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    Mifune Kyūzō, 8th dan

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    Cichorei Kano

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    Mifune Kyūzō, 8th dan

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:12 am





    Images from between 1931-1936.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Mifune Kyūzō, 8th dan

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:02 am

    I've never seen footage of him when he not an "old man", thanks so much for sharing this !


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    finarashi

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    Re: Mifune Kyūzō, 8th dan

    Post by finarashi on Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:26 am

    Really nice, thank you. It is amazing to try to gauge which direction he is going to throw next. Even with slow motion, you are late.


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    Jihef

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    Re: Mifune Kyūzō, 8th dan

    Post by Jihef on Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:44 pm

    finarashi wrote:Really nice, thank you. It is amazing to try to gauge which direction he is going to throw next. Even with slow motion, you are late.
    His way of doing kata-guruma really amazes me. Shocked
    I would love to have Hanon-sensei comment on that one.
    Very Happy


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    NBK

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    Re: Mifune Kyūzō, 8th dan

    Post by NBK on Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:28 pm

    Jihef wrote:
    finarashi wrote:Really nice, thank you. It is amazing to try to gauge which direction he is going to throw next. Even with slow motion, you are late.
    His way of doing kata-guruma really amazes me. Shocked
    I would love to have Hanon-sensei comment on that one.
    Very Happy
    It was very interesting to compare his style to the video of Rhonda Rousey.

    At 2:52 he uses a choke that to me is very reminiscent of Tenjin Shin'yo ryu jujutsu - sometimes I see it in very old text. In a shiai I tried something similar once, had my hand jammed in wrong, and spun, almost broke my finger. Tremendous torque, unfortunately self-inflicted. Embarassed

    Note the old style zarei - I almost inadvertently read up on this, it didn't change until later.

    NBK

    noboru

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    kano about Mifune from interview with Moshe Feldenkreis

    Post by noboru on Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:14 pm

    From interview with Moshe Feldenkreis (INTERVIEW WITH MOSHE – The Extraordinary Story of How Moshe Feldenkrais Came to Study Judo - http://www.semiophysics.com/SemioPhysics_interview_with_Moshe.html )

    And then he told me stories of his students like the orangutan, Nagaoka. At that time, Nagaoka meant to me exactly like if you told me Gerald Ford. (Laughter) So, keeping things rolling, I said, “Who's Nagaoka?” He said, he is the chief instructor of the Kodokan. Then, around 1930, there were two Judo greats, Nagaoka and Mifuni. Nagaoka was the most powerful man in the Kodokan and Mifuni, the fastest, the best in quality. Kind of a small chap, but he could beat anybody. Actually I heard very many very long stories; Kano told me extraordinary things. He told me about Mifuni afterwards, later – we met about 12 times afterwards. So, he told me that Mifuni was a born fighter and that two or three times every year, he had to go to the police and take him out of prison. Wherever there was a brawl, wherever there was fighting, Mifuni was there and usually an ambulance had to take away a dozen people and the police would arrest him. (Laughter) You see? Then Kano as the Undersecretary of State for Education in Japan had to use his influence. He told me that he had to get Mifuni out of prison perhaps 30 times in his life.
    But here they appeared as two nice gentlemen, but they were dressed in a funny sort of way, with black belts and Judo gis (white practice outfits ... ed.), which I saw for the first time in my life. Both of them had on Japanese sandals. They served dinner for both of us.

    And I will send you four rolls of film where you will see Judo done by me, by Nagaoka, by Yokoyama and Mifuni, and that's the best Judo that has ever been filmed.

    If you were to start a Judo school today, would you begin with your work, Awareness Through Movement?
    Well, I can tell you that I have been teaching Judo exactly in the same way. The pupils that have learned with me are some of the best Judo men in the world today with 40 years experience, means old people. Just like in Japan, the older they get, the better they get. It shows you that they have learned the real thing. Because Mifuni fought 20 Japanese champions at the age of 74 publicly.

    Kano showed that there are at least ten distinct grades of quality. Because a Mifuni would never be beaten by a fifth Dan, it's inconceivable. A Mifuni would take a fifth Dan and just throw him about but not compete with him. The chap would say, how did you do it, and he would throw him again and again for about ten minutes and the chap would never know what was happening to him. Koizumi would throw 50 people like that one after another, and they'd get up and ask how he did it. He'd say, look, I did it like this, and throw them again.

