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    Do you teach according to IJF dictates?

    [ 2 ]
    7% [7%] 
    [ 27 ]
    93% [93%] 

    Total Votes: 29
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    Creamy creamy baileys

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    More rules

    Post by Creamy creamy baileys on Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:59 pm

    http://betterjudo.com/potential-ijf-rule-changes-for-2013-2/

    So, at what point do you say to yourself "You know what? I'm just gonna teach judo - all of the judo I know - and rules be damned".

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    Hane-goshi

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    Re: More rules

    Post by Hane-goshi on Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:22 pm

    I didn't realized IJF invented Judo. Of course I do not teach Judo according to IJF. I teach Judo according to the founder of Judo and to the present Kodokan. Teaching IJF is only teaching my students to the rule of international shia rules, not Judo.
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    Ouch_that_hurts

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    Re: More rules

    Post by Ouch_that_hurts on Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:48 am

    Creamy creamy baileys wrote:http://betterjudo.com/potential-ijf-rule-changes-for-2013-2/

    So, at what point do you say to yourself "You know what? I'm just gonna teach judo - all of the judo I know - and rules be damned".


    So I have been told (by very high ranking judges) that the new rules are supposed to "take judo back to the way Kano sensei meant for judo to be", frankly I agree with the above statement though. The IJF didnt invent judo nor do they have its best interest in mind. they want to make money, plain and simple, they want judo to stay in the olypmics and be distinguished from wrestling and the like. if push came to shove and the IOC asked the IJF to either change the rule set and compromise the core of judo or be kicked out, you can bet where they would fall. thus i think we should be teaching JUDO, not IJFs bastardized version of it. when kids want to compete we still teach them judo but modify it as they move up to eventually meet whatever $H!tty rules are in place then.


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    radzfman

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    Re: More rules

    Post by radzfman on Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:20 am

    Did the IOC really ask the IJF to distinguish itself from wrestling?
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    Jonesy

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    Re: More rules

    Post by Jonesy on Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:40 am

    Nothing the IJF does is in the best interests of judo - rather, the dominant thinking is what is in the best interests of the IJF itself - particularly power, status and influence. All the changes they are making to judo are solely aimed at making judo more attractive to television and sponsors. Of course this is futile and doomed to fail, as no matter how much we all here love judo, it will always be a minority pursuit of very limited interest to the general population and hence TV and sponsors.

    I am sick of people saying "this and that is now banned in judo." The things they talk about are not banned from judo, rather only against the rules of IJF organised sports competitive judo - which is not the same at all.


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    Hanon

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    Re: More rules

    Post by Hanon on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:35 am

    Here is my simple answer and I lie not.

    I had my own dojo for 42 years. NON of my pupils learned about koka nor yuko. It was ippon or at the least Waza ari.

    I teach the gokyo and a myriad of henka waza period.

    The IJF, EJU nor federation have ever supported me nor my pupils so I owe them zero and have zero obligation to abide by a single word they write.

    I cannot for the life of me understand how or why anything the IJF does affects any of us mortals. The IJF et al are concerned with 0.0000001% of the worlds judo population so what the hell are you guys up in arms about? Does the IJF pay your judo club fees? Do they own your dojo or tatami. if they do then dance to their tune as they don't then practice kodokan judo. Its so simple.

    There ARE politics in judo, no doubt about it but this IJF crap shouldn't even concern any of us. Your judo, your dojo, you pay, you organise so do your judo. Jeeeeeez IJF....

    Mike
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    Davaro

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    Re: More rules

    Post by Davaro on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:23 pm

    As on the other thread... I teach Judo

    If/when there is a competition, I merely advise players of the rules and what they can/cannot do. It works for me...


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    JudoStu

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    Re: More rules

    Post by JudoStu on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:15 pm

    Davaro wrote:As on the other thread... I teach Judo

    If/when there is a competition, I merely advise players of the rules and what they can/cannot do. It works for me...

    I’m not an instructor but in my limited experience when the IJF ban a technique the clubs stop teaching it.

    At present techniques like Morote-gari are still on the BJA syllabus at 2nd kyu level, but I understand that the syllabus is soon to be changed.

    If Morote-gari is then removed from the syllabus due to the new IJF rules, how long before club coaches in the UK stop teaching it altogether.


