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    Basic or classic uchi mata?

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    Wandering WB

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Wandering WB on Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:56 am

    Ben Reinheardt
    Please post video of yourself doing that "hanegoshi uchi mata". I'm interested to see that !
    Why the sudden curiosity, Ben? I don't really understand medo's reaction either. I don't recall claiming it was as good as Kosei Inoue uchimata or anything of that nature. And how about an answer to my question, do I need a basic uchimata in my arsenal or is being able to sweep the far leg for a hanegoshi uchimata suffiecient?

    jkw

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by jkw on Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:58 pm

    Wandering WB wrote:Ben Reinheardt
    Please post video of yourself doing that "hanegoshi uchi mata". I'm interested to see that !
    Why the sudden curiosity, Ben? I don't really understand medo's reaction either. I don't recall claiming it was as good as Kosei Inoue uchimata or anything of that nature. And how about an answer to my question, do I need a basic uchimata in my arsenal or is being able to sweep the far leg for a hanegoshi uchimata suffiecient?

    I think the name you are using is the problem. Hane-goshi is one kind of throw, uchi-mata is another kind. You can't physically do both at the same time as the two movements are mutually exclusive, so the name doesn't really make sense. It's a bit like calling a throw "seoi-nage koshi-guruma". The concept of the two techniques is different.

    I was taught that the difference between hane-goshi and uchi-mata is not about which leg you are attacking or where - rather the difference is in the principle of the throw.

    The best description I read on the forum for uchi-mata is a sort of o-soto-gari in reverse (of course for this to make sense you must also understand o-soto-gari which also isn't easy). Hane-goshi uses a springing motion from the core and supporting leg. I think both throws can attack either leg of uke, depending on circumstances.

    jkw

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by jkw on Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:45 am

    There is a good description of hane-goshi vs. uchi-mata in this thread -
    http://judo.forumsmotion.com/t1179-shohei-ono-waza

    See post no. 11
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:49 am

    Wandering WB wrote:Ben Reinheardt
    Please post video of yourself doing that "hanegoshi uchi mata". I'm interested to see that !
    Why the sudden curiosity, Ben? I don't really understand medo's reaction either. I don't recall claiming it was as good as Kosei Inoue uchimata or anything of that nature. And how about an answer to my question, do I need a basic uchimata in my arsenal or is being able to sweep the far leg for a hanegoshi uchimata suffiecient?

    I am looking for an example of Hanegoshi Uchi Mata. I think you mean the one where your brush against uke far leg.

    Hane Goshi and Uchi Mata are in end member forms of different techniques.

    In terms of learning Judo, Uchi Mata is a good throw to know. Whether or not it can be a effective part of our "arsenal" depends on how well you do it and exactly what you want to do with it.



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    Wandering WB

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Wandering WB on Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:43 am

    "Hanegoshi" uchimata should have the first word in quotes. Basically I enter just like I would for harai goshi and sweep my leg up against the far inner thigh. There is a gentle hip action, but mostly it's just leg. I'm not posting any videos in the near future.

    medo

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by medo on Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:15 pm

    As a white belt with little mat time(if thats believable) can I suggest you learn and practice throws within the lower kyu grades and the distinctions between these techniques.
    What you describe as hanegoshi uchimata above, tends to be labled ko uchimata to refer to harai goshi sweeping the inner thigh shows that you need to find a good instructor who will take you back to basics.

    Wandering WB

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Wandering WB on Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:26 am

    I am sure the guy teaching class at our judo club is competent... I don't need to find anything.

    medo

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by medo on Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:20 am

    Good then be humble and learn, don't give advice to others on here when you have no clue what your talking about.

    Wandering WB

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Wandering WB on Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:31 am

    Medo, you seriously need to get over the pathetic grudge you have against me. Get a grip on yourself, man. I did not start martilal arts training yesterday like you are making it sound. It's been seven years. Further, this is a public board where anyone can express their opinion on martial arts related stuff. I post here because I enjoy it, and it's not for some nobody on the Internet to censor me.

    medo

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by medo on Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:22 am

    Well then I hope others will help you. On your last appearance as WB wandering you brought the old forum to a slanging match not only with me but many others as you kept giving wrong advice insisting you were correct and here you are again doing exactly the same. Can I suggest joining bullshido's forum you may enjoy posting there..