    So you're saying that the mystical conception people carry around with them about ki is unnecessary. And that you don't need it.
    I think that organization is necessary, otherwise you can't do it. But it is not a thing which – look, if ki were a spiritual quantity the way the psychic people may think, then suppose I have plenty of ki and I want to bestow you the ki. I somehow transfer to you some of the power, then you can do anything. You see? That's the idea. I think that idea is complete nonsense, but people like Kano have taught Mifunis and Nagaokas and Yokoyamas and all sorts of extraordinary people who were looked upon as god-like. That I can understand, and that I can teach you – not as well as Kano himself could, but not by half as much worse, because he is dead and l am alive. (laughter)

    jeanjean

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    Re: Mifune Kyūzō, 8th dan

    Post by jeanjean on Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:50 am

    Kyuzo Mifune- Itsutsu-no-Kata

    noboru

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    Kyuzo Mifune in Kodokan - from Kitayama Junyu's article

    Post by noboru on Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:35 pm

    Here is photo of Kyuzo Mifune in Kodokan.
    On the next page are informations about this picture:

    Kodokan, die hohe Schule des Judo. Judo-Kämpfer während eines Reinigungsrituals vor dem Kampf. Die Gürtel kennzeichen den Rang der Kämpfer. Ein schwarzer Gürtel wird bis zum 5. Rang getragen, der rot-weisse Gürtel, wie ihn der Lehrer Mimune trögt, schmückt die Inhaber des 6 bis 9.Ranges. Mimune ist einer der besten Judo-Kämpfer, er hat den 9. Rang inne

    My english translation:
    Kodokan, the university of Judo. Judo fighters during a cleaning ritual before the fight. The belt marks the rank of fighters. A black belt is worn by the 5th rank, the red and white belt as trögt him the teacher Mimune adorns the owner of 6 to 9.Ranges. Mimune is one of the best judo fighters, he has held the 9th place

    There is Mimune name used - may be typing error. I dont know.
     
    Kyuzo Mifune in Kodokan


    Source: Prof. Dr. Junyu Kitayama, Japans Geistigkeit und Tradition - Blaschke, Hanns (Hg.): Die Pause. 7. Jg., Heft 2. Wien, Preßverein des Wiener Bildungswerkes, 1942. 4° 36 S., german

    Anatol

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    Re: Mifune Kyūzō, 8th dan

    Post by Anatol on Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:13 pm

    The belt coulor for 9th Dan was changed in 1943 to red.

    The text is symptomatic for the Nazi ideology:

    Blood and soil (Rosenberg), nation and fate (fatum), will and power (Nietzsche), Mythos and Romanticism (Wagner), bad individualism and materialism (Hitler, Mein Kampf), the Decline of the West (Spengler), salvation through nationalism and community (Hitler).

    The East as an agricultural society, where individualism is nothing but community all, intuition over intellect, the cosmos as fate, power and structure, Heimat, nature, organic context, nothingness (Heidegger).

    All in all the nazi movement was a revolt against the age of enlightment, individual and civil rights, democracy, capitalism and materialism, modern art, progress and emancipation, modern ways of living (the 1920's), against socialism and social fragmentation on the other hand but not possible without the great depression.

    Going back to Judo and Mifune and Judo (and Kano):  

    Would be interesting to see some historical facts about Kodokan Judo between 1931 (occupation of Manchuria) and 1937 (massacre of Nanjing) and 1941 - 1945 (World War II). Because of "seiryoku zenyo" and "jita kyoei". The two underlying principles of Kodokan Judo were fully developed, Kodokan Judo was tought in schools, Kano still alive and agile (-1938) and Mifune at his physical-technical peak and in full charge of Kodokan (1938 - ).

    As an example: Zen failed abysmally as a teaching and practice for moral and ethics in WW II:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_at_War

    finarashi

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    Re: Mifune Kyūzō, 8th dan

    Post by finarashi on Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:49 am

    Anatol wrote:....

    Would be interesting to see some historical facts about Kodokan Judo between 1931 (occupation of Manchuria) and 1937 (massacre of Nanjing) and 1941 - 1945 (World War II). Because of "seiryoku zenyo" and "jita kyoei". The two underlying principles of Kodokan Judo were fully developed, Kodokan Judo was tought in schools, Kano still alive and agile (-1938) and Mifune at his physical-technical peak and in full charge of Kodokan (1938 - ).
    Very interesting period,
    - karate gains lots of followers; we lack any and all comments of Judoka about this development
    - similarly there is lack of English discussion of relationships between Judo and Aikido during that period
    - Kano is about to fulfill one of his dreams, Olympics in Tokyo; which fails due to Japanese occupation of parts of China
    - very interesting developments of Judo
    etc,

    So not all has been uncovered.


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    Jonesy

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    Re: Mifune Kyūzō, 8th dan

    Post by Jonesy on Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:59 am

    Anatol wrote:
    The belt coulor for 9th Dan was changed in 1943 to red.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_at_War
    Have you a reference for this please?

