E-Judo

Judo network and forum


    Happo no kuzushi

    Share
    avatar
    noboru

    Posts : 585
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Czech Republic

    Happo no kuzushi

    Post by noboru on Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:18 pm

    I found some very nice videos (for me) about kuzushi (breaking balance).

    From Neal Adams (World champion, medailist from Olympic Games)
    Kuzushi - Judo Excellence wth Neil Adams


    Here is very nice public demonstration of judo - very nice introduction of breaking balance.

    Happo No Kuzushi judo demonstration by The Budokwai
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeJkxgxtiAw


    And one nice schema:


    s from on prezentation of 柔道指導の手引き 文部科学省 http://lern-english-japanese.6te.net/SelfDefense/Judo/Judo_by_JMEXT/001/
    (A guide of the Judo guidance. by Japanese Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology (MEXT). )


    Last edited by noboru on Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    MikeBudo

    Posts : 1
    Join date : 2014-10-19
    Age : 59
    Location : Maidstone Kent UK

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by MikeBudo on Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:31 pm

    Greetings Bows,

    I like that. Thank you for sharing. Kazushi and Tai Sabaki very useful... In fact,essential Smile
    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1097
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by NBK on Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:57 pm

    Maybe it's just me but I'd have thought a 9 dan would at least try to introduce the correct terms. Tsurite, hikite, and happó no kuzushi. Ooki or not.

    Here's a verbal introduction:
    http://judoinfo.com/grips.htm

    Balance lines? In balance and out of balance don't work?

    NBK
    avatar
    Ryvai

    Posts : 159
    Join date : 2013-07-16
    Location : Norway

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by Ryvai on Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:15 am

    NBK wrote:Maybe it's just me but I'd have thought a 9 dan would at least try to introduce the correct terms.  Tsurite, hikite, and happó no kuzushi.    Ooki or not.

    Here's a verbal introduction:  
    http://judoinfo.com/grips.htm

    Balance lines?  In balance and out of balance don't work?  

    NBK

    Not to mention the classical uke vs. uki pronunciation Smile

    medo

    Posts : 276
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by medo on Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:49 am

    There is no mention of happo no kuzushi or tsurite hikite in the current BJA syllabus infact in the past forty odd years I cannot remember one use of the terms on any BJA mat I have been on. Happo ect are in common use in the BJC being in their syllabus so that might be the answer why a BJA 9th dan does not use these terms.
    avatar
    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 790
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:07 am

    I tried to use happo no kuzushi as a teaching tool/cues, and in the end rejected it. Not that it isn't valid concept, it's just TMI for students.

    In fact, teaching "kuzushi" as a discrete entity other than as a concept is pretty much of dead issue for me. Everybody worries about getting "enough" kuzushi like it's some sort of thing to do, then stop, then throw.

    Tai sabaki and proper body placement/use/timing "make" kuzushi...



    _________________
    Falling for Judo Since 1980
    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1097
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by NBK on Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:46 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:I tried to use happo no kuzushi as a teaching tool/cues, and in the end rejected it. Not that it isn't valid concept, it's just TMI for students.

    In fact, teaching "kuzushi" as a discrete entity other than as a concept is pretty much of dead issue for me. Everybody worries about getting "enough" kuzushi like it's some sort of thing to do, then stop, then throw.

    Tai sabaki and proper body placement/use/timing "make" kuzushi...

    So I can do all that without my hands? I never knew that...

    I mostly teach beginning adults, and most of them get the concepts and actions of kuzushi pretty quickly.
    avatar
    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 790
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:50 am

    NBK wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:I tried to use happo no kuzushi as a teaching tool/cues, and in the end rejected it. Not that it isn't valid concept, it's just TMI for students.

    In fact, teaching "kuzushi" as a discrete entity other than as a concept is pretty much of dead issue for me. Everybody worries about getting "enough" kuzushi like it's some sort of thing to do, then stop, then throw.

    Tai sabaki and proper body placement/use/timing "make" kuzushi...

    So I can do all that without my hands? I never knew that...

    I mostly teach beginning adults, and most of them get the concepts and actions of kuzushi pretty quickly.  