    Wandering WB

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Wandering WB on Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:43 am

    Medo, no one is forcing you to read my posts. If you believe the advice I give is wrong then don't follow it. However, just because you disagree with it doesn't make it wrong. Perhaps you are the one who needs to go to Bullshido since you clearly enjoy the personal attacks.

    medo

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by medo on Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:46 am

    Unfortunately I will read your posts and I do hope that now you are training judo that your knowledge will improve, meanwhile why not just ask questions or give us your thoughts on what you learnt at your last class. You said you where shown two throws that you had not seen before in your 7 years of bjj thats interesting some of us old timers may be able to give you little pointers that may help you..

    Wandering WB

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Wandering WB on Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:54 am

    Medo if your responses to my posts are going to be one prolonged personal attack, then please, just leave me alone. As to your question... Last class I realized just how hopelessly out of shape I am. I had to sit out because I got dizzy. I was thrown full force by a heavier blackbelt, who then transitioned into osaekomi. Not that we waited for twenty five seconds to find out if he could hang on to it, but it was pretty discouraging. My own attempt at a armbar from standing against him was properly defended and I didn't know how to enter for any of the turning in throws against his lapel grip. I couldn't strip it either, so I will have to revisit standing grip breaks, something I was never good at it in the first place. I tried attacking with an osoto-osoto-ouchi combination that I know, but I was too far away.
    There were no new throws shown, but I saw two new newaza techniques. The teacher asked if anyone knew the turning away escape from yoko shiho gatame. I raised my hands and proceeded to demonstrate an escape which started from clasped hands posture on the bottom to walking away to all fours. Turned out to judo people I showed an escape from modified yoko shiho gatame, since that's what I would have dealt with from bjj. When put in yoko shiho gatame where they grab between the legs, all I could think of was the reverse triangle. So I bridged and stiff armed the head into it. That's not what the teacher meant. He demonstrated a technique where you stiff arm the head and than apply a razor lock to the elbow and roll away, taking your partner over.
    Another interesting move he showed was what he called a bridge and roll from under mount. I don't know if that's what it's called in BJJ but that's not the point. From tate shiho gatame as he called it. The situation there was really far gone, to the point where the uke practically had a head and arm triangle choke with the hands. He showed how to get out of it by putting uke into a cradle from the bottom - bridge, one arm under the leg another arm over the shoulder and chain link. Then bridge and roll the uke into an underhook guardpass. Last step was secure the lapel so he couldn't roll away.
    What else interesting happened. I footswept a much heavier greenbelt, who seemed to be taking it easy, or at least wasn't spazzing. I also went one for one in standing randori with another greenbelt. Yes, by the way while I am on the subject of greenbelts, the one I was training with one my first day and said my throws were perfect during moving nagekomi practice had a black gi. He is seventeen and had been training judo for thirteen years. Kid years but still. Makes me wonder just how many people out there are under-ranked.
    In newaza I went with the same whitebelt twice. He was solid over two hundred pounds to my one fifty and although I told myself to take it easy, he made me expend energy. He grip fought, tried pushing my belt into my face from under mount and lifted me up while inside my guard. Somebody showed him the collar drag, and I was surprised when he got his hand into my collar and pulled me right onto his back. I choked him four times in two rounds. Still felt something was off, because three of my standing sweeps on him failed and I didn't want to just go for chokes, I wanted his arm, but he kept his elbows in tight and was just to strong. In retrospect I should have set it up with a cross collar choke to armbar two move combination, but I took an ezekiel instead.
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    EternalStudent

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by EternalStudent on Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:19 pm

    Please stop derailing this topic


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    EternalStudent

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by EternalStudent on Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:06 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    OK, I'm going to a place that may seem rude to you, however, I don't intend to be rude. Look it this a me playing "Devil's Advocate" or something similar.
    Thank you for your replies.

    No need to be that polite. I came here asking for opinions. How can I take offense then when people give me their opinions? Smile
    And by playing my own devil's advocate is part of the reason I came here in the first place. As a matter of fact, I personally feel you should always play your own devil's advocate in everything you do.