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    Hanon

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    Re: More rules

    Post by Hanon on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:12 pm

    Davaro wrote:As on the other thread... I teach Judo

    If/when there is a competition, I merely advise players of the rules and what they can/cannot do. It works for me...



    Exactly. Why all the frequent and constant threads and debates about the IJF? There are outside forces that affected my dojo but never has the IJF been one of them. The weather is more concern to me.

    Mike
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    Davaro

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    Re: More rules

    Post by Davaro on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:46 pm

    JudoStu wrote:
    Davaro wrote:As on the other thread... I teach Judo

    If/when there is a competition, I merely advise players of the rules and what they can/cannot do. It works for me...

    I’m not an instructor but in my limited experience when the IJF ban a technique the clubs stop teaching it.

    At present techniques like Morote-gari are still on the BJA syllabus at 2nd kyu level, but I understand that the syllabus is soon to be changed.

    If Morote-gari is then removed from the syllabus due to the new IJF rules, how long before club coaches in the UK stop teaching it altogether.



    I hear your concern. But ultimately, that is something for the head Sensei to sort out.

    I have a syllabus for grading purposes etc. It does not, fe have morote-gari in it. But...

    I try to teach all of Judo. For grading, I require the students to grade according to the syllabus. The grading is actually just a formal thing we do anyway. I only allow students to grade that are ready. I dont just give a belt but expect them to know the required grading syllabus to standard. However, if I wanted to, I could ask of them to demonstate whatever it is that I have taught and would expect them to know.

    At a Dan grading, I have never been asked to do every single throw and would not expect to be asked. However, I should know how to if required. At the last one I attended, I was asked to demonstate Kata-Garuma... Also Ogoshi btw.

    The only "known" throw I refuse to teach, and correctly so, is Kani-Basami as it is no longer recognised anywhere in Judo as far as I know due to the inherent dangers of injury to knees.


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    Hanon

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    Re: More rules

    Post by Hanon on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:44 am

    [quote="Davaro"][quote="JudoStu"]
    Davaro wrote:



    At a Dan grading, I have never been asked to do every single throw and would not expect to be asked. However,
    .



    Hi Davro,

    Why would you not expect to demonstrate the gokyo at a dan grding?

    When I examined every pupil present regardless of rank would perform the syllabus from ukemi to what ever grade they where trying for. To me its imperative a 6th kyu's ogoshi is not the same as a sho dans and a san dan should be able to demonstrate a more proficient ogoshi than a sho dan etc. Grades should be a progression and a grading is the opportunity for a candidate to show how and in what areas he or she has progressed.

    I do understand this is not always the case at gradings and many dan grades, say for ni dan are expected to only show kata or one or two of the more complex waza. I disagree with this as did all my sensei before me. At ever grading one should show a progression in ones waza starting with the basics, the most important, and passing through to the more advanced.

    What are your thoughts on this?

    Kindest regards,

    Mike
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    accident_prone

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    Re: More rules

    Post by accident_prone on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:08 am

    JudoStu wrote:
    I’m not an instructor but in my limited experience when the IJF ban a technique the clubs stop teaching it.

    this has been my experience as well. we are a competition oriented dojo, and guys who specialized in morote gari and kata guruma have all found other throws to work on.

    in an odd twist of fate, we will be starting BJJ classes soon, and we may get a chance to work on those "banned" throws as we prepare for BJJ tournaments. ironic that it takes BJJ to keep judo in judo.

    Hanon

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    Re: More rules

    Post by Hanon on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:56 am

    accident_prone wrote:
    JudoStu wrote:
    I’m not an instructor but in my limited experience when the IJF ban a technique the clubs stop teaching it.

    this has been my experience as well. we are a competition oriented dojo, and guys who specialized in morote gari and kata guruma have all found other throws to work on.

    in an odd twist of fate, we will be starting BJJ classes soon, and we may get a chance to work on those "banned" throws as we prepare for BJJ tournaments. ironic that it takes BJJ to keep judo in judo.

    Indeed,

    More to this is the stupidity to think a champion relies on one waza? Inokuma would still have been a champion even if the IJF had banned seoinage, Yamashita-osotogari, Adams-juji gatame and tai otoshi, Kashiwazaki- tomoenage and so forth. Sure we associate some waza with those names but even without their tolui waza they would still have made champions. It has NEVER been about the technique but the person who practices judo that makes it count.

