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    Should I Switch to Judo?

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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:50 am

    lzybmbjj30 wrote:I'm a currently a brown belt in BJJ and wanted to hear different point of views on this matter.  I've been training in BJJ for over 10 years and know that I want to at least get my black belt in BJJ before switching to judo.  My question is for those on here that maybe have switched to different styles or stayed in the same one for the whole time, if you could go back would you have stayed in the same art until 8th or 9th dan or would you have switched to get a broader spectrum of skills in grappling?

    A bit further down you advise you can't train both at this time. I'd suggest you get your black belt in BJJ then cross train in Judo. You ground work (other than learning Japanese names for things and forcing yourself to hold a pin, LOL) will be light years ahead of most judoka,so most of your effort in judo class would be on learning to throw.

    Your time investment in BJJ is considerable, so earn the black belt in that first.


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    Gus

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by Gus on Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:10 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    lzybmbjj30 wrote:I'm a currently a brown belt in BJJ and wanted to hear different point of views on this matter.  I've been training in BJJ for over 10 years and know that I want to at least get my black belt in BJJ before switching to judo.  My question is for those on here that maybe have switched to different styles or stayed in the same one for the whole time, if you could go back would you have stayed in the same art until 8th or 9th dan or would you have switched to get a broader spectrum of skills in grappling?

    A bit further down you advise you can't train both at this time. I'd suggest you get your black belt in BJJ then cross train in Judo. You ground work (other than learning Japanese names for things and forcing yourself to hold a pin, LOL)  will be light years ahead of most judoka,so most of your effort in judo class would be on learning to throw.

    Your time investment in BJJ is considerable, so earn the black belt in that first.

    Thats what I think - if the blackbelt is something you want - to get so close and then drop it for another art might be something you'd regret.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:13 am

    Wandering WB wrote:You don't have to be a jack of all trades. I know ten years is a long time, but if you spend ten years on judo and bjj you can be a master of both. That's what makes a master - ten years of hard work, isn't it?

    LOL, still trying I see...


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    Wandering WB

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by Wandering WB on Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:55 am

    "Thats what I think - if the blackbelt is something you want - to get so close and then drop it for another art might be something you'd regret."
    He can probably finish his black belt level studies while in judo. It does have enough groundwork for that. So long as he uses the Internet.

    Hey Ben. Just so you know, a black belt in BJJ officially has a Master's title.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:37 am

    Wandering WB wrote:"Thats what I think - if the blackbelt is something you want - to get so close and then drop it for another art might be something you'd regret."
    He can probably finish his black belt level studies while in judo. It does have enough groundwork for that. So long as he uses the Internet.

    Hey Ben. Just so you know, a black belt in BJJ officially has a Master's title.

    Not sure what you are getting at...I didn't address the term "Master" in my post.

    We know a shodan in Judo isn't considered a master of anything.

    Oh, I see what you were referring too...10 years in Judo and black belt (even up to sandan or yondan) doesn't mean master (in Judo).

    Different arts, different standards.


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    JudoSensei

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by JudoSensei on Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:42 am

    everyone should switch to judo

    Wandering WB

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by Wandering WB on Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:46 am


    Not sure what you are getting at...I didn't address the term "Master" in my post.

    We know a shodan in Judo isn't considered a master of anything.

    Oh, I see what you were referring too...10 years in Judo and black belt (even up to sandan or yondan) doesn't mean master (in Judo).

    Different arts, different standards.
    Of course it does. Master isn't someone who is the best in the world, it's someone who is qualified to represent the art.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:57 am

    Wandering WB wrote:

    Not sure what you are getting at...I didn't address the term "Master" in my post.

    We know a shodan in Judo isn't considered a master of anything.

    Oh, I see what you were referring too...10 years in Judo and black belt (even up to sandan or yondan) doesn't mean master (in Judo).

    Different arts, different standards.
    Of course it does. Master isn't someone who is the best in the world, it's someone who is qualified to represent the art.

    I agree that master does not mean "best in the world" (and I didn't say that, you did). I disagree in general with the term "master" used in Judo, and it's pretty uncommon in my experience. It's more something "lay people" say about martial artists.