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Looking at the variations in isolation may not be the best approach. Consider under what conditions the variations might be useful. Conditions being relative posture, grip, relative size of uke and tori, direction and speed of movement of uke and tori. Perhaps the different variations arose as solutions to specific situations.
    Interesting notion. I will take it to heart.

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    EternalStudent wrote:So, then by your definition, does it matter which (inner) thigh you 'hit'? And if not, is Inoue version still a variation, or can it still be labeled as classic uchi mata?
    His starting grip/posture/entry do not look different than standard to me.

    And my question actually is how to distinguish his execution of uchi mata from hane goshi, as there seems to be confusion/debate abou

    Hane Goshi is "spring hip"...there has to be some sort of springing action, I think one of our former "senior" members described the motion as helical in nature. Just hitting uke far leg doesn't make the throw Hane Goshi, that much I do know.
    This is exactly what I was thinking. It cant be that hitting the far leg (and perhaps keeping your leg a bit bent) changes uchi mata into hane goshi. Hane goshi has to rely on an entirely different principle to make it hane goshi.
    But then, in post no.8 of this topic, Noboru quoted Toshiro Daigo like this:

    "In the original uchi-mata, tori sweeps up uke`s left leg with his right leg, which brings it under ashi-waza techniques. But increasily, we see a kind of koshi-waza technique where tori loads uke onto his waist and sweeps him up.
    Consequently, uchi-mata is classified under both ashi-waza and koshi waza, but the koshi-waza type of uchi-mata described here is a practical technique.
    This technique is similar to hane-goshi. If tori scoops uke up using the waist and leg from a posture with his right knee bent, it is then classified as hanegoshi."

    So, to me, this quote indicates that if you execute uchi mata in a more 'koshi' fashion, the line between this technique and hane goshi becomes very fine.
    Now, from my own experience, executing uchi mata as a koshi waza technique leaves little room for attacking uke's near leg. This is because when you enter more for a hip kind of throw, your attacking leg has passed uke's near leg most likely. and you'll most likely end up hitting uke where it hurts. That is why I think you aim for uke's far leg when executing uchi mata like this. This, at least, makes sense to me. But Im very much open for opinions on this.
    What is confusing here though, is that altough Daigo makes the distinction between koshi-waza and ashi-waza, he does not seem to imply any other principle that makes the technique hane goshi. He is basically saying "if you change uchi mata into a koshi waza technique (first part of the quote) and keep your knee bent (last part of the quote), the technique changes from uchi mata to hane goshi. Or am I missing something here?

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    I'd call what Inoue demonstrates as "standard",although it can be done "standard" in different ways more or less. I think he is trying to show the principles of the throw. Watch his the video below to see how it works in competition for him. Same basic principles apply...
    Well, exactly this is somewhat of another mistery to me: You see all these well known judoka (Inoue, Koga, Katanishi, etc) executing uchi mata in a more or less koshi waza style. If anything, they clearly attack uke's far leg in their 'turorial' video's. But in real competition, none of them (at least not Inoue) seem to perform uchi mata that way. They always go for the near leg. At least, Ive never seen an uchi mata in a competition  match where the far leg is attacked. Why is this?

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Not everything you can do in Judo has a proper Judo name.
    For sure. And Im all for not overly classifying everything. A famous martial artist said 'be like water', and I think that would be appropriate here ;-)

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    I've got nothing against academic discussions, don't get me wrong. I often wonder though if it's a lot simpler than we make it out to be..."we" including myself.
    Food for thought indeed.


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    EternalStudent

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by EternalStudent on Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:13 am

    jkw wrote:
    I was taught that the difference between hane-goshi and uchi-mata is not about which leg you are attacking or where - rather the difference is in the principle of the throw.

    Thank you for your reply.