    Let the IJF ban what they want. How many will be affected by this? Those that are will very soon adapt, they will not moan and grown they are champions and the hallmark of a champion is adapting to what one has and what one faces. It is the non champions the bread and butter grass root judoka that tend to get their knickers in a twist about what the IJF do. Who, in reality, gives a frig?

    I noticed more and more that the practice of ne waza was being removed from general practice. Why? Because no sooner has a pair gone to the floor in IJF shiai than the ref' stands them up! Its absurd. What has happened, so many judoka now visit BJJ clubs and get their ass handed to them on a plate. This did not happen when my pupils visited BJJ clubs. Why? We practiced ne waza, a lot of it. The rules took some getting used to, I never have:D But this didn't stop one of my pupils entering a BJJ championship on the spur of the moment and winning a gold.

    The IJF do not hold a copyright on judo. They cannot dictate what you teach in your dojo. I don't think any of the officials would even want to visit our dojo and leave the warmth and security of their palace offices. They are only as strong as we allow them to be.

    Mike
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    Blacksmith

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    Re: More rules

    Post by Blacksmith on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:24 am

    Hanon sensei,

    I would not want to speak for anyone else, but these are the reasons for my concern/feelings about the new IJF rules. I appreciate the fact that I will not be participating in an event where the IJF has direct oversight. Since the IJF does not help me pay the rent at my dojo, they have no direct impact on what happens there. The problem in my mind is one of incrementalism. It is my belief (perhaps misguided) that there are a number of folks charged with putting together lesson plans that say "if my students can't do X in competition, why teach it? It is only one or maybe two techniques - what the big deal?" Add a technique or two to that over each Olympic cycle/rules testing period and in time the list is longer than a one or two.

    Someplace on the forum, there is a thread on atemi waza going on at this very moment. I'll bet you could sum it up like this "Wow. Shame nobody teaches it any more. Well you know, since it is not legal, there was no point in teaching it. After awhile - it just sort of died out." Is atemi waza critical to sport judo? Probably not. Is it part of judo? Yup.

    There is a similar ongoing discussion surrounding kata. The "I only need this for a test" vs "Helps you learn and improve in general" discussion. I'd take even odds that if you walked into a majority of dojo here in the States, you could find folks familiar with the nage no kata, and a couple that with a little practice could dust off theirs enough to show it/teach it. You might even find a few places where someone could do justice to katame no kata. I would be willing to bet that outside of those two, you most likely would be out of luck unless you went someplace that focuses on kata. Is kata essential to competitive judo? Maybe or maybe not. Is it essential to judo as intended?

    There is no doubt in my mind that the greats of the sport will find a way to be great, not matter how the rules are written and rewritten. My contention is that judo is bigger than the tiny fraction of folks at the top of the pyramid that the IJF directly impacts, that it is about the base of the pyramid who emulate what they see at the top.

    A generation or so down the road, folks will look back and think "Boy - it must have really been something back in the day when they had like 53 throws and 4 katas! I wonder if there are secret scrolls someplace that talk about the other throws/kata?" Rest assured however that they will be wearing the best logo'd IJF gi (and compression shorts) with IJF approved name badges on the back. The stands will be empty, the discussion will be about if we charged too little for it, if our marketing plan was not slick enough - not about if we let a great art turn to sport turn to memory.

    For what they are worth - my thoughts.

    Hanon

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    Re: More rules

    Post by Hanon on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:59 am

    Blacksmith wrote:Hanon sensei,

    I would not want to speak for anyone else, but these are the reasons for my concern/feelings about the new IJF rules. I appreciate the fact that I will not be participating in an event where the IJF has direct oversight. Since the IJF does not help me pay the rent at my dojo, they have no direct impact on what happens there. The problem in my mind is one of incrementalism. It is my belief (perhaps misguided) that there are a number of folks charged with putting together lesson plans that say "if my students can't do X in competition, why teach it? It is only one or maybe two techniques - what the big deal?" Add a technique or two to that over each Olympic cycle/rules testing period and in time the list is longer than a one or two.

