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    Basic or classic uchi mata?

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    EternalStudent

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    Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by EternalStudent on Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:19 am

    Hello all,

    Ive got some questions regarding uchi mata. First off: Im sorry if its been asked before, as it seems to me it would be something that would be noticed by anyone that dug a little deeper into the workings of uchi mata, but I couldnt find anything on this forum regarding this matter.

    I've been taught to attack uke's left/near leg with uchi mata. Now, I never really got the hang of this throw and this got me wondering wether I was missing the point. Diving into the vast amount of (mis)information that de internet has to offer, I discovered that some high level judoka (like Katanishi and Inoue) are sweeping uke's right/far leg instead. This has got me confused, because that would mean I was being taught wrong, but also that my book "Kodokan Judo" ( http://www.amazon.com/Kodokan-Judo-Essential-Founder-Jigoro/dp/4770017995 ) misinformed me, as it also says to sweep the left/near leg.

    The sensei in this video refers to sweeping the right/far leg as 'basic uchi mata', and sweeping the left/near leg (as Ive been taught) as 'ken-ken uchi mata'.

    Ive seen other videos of sensei refering to sweeping the right/far leg as 'basic' or 'classic' uchi mata.

    My questions are:
    1a. What is in fact the basic form of uchi mata; sweeping the left or the right leg? Is there such a thing? Does the leg matter?
    1b. And if sweeping the right/far leg is the 'basic' form of uchi mata, why is my Kodokan book not mentioning it? I would suspect that the kodokan version would be the 'basic' or 'classic' version.

    And as a followup: I showed the 'basic' version to my (5th dan) judo teacher, and he said it would be more of a hane goshi if I executed it like that.
    This would be in line with a couple of hane goshi demonstrations Ive seen where the execution looked more like an uchi mata on uke's right/far leg, with tori's leg kept a bit bent.
    Something like in this video:


    Now something tells me that the difference should be obvious, but I can understand where the reaction of my teacher is coming from.
    My final question: What would be the key difference(s) between the 'basic' uchi mata, and hane goshi. In other words, how would I convince my sensei (if I wanted to) that its not hane goshi at all, but indeed 'basic' uchi mata.

    Thanks for any insight into these matters.


    Last edited by EternalStudent on Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:24 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : added near/far to indicate what leg; changed reaping to sweeping as it seemed more appropriate; changed videolinks to inline youtube)
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    noboru

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    uchimata - ashi , koshi , hane goshi

    Post by noboru on Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:20 pm

    I'm trying to get some answers to your some questions.

    I recognize three versions of uchimata (Ashi, Koshi (Uchimata Goshi), Kenken). May be any uchimata specialist know told more - via DVD about Uchimata from Kosei Inoue.

    I think that Ashi variation of Uchimata is basic form - you can see it to Nage no kata. I saw some older demonstrations of Nage no kata ( as ) and the there the Ashi Uchimata. He uses more leg than in modern demonstration of Nage no kata.

    Look at time 1:40 - Old demonstration of Nage no kata - Tori: S.Nagaoka 8.dan, Uke: K.Murakami 5.dan


    In the same video in time 22:40 is modern demonstration of Uchimata in Nage no kata.


    It looks like that in the past was some developing of Asi Uchimata for more using hips. The result of developing of Uchimata in the times goes to Koshi variation of Uchimata.

    Kenken Ucimata - I know the explanation of Yasuhiro Yamashita and it is Ashi Uchimata with circle jumping with strong pulling/pushing opponent to down.


    My understanding of differencies between Ashi Uchimata, Koshi Uchimata and Hane goshi (simple description):
    Ashi Uchimata: target for sweeping up is opponent's left leg (area between his knee and crotch) - used my leg more than hip
    Koshi Uchimata (Uchimata Goshi): target for sweeping up is opponent's right leg (area near his crotch) - used my hip more than leg - my and opponent hip are in connecting
    Hane goshi: target for sweeping up is opponent's right leg (area shin/shank), here is strong spring movement of my legs (both my legs are bend and the moment for my attack with Hanegoshi is if uke goes back - he makes step back and gives the his fore leg to his back leg)  - my and opponent hip are connecting

    May be someone will correct my opinions.


    Last edited by noboru on Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:25 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : the word harai replaced sweeping up)
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    noboru

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by noboru on Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:06 pm

    Here is one of variation of Kosei Inoue Uchimata. Very similar to Hane goshi. I think that it is Inoue personal variation of Uchimata Goshi than Kihon (basic) execution.