    What you say is what I was thinking, but see my reply to Ben (above) to why I still have/had questions on this.

    jkw wrote:
    Hane-goshi uses a springing motion from the core and supporting leg.
    Could you perhaps elaborate a bit on that? I know this is the 'core' principe for hane goshi, but I've read and heard multiple views on this.
    The explanations vary from the springing motion should be in the supporting leg, in the hip, in the core, in the 'sweeping' leg, or in a combination of the aforementioned.

    jkw wrote:There is a good description of hane-goshi vs. uchi-mata in this thread -
    http://judo.forumsmotion.com/t1179-shohei-ono-waza
    See post no. 11
    Thank you for that, that was very insightful.
    Especially the part of the biomechanics for both throws and also the pdf supplied by Ryvai later on.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:06 am

    Wandering WB wrote:"Hanegoshi" uchimata should have the first word in quotes. Basically I enter just like I would for harai goshi and sweep my leg up against the far inner thigh. There is a gentle hip action, but mostly it's just leg. I'm not posting any videos in the near future.

    OK, that makes sense now. I usually find that it's much more of a hip throw when done as you describe, though. with uke riding on the back of my hip, rather than the back of my thigh hitting the inside of the "near" leg (uke left left if I'm throwing right handed). Of course, if you hit uke in the groin (not saying you do), I guess it still counts as ashi waza.

    To answer your question, both versions have their uses. You might want to familiarize yourself with hitting the "near" thigh type of Uchi Mata. Sometimes due to grip/posture/movement it's hard to get in position for the "far leg" version. Experiment and see what you can find out.



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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:09 am

    medo wrote:Well then I hope others will help you. On your last appearance as WB wandering you brought the old forum to a slanging match not only with me but many others as you kept giving wrong advice insisting you were correct and here you are again doing exactly the same. Can I suggest joining bullshido's forum you may enjoy posting there..

    I post at bullshido.net, so come on over, WB and roll around in the mud with the rest of us barbarians.



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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:34 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Looking at the variations in isolation may not be the best approach. Consider under what conditions the variations might be useful. Conditions being relative posture, grip, relative size of uke and tori, direction and speed of movement of uke and tori. Perhaps the different variations arose as solutions to specific situations.
    EternalStudent wrote:Interesting notion. I will take it to heart.

    EternalStudent wrote:So, then by your definition, does it matter which (inner) thigh you 'hit'? And if not, is Inoue version still a variation, or can it still be labeled as classic uchi mata?
    His starting grip/posture/entry do not look different than standard to me.

    Missed this one. I don't think that in the "far leg" version, you really "hit" uke thigh or leg. More of a brushing action. I go on about that a bit further below.

    EternalStudent wrote:And my question actually is how to distinguish his execution of uchi mata from hane goshi, as there seems to be confusion/debate about

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:Hane Goshi is "spring hip"...there has to be some sort of springing action, I think one of our former "senior" members described the motion as helical in nature. Just hitting uke far leg doesn't make the throw Hane Goshi, that much I do know.

    EternalStudent wrote:This is exactly what I was thinking. It cant be that hitting the far leg (and perhaps keeping your leg a bit bent) changes uchi mata into hane goshi. Hane goshi has to rely on an entirely different principle to make it hane goshi.
    But then, in post no.8 of this topic, Noboru quoted Toshiro Daigo like this:

    "In the original uchi-mata, tori sweeps up uke`s left leg with his right leg, which brings it under ashi-waza techniques. But increasily, we see a kind of koshi-waza technique where tori loads uke onto his waist and sweeps him up.
    Consequently, uchi-mata is classified under both ashi-waza and koshi waza, but the koshi-waza type of uchi-mata described here is a practical technique.
    This technique is similar to hane-goshi. If tori scoops uke up using the waist and leg from a posture with his right knee bent, it is then classified as hanegoshi."

    So, to me, this quote indicates that if you execute uchi mata in a more 'koshi' fashion, the line between this technique and hane goshi becomes very fine.
    Now, from my own experience, executing uchi mata as a koshi waza technique leaves little room for attacking uke's near leg. This is because when you enter more for a hip kind of throw, your attacking leg has passed uke's near leg most likely. and you'll most likely end up hitting uke where it hurts. That is why I think you aim for uke's far leg when executing uchi mata like this. This, at least, makes sense to me. But Im very much open for opinions on this.
    What is confusing here though, is that altough Daigo makes the distinction between koshi-waza and ashi-waza, he does not seem to imply any other principle that makes the technique hane goshi. He is basically saying "if you change uchi mata into a koshi waza technique (first part of the quote) and keep your knee bent (last part of the quote), the technique changes from uchi mata to hane goshi. Or am I missing something here?