    With a good enough uke, anything is possible !

    Proper body placement includes use of upper body, however, I should have mentioned tsurikomi and hikite/tsurite as well as they were part of the original discussion.

    I would say I use the terms hikite and tsurite a lot more than kuzushi while teaching.

    The concepts are pretty simple, however, to clarify, what I've seen over the years is an overemphasis on the concept and not enough on practical application. Plus, the methods of practical application between practice versus application (randori/shiai, not just demonstration) seem out of sync at times. There is a lot of emphasis on "pulling" with the hikite and "lifting" with the tsurite.

    For example, and I'm not critiquing these guys, just using as example, because they do them so well.


    Particularly the uchikomi/tsurikomi for forward throws shown are good examples of what I'm writing about. How close to reality does that look, and by reality, I mean randori or shiai ? In this case, the uchikomi is sort of an "isolation" drill, and I get that, however, the isolation drill is harder at times to do well than the application...it is almost as if uchikomi/tsurikomi drill is a separate (but somewhat related) skill... the isolation drill often to me seems to ingrain bad habits ("winding up" in particular, which is a form of telegraphing).

    I still struggle with that, though, to this day for myself and my students,and am always looking for and open to new (or old) ways to do things.





    _________________
    Falling for Judo Since 1980

    tafftaz

    Posts : 330
    Join date : 2012-12-31
    Age : 52
    Location : Wales, UK

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by tafftaz on Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:06 am

    Ryvai wrote:
    NBK wrote:Maybe it's just me but I'd have thought a 9 dan would at least try to introduce the correct terms.  Tsurite, hikite, and happó no kuzushi.    Ooki or not.

    Here's a verbal introduction:  
    http://judoinfo.com/grips.htm

    Balance lines?  In balance and out of balance don't work?  

    NBK

    Not to mention the classical uke vs. uki pronunciation Smile


    Did you think that it could be his accent?? Or just criticizing for the sake of it?
    I use the terms but not all the time. Depends on who it is I am showing technique too.
    As long as the main principles are shown and are put across in a legible manner then what is the problem?
    Let me know when you guys get to 9th dan and achiever what Adams sensei has achieved then come back and critique him.


    avatar
    BillC

    Posts : 806
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Vista, California

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by BillC on Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:20 pm

    tafftaz wrote:
    Did you think that it could be his accent?? Or just criticizing for the sake of it?
    I use the terms but not all the time. Depends on who it is I am showing technique too.
    As long as the main principles are shown and are put across in a legible manner then what is the problem?
    Let me know when you guys get to 9th dan and achiever what Adams sensei has achieved then come back and critique him.

    Yeah ... take that Ryvai!

    Over here we have a 9th dan and president of one of our national organizations who favors pronunciation of a certain throw as "osoto geri" ... which always makes Hanon snicker.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling
    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1097
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by NBK on Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:52 am

    tafftaz wrote:
    Ryvai wrote:
    NBK wrote:Maybe it's just me but I'd have thought a 9 dan would at least try to introduce the correct terms.  Tsurite, hikite, and happó no kuzushi.    Ooki or not.

    Here's a verbal introduction:  
    http://judoinfo.com/grips.htm

    Balance lines?  In balance and out of balance don't work?  

    NBK

    Not to mention the classical uke vs. uki pronunciation Smile

    Did you think that it could be his accent?? Or just criticizing for the sake of it?
    I use the terms but not all the time. Depends on who it is I am showing technique too.
    As long as the main principles are shown and are put across in a legible manner then what is the problem?
    Let me know when you guys get to 9th dan and achiever what Adams sensei has achieved then come back and critique him.

    No, it's not an accent, it's a mispronunciation, albeit a common one. That's not the point; to me its just sad and surprising to note certain omissions precisely because he is a 9 dan.

    In my experience, judo is not hard over on making people learn a lot of terminology in general (Taekwondo was in my past experience), but its terminology is the common language of judo worldwide. What would it be like if everyone used their own local language?

    Does the BJA test judo vocabulary?

