kinds of exercises: one is individual exercise and the other is exercise with an opponent (as demonstrated).From what I have explained and shown by practice, you have no doubt understood what I mean by physical education based on the principle of maximum efficiency. Although I strongly advocate that the physical education of a whole nation should be conducted on that principle, at the same time I do not mean to lay little emphasis on athletics and various kinds of martial exercise. Although they cannot be deemed appropriate as a physical education of a whole nation, yet as a culture or a group or groups of persons, they have their special value and I by no means wish to discourage them, especially Randori in Judo.
One great value of Randori lies in the abundance of movements it affords for physical development. Another value is that every movement has some purpose and is executed with spirit, while in ordinary gymnastics exercises movements lack interest. The object of a systematic physical training in Judo is not only to develop the body but to enable a man or a woman to have a perfect control over mind and body and make him or her ready to meet any emergency whether that be a pure accident or an attack by others.
Although exercise in Judo is generally conducted between two persons, both in Kata and in Randori, and in a room specially prepared for the purpose, yet that is not always necessary. It can be practiced by a group or by a single person, on the playground, or in an ordinary room. People imagine that falling in Randori is attended with pain and sometimes with danger. But a brief explanation of the way one is taught to fall will enable them to understand that there is no such pain or danger.
To take still another instance, in Randori, we teach the learner, when he faces an opponent who is madly excited, to score a victory over him, not by directly resisting him with might and main, but by playing him till the very fury and power of the latter expends itself.
The usefulness of this attitude in everyday transactions with others is patent. As is well known, no amount of reasoning could avail us when a person who is so agitated as to seem to have lost his temper confronts us. All that we have to do in such a case is to wait until his passion wears itself out. All these teachings we learn from the practice of Randori. Their application to the conduct of daily affairs is a very interesting subject of study and is valuable as an intellectual training for young minds.
I will finish my talk about the intellectual phase of Judo by referring shortly to the rational means of increasing knowledge and intellectual power. If we closely observe society, we notice everywhere the way in which we foolishly expend our energy in the acquisition of knowledge. All our surroundings are always giving us opportunities? Are we always making the best choice of books, magazines and newspapers we read? Do we not often find out that the energy which might have been spent for acquiring useful knowledge is often used for amassing knowledge which is prejudicial not only to self but also to society?
I shall now proceed to speak of the intellectual phase of Judo. Mental training in Judo can be done by Kata as well as by competition between two persons, using all the resources at their command and obeying the prescribed rules of Judo, both parties must always be wide awake, and be endeavoring to find out weak points of the opponent, being ready to attack whenever opportunity allows. Such an attitude of mind in devising means of attack tends to make the pupil earnest, sincere, thoughtful, cautious and deliberate in all his dealings. At the same time one is trained for quick decision and prompt action, because in Randori unless one decides quickly and acts promptly he will always lose his opportunity either in attacking or in defending.
Again, in Randori each contestant cannot tell what his opponent is going to do, so each must be prepared to meet any sudden attack by the other. Habituated to this kind of mental attitude, he develops a high degree of mental composure, or "poise." Exercise of the power of attention and observation in the gymnasium or place of training, naturally develops such power, which is so useful in daily life.
For devising means of defeating an opponent, the exercise of the power of imagination, of reasoning and of judgment, is indispensable, and such power is naturally developed in Randori. Again as the study of Randori is the study of the relation, mental and physical, existing between two competing parties, hundreds of valuable lessons may be derived from this study, but I will content myself for the present by giving a few more examples. In Randori we teach the pupil always to act on the fundamental principle of Judo, no matter how physically inferior his opponent may seem to him and even if he can by sheer strength easily overcome the other. If he acts against this principle the opponent will never be convinced of his defeat, whatever brutal strength may have been used on him. It is hardly necessary to call your attention to the fact that the way to convince your opponent in an argument is not to push this or that advantage over him, be it from power, from knowledge or from wealth, but to persuade him in accordance with the inviolable rules of logic. This lesson that persuasion, not coercion, is efficacious, which is so valuable in actual life, we may learn from Randori.
Again we teach the learner, when he has recourse to any trick in overcoming his opponent, to employ only as much of his force as is absolutely required for the purpose in question, cautioning him against either an over or under exertion of force. There are not a few cases in which people fail in what they undertake simply because they go too far, not knowing where to stop, and vice versa.
To take still another instance, in Randori, we teach the learner, when he faces an opponent who is madly excited, to score a victory over him, not by directly resisting him with might and main, but by playing him till the very fury and power of the latter expends itself.