    A couple of things. 1.) I understand from posters here that the English translation of Mr. Daigo book that you quote (that I do own, although do not have handy at this moment) is not the best, and in fact that the entire book is an abridged edition. Apparently, though, the German version, at least, is the "full" version.

    2.) I think that a key part is that the that the "koshi type" of Uchi Mata is described as a "practical technique". To me, that means it is possibly a variation...something that looks like Uchi Mata but doesn't fall under the exact original principal. But it's not quite  Hane Goshi, either, but, if you bend your leg, place it against uke "far" leg, and scoop up (with the hip?), it is a kind of Hane Goshi.

    3. Because Hane Goshi, in it's pure form (as an exemplar of the "spring hip principle?"), is a koshi waza, action of the leg to throw uke isn't or shouldn't be necessary. It's the hip that springs, not the leg, although in practicality, some of both can happen. Getting into position and hitting uke "far"  leg up or out doesn't necessarily make the throw Hane Goshi. That's what I've gleaned from numerous conversation here, as well as with others in person (not from this board that I know of). The leg is a sort of a guide for the hip, so to speak.

    4.) The "leg as guide" idea I think may go for the more koshi like uchi mata you are seeing in Mr. Inoue video. It works the same to the outside in Harai Goshi, for example, which in it's "pure" form is a koshi waza, not a ashi waza, hence, tori leg doesn't need to hit or sweep uke leg, although you will see descriptions of the throw saying that tori leg "sweeps" uke leg...in a practical sense, the leg may well get "swept", and, like the more "koshi-like" version of Uchi Mata, it's a "practical technique" or application of the throw.


    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    I'd call what Inoue demonstrates as "standard",although it can be done "standard" in different ways more or less. I think he is trying to show the principles of the throw. Watch his the video below to see how it works in competition for him. Same basic principles apply...
    EternalStudent wrote:Well, exactly this is somewhat of another mystery to me: You see all these well known judoka (Inoue, Koga, Katanishi, etc) executing uchi mata in a more or less koshi waza style. If anything, they clearly attack uke's far leg in their 'turorial' video's. But in real competition, none of them (at least not Inoue) seem to perform uchi mata that way. They always go for the near leg. At least, Ive never seen an uchi mata in a competition  match where the far leg is attacked. Why is this?

    I find it amusing that I'm going into so much detail on this when others vastly more qualified than myself are not. Hopefully they will jump in if I make a mistake. A lot of my ideas were directly formed here, so I can't take credit for a lot of what I write. What I have learned here has stood up to the reality of my own experience and discussions in person with other knowledgeable judoka.

    I think I posted those videos to point that out to you. I can only guess, but I think that the "brush the far leg" type of uchi mata that many demonstrate is supposed to show more of a basic type of body positioning and use of tsukuri/tai sabaki, than anything else. That sort of body position is basic to most forward throws. Pretty much from where Mr. Inoue ends up, tori can do Uchi Mata (or something like it), Harai Goshi, Hon and henka of Tsurikomi Goshi, Seoi Nage, etc, all with minor variations of body placement and use of hands etc.

    Which makes sense, as I think he and others are trying to show something basic. Something that I see missing from a lot of judoka. Getting into more detail, they all, especially Mr. Katanishi (whom I could watch do judo all day everyday), do go into details of specific throws as to relative body posture, positioning, use of hands, etc.

    Oh, and nobody "attacks" the far leg. At best the inside of uke leg is brushed, although you can kind of support uke weight on the leg (tori right leg for right hand throw)...again, it's like a guide for the rest of the body in my experience. Additionally, the "far leg/koshi" version is much, much easier to control in a demonstration setting, to stop in the middle or other stages, and makes for an nicer fall for uke. Hitting inside of uke near leg is much more dynamic and harder to control/slow down in a demonstration setting.

    That is for sure true for me personally, but I'm far from an expert at Uchi Mata. I just play one on TV.

    And for a grand finale, some great competitors don't necessarily know why they are teaching what they teach. Not saying Mr. Inoue is one, just to consider that when you watch instructionals by former elite level competitors.