    Someplace on the forum, there is a thread on atemi waza going on at this very moment. I'll bet you could sum it up like this "Wow. Shame nobody teaches it any more. Well you know, since it is not legal, there was no point in teaching it. After awhile - it just sort of died out." Is atemi waza critical to sport judo? Probably not. Is it part of judo? Yup.

    There is a similar ongoing discussion surrounding kata. The "I only need this for a test" vs "Helps you learn and improve in general" discussion. I'd take even odds that if you walked into a majority of dojo here in the States, you could find folks familiar with the nage no kata, and a couple that with a little practice could dust off theirs enough to show it/teach it. You might even find a few places where someone could do justice to katame no kata. I would be willing to bet that outside of those two, you most likely would be out of luck unless you went someplace that focuses on kata. Is kata essential to competitive judo? Maybe or maybe not. Is it essential to judo as intended?

    There is no doubt in my mind that the greats of the sport will find a way to be great, not matter how the rules are written and rewritten. My contention is that judo is bigger than the tiny fraction of folks at the top of the pyramid that the IJF directly impacts, that it is about the base of the pyramid who emulate what they see at the top.

    A generation or so down the road, folks will look back and think "Boy - it must have really been something back in the day when they had like 53 throws and 4 katas! I wonder if there are secret scrolls someplace that talk about the other throws/kata?" Rest assured however that they will be wearing the best logo'd IJF gi (and compression shorts) with IJF approved name badges on the back. The stands will be empty, the discussion will be about if we charged too little for it, if our marketing plan was not slick enough - not about if we let a great art turn to sport turn to memory.

    For what they are worth - my thoughts.



    Hi,


    Maybe I have not made my points well? I AGREE with every word you write. My point is why take any notice of the IJF to start with and now many of us even need to? I agree about atemi and have said so even the same is applying to ne waza. An Ippon is now a joke.

    The federations that belong to the union's that affiliate to the IJF are where the work needs to be done. At club level refuse to accept such rules and inform your federation, they in turn will inform the union who will then inform the IJF. Why are we going to allow the tiny tale to wag a very large dog?

    Just who are the IJF and WHY WHY WHY do the majority, no, the vast majority allow themselves to be dictated to by them. Vote with your membership and wrote to your federation, that's where the real effectiveness can begin. The Majority have the real power here not this detached from reality minority.

    Mike

    tom herold

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    Re: More rules

    Post by tom herold on Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:24 am

    Hanon wrote:Here is my simple answer and I lie not.

    I had my own dojo for 42 years. NON of my pupils learned about koka nor yuko. It was ippon or at the least Waza ari.

    I teach the gokyo and a myriad of henka waza period.

    The IJF, EJU nor federation have ever supported me nor my pupils so I owe them zero and have zero obligation to abide by a single word they write.

    I cannot for the life of me understand how or why anything the IJF does affects any of us mortals. The IJF et al are concerned with 0.0000001% of the worlds judo population so what the hell are you guys up in arms about? Does the IJF pay your judo club fees? Do they own your dojo or tatami. if they do then dance to their tune as they don't then practice kodokan judo. Its so simple.

    There ARE politics in judo, no doubt about it but this IJF crap shouldn't even concern any of us. Your judo, your dojo, you pay, you organise so do your judo. Jeeeeeez IJF....

    Mike
    Dear Hanon Sensei,
    you are right and I could not agree more.

    Unfortunately the situation here in Germany is a bit ... difficult.
    Nearly all the judo-clubs are members of the National German Judo Association (DJB).
    And the one and only aim of this association is to teach and promote judo as a sport.

    Nothing to say against.
    But it is difficult in Germany to get places to practis judo in.
    Lots of people do not want to pay realistic fee for training, because the german system of sports organisation allows to train for such a little money ...

    The organized schools get money from the government so they can offer training for peanuts.
    Then, on the other hand, the national sports association determines just also the training contents.

    Therefore, judo is equated in Germany almost everywhere with the concept "Sports judo".
    Therefore, judo is equated in Germany almost everywhere with the concept "Sports judo".
    Who does not join exactly, therefore, to the national association - as well as my students and I - he has it hard.

    This is why the new rules of the IJF will be integrated in Germany in the training of most judo schools.
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    Rensa

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    Re: More rules

    Post by Rensa on Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:23 am

    Judo as a sport is either for physical exercise only or for competition. In judo as a competitive sport, judoka need to follow rules, simple as that.