    Anatol

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    Re: Mifune Kyūzō, 8th dan

    Post by Anatol on Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:20 am

    Hi Jonesy

    The Dan system from 1930 had the 9th dan (kudan) in red/white. In 1943 the colour of kudan was changed from red/white to red.

    Source:

    Grundwissen der Geschichte des Kōdōkan-Jūdō in Japan,

    Teil 13: Entwicklung des Graduierungssystems

    (I try to translate:

    "Basic knowledge of Kodokan Judo History in Japan,

    Part 13: Development/Evolution of Grading System)

    by Wolfgang Dax-Romswinkel

    noboru

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    Last of the Judan by Andy Adams about Kyuzo Mifune

    Post by noboru on Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:43 pm

    In https://books.google.com in available for reading Black Belt magazine issue from February 1972 is article Last of the Judan by Andy Adams about Kyuzo Mifune.

    On the website https://books.google.com
    Try this direct link.
    https://books.google.cz/books?id=BNcDAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=cscs

    Look at the page 15.






    Jonesy

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    Re: Mifune Kyūzō, 8th dan

    Post by Jonesy on Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:38 am

    Anatol wrote:Hi Jonesy

    The Dan system from 1930 had the 9th dan (kudan) in red/white. In 1943 the colour of kudan was changed from red/white to red.

    Source:

    Grundwissen der Geschichte des Kōdōkan-Jūdō in Japan,

    Teil 13: Entwicklung des Graduierungssystems

    (I try to translate:

    "Basic knowledge of Kodokan Judo History in Japan,

    Part 13: Development/Evolution of Grading System)

    by Wolfgang Dax-Romswinkel
    Thanks. I wonder if there is an original Japanese source.

    Anatol

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    Re: Mifune Kyūzō, 8th dan

    Post by Anatol on Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:09 pm

    Hi Jonesy

    At least here is a proof by evidence, that Mifune didn't have a red belt in 1942 being kudan.

    The change in 1943 has maybe also something to do with Kodokan politics:

    Isogai and Nagaoke being "red belt" and Mifune "only" red and white (like dozens of other Kodokan Judo instructors).

    NBK

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    Re: Mifune Kyūzō, 8th dan

    Post by NBK on Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:38 am

    finarashi wrote:
    Anatol wrote:....

    Would be interesting to see some historical facts about Kodokan Judo between 1931 (occupation of Manchuria) and 1937 (massacre of Nanjing) and 1941 - 1945 (World War II). Because of "seiryoku zenyo" and "jita kyoei". The two underlying principles of Kodokan Judo were fully developed, Kodokan Judo was tought in schools, Kano still alive and agile (-1938) and Mifune at his physical-technical peak and in full charge of Kodokan (1938 - ).
    Very interesting period,
    - karate gains lots of followers; we lack any and all comments of Judoka about this development
    - similarly there is lack of English discussion of relationships between Judo and Aikido during that period
    - Kano is about to fulfill one of his dreams, Olympics in Tokyo; which fails due to Japanese occupation of parts of China
    - very interesting developments of Judo
    etc,

    So not all has been uncovered.
    Yes, there is a lot yet to be uncovered.

    I offer a bit of correction:
    - there were not a huge number of karatedoka prewar but the main number were in the universities. After the Nakano Intellligence School ditches Ueshiba (see below) he's replaced by a karatedoka to teach hand to hand combat.
    - in a real sense karatedo was almost a subset of judo, but enough about that.
    - one of Kano shihan's earliest students became a proponent of teaching karatedo. I can't see that Kano shihan ever answered him but the thought must have peeved him immensely
    - I think I have a bead on Kano shihan's thoughts about aikido, but it was strictly fringe, very small before the late 1940's / early 1950's. Ueshiba sensei taught only small groups introduced by the right people until he started mass military training in the mid- to late-1930s, which kept him hopping.... until he's dropped from the Nakano School, goes to Manchuria to promote Tomiki Kenji sensei as aikido's first 8dan (as they were both teaching aikibujutsu to the military - it's not clear that Ueshiba ever had rank in aikibujutsu), then returns to Japan and heads off to Iwama, leaving the dojo behind to his son. I have a theory as to why Ueshiba sensei splits, but there's no smoking gun as far as I know.
    - the Kodokan was very active in Korea and Japanese Sakhalin. Less so in Taiwan, mainland China and Manchuria but still active. There are reasons for all.

    Reinberger

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    Re: Mifune Kyūzō, 8th dan

    Post by Reinberger on Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:57 pm

    NBK wrote: ... it's not clear that Ueshiba ever had rank in aikibujutsu ...

    http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/images/2013-05/ueshiba-kyoju-dairi.jpg


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