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Not everything you can do in Judo has a proper Judo name.
    EternalStudent wrote:For sure. And I'm all for not overly classifying everything. A famous martial artist said 'be like water', and I think that would be appropriate here ;-)

    He must not have been a judoka or he would have said "be like beer".


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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by BillC on Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:11 pm

    Dang ... this forum hasn't had a wild exchange like this that I recall ... far less wild than the old JF. Sorry to pour gasoline on the fire ... but I miss a good old-fashioned flame war!

    Bring it on, people. I am tired of posters here who walk around holding a 10 yen coin between their butt-cheeks ...

    ... which might be a good way to differentiate uchimata and hanegoshi, BTW.


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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by EternalStudent on Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:50 pm

    Thank you, Ben, for taking your time to respond to this thread. Its really helpful.

    I could go on about asking the exact whys and hows, but I had to take a look at my original post to see what my questions initially were.
    Let's see if I can summarize a bit, and forgive me for using terms like near/far leg, I just dont know what better terms to use Smile

    EternalStudent wrote:
    My questions are:
    1a. What is in fact the basic form of uchi mata; sweeping the left or the right leg? Is there such a thing? Does the leg matter?
    1b. And if sweeping the right/far leg is the 'basic' form of uchi mata, why is my Kodokan book not mentioning it? I would suspect that the kodokan version would be the 'basic' or 'classic' version.

    From all the responses here I think I can conclude the following:
    - The blunt anwser to the questions above is that the basic form of uchi mata, as far as the Kodokan is concerned, focusses on the near leg. Just like my Kodokan book describes.
    - In the end, the leg you focus on does not matter with uchi mata, it could either be the far or the near leg. As a matter of fact, with most techniques discussed in this topic, which one of uke's legs tori focusses on does not matter, and rarely has something to do with the classification of the technique.
    -  Focussing uchi mata on uke's far leg could be named as a variation, but seeing it is a 'variation' that is not (or hardly?) used in 'reality' (f.e. competition), it makes more sense that it is used for teaching/learning purposes, as it is an easier form to control, where the student can focus more on entry, posture, grip, balance, and so on.

    EternalStudent wrote:
    My final question: What would be the key difference(s) between the 'basic' uchi mata, and hane goshi. In other words, how would I convince my sensei (if I wanted to) that its not hane goshi at all, but indeed 'basic' uchi mata.

    The key to answering this is that hane goshi clearly has a different underlying principle. This would have been a no brainer to be honest, but the quote by Daigo sensei caused confusion. My current conclusion is that some things got lost in translation in his (english) book. I think it's safe to say that Daigo sensei would never mix up uchi mata and hane goshi, and he would know the difference for sure. That said, his quote should thus be not be interpreted as 'simple' as it is, as it is not complete.

    Thank you all so far for helping me come to these conclusions so far. If is there is anything in the above that can be corrected, please let me know.

    The only other thing that interests me now is the principle of the 'hip spring'.
    Like I've said in my reply to jkw I've heard and read so many different takes on this. The explanations vary from the springing motion should be in the supporting leg, in the hip, in the core, in the 'sweeping' leg, or in a combination of the aforementioned.

    Any insights on what would be the correct technique?


    Last edited by EternalStudent on Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:31 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : spelling/grammar)


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    EternalStudent

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by EternalStudent on Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:50 pm

    BillC wrote:I am tired of posters here who walk around holding a 10 yen coin between their butt-cheeks ...
    ... which might be a good way to differentiate uchimata and hanegoshi, BTW.
    Would you care to elaborate a bit? Smile


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:36 am

    EternalStudent wrote:Please stop derailing this topic

    I agree wholeheartedly. WB, you do ask some decent questions. If you want to feud with Medo, start another thread, maybe in the off-topic section ?

    And no, I'm not going to argue with you any further on this topic here.


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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:47 am

    BillC wrote:Dang ... this forum hasn't had a wild exchange like this that I recall ... far less wild than the old JF.  Sorry to pour gasoline on the fire ... but I miss a good old-fashioned flame war!  

