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    Going back to the mat

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    Wandering WB

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    Going back to the mat

    Post by Wandering WB on Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:35 am

    It's been months since I've had a workout. So yesterday my Mom drove me to a local judo club. Overall the experience was a pleasant surprise.
    I've been upfront about the fact that I've done No Gi jiujitsu for seven years. The coach wasn't impressed. He was strict, not to say rude. Said they don't do that stuff in here; I told him that that's why I brought a Gi. Actually, the first time I came, on Saturday there were only kids there, so I had to come back again on Monday to practice with adults. He taught the little kids class. His one comment during adult class for me was to pull down with the hand when doing the foot sweep de ashi I think it was. Which he said was great.
    First of all, while my wind isn't back to where it used to be and I feel like can kinda get two-three-four-five steps faster with a bit of practice, despite being completely out of shape I didn't puke or feel sick after training. Second, it seems my stand up is moving along nicely. I was paired up with a greenbelt and I kinda let him lead the excercise while I played monkey see, monkey do. He was a polite kid, a few years younger and a good training partner for me. He tossed me with taiotoshi, which isn't a move I'd normally practice without a Gi. So I asked "you just did... this right?" and tossed him with taiotoshi. Some other new throws for me were variations of kosotogari and ouchigari where you remain standing. I always go to the ground when executing those No Gi. I was able to imitate them right away though. The greenbelt's comment was that my throws were perfect. Then there was another interesting move where you follow up the kouchi-gari with a roll across your partner's body length-wise. I suppose if you can't go for a kneebar with the legs, you might as well secure north-south.
    Something interesting I noticed was that during class not a single new technique was introduced. Instead the time was spent on drills and everyone seemed to know what to do. At one point the teacher pulled some beginners to a separate mat where they had a hands on discussion of belt testing curriculum. The sparring was alternating rounds and newaza and tachiwaza. The toughest guy in class was a white belt like me. When I asked him about his experience, he said he was a BJJ black belt who started judo before he began bjj, but just never graded. He actually managed to submit me twice with armbars in a short round. My own cross-collar choke attempt failed. Oh well, he was heavier and it's not like he tapped me out ten times, just two. I've also had a good spar with someone wearing a worn, almost white black belt. I couldn't submit him in newaza, and in tachiwaza he let me throw him once instead of going for it like he could have. Which brings me to the third point of why I was pleasantly surprised - nobody tried to rip off my head during these spars. Nobody was going for the kill during sparring. An elderly Asian gentleman with a black belt just countered my techniques when we randoried. Said it was an age thing. No one really gave it a hundred percent instead they all coasted at 80-90%. I admit, I don't think I would have been a good match for a judo black in stand up if one of them decided to go all out on me. And yet, although all the people I have gone against had black belts in some art, I did ok. The guy with a faded, almost white black belt actually let me throw him. He was supposed to grade soon.
    There was also a cute, short Russian girl with a brown belt. The coach was asking her whether she wanted kids she said no. Which led to a discussion of procreation being the goal of living. She said she would wrestle me on Friday. Looking forward to it.

    tafftaz

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    Re: Going back to the mat

    Post by tafftaz on Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:50 am

    Good to see you back WB.

    Wandering WB

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    Re: Going back to the mat

    Post by Wandering WB on Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:18 am

    Thanks, tafftaz. Just out of curiosity, I have a question. What do I need to know to keep up with a shodan in stand up? What about nidan? How long should it take someone like me to learn it? Can I do it in six months? Is there a book on judo I should read for technical instruction?

    medo

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    Re: Going back to the mat

    Post by medo on Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:45 pm

    Oh good god he's back..... look forward more insights to where everyone is going wrong.

    Wandering WB

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    Re: Going back to the mat

    Post by Wandering WB on Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:36 pm

    Hey medo, how have you been? Very Happy I couldn't help laughing at the way you greeted me after a long absence.

    medo

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    Re: Going back to the mat

    Post by medo on Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:19 am

    At least you are training Judo. Much better than playing with your brother in the park or telling us you can submit all guys who dare challange you.
    Good luck with the brown belt lady who knows go steady and learn, hey you might even get a date .....