    Here Kosei Inoue performs Nage no kata - time 4:10 - he performs Uchimata Ashi ( as is in Nage no kata )
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    EternalStudent

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by EternalStudent on Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:33 pm

    noboru wrote:Here is one of variation of Kosei Inoue Uchimata. Very similar to Hane goshi
    Thank you for your feedback. I find this point very interesting.

    Not to derail the topic to a pure 'uchimata vs hanegoshi' discussion, but what you say is similar to what my teacher is saying.
    But surely there has to be more to hanegoshi (compared to uchimata) than to just sweeping the far leg and keeping your sweeping leg a bit bent?


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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by noboru on Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:20 am


    Here is Hane goshi from Kodokan original VHS.


    Here is Uchimata from Hidehiko Yoshida - Uchimata Goshi, Uchimata Kenken


    Here is some variations of Uchimata from Yasuhiro Yamashita (I think that in executions more as Ashi, sometimes as Koshi) . Here are clear deifferences from Inoue or Yoshida version.


    Uchi mata (内股) - 内 inside 股 crotch - may be it all is
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    EternalStudent

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by EternalStudent on Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:13 am

    Thank you.

    I've certainly seen all these videos in my quest for information. Sadly they don't really answer my questions.
    Sure, I can watch them over and over again, compare them to my own way of doing things, but that doesn't change anything.

    It does seem (mostly from the kata video's) that sweeping the near leg would be the 'old' way of doing things. This is in line with my Kodokan book. But, why then is reaping the far leg refered to as 'classical' or 'basic'? From what I can tell, this 'variation' is more modern.

    And then still, what exactly distinguishes this style of uchimata from hanegoshi? Even after seeing these and other videos, Im not sure how to answer that, as the two techniques can look very much alike. If I were to guess, it has to do with the position and motion of uke (where he falls, is he 'floated' or not) and the use of the sweeping leg (is it a line for uke to fall over, or is it used to propel/guide uke up and more or less forward?)


    Last edited by EternalStudent on Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:15 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : better paragraphs)


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    Ryvai

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Ryvai on Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:08 am

    EternalStudent wrote:But, why then is reaping the far leg refered to as 'classical' or 'basic'? From what I can tell, this 'variation' is more modern.

    The 'basic' uchimata is by definition ashi-waza, however in contemporary Judo the involvement of the hip seems to become more and more popular (according to T. Daigo in his book; Kodokan Throwing Techniques). The uchimata in nage-no-kata is rotational, but attacks the nearest leg. I have however seen four categories of uchimata, being referred too, several places;

    • Kenken-uchimata (hopping)
    • Ko-uchimata (attacking the nearest leg. Uke's left leg in migi-shizentai) 'basic'
    • Taka-uchimata (reaping up the middle)
    • O-uchimata (attacking the furthest leg. Uke's right leg in migi-shizentai) 'Inoue-style' with more hip involvement, may resemble hane-goshi.

    I would consider the 'ko-uchimata' in this case to be the basic form. Katanishi explains that the throw comes from your lower back and butt, by keeping a firm and stable posture. If the kuzushi is present and your position is good, almost no reaping action is necessary. By swinging your leg backwards uke is lifted anyway, hence why taka-uchimata works. Your butt does a lot of work.

    The Judo scholar Sacripanti also argues that there a modern variation, which he calls ushiro-uchimata that exists, which does not fit into the current terminology, where you attack front vs. front. Lift up uke up using your leg on the inside of uke's thigh, turning uke mid-air and throw backwards (similar to ura-nage).
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    about Uchimata from Toshiro Daigo book

    Post by noboru on Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:19 am

    Below is a quote from chapter about uchimata from Toshiro Daigo book - Kodokan throwing techniques - page 190.

    "In the original uchi-mata, tori sweeps up uke`s left leg with his right leg, which brings it under ashi-waza techniques. But increasily, we see a kind of koshi-waza technique where tori loads uke onto his waist and sweeps him up.
    Consequently, uchi-mata is classified under both ashi-waza and koshi waza, but the koshi-waza type of uchi-mata described here is a practical technique.
    This technique is similar to hane-goshi. If tori scoops uke up using the waist and leg from a posture with his right knee bent, it is then classified as hanegoshi."
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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by EternalStudent on Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:46 pm

    Ryvai wrote:The 'basic' uchimata is by definition ashi-waza, however in contemporary Judo the involvement of the hip seems to become more and more popular (according to T. Daigo in his book; Kodokan Throwing Techniques).
    noboru wrote:Below is a quote from chapter about uchimata from Toshiro Daigo book - Kodokan throwing techniques - page 190.