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    Wandering WB

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by Wandering WB on Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:42 am

    Ben Reinheardt

    I agree that master does not mean "best in the world" (and I didn't say that, you did). I disagree in general with the term "master" used in Judo, and it's pretty uncommon in my experience. It's more something "lay people" say about martial artists.
    As you know, the address Mister or Meister is a modified Master. It's normal to adress adult men that way. So someone who is an adult man is automatically addressed as Master. My concern is that someone who has done judo for ten years should be able to say with pride that they have accomplished something/know judo, i.e. they are a Master of it when asked by lay people without instantly being shot down by sour-minded critics. Universities give degrees in shorter time frames. Of course even if you are a sandan, you may still get your ass hand to you by a godan or that competition savvy nidan, but that doesn't mean you are any less competent than a Master of judo.
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    Neil G

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by Neil G on Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:20 am

    "Master" as commonly used by non martial-artists means someone who has superior knowledge in a field, an instructor of instructors. "Master" is not a term used in Japanese martial arts typically. But when I hear that term, I think of a guy who is near the top of the food chain.

    Your normal 10 year guy, shodan or nidan typically, would be a journeyman by most standards, a junior instructor at best.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:03 am

    Wandering WB wrote:Ben Reinheardt

    I agree that master does not mean "best in the world" (and I didn't say that, you did). I disagree in general with the term "master" used in Judo, and it's pretty uncommon in my experience. It's more something "lay people" say about martial artists.
    As you know, the address Mister or Meister is a modified Master. It's normal to adress adult men that way. So someone who is an adult man is automatically addressed as Master. My concern is that someone who has done judo for ten years should be able to say with pride that they have accomplished something/know judo, i.e. they are a Master of it when asked by lay people without instantly being shot down by sour-minded critics. Universities give degrees in shorter time frames. Of course even if you are a sandan, you may still get your ass hand to you by a godan or that competition savvy nidan, but that doesn't mean you are any less competent than a Master of judo.

    You are really all over the place in your discussion, WB.

    Doing Judo for 10 years in a serious matter is a lot more humbling than it is prideful, in my experience at least.

    Your focus on rank as a mark of skill is understandable, though. That is a general "lay-person" point of view, and not without reason. However, within an martial art, those who are honest and realistic might have a different point of view.


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    Gus

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by Gus on Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:17 am

    Wandering WB wrote:"Thats what I think - if the blackbelt is something you want - to get so close and then drop it for another art might be something you'd regret."
    He can probably finish his black belt level studies while in judo. It does have enough groundwork for that. So long as he uses the Internet.

    I dont think so WB - a blackbelt in BJJ is much harder to get than in Judo (at least in the UK and Ireland). A lot of clubs dont even have a blackbelt as a teacher. Ps most judoka I know say that getting the blackbelt is the begining of their real learning - I dont necessarily agree with that - but definately not a master !

    Wandering WB

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by Wandering WB on Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:08 pm


    I dont think so WB - a blackbelt in BJJ is much harder to get than in Judo (at least in the UK and Ireland). A lot of clubs dont even have a blackbelt as a teacher. Ps most judoka I know say that getting the blackbelt is the begining of their real learning - I dont necessarily agree with that - but definately not a master !
    I know all about how difficult a black belt is to get. I've done bjj for 7 years and still proudly hold a white belt in it. Now, I kinda feel like my white belt isn't fooling anyone anymore and I need to get a black one, but whatever, for now that's how it is. However, today in judo class I saw two techniques that I have never seen in bjj class. Time doing judo newaza won't be wasted even if you are a bjj brown belt. Notice that I didn't place Master level at shodan; I said ten years and sandan.
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    NavyRN

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by NavyRN on Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:50 pm

    I train both and love them both. You should definitely cross train.


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    Gus

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by Gus on Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:30 am

    Wandering WB wrote:

    I dont think so WB - a blackbelt in BJJ is much harder to get than in Judo (at least in the UK and Ireland). A lot of clubs dont even have a blackbelt as a teacher. Ps most judoka I know say that getting the blackbelt is the begining of their real learning - I dont necessarily agree with that - but definately not a master !
    I know all about how difficult a black belt is to get. I've done bjj for 7 years and still proudly hold a white belt in it. Now, I kinda feel like my white belt isn't fooling anyone anymore and I need to get a black one, but whatever, for now that's how it is. However, today in judo class I saw two techniques that I have never seen in bjj class. Time doing judo newaza won't be wasted even if you are a bjj brown belt. Notice that I didn't place Master level at shodan; I said ten years and sandan.

