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    Basic or classic uchi mata?

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    EternalStudent

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    Location : The Netherlands

    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by EternalStudent on Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:57 pm

    Thank you Ben.

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    I know a few people here have trained with Mr. Inoue. Perhaps he addressed some of these issues.
    That would be wonderful indeed.

    EternalStudent wrote:
    And I didn't say that things got lost in translation in his book, just that that is something to consider in your further study of his book. If you read German, I've read here that that version is the way to go.
    Correct. It's not just based on your input in this topic. Ive consulted multiple resources (papers, people) on this matter and this is my own conclusion at the moment.

    EternalStudent wrote:hank you all so far for helping me come to these conclusions so far. If is there is anything in the above that can be corrected, please let me know.
    The only other thing that interests me now is the principle of the 'hip spring'.
    Like I've said in my reply to jkw I've heard and read so many different takes on this. The explanations vary from the springing motion should be in the supporting leg, in the hip, in the core, in the 'sweeping' leg, or in a combination of the aforementioned.
    Any insights on what would be the correct technique?

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    I don't think there is any "sweeping leg" in Hane Goshi, so you can cross that one off of your list...it's not an ashi waza.
    Hehe, I know Ben, I know. I even quoted the word 'sweeping', indicating it is an actual quote I read. That explanation said the spring was in the leg you lift during hane goshi. Supposedly you make it 'spring' by extending that leg. And altough I know thats totally false and there is no 'sweeping' leg, I just named it as an example to show how many (false) explanations are out there, and perhaps to stir up some commotion, which can also be a source of information on the subject at hand Wink


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    jkw

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by jkw on Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:28 am

    EternalStudent wrote:
    That explanation said the spring was in the leg you lift during hane goshi. Supposedly you make it 'spring' by extending that leg.

    Here is a good example of hane-goshi. You can see the 'springing' movement and it's relation to hip/core very clearly in the first five seconds.


    Kaji

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    Join date : 2014-03-10
    Location : Perth, Western Australia

    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Kaji on Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:52 pm

    Uchimata is one of those core throws in Judo the mechanics of which I cannot figure out.

    Every time I think of this throw I would recall the advice from two of our sensei here, which I paraphrase below:

    1. Regarding (assuming a right-sided uchimata) where does tori's leg sweep, the inner thigh of uke's right leg? Or the left?

    Hanon-sensei's answer: Neither! The leg should go right up the middle. Uchimata is not some "inside" version of harai-goshi.

    2. CK-sensei's input: Tori's leg when performing uchimata does a figure-8 motion. This is something not known even by some uchimata specialists.

    Hope I've contributed to the discussion.

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:56 am

    Kaji wrote:Uchimata is one of those core throws in Judo the mechanics of which I cannot figure out.

    Every time I think of this throw I would recall the advice from two of our sensei here, which I paraphrase below:

    1. Regarding (assuming a right-sided uchimata) where does tori's leg sweep, the inner thigh of uke's right leg? Or the left?

    Hanon-sensei's answer: Neither! The leg should go right up the middle. Uchimata is not some "inside" version of harai-goshi.

    2. CK-sensei's input: Tori's leg when performing uchimata does a figure-8 motion. This is something not known even by some uchimata specialists.

    Hope I've contributed to the discussion.

    You mean you can't "figure out the core mechanics" or you can't do the throw ? Because you can be taught the throw and not exactly understand the mechanics of it.

    Of course, it depends on why you mean by "understand the mechanics" of the throw too.

    No, Uchi Mata is an inside forward or sideways version of Osoto Gari.

    Sort of...


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    Kaji

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Kaji on Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:56 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:You mean you can't "figure out the core mechanics" or you can't do the throw ? Because you can be taught the throw and not exactly understand the mechanics of it.

    Of course, it depends on why you mean by "understand the mechanics" of the throw too.

    No, Uchi Mata is an inside forward or sideways version of Osoto Gari.

    Sort of...
    I can do the Nage-no-kata version of uchi-mata, but that's pretty much it. I think part of the reason I'm not good with the throw is that I don't fully understand mechanics.

    I know there are people who can execute a technique effectively without understanding the principles behind it. Not me.

    I'm curious - what do you mean by "inside forward or sideways version of Osoto Gari"? Where is the gari action in uchi-mata?

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:39 am

    Kaji wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:You mean you can't "figure out the core mechanics" or you can't do the throw ? Because you can be taught the throw and not exactly understand the mechanics of it.

    Of course, it depends on why you mean by "understand the mechanics" of the throw too.

    No, Uchi Mata is an inside forward or sideways version of Osoto Gari.

    Sort of...
    I can do the Nage-no-kata version of uchi-mata, but that's pretty much it. I think part of the reason I'm not good with the throw is that I don't fully understand mechanics.

    I know there are people who can execute a technique effectively without understanding the principles behind it. Not me.

    I'm curious - what do you mean by "inside forward or sideways version of Osoto Gari"? Where is the gari action in uchi-mata?

    If you can do the nage no kata version OK (without uke jumping, of course), then I'd think you could manage a "normal" Uchi Mata.

    As a thought exercise, imagine that the idea of gari/kari as a principle doesn't exist. We recently had some papers posted here that introduce and explain a bio-mechanical classification of Judo throws into two groups, force couple and lever type throws. Osoto Gari and Uchi Mata are both force couple type throws.



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    Kaji

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Kaji on Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:49 am

    Yes, I do think I can manage a normal uchi-mata but not as good as I'd like to be, especially in randori.

    Would you please share with me a link to that paper? Thanks.

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:34 am

    Kaji wrote:Yes, I do think I can manage a normal uchi-mata but not as good as I'd like to be, especially in randori.

    Would you please share with me a link to that paper? Thanks.

    http://judo.forumsmotion.com/t2165-judo-biomechanics-works


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    Kaji

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Kaji on Sat Nov 22, 2014 5:38 pm

    Thank you, sir!

    noboru

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    slicing-traditional-throw-in-half

    Post by noboru on Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:07 am

    Interesting article, good points:
    http://thedifficultway.blogspot.cz/2011/01/slicing-traditional-throw-in-half.html

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Basic or classic uchi mata?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:02 am

    noboru wrote:Interesting article, good points:
    http://thedifficultway.blogspot.cz/2011/01/slicing-traditional-throw-in-half.html

    Judoka_UK used to post here quite a bit. His blog is a great resource.


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