    Thank you Ryvai and Noboru. Much appreciated.

    The quotes from your books would indicate that that the 'classic' (ko-)uchi mata is indeed when you sweep the near leg.
    This ofcourse leaves the question why some (even high level) judoka refer to sweeping the far leg (accompanied with more hip entry) as 'basic' or 'classic' uchi mata?

    Maybe it's the terminology? From Daigo's book we can say that the classic (as in 'in old times') uchi mata is sweeping the near leg. Maybe the term 'classic' used today means something more like 'the standard way of doing/learning things in these times'? I found this article for example, which refers to Inoue's (tobikomi) uchimata as 'classic'.
    http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1gu5c/MatsideMagazineOctob/resources/33.htm

    noboru wrote:"But increasily, we see a kind of koshi-waza technique where tori loads uke onto his waist and sweeps him up. Consequently, uchi-mata is classified under both ashi-waza and koshi waza, but the koshi-waza type of uchi-mata described here is a practical technique.
    This technique is similar to hane-goshi. If tori scoops uke up using the waist and leg from a posture with his right knee bent, it is then classified as hanegoshi."

    Interesting. But if this is true, how would uchi mata as executed by for example Inoue and Katanishi still be classified as 'uchi mata'? According to the above, wouldn't it be hane goshi?


    Last edited by EternalStudent on Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:48 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : paragraphing)


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    Inoue's (tobikomi) uchimata

    Post by noboru on Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:21 pm

    EternalStudent wrote:
    I found this article for example, which refers to Inoue's (tobikomi) uchimata as 'classic'.
    http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1gu5c/MatsideMagazineOctob/resources/33.htm

    Below is link where sensei Hirano Ryosaku demonstrates onestep Hanegoshi. I think that execution is the same as Inoue's Tobikomi Uchimata.




    EternalStudent wrote:
    Interesting. But if this is true, how would uchi mata as executed by for example Inoue and Katanishi still be classified as 'uchi mata'? According to the above, wouldn't it be hane goshi?

    I think that you have right - I think that from Kodokan way of view is this execution of Uchimata right named as Hanegoshi. Daigo in his Kodokan book try to make order in terms of Nagewaza and try to explain kihon "basic" execution and variations.

    For example - in our country we use the term Teguruma for one Nagewaza technique (term te guruma 手車 used in Mifune's book Canon of judo).  Daigo the same technique describes as variation of Sukuinage. For me is Daigo's book the reference NB.1 about naming and explanations of Nagewaza - I don't have the better source about Nagewaza.
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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Ryvai on Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:35 pm

    EternalStudent wrote:Interesting. But if this is true, how would uchi mata as executed by for example Inoue and Katanishi still be classified as 'uchi mata'? According to the above, wouldn't it be hane goshi?

    I've found the distinction between hane-goshi and uchi-mata attacking the far leg to be very troublesome. I was told the 'classic explanation' of; "If the leg is bent, it becomes hane-goshi". But this is not descriptive at all to what actually happens. Fuel is added to the fire when I watch videos of Jean Luc Barré performing his hane-goshi in this video, which resembles a lot of o-uchi-mata I've seen;

    Jean Luc Barré on hane-goshi and uchi-mata:


    However, the subtle difference between o-uchi-mata and hane-goshi seems to be explained in the video already posted by noburu.

    Hirano Ryosaku sensei on Hane-goshi. Pay attention to @3:25, there seems to be an explanation of direction.


    It is my opinion that it appears that in hane-goshi (koshi-waza) uke is lifted up and thrown down using your bent leg, your side and ultimately the power coming from your hip, with uke falling more or less on the spot. In o-uchi-mata however, uke is projected forwards. While there is some hip action involved, the throw comes from your leg being on the inside of uke's thigh and extending backwards, that topples him over.

    I would love for some of the more knowledgeable sensei here to explain the subtle difference between these techniques Smile
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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by EternalStudent on Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:24 am

    Thank you both again. Ive seen Hirano sensei's video indeed, as it is constructive for all sorts of things for (appearently) uchi mata and hane goshi entry.