    Ergo: judo as a competition sport is restricting judo heavily when the rules are restricting techniques.
    Judo without shiai on the other hand is no complete judo, even while judo is more than shiai only.

    The only way to solve the dilemma is maybe: practice complete judo and teach the 'exceptions' on that: what we call competition rules, lol.
    Where I train we had great judo yesterday, with even elements from jujitsu and aikido in it. Sensei said: this is not allowed in competition, but great technique. Hajime.


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    tom herold

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    Re: More rules

    Post by tom herold on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:23 am

    Ergo: judo as a competition sport is restricting judo heavily when the rules are restricting techniques.
    Judo without shiai on the other hand is no complete judo, even while judo is more than shiai only.
    I do agree.

    On the other hand ... is it necessary to join competitions held by the judosports associations?
    I don't think so.

    My students take part with success in grappling matches.
    Submission wrestling, grappling ... they take part in the "with gi"-division and in the "no-gi"-division.
    The rules there are less restrictive.

    So we solved the problem to have shiai without to have to join the German National Judo Association.
    (Note: In Germany you can't take part in the judo competitions held by the national association unless you are a member of it).
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    Davaro

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    Re: More rules

    Post by Davaro on Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:11 pm

    [quote="Hanon"][quote="Davaro"]
    JudoStu wrote:
    Davaro wrote:



    At a Dan grading, I have never been asked to do every single throw and would not expect to be asked. However,
    .



    Hi Davro,

    Why would you not expect to demonstrate the gokyo at a dan grding?

    When I examined every pupil present regardless of rank would perform the syllabus from ukemi to what ever grade they where trying for. To me its imperative a 6th kyu's ogoshi is not the same as a sho dans and a san dan should be able to demonstrate a more proficient ogoshi than a sho dan etc. Grades should be a progression and a grading is the opportunity for a candidate to show how and in what areas he or she has progressed.

    I do understand this is not always the case at gradings and many dan grades, say for ni dan are expected to only show kata or one or two of the more complex waza. I disagree with this as did all my sensei before me. At ever grading one should show a progression in ones waza starting with the basics, the most important, and passing through to the more advanced.

    What are your thoughts on this?

    Kindest regards,

    Mike

    Hi Mike,

    You as always make valid points. What I was trying to say is that it is seldom asked to do the entire gokyu. However, one should know it. At our gradings one can be asked to do any throw as well as breaking it down to demonstrate clear understanding of all aspects thereof. To ask each candidate to do all of them would take a long time. We generally have, if we are lucky, only two dan gradings in the country for the year and there are a lot of candidates. It takes a week to complete. Kata is also a standard requirement. Even for Shodan, complete nage no kata, as well as all the techniques from katame no kata in order to demonstrate newaza aspects. It must be demonstrated as it is done in the kata but not the actual kata. Nidan, both full kata, and so forth.

    I agree 100% with your thoughts on how a grading should be conducted and also that all grades should know and demonstrate all techniques according to the grade they are being examined for. Our Dan gradings are however done by our national grading panel and never merely at club level. This is, I guess to ensure national parity on grades.


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    Dew wrote:
    We could have a poll - but if the majority vote for "Judo roly poly" its going to ignite fascist dictatorlike tendencies lurking within me.


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    JudoStu

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    Re: More rules

    Post by JudoStu on Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:01 am

    I’m waiting for WBW to find this forum and give us his opinion:lol:


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    seatea

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    Re: More rules

    Post by seatea on Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:52 am

    JudoStu wrote:I’m waiting for WBW to find this forum and give us his opinion:lol:
    His wisdom and knowledge is greatly missed. -_-

    As to the rule changes, I do not much like them. I feel the rule set used these past few years was a decent compromise between promoting 'stand up' judo and recognising that leg grabs are effective techniques.

    Kasrkin

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    Re: More rules

    Post by Kasrkin on Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:43 am

    I was always curious as to what would happen if leg grabs remained legal, but with a maximum score of Waza-ari. This would enable both contestants to continue on the ground, Uke in an attempt to level the score/win, and Tori to win from an advantageous position. This would lessen the risk of an instant loss from a leg grab, and mean that a successful leg grab opens up oppprtunities for both players.

    Of course this is just day dreaming. Very Happy

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