The usefulness of this attitude in everyday transactions with others is patent. As is well known, no amount of reasoning could avail us when a person who is agitated as to seem to have lost his temper confronts us. All that we have to do in such a case is to wait until his passions wears itself out. All these teachings we learn from the practice of Randori. Their application to the conduct of daily affairs is a very interesting subject of study and is valuable as an intellectual training for young minds.
Besides the acquisition of useful knowledge, we must endeavor to improve intellectual powers, such as memory, attention, observation, judgment, reasoning, imagination, etc. But this we should not do in a haphazard manner, but in accordance with psychological laws, so that the relation of those powers one with the other shall be well harmonized. It is only by faithfully following the principle of maximum efficiency, that is Judo, that we can achieve the object of rationally increasing our knowledge and intellectual power.
I shall now speak about the moral phase of Judo. It is not my intention to speak of the moral discipline given to students in the exercise room, such as the observance of the regular rules of etiquette, courage, perseverance, kindness, respect for others, impartiality, and fair play so much emphasized in athletic sports throughout the world. The training in Judo has a special moral import in Japan because Judo, together with other martial exercises, was practiced by our Samurai, who had a high code of honor, the spirit of which has been bequeathed to us through the teaching of the art. In this connection I wish to explain to you how the principle of maximum efficiency helps us in promoting moral conduct. A man is sometimes very excitable and prone to anger for trivial reasons.
But when one comes to consider that "to be excited" is an unnecessary expenditure of energy, giving benefit to nobody but often doing harm to himself and others, it will be seen that the student of Judo must refrain from such conduct.
A man is sometimes despondent from disappointment, is gloomy, and has no courage to work. To such a man Judo comes with the advice to find out what is the best thing he can do under the existing circumstances. Paradoxical as it may seem, such a man is, to my mind, in the same position as one whom is at the zenith of success. In either case, there is only one course to follow, that is, what, after due consideration, he deems to be the best course of action at the time. Thus the teaching of Judo may be said to lean a man from the depths of disappointment and lethargy to a state of vigorous activity with a bright hope for the future.
The same reasoning applies to those persons who are discontented. Discontented persons are often in a sulky state of mind and blame other people for what is their own fault and without attending to their own business. The teaching of Judo will make persons understand that such conduct is against the principle of maximum efficiency, and make them realize that by the faithful observance of that principle they will become more cheerful. Thus the teaching of Judo is, in a variety of ways, serviceable to the promotion of moral conduct.
Finally, I wish to add a few words to the emotional phase of Judo. We are all aware of the pleasurable sensation given to the nerves and muscles through exercise, and we also feel pleasure at the attainment of skill, in the use of our muscles, and also through the sense of superiority over others in contest. But besides these pleasures there is that love of beauty and delight in it derivable from assuming graceful attitudes and performing graceful movements and also in seeing such in others. The training in these, together with the pleasure obtainable from watching movements symbolical of different ideas, constitutes what we call the emotional or the aesthetic phase of Judo. I believe you have already come to see what kind of thing Judo really is, in contra-distinction to the Jiu-jitsu of feudal times.
If I now state in a concise form what I have said, it might be summed up as follows:
Judo is a study and training in mind and body as well as in the regulation of one's life and affairs. From the thorough study of the different methods of attack and defense I became convinced that they all depend on the application of one all-pervading principle, namely: "Whatever be the object, it can best be attained by the highest or maximum efficient use of mind and body for that purpose". Just as this principle applied to the methods of attack and defense constitutes Jiu-jitsu, so does this same principle, applied to physical, mental and moral culture, as well as to ways of living and carrying on of business, constitute the study of, and the training in, those things.
Once the real importance of this principle is understood, it may be applied to all phases of life and activity and enable one to lead the highest and the most rational life. The real understanding of this principle need not necessarily be arrived at through the training in the methods of attack and defense, but as I came to conceive of this idea through training in these methods, I made such training in contest and the training for the development of the body the regular means of arriving at the principle.
This principle of maximum efficiency, when applied to the keying up or perfecting of social life, just as when applied to the coordination of mind and body, in the science of attack and defense, demands, first of all, order and harmony among its members, and this can only be attained through mutual aid and concessions, leading to mutual welfare and benefit.
The final aim of Judo, therefore, is to inculcate in the mind of man a spirit of respect for the principle of maximum efficiency and of mutual welfare and benefit, leading him so to practice them that man individually and collectively can attain to the highest state, and, at the same time, develop the body and learn the art of attack and defense.
If we closely observe the actual state of society all over the world, notwithstanding the fact that morality in all its forms (religious, philosophical and traditional) is meant to improve man's conduct in society and make the world ideal, the fact seems quite the contrary. We notice vices, quarrels, and discontent in every level of society, from the highest to the lowest. While we are taught hygiene and correct ways of living in school from childhood up to mature age, we still are prone to neglect the rules of good clean living and of hygienic and orderly lives.