    Ryvai wrote:It is my opinion that it appears that in hane-goshi (koshi-waza) uke is lifted up and thrown down using your bent leg, your side and ultimately the power coming from your hip, with uke falling more or less on the spot. In o-uchi-mata however, uke is projected forwards. While there is some hip action involved, the throw comes from your leg being on the inside of uke's thigh and extending backwards, that topples him over.
    Agreed. This is in line with what I speculated earlier:
    EternalStudent wrote:And then still, what exactly distinguishes this style of uchimata from hanegoshi? Even after seeing these and other videos, Im not sure how to answer that, as the two techniques can look very much alike. If I were to guess, it has to do with the position and motion of uke (where he falls, is he 'floated' or not) and the use of the sweeping leg (is it a line for uke to fall over, or is it used to propel/guide uke up and more or less forward?)

    If I were to combine our speculations, the outcome would be something like this:

    Uchi Mata

    • Combined hip and leg action, but emphasis on the sweeping leg
    • Position of the sweeping leg on the inside of either leg of uke
    • Uke gets projected forwards


    Hane Goshi

    • Combined hip and leg action, but emphasis on the hip
    • Position of the sweeping leg is against uke's leg
    • Uke gets lifted/floated up and topples over tori's leg and hip, and lends more or less on the spot

    Would you agree?

    Ryvai wrote:I would love for some of the more knowledgeable sensei here to explain the subtle difference between these techniques Smile

    Definitely agreed.


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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Ryvai on Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:07 am

    EternalStudent wrote:
    Uchi Mata

    • Combined hip and leg action, but emphasis on the sweeping leg
    • Position of the sweeping leg on the inside of either leg of uke
    • Uke gets projected forwards


    Hane Goshi

    • Combined hip and leg action, but emphasis on the hip
    • Position of the sweeping leg is against uke's leg
    • Uke gets lifted/floated up and topples over tori's leg and hip, and lends more or less on the spot


    To specify, we are here talking about the specific variation of uchi-mata where we attack the far leg (right leg from migi-shizentai). In hane-goshi the fulcrum is the hip, the leg is only lifting and guiding. To more accurately adjust your assessment I can post outtakes from two books regarding hane-goshi that seem to explain the motion in better words than mine and shows a difference principle is at hand compared to uchi-mata;

    Dynamic Judo: Throwing techniques - by Kazuzo Kudo (page 105) on hane-goshi, the attack;
    1. The instant your opponent brings his right foot forward, step in between his feet with your left foot, heel first.
    2. After you do this, your toes should be pointing in the same direction as your opponent's right foot.
    3. Your right leg should be naturally and slightly bent. Keep your buttocks tight against his abdomen, and let your outside of your right leg contact the inside of his right leg.
    4. With a snap, straigthen your left knee, and bounce your opponent up and straight back.
    5. Twist both your head and your upper body to the left, and using the action of both arms, throw your opponent.


    Kodokan Throwing Techniques - by Toshiro Daigo on Hane-goshi (page 100);
    Tori breaks uke's balance to his right (left) front corner or straight forward, pulls uke and throws him with the back of the right (left) hip and right (left) leg in an upward springing action. His body to the left to throw him down. Uke's body is thrown in a large circle around the fulcrum of uke's right hip.

    Hope that helps Smile
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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by icb on Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:39 am

    You two are converging on roughly the correct answers, but the discussion you've had indicates the problems with trying to understand and learn judo techniques from books and videos.

    Instructional videos are taught from a particular perspective for a certain audience, and just watching them on-line you don't necessarily have the appropriate background to appreciate that perspective and context. You could easily pick up some major components of the techniques from watching the videos and be completely oblivious to a number of other different major and minor issues. An instructor watching you and teaching you will be able to pick up on such things.
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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Ryvai on Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:13 am

    icb wrote:You two are converging on roughly the correct answers, but the discussion you've had indicates the problems with trying to understand and learn judo techniques from books and videos.

    Instructional videos are taught from a particular perspective for a certain audience, and just watching them on-line you don't necessarily have the appropriate background to appreciate that perspective and context.  You could easily pick up some major components of the techniques from watching the videos and be completely oblivious to a number of other different major and minor issues.  An instructor watching you and teaching you will be able to pick up on such things.