    NBK

    avatar
    Jihef

    Posts : 167
    Join date : 2013-09-06
    Location : Brussels, Belgium

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by Jihef on Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:24 am

    NBK wrote:No, it's not an accent, it's a mispronunciation, albeit a common one.  
    That's not the point; to me its just sad and surprising to note certain omissions precisely because he is a 9 dan.  
    And, since he commented many, many tournaments on TV (now online), his trademark mispronunciations are being repeated by others.

    Maybe, because he was such an impressive judoka, no one DARED to correct him ??

    Seriously Tafftaz, what could be wrong with trying to do it right ?
    Maybe he has no japanese friends… Sad


    _________________
    judoratt wrote: "You need a quality instructor to learn this. No one should try to learn judo from the internet."
     study
    avatar
    Jonesy

    Posts : 1006
    Join date : 2013-01-02

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by Jonesy on Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:37 am

    In general UK and US pronounciation of Japanese words is heinous. Seoi-nage and uke are butchered on a daily basis for example.

    NB - Neil Adams is a 8 Dan.


    _________________
    ジョーンズ
    avatar
    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 790
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:29 am

    BillC wrote:
    tafftaz wrote:
    Did you think that it could be his accent?? Or just criticizing for the sake of it?
    I use the terms but not all the time. Depends on who it is I am showing technique too.
    As long as the main principles are shown and are put across in a legible manner then what is the problem?
    Let me know when you guys get to 9th dan and achiever what Adams sensei has achieved then come back and critique him.

    Yeah ... take that Ryvai!

    Over here we have a 9th dan and president of one of our national organizations who favors pronunciation of a certain throw as "osoto geri" ... which always makes Hanon snicker.

    I had to listen to "keesa Gatamee" quite recently, over and over again...during a katame no kata clinic/training session.



    _________________
    Falling for Judo Since 1980

    tafftaz

    Posts : 330
    Join date : 2012-12-31
    Age : 52
    Location : Wales, UK

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by tafftaz on Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:15 am

    Jihef , NBK I could take you all around the UK and you would hear judo terminology pronounced so differently in so many different areas it would make your head spin. Mostly due to the vastly different accents around our small island.
    avatar
    BillC

    Posts : 806
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Vista, California

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by BillC on Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:51 am

    tafftaz wrote:Jihef , NBK I could take you all around the UK and you would hear judo terminology pronounced so differently in so many different areas it would make your head spin. Mostly due to the vastly different accents around our small island.

    Yeah, and they can't speak English either ... Rolling Eyes


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling
    avatar
    Jihef

    Posts : 167
    Join date : 2013-09-06
    Location : Brussels, Belgium

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by Jihef on Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:13 pm

    tafftaz wrote:Jihef , NBK I could take you all around the UK and you would hear judo terminology pronounced so differently in so many different areas it would make your head spin. Mostly due to the vastly different accents around our small island.
    For what I remember of the scottish accent, you may have a point. Very Happy


    _________________
    judoratt wrote: "You need a quality instructor to learn this. No one should try to learn judo from the internet."
     study

    tafftaz

    Posts : 330
    Join date : 2012-12-31
    Age : 52
    Location : Wales, UK

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by tafftaz on Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:19 am

    You would be surprised at how broad the differences in dialect are in England alone. Even in my home country of Wales the difference in accents from someplace as close as 10 miles from where I live is very noticeable.
    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1097
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by NBK on Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:14 am

    tafftaz wrote:You would be surprised at how broad the differences in dialect are in England alone. Even in my home country of Wales the difference in accents from someplace as close as 10 miles from where I live is very noticeable.
    I understand, just a bit.

    Next time you see the Quin, please extend my regards. What a Face

    tafftaz

    Posts : 330
    Join date : 2012-12-31
    Age : 52
    Location : Wales, UK

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by tafftaz on Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:20 am

    NBK wrote:
    tafftaz wrote:You would be surprised at how broad the differences in dialect are in England alone. Even in my home country of Wales the difference in accents from someplace as close as 10 miles from where I live is very noticeable.
    I understand, just a bit.  