    Wandering WB

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    Re: Going back to the mat

    Post by Wandering WB on Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:46 am

    "At least you are training Judo."
    I just don't know what I've been doing before that!

    medo, I hope this isn't sour grapes over that one time I said you didn't know what you were talking about when you claimed closed guard to be a bad position... and insulted me by calling me inexperienced. You need to lighten up more.

    medo

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    Re: Going back to the mat

    Post by medo on Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:04 am

    Hey thought you trained mma bjj no gi certainly can not remember you actualy training judo
    Closed guard as you put it in judo shia tends to be stalemate, as your now asking about grades you may find that one out, let me now when you achieve your dan grade or you achieve national squad level.

    tafftaz

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    Re: Going back to the mat

    Post by tafftaz on Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:35 am

    Hi WB. Sorry for late reply but running a business and 2 judo clubs does not give me much time for the internet.
    As to your questions, well a recreational shodan is a different beast to a shiai savvy shodan.
    Shiai shodan will have drilled about 4 techniques over and over in order to win. They will also have a more steely resolve when it comes to randori.
    A club shodan will treat randori as it should be treated, as a learning tool for themselves or their uke. A shiai shodan will treat other people as throwing practise and randori for them is a mini competition.
    As they progress in grade then they obviously become more battle hardened and harder to beat.
    If you are looking to practise at the same level as a club shodan then drill some techniques that you like and have an aptitude for. After about a year you should have a fairly solid repertoire, if you train 3 or more times a week.
    It also depends on where you train as some clubs train harder than others.
    I have been on the mat with some outstanding shodan and also with some appalling 5 dans.

    I apologise that I cannot give you a better answer but every judo club I have visited is different and I was also told years ago "that it is not the belt around the kit, but the person wearing it". This has proved to be true on many occasions.

    Good reference books would be
    Attacking judo
    best judo
    Canon of judo
    Kodokan judo

    plus any of the masterclass series.

    Hope this was helpful.

    medo

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    Re: Going back to the mat

    Post by medo on Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:29 am

    The more white belt wandering or wandering white belt posts the more I come to the conclusion that he is infact a senior posters altra ego.... Now who would come up with a cute Russian lady??
    Just to many incorrect replies and fantastic stories the aim I think is to boost postings when things are quiet. Just my two pennies worth!!!

    Wandering WB

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    Re: Going back to the mat

    Post by Wandering WB on Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:55 am

    medo's paranoia aside... thanks tafftaz, that was helpful. I have no intention or means of breaking into elite judo, but I was thinking that keeping up with nidans in a year or two would be nice. My learning rate should be quite different from someone's who is a complete beginner, so it's possible, I suppose. I will make sure to get one or two of the books you mentioned and begin training according to them.

    Wandering WB

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    Re: Going back to the mat