    While you are right on so many levels I still believe it is healthy with 'mondo' (questions and answers/discussion) to try to gain some understanding of the problem at hand. If we are converging closely to the answer then I believe some success is achieved. if there is effort there is always accomplishment, right? :p

    I quote; Shinichi Oimatsu [The Bulletin for the Scientific Study of Kodokan Judo, Volume VI, 1984]:
    "Professor Kano expounded on the method of Judo instruction and put forth four items: (1) kata (form), (2) randori (free practice) (3) kogi (lectures), and (4) mondo (questions and answers)"

    Unfortunately I am not blessed with a high-ranking sensei that could differentiate the two techniques in question. Where I train competition Judo is the main focus. Correct terminology and such is left mostly for the 'specially' interested if you will. One could argue that it does not matter what the name is, and rightfully so, it's just ippon, however that does not help the studying Judoka, seeking to understand the subtle differences. In that situation I've been forced to think pro-actively, combining 'mondo' on forums, studying Judo abroad and learning from international seminars on the internet, one could see that as a form of 'kogi'. Then ultimately trying to apply what I've learned through 'randori' with guidance of my Judo-teacher. While this way is not perfect, I have achieved great success with this type of study, in terms of development. Had it not been for the posts by certain members of this community my knowledge would only be a fraction of today and I'm eternally thankful for that. 'Learning by doing' is definitely the way to go, but for some of us, these types of discussions is a very effective way of seeing the fine details in play Smile
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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by EternalStudent on Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:19 pm

    icb wrote:Instructional videos are taught from a particular perspective for a certain audience, and just watching them on-line you don't necessarily have the appropriate background to appreciate that perspective and context.  You could easily pick up some major components of the techniques from watching the videos and be completely oblivious to a number of other different major and minor issues.  An instructor watching you and teaching you will be able to pick up on such things.

    Thank you. You certainly have a most valid point. However, the discussion here was not about learning (how to) to execute uchimata or hanegoshi. Rather it was focused on what the basic form of uchi mata was/is, what the origin of the technique dubbed here as O uchi mata is and how that form differs from hane goshi, as the two techniques seem very much alike. The videos and quotes from books mentioned here mainly serve as illustrative examples and 'evidence' if you will.

    Altough I have the opportunity to train under a skilled sensei, this is still the opinion of only one person, and his answer only raised some more questions for me. This is why I think it's good to turn to places like this, where many great minds gather Wink.

    icb wrote:You two are converging on roughly the correct answers
    By the word 'roughly' you are implying that you could fill in some gaps for us. If there is anything you could add to the discussion, it would be much appreciated.



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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by icb on Fri Oct 17, 2014 4:25 am

    EternalStudent wrote:
    icb wrote:You two are converging on roughly the correct answers
    By the word 'roughly' you are implying that you could fill in some gaps for us. If there is anything you could add to the discussion, it would be much appreciated.

    Okay.  I'll give some feedback on your earlier list:

    EternalStudent wrote:
    If I were to combine our speculations, the outcome would be something like this:

    Uchi Mata

    • Combined hip and leg action, but emphasis on the sweeping leg
    • Position of the sweeping leg on the inside of either leg of uke
    • Uke gets projected forwards


    Hane Goshi

    • Combined hip and leg action, but emphasis on the hip
    • Position of the sweeping leg is against uke's leg
    • Uke gets lifted/floated up and topples over tori's leg and hip, and lends more or less on the spot

    Would you agree?


    The first two points you've given for each throw roughly describe the fundamentals of each throw, but if the hip is not in the correct position in uchi mata, then the leg action may not to be effectual.  In the video noboru posted of Inoue, there is often very little leg contact, but if the "sweeping" leg doesn't swing in the correct way, then the upper body and hip action aren't going to be correct.

    The third point you've given for each throw is roughly correct for static throwing, but where uke lands even for hane goshi starting in a static position can depend on how far tori chooses to turn their upper body at the kake phase.  If uke is moving forwards, then their momentum is going to contribute to them landing further forwards.  In contrast, for the nage no kata version of uchi mata, depending on the timing of tori's leg action relative to uke's circling movement, uke may land more or less on the spot or may be projected further forwards.  Again, this is partly dependent on how far tori decides to turn their upper body to complete the throw.
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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by EternalStudent on Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:30 am

    icb wrote:
    The first two points you've given for each throw roughly describe the fundamentals of each throw, but if the hip is not in the correct position in uchi mata, then the leg action may not to be effectual.  In the video noboru posted of Inoue, there is often very little leg contact, but if the "sweeping" leg doesn't swing in the correct way, then the upper body and hip action aren't going to be correct.