    Bring it on, people. I am tired of posters here who walk around holding a 10 yen coin between their butt-cheeks ...

    ... which might be a good way to differentiate uchimata and hanegoshi, BTW.

    Please feel free to exhibit your usual leadership in that area, Bill.

    Which throw works better while going commando, Uchi Mata or Hane Goshi ? Which is better, jock strap or compression shorts , in terms of helping to cover that extra distance between a far and near leg Uchi Mata ?

    There, debana aplenty...however, in fairness to WB, start another thread !



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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:08 am

    EternalStudent wrote:Thank you, Ben, for taking your time to respond to this thread. Its really helpful.

    I could go on about asking the exact whys and hows, but I had to take a look at my original post to see what my questions initially were.
    Let's see if I can summarize a bit, and forgive me for using terms like near/far leg, I just don't know what better terms to use Smile

    I think that "near" and "far" leg describe body positioning, and work pretty well.

    EternalStudent wrote:
    My questions are:
    1a. What is in fact the basic form of uchi mata; sweeping the left or the right leg? Is there such a thing? Does the leg matter?
    1b. And if sweeping the right/far leg is the 'basic' form of uchi mata, why is my Kodokan book not mentioning it? I would suspect that the kodokan version would be the 'basic' or 'classic' version.

    EternalStudent wrote:From all the responses here I think I can conclude the following:
    - The blunt answer to the questions above is that the basic form of uchi mata, as far as the Kodokan is concerned, focuses on the near leg. Just like my Kodokan book describes.

    I agree, Uchi Mata hits the "near" leg is a "normal" or "classical" Uchi Mata, and is an ashi waza under the Kodokan classification.

    EternalStudent wrote:- In the end, the leg you focus on does not matter with uchi mata, it could either be the far or the near leg. As a matter of fact, with most techniques discussed in this topic, which one of uke's legs tori focuses on does not matter, and rarely has something to do with the classification of the technique.

    The whole near/far leg thing is kind of a distraction, although a common one. I'm not saying you in particular, but often judoka (and often less experienced ones) latch onto terms/names like "near and far leg Uchi Mata", and make a lot more of them than is necessary. You came back to the original answer, after all this typing and reading that hitting the inner thigh of uke that is closest to tori is, in fact, a "normal" or hon Uchi Mata.

    Or perhaps "sono ichi" in Daigo Sensei book.

    EternalStudent wrote:Focusing uchi mata on uke's far leg could be named as a variation, but seeing it is a 'variation' that is not (or hardly?) used in 'reality' (f.e. competition), it makes more sense that it is used for teaching/learning purposes, as it is an easier form to control, where the student can focus more on entry, posture, grip, balance, and so on.

    That's my take on it at this point in time. I know a few people here have trained with Mr. Inoue. Perhaps he addressed some of these issues.

    EternalStudent wrote:
    My final question: What would be the key difference(s) between the 'basic' uchi mata, and hane goshi. In other words, how would I convince my sensei (if I wanted to) that its not hane goshi at all, but indeed 'basic' uchi mata.

    EternalStudent wrote:The key to answering this is that hane goshi clearly has a different underlying principle. This would have been a no brainer to be honest, but the quote by Daigo sensei caused confusion. My current conclusion is that some things got lost in translation in his (english) book. I think it's safe to say that Daigo sensei would never mix up uchi mata and hane goshi, and he would know the difference for sure. That said, his quote should thus be not be interpreted as 'simple' as it is, as it is not complete.

    They are obviously different throws, for sure. And I didn't say that things got lost in translation in his book, just that that is something to consider in your further study of his book. If you read German, I've read here that that version is the way to go.

    EternalStudent wrote:hank you all so far for helping me come to these conclusions so far. If is there is anything in the above that can be corrected, please let me know.

    The only other thing that interests me now is the principle of the 'hip spring'.
    Like I've said in my reply to jkw I've heard and read so many different takes on this. The explanations vary from the springing motion should be in the supporting leg, in the hip, in the core, in the 'sweeping' leg, or in a combination of the aforementioned.

    Any insights on what would be the correct technique?

    I don't think there is any "sweeping leg" in Hane Goshi, so you can cross that one off of your list...it's not an ashi waza.



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