    One of my favourite Judo partners was from Mongolia - he disdained the whole grading system -  I think he had done Mongolian wrestling because his standing was much better than his ground work - he could throw everyone in the club though - lethally fast fluid seo nages and cunning grips. As far as I know he's still a white belt.

    Wandering WB

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by Wandering WB on Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:01 am

    he disdained the whole grading system
    That sounds like me then:)

    Yeah, I just wanted to add that it doesn't make sense to make someone Master only when they are past their prime and no longer compete.

    Gus

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by Gus on Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:29 am

    Wandering WB wrote:
    he disdained the whole grading system
    That sounds like me then:)

    Yeah, I just wanted to add that it doesn't make sense to make someone Master only when they are past their prime and no longer compete.

    People go on learning about Judo long after they are past their prime . I have heard top international Judoka complain they only really understood Judo properly when they were too slow to apply what they'd learned ! but - they can teach others and someone whos done Judo 40 years will know a lot more Judo than someones whos being doing it ten years (assuming they train the same amount of times a week) . My first Judo teacher was in his late sixties when he taught me - but the principles he held in his head created champions and changed lives -I dont think  he could have done that when he was in his twenties. Even though he was an 8th Dan Kodokan Im pretty sure if you called him a master it would have earnt you a slap - top Judoka are often quite humble.

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by Wandering WB on Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:47 am


    People go on learning about Judo long after they are past their prime . I have heard top international Judoka complain they only really understood Judo properly when they were too slow to apply what they'd learned ! but - they can teach others and someone whos done Judo 40 years will know a lot more Judo than someones whos being doing it ten years (assuming they train the same amount of times a week) . My first Judo teacher was in his late sixties when he taught me - but the principles he held in his head created champions and changed lives -I dont think he could have done that when he was in his twenties. Even though he was an 8th Dan Kodokan Im pretty sure if you called him a master it would have earnt you a slap - top Judoka are often quite humble.
    So according to you, teaching is the more important than the ability to compete and judo is an art that is best represented by a bunch of senile old men? BS. Just because you are a Master doesn't mean you stop learning, but you've got to give the title early enough that the person can do something with it, i.e. compete.

    Gus

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by Gus on Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:13 am

    Wandering WB wrote:

    People go on learning about Judo long after they are past their prime . I have heard top international Judoka complain they only really understood Judo properly when they were too slow to apply what they'd learned ! but - they can teach others and someone whos done Judo 40 years will know a lot more Judo than someones whos being doing it ten years (assuming they train the same amount of times a week) . My first Judo teacher was in his late sixties when he taught me - but the principles he held in his head created champions and changed lives -I dont think  he could have done that when he was in his twenties. Even though he was an 8th Dan Kodokan Im pretty sure if you called him a master it would have earnt you a slap - top Judoka are often quite humble.
    So according to you, teaching is the more important than the ability to compete and judo is an art that is best represented by a bunch of senile old men? BS. Just because you are a Master doesn't mean you stop learning, but you've got to give the title early enough that the person can do something with it, i.e. compete.

    Well from my point of view theres a lot more to Judo than competition WB !  Lets put it another way - you may be an old man, who can barely move - but you know how to build a world class aircraft and you can give clear instruction on how to do this. A younger man is physically capable of building an inferior aircraft - and if they were both given a year the young man would obviously win a competition to build an aircraft - yet the old man is obviously more of a "master". Bit of a weird example but you get my drift.  Dont get me wrong I love competing - I just think there's a bit more to it than that.

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by Wandering WB on Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:41 am


    Well from my point of view theres a lot more to Judo than competition WB ! Lets put it another way - you may be an old man, who can barely move - but you know how to build a world class aircraft and you can give clear instruction on how to do this. A younger man is physically capable of building an inferior aircraft - and if they were both given a year the young man would obviously win a competition to build an aircraft - yet the old man is obviously more of a "master". Bit of a weird example but you get my drift. Dont get me wrong I love competing - I just think there's a bit more to it than that.
    Like it or not, judo is a competitive sport. Just because you find a match with another judo Master challenging doesn't mean you are not a Master of judo. I am not saying someone who has done judo for thirty years doesn't know what he is doing on the mat. I am saying that judo is best represented by young competitive athletes rather than old men who can barely walk unassisted! It's not about building aircraft, it's about putting theories into practice with resistance and someone who is senile and in bad health likely can't do it. Judo is physical, not just theoretical. Judo is an engagement between two adversaries or partners, and they are both judged by how good they are at getting that desired ippon. Your fascination with old men is leading you to a logical error.
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    Neil G

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by Neil G on Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:52 am

    Can you really be this dense? Just because someone no longer has the strength or speed to hang with younger competitors does not mean they have inferior judo. You can watch a 250 lb whitebelt ragdoll a 100 lb Olympian woman all night long, does that make the woman's judo inferior?