    The third point you've given for each throw is roughly correct for static throwing, but where uke lands even for hane goshi starting in a static position can depend on how far tori chooses to turn their upper body at the kake phase.  If uke is moving forwards, then their momentum is going to contribute to them landing further forwards.  In contrast, for the nage no kata version of uchi mata, depending on the timing of tori's leg action relative to uke's circling movement, uke may land more or less on the spot or may be projected further forwards.  Again, this is partly dependent on how far tori decides to turn their upper body to complete the throw.

    Thank you for your reply.
    For the record, again, this isnt about uchimata vs hanegoshi per se, but more about how to distinguish between 'O-uchi-mata' in the style Inoue performs the technique and hanegoshi, and about the origins of 'O-uchi-mata'.

    You say that in Inoues video, there is 'often very little leg contact'. Im assuming you are referring to this video:

    And, if I understand correctly, you indicate that the sweeping of the leg is more to assure correct upper-body and hip position/action than to sweep uke's leg. Would you say this would be different in hanegoshi?

    I would debate that there is indeed leg contact in Inoue's uchimata, and that it's important to the execution (and definition) of the throw.
    More often than not, I've seen people swinging the leg up, but not (or hardly) moving their upper body (and head) down. This would indicate that sweeping the leg does not result in correct upper body movement per se, and therefore they are not related in the way you suggest.
    It's an interesting point regardless.


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    icb

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by icb on Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:07 am

    EternalStudent wrote:
    icb wrote:
    The first two points you've given for each throw roughly describe the fundamentals of each throw, but if the hip is not in the correct position in uchi mata, then the leg action may not to be effectual.  In the video noboru posted of Inoue, there is often very little leg contact, but if the "sweeping" leg doesn't swing in the correct way, then the upper body and hip action aren't going to be correct.

    The third point you've given for each throw is roughly correct for static throwing, but where uke lands even for hane goshi starting in a static position can depend on how far tori chooses to turn their upper body at the kake phase.  If uke is moving forwards, then their momentum is going to contribute to them landing further forwards.  In contrast, for the nage no kata version of uchi mata, depending on the timing of tori's leg action relative to uke's circling movement, uke may land more or less on the spot or may be projected further forwards.  Again, this is partly dependent on how far tori decides to turn their upper body to complete the throw.

    Thank you for your reply.
    For the record, again, this isnt about uchimata vs hanegoshi per se, but more about how to distinguish between 'O-uchi-mata' in the style Inoue performs the technique and hanegoshi, and about the origins of 'O-uchi-mata'.

    You say that in Inoues video, there is 'often very little leg contact'. Im assuming you are referring to this video:

    And, if I understand correctly, you indicate that the sweeping of the leg is more to assure correct upper-body and hip position/action than to sweep uke's leg. Would you say this would be different in hanegoshi?

    I would debate that there is indeed leg contact in Inoue's uchimata, and that it's important to the execution (and definition) of the throw.
    More often than not, I've seen people swinging the leg up, but not (or hardly) moving their upper body (and head) down. This would indicate that sweeping the leg does not result in correct upper body movement per se, and therefore they are not related in the way you suggest.
    It's an interesting point regardless.

    Again, this has to do with which leg you are sweeping and how uke is moving when doing uchi mata. In the nage no kata, tori is sweeping the near leg of a moving uke, so the leg action and timing are more important, and the upper body movement less so. In the versions where tori sweeps more up the middle or towards the far leg, then the upper body action becomes more significant, particularly if uke is static. If you sweep up with your leg in that case, without the correct kuzushi and upper body movement, you are just going to "kick" them where it hurts.
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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:02 am

    EternalStudent wrote:Thank you.

    I've certainly seen all these videos in my quest for information. Sadly they don't really answer my questions.
    Sure, I can watch them over and over again, compare them to my own way of doing things, but that doesn't change anything.

    It does seem (mostly from the kata video's) that sweeping the near leg would be the 'old' way of doing things. This is in line with my Kodokan book. But, why then is reaping the far leg refered to as 'classical' or 'basic'? From what I can tell, this 'variation' is more modern.