    Post by Wandering WB on Mon Oct 27, 2014 2:53 am

    Last class I realized just how hopelessly out of shape I am. I had to sit out because I got dizzy. I was thrown full force by a heavier blackbelt, who then transitioned into osaekomi. Not that we waited for twenty five seconds to find out if he could hang on to it, but it was pretty discouraging. My own attempt at a armbar from standing against him was properly defended and I didn't know how to enter for any of the turning in throws against his lapel grip. I couldn't strip it either, so I will have to revisit standing grip breaks, something I was never good at it in the first place. I tried attacking with an osoto-osoto-ouchi combination that I know, but I was too far away.
    There were no new throws shown, but I saw two new newaza techniques. The teacher asked if anyone knew the turning away escape from yoko shiho gatame. I raised my hands and proceeded to demonstrate an escape which started from clasped hands posture on the bottom to walking away to all fours. Turned out to judo people I showed an escape from modified yoko shiho gatame, since that's what I would have dealt with from bjj. When put in yoko shiho gatame where they grab between the legs, all I could think of was the reverse triangle. So I bridged and stiff armed the head into it. That's not what the teacher meant. He demonstrated a technique where you stiff arm the head and than apply a razor lock to the elbow and roll away, taking your partner over.
    Another interesting move he showed was what he called a bridge and roll from under mount. I don't know if that's what it's called in BJJ but that's not the point. From tate shiho gatame as he called it. The situation there was really far gone, to the point where the uke practically had a head and arm triangle choke with the hands. He showed how to get out of it by putting uke into a cradle from the bottom - bridge, one arm under the leg another arm over the shoulder and chain link. Then bridge and roll the uke into an underhook guardpass. Last step was secure the lapel so he couldn't roll away.
    What else interesting happened. I footswept a much heavier greenbelt, who seemed to be taking it easy, or at least wasn't spazzing. I also went one for one in standing randori with another greenbelt. Yes, by the way while I am on the subject of greenbelts, the one I was training with one my first day and said my throws were perfect during moving nagekomi practice had a black gi. He is seventeen and had been training judo for thirteen years. Kid years but still. Makes me wonder just how many people out there are under-ranked.
    In newaza I went with the same whitebelt twice. He was solid over two hundred pounds to my one fifty and although I told myself to take it easy, he made me expend energy. He grip fought, tried pushing my belt into my face from under mount and lifted me up while inside my guard. Somebody showed him the collar drag, and I was surprised when he got his hand into my collar and pulled me right onto his back. I choked him four times in two rounds. Still felt something was off, because three of my standing sweeps on him failed and I didn't want to just go for chokes, I wanted his arm, but he kept his elbows in tight and was just to strong. In retrospect I should have set it up with a cross collar choke to armbar two move combination, but I took an ezekiel instead.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Going back to the mat

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:48 am

    Wandering WB wrote:medo's paranoia aside... thanks tafftaz, that was helpful. I have no intention or means of breaking into elite judo, but I was thinking that keeping up with nidans in a year or two would be nice. My learning rate should be quite different from someone's who is a complete beginner, so it's possible, I suppose. I will make sure to get one or two of the books you mentioned and begin training according to them.

    As Tafftaz noted, judo ranks have a wide range of skill in randori. Competition oriented nidan who are young and in good shape you might never be able to hang with if they are being serious with you. Now, that depends of course on you personally, your aptitude, how much you train, how hard you train, and all that.

    The 45 year old nidan who helps teach the kids class who only trains for himself 2x a week you might well be able to "keep up with" in a year or two. That's a pretty obvious example, but I wanted top point out one type of judoka that closer to an extreme.

    Not all competitive oriented judoka who train a lot and hard are elite level, either. I never got to elite level, but I trained very, very hard for a long time, in fact, until injury basically kept me from doing so about 3 years ago. So you could probably "keep up" with me in randori, LOL. And I"m a sandan, so there, you've already met your goal and haven't' even broken a sweat.

    Seriously, books are good, but pay attention to your coach(es).

    You seem rather focused on belt color or rank in general as a measure of how well one does in randori or competition. To some degree, it is and/or can be a measure that sort of skill.



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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Going back to the mat