The actual facts prove that our society is lacking in something which, if brought to light and universally acknowledged, can remodel the society and bring greater happiness and satisfaction to this world. This is the teaching of maximum efficiency and mutual welfare and benefit.
I do not mean to say that our time honored moral precepts and hygienics should be shelved. On the contrary, let those precepts and advice be respected ever as they used to be, but in addition to these; our principle of maximum efficiency and mutual welfare and benefit should ever be paramount. This I emphatically say, because in this age of criticism and new ideas, for any teaching to have effect, it must have behind it, some indubitable reason of fact. We do not hear the thinking man today say, "Because I believe in such and such a thing, therefore you must believe in it, or, I came to such and such a conclusion through my own reasoning; therefore you also must come to the same conclusion." Whatever one affirms must be based on facts or reasoning which no sane person can deny or doubt. Certainly none can deny the value of the principle "Whatever be the objective, it can best be attain by the highest or maximum effective use of mind and body for that purpose." Again, none can deny that it is only by aiming at mutual welfare and benefit that every member of society can keep from discord and quarreling, and live in peace and prosperity. Is it not because of the universal recognition of these facts that people have come to talk so much about efficiency and scientific management and that everywhere these are being advocated? In addition to this, the principle of give-and-take is more and more coming to be the determining factor in the lives of all human beings. Is it not because this principle of mutual welfare and benefit has been recognized that from the League of Nations and the Great Powers of the World we came to meet for the decrease of naval and military armaments? These movements are also automatic acknowledgment of the crying need of efficient and mutual welfare and benefit. The educational forces of every country in which Judo should have a prominent part must further them.
Thats possible because the "San Lue" is one of the Seven Military Classics (wujingqishu) which were canonized 11th century A.C. in the Song Dynasty. Japan was (is) heavily influenced by chinese culture especially Confucianism. Confucianism spread to Japan and in Confucianism you had to study the Confucian Classics - and not the Daoist like Laozi and Zhuangzi. Both the "Wen" (bureaucrats) and the "Wu" (warriors) had to study all confucian books, the "Wu" especially the Seven Miltary Classics. But they were concentrated on Confucianism or Neoconfucianism, which tries to blend Daoism and Buddhism with Confucianism (the three teachings are one - san jiao yi) - others say Neoconfucianism tried to occupy or absorb D and B. From there comes the confusion, because people, who didnt read the daoist classics thought, that "the flexible und weak overcomes the hard and strong" is part of confucian texts and the Ju Jutsu text refered the principle of "ju" = rou to a military treatise in confucian context. But it's very clear that the "San Lue" quotes from Laozi and is a text which is influenced by HuangLao Daoism.I'm not sure exactly what is 'wrong'.
From what I read the Laozi does _predate_ the SanLue, but nevertheless in old jujutsu texts their source for 柔 yawara, or jū, if even cited, is the Sānlüè, not the Laozi.
There are even more quotes from the Laozi to explain the idea of "ju" and "wu you" (without substance/form) and also in a broader context and explanation.I don't know how the SanLue strategy of flexibility 「柔能制剛、弱能制強」 entered Japanese lore while the same, or similar term in the more widely studied Laozi was overlooked, but that seems to be the case.
The citation should read
Kano, J. (1932) 'The contribution of Judo to education', The Journal of Health on Education, 1932.
Anatol wrote:Said this, "seiryoku zenyo" is not an universal principle, because its only the best use of energy.
You can do the bad and the evil "with maximum efficiency " (but question, if it is the best use of "sei" )
Where is the "LIKE" button in this forum, again ?wdax wrote:This needs a little correction, but you already are on the way.
"Zen" 善 means "good" or "for good purpose". Seiryoku-zenyo clearly is a moral principle: To use one´s physical and mental power with maximum efficiency to do good things". Please remember that it is shortened form seiryoku-kaizen-katsuyo. But there is no definition of what is good or not, so jita-kyo´ei was added. "Good is, what leads to mutual welfare - physical, moral and mental".
And what are the components of "welfare" in a physical, moral and mental way?"Good is, what leads to mutual welfare - physical, moral and mental".
Sure that are mostly confucian thoughts (exception is the part of physical education)We expect the judoka to make his body healthy and strong, be
morally upright and to play an influential role in society. We expect individuals and
groups to help and compromise with each other thereby creating a pervasive harmony.