    And then still, what exactly distinguishes this style of uchimata from hanegoshi? Even after seeing these and other videos, Im not sure how to answer that, as the two techniques can look very much alike. If I were to guess, it has to do with the position and motion of uke (where he falls, is he 'floated' or not) and the use of the sweeping leg (is it a line for uke to fall over, or is it used to propel/guide uke up and more or less forward?)

    So is it reap or sweep ?

    The far leg isn't reaped or swept in the "versions" of Uchi Mata. Can be touched/brushed as tori legs goes between uke legs, but that's not the primary focus of the throw.

    I think you are confusing yourself with all the variations of Uchi Mata.

    Ken-ken, for example, is either a method of entry (although some here have told me not), or, a method to save a not quite so good entry, or react to uke defense/reaction. Heck, there are even a couple of ways I know of to do "Ken Ken" Uchi Mata.

    The basic Uchi Mata hits uke inner thigh with the back of your thigh (usually clearly illustrated in Nage No Kata). In terms of variations, what you see are basically methods for dealing with different grip/posture/movement combinations that lead to variations of Uchi Mata.

    Get the basic down. Post some video of you doing Uchi Mata. Usually there are issue/problems involved that are basic, rather than trying to do variations. If your basic is good/strong, the variations are not that big a deal.



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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Wandering WB on Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:00 am

    I can do the hanegoshi uchimata easily and it's highly effective for me. Should I bother to learn basic uchimata?

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by medo on Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:13 am

    Lol he he he bless him
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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by EternalStudent on Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:11 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    So is it reap or sweep ?
    The far leg isn't reaped or swept in the "versions" of Uchi Mata. Can be touched/brushed as tori legs goes between uke legs, but that's not the primary focus of the throw.

    Thank you for your reply.

    I used the term reap or sweep to address the leg action, and I guess for lack of a better word (at the time). What would be a better term then? Hooking? Guiding?

    And, seeing uchimata is originally classified as ashi-waza, one can say that the leg action actually is the primary focus of the throw. Ofcourse, all throws consists of several stages, but what makes ashi waza is that the actual kake phase is done with a leg/foot action, is it not? What, according to you is the primary focus of the throw then?

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    I think you are confusing yourself with all the variations of Uchi Mata.
    Not at all. Im just looking to understand the origins of several 'variations' and how they are to be distinguished from other variations (and other techniques).
    Seeing as there is a vast array of opinions (which is understandable), Im not looking for the one 'truth'. Merely hoping to broaden my understanding by replies in this topic Smile

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    The basic Uchi Mata hits uke inner thigh with the back of your thigh (usually clearly illustrated in Nage No Kata). In terms of variations, what you see are basically methods for dealing with different grip/posture/movement combinations that lead to variations of Uchi Mata.
    So, then by your definition, does it matter which (inner) thigh you 'hit'? And if not, is Inoue's version still a variation, or can it still be labeled as classic uchi mata?
    His starting grip/posture/entry do not look different than standard to me.

    And my question actually is how to distinguish his execution of uchi mata from hane goshi, as there seems to be confusion/debate about this.

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Get the basic down. Post some video of you doing Uchi Mata.
    Usually there are issue/problems involved that are basic, rather than trying to do variations. If your basic is good/strong, the variations are not that big a deal.
    This is not about me wanting to learn how to do uchi mata. And as you can see from my forum alias, I consider myself to be always learning, no matter my rank in judo Wink


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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:41 am

    Wandering WB wrote:I can do the hanegoshi uchimata easily and it's highly effective for me. Should I bother to learn basic uchimata?

    Please post video of yourself doing that "hanegoshi uchi mata". I'm interested to see that !


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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:26 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:So is it reap or sweep ?
    The far leg isn't reaped or swept in the "versions" of Uchi Mata. Can be touched/brushed as tori legs goes between uke legs, but that's not the primary focus of the throw.

    EternalStudent wrote:Thank you for your reply.

    I used the term reap or sweep to address the leg action, and I guess for lack of a better word (at the time). What would be a better term then? Hooking? Guiding?

    I'd say "hit" at this point...

    My point is that "reap" and "sweep" have two distinct meanings in Judo (barai and kari) that imply specific types of actions. I'm not sure how the leg action in Uchi Mata is classified, I'm guessing it's neither a sweep or a reap. I've been told that the original meaning of Uchi Mata was "thigh hit" not "inner thigh", maybe someone will clarify that issue if we are lucky.