    Next time you see the Quin, please extend my regards.   What a Face

    Which one? Rolling Eyes
    avatar
    Reinberger

    Posts : 135
    Join date : 2013-12-02

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by Reinberger on Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:22 pm

    BillC wrote:... Over here we have a 9th dan and president of one of our national organizations who favors pronunciation of a certain throw as "osoto geri" ... which always makes Hanon snicker.

    Shocked What could be Hanon's problem with the "big outside kick"?  Smile

    BTW, that unconventional expression might even be a not so bad description of something that happens while executing that ashiwaza ... Wink.  Uenishi Sadakazu, for example, in his "The Textbook Of Ju-Jutsu As Practised In Japan" called his version "Kekaeshi, from Kaesu, to turn over, and Keru, to kick" in 1905.

    For a selfdefence-technique, when uke already has most of his weight on his leading leg due to his own action, and without gripping him, or only hold on to him very lightly after evading, checking and counter his atemi-attack, I sometimes use a variation, that indeed looks more like an ushirogeri, than like the usual hoisting motion.


    _________________
    Kind regards, Robert

    Richard Riehle

    Posts : 79
    Join date : 2013-06-22
    Location : California

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by Richard Riehle on Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:35 am

    tafftaz wrote:
    Ryvai wrote:
    NBK wrote:Maybe it's just me but I'd have thought a 9 dan would at least try to introduce the correct terms.  Tsurite, hikite, and happó no kuzushi.    Ooki or not.

    Here's a verbal introduction:  
    http://judoinfo.com/grips.htm

    Balance lines?  In balance and out of balance don't work?  

    NBK

    Not to mention the classical uke vs. uki pronunciation Smile


    Did you think that it could be his accent?? Or just criticizing for the sake of it?
    I use the terms but not all the time. Depends on who it is I am showing technique too.
    As long as the main principles are shown and are put across in a legible manner then what is the problem?
    Let me know when you guys get to 9th dan and achiever what Adams sensei has achieved then come back and critique him.


    Kuzushi, when one studies it in-depth, seems to be far more complex than the simple demonstration of happo-no-kuzushi often presented in textbooks. Moreover, many of the video examples show it at its most elementary form of pushing or pulling in one of eight directions.

    Those in this forum who have been involved in Judo for so many years realize that how one sets-up the kuzushi is as important as how the final kuzushi used to execute any technique. By setting-up the kuzushi, I am referring to the combination of actions that begin with the debana (moment of opportunity), or even the more sophisticated "sen" concepts (sen no sen, etc), that many high-dan holders I have met in Japan seem to prefer to the simple idea of debana.

    However, neither sen nor debana by themselves is rarely sufficient in an actual contest; appropriate use of the hands is also essential. In this case, I am not referring to grip-fighting. Rather, I find that for me, a person of modest athletic skills, must be a bit more clever than someone endowed with muscle-power and alacrity of movement. Even when someone creates a vulnerability for themselves, I am not always able to avail myself of that opportunity and set-up the instantaneous kuzushi with sufficient speed to carry out a direct attack. Rather, I must execute several off-balancing actions by taking advantage of the first opportunity.

    Let's say I see an opportunity for o-uchi-gari, one of my favorite techniques. In all probability, my opponent is also aware of his/her own vulnerability at that same instant. Instead of exaggerating the vulnerability and attacking directly, I am more likely to use that moment to off-balance my opponent, force him to adjust his balance, and then use that moment of adjustment (which I usually have predicted in my own mind) to force an additional adjustment, keeping him in the process of readjusting until I see a level of instability (an off-balance position) that allows me to magnify that instability (the final kuzushi before tsukuri) and complete some waza, not necessarily the original o-uchi-gari. It is a series of reversal and counter-reversal actions that evolve from an original destabilizing action.

    Perhaps if I were younger, stronger, and faster, I would still be able to simply perform the kuzushi and complete the throw. But as I get older, I need to work a little differently. Once my opponent is off-balance a little, I work on his balance to destabilize him to the point where I have full control.