In the world at large we expect all to strive for mutual prosperity (Jita Kyoei), to
abandon racial discrimination and to share equally in the fruits of cultural
The essential points of these are: (1) Highest practical application of
mind and body is the secret of self-perfection. (2) Self-perfection is completed by
aiding other perfections. (3) Self-perfection is the basis of mankind’s mutual
Yes ist does... ;-)Anatol wrote:I do not read japanese but in chinese the hanzi "shan4" (zen) means both: "good" and also "virtuous".
If this is the same in japanese, "Seiryoku zenyo" has clearly a moral component too. Thx for pointing that out!
Thanks - I don´t know, if you have the complete collection, but here it is:Anatol wrote:By the way: I do very appreciate your paper "Grundwissen der Geschichte des Kōdōkan-Jūdō in Japan"!
If you see "seiryoku zenyo" as a foundamental priciple of nature, it only describes, "what is" foundamental in nature (descriptive). What is foundamental in nature isn't automatically good for ethics. In nature there is the survival of the fittest, but that would be no foundamental principle for ethics, because ethics ask, what is good and righteous for individuals and for society (normativ). To go from "what is" (descriptive) to "what should be" (ethically) is a false conclusion - often done and known as naturalistic fallacy.Reinberger wrote: What only I, admittedly, don't seem to get, is your distinction between "fundamental" and "universal" in that context, as, in your posting, one time you write Sei-ryoku Zen’yō "IS a fundamental principle which comes from nature", but another time you note "it is NOT an universal principle, because its only the best use of energy which comes from nature".
The foundamental principle is, that nature doesn't waste energy and is highly efficient (best use of energy). As a precept or rule for application to a human being (best use of spirit and force/energy) its an ideal, I do agree and has to do with naturalness, simplicity and simplicity and a calm and clear mind.However, if I still included it within the expression of "ideal(s)" earlier, I did it because I doubt that anybody is able to apply it really everywhere and every time. In that sense, I regard Sei-ryoku Zen’yō as an ideal too.
For sure it wouldn't rule out Human Rights. But if you see "jita kyoei" as a foundamental, universal ethical principle, on which you can build society (like Kano does, as I understand the Kano quotes above from noboru), there would be no Human Rights, because Human rights first and foundamental on rights of individuals only because the are human beeings. They have no duties for selfperfection, be part of perfection of society and so on.When I also wrote about "Jita kyō-ei" as an ideal, I didn't want to imply an exclusivity of that maxim. While Jita kyō-ei may not be "a fundamental moral and social principle", as it isn't "based on individual freedom and to respect the freedom of the others", because of its pedigree (maybe the time, when it was formulated, may also play a role here), I don't see how it should rule out the application of "Fundamental Human Rights". Maybe, that you could make that clearer for me?
If these ideals stay private and not become law, then there is no problem at all and they may be helpful in daily life.As of yet, I regard "Jita kyō-ei" as an ideal that is pretty good combinable with "fundamental moral and social principles" accepted within a modern, human society, principles like the "Fundamental Human Rights", or values like, for example, democracy.
Sorry that I didn't read this.you also wrote: "On the individual side the aim of steady learning, devoloping, progressing, perfection of Mind an Body, Character and social skills can lead to a very unhappy life and nether be in presence. There is always something to do, learn, develop, refine, polish, achieve - but life is no race. If you do it for your self, its your own failure but if you demand it from others you are the problem."
I thought, I'd made it clear, how I think that can and has to be avoided. Haven't I even explicit warned against what I termed "fanaticism or extremism" in that regard?
Apart from that, I regard this "steady learning, developing, etc." you talk about, as an attribute downright typical and even assumed for a budōka, while it seems to be requested nowhere, that "perfection" actually has to be attained, in any aspect.
Thats clear that seiryoku zenyo and jita kyoei fits together but most of the clubs in my country have a vivid club culture, they help, respect and support each over, have social activity and so on, but not because they are a Judo club. They do it simple as every club or association does like soccer, chessclubs, climbers or philatelists.Anyway, even you called Jita kyō-ei "a moral and pedagogical Judo ideal", and that exactly is the reason, why I think that jūdō, an expression which I, in principle, regard as an abbreviation for Kanō Jigōrō's "Nihon-den Kōdōkan Jūdō" as defined by him, actually can't be thought and can't be taught properly, excluding Jita kyō-ei as one of its "goals". If it's tried, the result enforcedly, quasi automatically, is a thing or entity different to (this definition of) jūdō, even if the techniques used may be identical. In fact that's what I - perhaps capable of being misunderstood, and therefore unsuccessfully - try to say since my first post in this thread. So much about my command of both, the English language, which, at least, is foreign to me, but of Sei-ryoku Zen’yō as well.