    EternalStudent wrote:And, seeing uchimata is originally classified as ashi-waza, one can say that the leg action actually is the primary focus of the throw. Of course, all throws consists of several stages, but what makes ashi waza is that the actual kake phase is done with a leg/foot action, is it not? What, according to you is the primary focus of the throw then?

    Well, sort of...the leg action facilitates the throw by lifting/hitting uke leg/lower body in one direction while the upper body pushes/turns in the opposite direction, a "force-couple" in the more modern terminology. However, in the original Kodokan classification, you are correct I think.

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    I think you are confusing yourself with all the variations of Uchi Mata.

    EternalStudent wrote:Not at all. I'm just looking to understand the origins of several 'variations' and how they are to be distinguished from other variations (and other techniques).
    Seeing as there is a vast array of opinions (which is understandable), I'm not looking for the one 'truth'. Merely hoping to broaden my understanding by replies in this topic Smile

    OK, I'm going to a place that may seem rude to you, however, I don't intend to be rude. Look it this a me playing "Devil's Advocate" or something similar.

    Looking at the variations in isolation may not be the best approach. Consider under what conditions the variations might be useful. Conditions being relative posture, grip, relative size of uke and tori, direction and speed of movement of uke and tori. Perhaps the different variations arose as solutions to specific situations.

    The reason I bring that up is that I had similar questions a few years ago. We had a visiting instructor from Tokai University at our university judo club...he was with us for about a year and a half. We went over Uchi Mata quite a bit (which didn't make me an expert by any means, LOL!, but he was...). The upshot is that the various leg positions/hip vs leg, ken ken, etc variations of Uchi Mata or Uchi Mata-like throws arose from specific situations as I outlined above. So the origins were in practicality to deal with situations that arose in randori and shiai.

    I won't pretend t have understood all he taught, or have been able to do all of them correctly. However, that particular series of lessons over several weeks made a big impression on me, and the lesson applied to variations of other throws and katame waza as well over the year and a half we were honored by his presence.

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    The basic Uchi Mata hits uke inner thigh with the back of your thigh (usually clearly illustrated in Nage No Kata). In terms of variations, what you see are basically methods for dealing with different grip/posture/movement combinations that lead to variations of Uchi Mata.
    EternalStudent wrote:So, then by your definition, does it matter which (inner) thigh you 'hit'? And if not, is Inoue version still a variation, or can it still be labeled as classic uchi mata?
    His starting grip/posture/entry do not look different than standard to me.

    And my question actually is how to distinguish his execution of uchi mata from hane goshi, as there seems to be confusion/debate abou

    Hane Goshi is "spring hip"...there has to be some sort of springing action, I think one of our former "senior" members described the motion as helical in nature. Just hitting uke far leg doesn't make the throw Hane Goshi, that much I do know.

    I'd call what Inoue demonstrates as "standard",although it can be done "standard" in different ways more or less. I think he is trying to show the principles of the throw. Watch his the video below to see how it works in competition for him. Same basic principles apply...

    Whether or not it's Uchi Mata I'm not so sure, but it's an "Uchi Mata-like" throw, perhaps. Not everything you can do in Judo has a proper Judo name.

    Oh, and watch a bit of footage of Mr. Inoue doing in competition. I'm not sure how many times you will see him hitting the far leg. Here is a very famous video you may have seen.
    https:www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k2oXxEOyUQ

    or this...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5axqhZ4W4Ic

    Here you go, my point of reference for Hane Goshi..he explained it in more detail in the "old" judo forum in writing, good luck in finding that though...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de_JNHY2vww&list=UUAfh6sQhY4lq6XC_btVxiiA

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Get the basic down. Post some video of you doing Uchi Mata.
    Usually there are issue/problems involved that are basic, rather than trying to do variations. If your basic is good/strong, the variations are not that big a deal.
    EternalStudent wrote:This is not about me wanting to learn how to do uchi mata. And as you can see from my forum alias, I consider myself to be always learning, no matter my rank in judo Wink

    I've got nothing against academic discussions, don't get me wrong. I often wonder though if it's a lot simpler than we make it out to be..."we" including myself.


    Last edited by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:53 am; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : Trying to get the quotes to make sense...)


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