    This kind of destabilizing process requires a lot of practice. It also requires a lot of different ways to use the hands for pushing and pulling. For example, I may notice uke moves in a particular way to the left where his foot always follows the same pattern of placement. In that case, I may pull my right hand sharply down and forward with my elbow toward my waist just as his foot is about to make contact with the tatami. If I do this well, he will be temporarily off-balance, not is a position for my intended nage-waza, but enough for him to try to regain balance. I will help him regain balance, but do so in a way that he is once again off-balance by helping a little too much. Once I have forced two or three readjustments, I may be able to continue the action with the appropriate tsukuri and move my elderly body into position for the final throw.

    Over time, I have learned that, for many people, when they are off-balance momentarily in one position, they will typically try to regain stability in a predictable way. As we study this topic -- how someone tries to regain stability after being unstable -- we see patterns of behavior emerge. Not everyone follows the same patterns, but enough do.

    One thing I have learned is that we cannot understand those patterns simply by engaging in randori with nage-komi. Therefore, I like a kind of randori I call kuzushi-randori. No one throws anyone else. The idea is to learn how to get someone off-balance and continually keep him off-balance. In this process, we begin to notice the patterns. It is also a really good kind of randori for people in their eighth decade -- people like me who are precariously close to their 80th birthday. We can still do randori, but without the risk of snapping a piece of plaque loose within an artery due to a bad fall. One tiny bit of loose plaque in the bloodstream can ruin one's day.

    Perhaps if I were still a young man, I could still do the simple things: break someone's balance with my muscle power, leap into position for good tsukuri, and execute the perfect harai-goshi -- all in the blink of an eye. I seem to be able to recall being able to do that when I was much younger. Now, now, and now, I must be a little more clever with how I manage my opponent's/partner's vulnerabilities and use a pattern of kuzushi actions to prepare him/her for the final kill. It takes a little longer, but it often works.

    avatar
    Udon

    Posts : 138
    Join date : 2012-12-31
    Location : Minnesota

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by Udon on Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:42 am

    Nice description of how we " more mature " judoka have to approach randori.
    Thank you.
    avatar
    noboru

    Posts : 585
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Czech Republic

    Hando no Kuzushi kanji

    Post by noboru on Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:42 am

    Richard, nice descripton. Thank you.

    I have next one point to discussion about Kuzushi...
    I have the Toshiro Daigo's book about judo throwing ( Toshiro Daigo Kodokan Judo Throwing Techniques ). I find a lot of answers to my questions from my own practice judo there. When I read it at the first I was just the little bit suprised with more examples how break balance of opponnent in each described technique or their variants.

    There are described lot of cases (may be all cases), when the opponents balance is broken as his reaction to my first action before using Nage waza. More variants are related to more ways of reaction of uke for each nage waza technique. Ishikawa and Draeger senseis and other non japanese senseis use the term Hando no Kuzushi (reaction forms of Kuzushi). For example I think that Hando no Kuzushi situations are in Nage no kata ( in part for Tomoe nage or Uki waza) .

    Here is a small quote from  Ishikawa's, Draeger's: book:  Judo Training Methods: A Sourcebook from Ishikawa, Draeger
    The first of these is direct method in which the opponent is brought into unbalance by you the attacker applying a form of Happo no Kuzushi (eight forms of Kuzushi), imparting it by action of your body forces against his weak line of balance. The second case is termed Hando no Kuzushi (reaction forms of Kuzushi), and is an unbalance that the opponent imposes on himself by his body reactions to your diversionary attack. Study aech individual technie in an effort to determine the most efficient manner of obtaining the unbalance of the opponent. Make use of both types of Kuzushi, Happo no Kuzushi and Hando no Kuzushi at every training session, and your Judo technique will improve.

    Two terms and their kanji?
    Happo no Kuzushi, 八方の崩し
    Hando no Kuzushi, ??? の崩し  unknown characters for word Handō

    I did not heard /read about term Handō no Kuzushi from other japanese sources. In Daigo's english book is not the term Hando no kuzushi used.
    Please does anyone know japanese kanji for Hando no Kuzushi?
    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1097
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by NBK on Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:52 am

    反動の崩し

    反動 はんどう reaction; recoil; kick; backlash
    handō

    Sponsored content

    Re: Happo no kuzushi

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:13 am