    For that matter, just because one's competition career is over doesn't mean they stop learning and improving. Your body can only take the strain of high level competition and physical training for so long. But you can continue to get better at judo.

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by Wandering WB on Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:43 am

    Can you really be this dense? Just because someone no longer has the strength or speed to hang with younger competitors does not mean they have inferior judo. You can watch a 250 lb whitebelt ragdoll a 100 lb Olympian woman all night long, does that make the woman's judo inferior?

    For that matter, just because one's competition career is over doesn't mean they stop learning and improving. Your body can only take the strain of high level competition and physical training for so long. But you can continue to get better at judo.
    No. Judo is a practical art, not a theoretical one. If you can't do a move anymore because you are too weak, than your judo has gotten worse. I know that dans are awarded for theoretical knowledge too, but teaching isn't what judo is about. Not anymore than boxing is about teaching how to box. It's about competition.
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    Neil G

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by Neil G on Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:18 am

    Wandering WB wrote:
    Can you really be this dense? Just because someone no longer has the strength or speed to hang with younger competitors does not mean they have inferior judo. You can watch a 250 lb whitebelt ragdoll a 100 lb Olympian woman all night long, does that make the woman's judo inferior?

    For that matter, just because one's competition career is over doesn't mean they stop learning and improving. Your body can only take the strain of high level competition and physical training for so long. But you can continue to get better at judo.
    No. Judo is a practical art, not a theoretical one. If you can't do a move anymore because you are too weak, than your judo has gotten worse. I know that dans are awarded for theoretical knowledge too, but teaching isn't what judo is about. Not anymore than boxing is about teaching how to box. It's about competition.
    You should find a different hobby. Clearly you have no idea what judo is all about.

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by jkw on Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:23 am

    Neil G wrote:You should find a different hobby.  Clearly you have no idea what judo is all about.

    I think this kind of comment is a bit unhelpful. If someone in our dojo spoke to another member like this I would be disappointed.

    Please bear in mind that you don't know anything about the person you are responding to - their age, life experience, psychological background - nothing. Yet in a real life conversation you would likely temper your response in light of those factors.

    Given that you can't know someone's background, it is prudent to assume the worse (not that I'm arguing the case for Wandering WB - I'm simply making a point that from the point of view of the forum that person might have all kinds of learning, psychological and character difficulties that posters are unaware of and could - inadvertently - cause them harm).

    If you disagree with a poster either debate or ignore.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Should I Switch to Judo?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:05 am


    Well from my point of view theres a lot more to Judo than competition WB !  Lets put it another way - you may be an old man, who can barely move - but you know how to build a world class aircraft and you can give clear instruction on how to do this. A younger man is physically capable of building an inferior aircraft - and if they were both given a year the young man would obviously win a competition to build an aircraft - yet the old man is obviously more of a "master". Bit of a weird example but you get my drift.  Dont get me wrong I love competing - I just think there's a bit more to it than that.

    [quote="Wandering WB"]
    Like it or not, judo is a competitive sport. Just because you find a match with another judo Master challenging doesn't mean you are not a Master of judo.

    Your fascination with old men Something is leading you to a logical error, WB.

    [quote="Wandering WB"]I am not saying someone who has done judo for thirty years doesn't know what he is doing on the mat. I am saying that judo is best represented by young competitive athletes rather than old men who can barely walk unassisted! It's not about building aircraft, it's about putting theories into practice with resistance and someone who is senile and in bad health likely can't do it.

    Your fascination with old men Something is leading you to a logical error, WB.


    Wandering WB wrote:Judo is physical, not just theoretical. Judo is an engagement between two adversaries or partners, and they are both judged by how good they are at getting that desired ippon. Your fascination with old men is leading you to a logical error.

    Your fascination with old men Something is leading you to a logical error, WB.

    Seriously, your trolling efforts are so amateurish it's getting silly. I realize we are on a Forum that is ripe for such stuff, but can't you do any better than the above ?

    You create strawmen with almost every sentence you write, at times.







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