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:56 am

    Wandering WB wrote: Last class I realized just how hopelessly out of shape I am. I had to sit out because I got dizzy. I was thrown full force by a heavier blackbelt, who then transitioned into osaekomi. Not that we waited for twenty five seconds to find out if he could hang on to it, but it was pretty discouraging. My own attempt at a armbar from standing against him was properly defended and I didn't know how to enter for any of the turning in throws against his lapel grip. I couldn't strip it either, so I will have to revisit standing grip breaks, something I was never good at it in the first place. I tried attacking with an osoto-osoto-ouchi combination that I know, but I was too far away.
    There were no new throws shown, but I saw two new newaza techniques. The teacher asked if anyone knew the turning away escape from yoko shiho gatame. I raised my hands and proceeded to demonstrate an escape which started from clasped hands posture on the bottom to walking away to all fours. Turned out to judo people I showed an escape from modified yoko shiho gatame, since that's what I would have dealt with from bjj. When put in yoko shiho gatame where they grab between the legs, all I could think of was the reverse triangle. So I bridged and stiff armed the head into it. That's not what the teacher meant. He demonstrated a technique where you stiff arm the head and than apply a razor lock to the elbow and roll away, taking your partner over.
    Another interesting move he showed was what he called a bridge and roll from under mount. I don't know if that's what it's called in BJJ but that's not the point. From tate shiho gatame as he called it. The situation there was really far gone, to the point where the uke practically had a head and arm triangle choke with the hands. He showed how to get out of it by putting uke into a cradle from the bottom - bridge, one arm under the leg another arm over the shoulder and chain link. Then bridge and roll the uke into an underhook guardpass. Last step was secure the lapel so he couldn't roll away.
    What else interesting happened. I footswept a much heavier greenbelt, who seemed to be taking it easy, or at least wasn't spazzing. I also went one for one in standing randori with another greenbelt. Yes, by the way while I am on the subject of greenbelts, the one I was training with one my first day and said my throws were perfect during moving nagekomi practice had a black gi. He is seventeen and had been training judo for thirteen years. Kid years but still. Makes me wonder just how many people out there are under-ranked.
    In newaza I went with the same whitebelt twice. He was solid over two hundred pounds to my one fifty and although I told myself to take it easy, he made me expend energy. He grip fought, tried pushing my belt into my face from under mount and lifted me up while inside my guard. Somebody showed him the collar drag, and I was surprised when he got his hand into my collar and pulled me right onto his back. I choked him four times in two rounds. Still felt something was off, because three of my standing sweeps on him failed and I didn't want to just go for chokes, I wanted his arm, but he kept his elbows in tight and was just to strong. In retrospect I should have set it up with a cross collar choke to armbar two move combination, but I took an ezekiel instead.

    That was a nice honest post to read.

    I'd focus more on what your coach says about your Judo than what a green belts says, kid or not, 13 years in Judo or not.

    I doubt he's under-ranked. Kid Judo isn't the same as adult Judo. Not most places, anyway.

    Again, you might want to defocus on belt color versus experience. You'll drive yourself crazy. Of course, you are trying to judge your progress or relative skill level by comparing to others in your judo classes, I get that. Still, go with what the coach wants you to do, and try to get feedback from him/them.

    I get my sandan-33-years in Judo butt kicked by 16 year olds at training camps (doing randori). Some of them are green belts. Some are blue or brown belts. None of them think they should be sandan because they can throw, pin me, or submit me,or because I do so to them with great difficulty. Quite a few of them are young women...




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    seatea

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    Re: Going back to the mat

    Post by seatea on Tue Oct 28, 2014 12:27 pm

    Thought this thread might turn into a train wreck, but it's been a nice read.

    Wandering WB

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    Re: Going back to the mat

    Post by Wandering WB on Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

    Thank you guys for he comments.

    "I'd focus more on what your coach says about your Judo than what a green belts says, kid or not, 13 years in Judo or not."
    My coach has been tight-lipped so far. I think maybe he hasn't seen enough of my technique yet to make an assessment.


    I get my sandan-33-years in Judo butt kicked by 16 year olds at training camps (doing randori). Some of them are green belts. Some are blue or brown belts. None of them think they should be sandan because they can throw, pin me, or submit me,or because I do so to them with great difficulty. Quite a few of them are young women...
    Ben, at least you are getting out there, which considering your age, is no mean feat.

    Just came back from judo class, lying in my bed typing this up. Took a shower with soap first and had a bite to eat. I took up walking laps around the football field to bring myself back into shape. If I do it everyday, I should be able to run soon. During class, I did not get dizzy and did not have to get water so that's area of improvement number one. We learned posture breaking through applying forearm pressure on the stiff arm into ogoshi and then seoinage. I could not pull that off in randori however. So there's another difference from jiujitsu, where once I see a move taught I can usually pull it off on the same day. In fact, outside of nagekomi the only thing I can get reliably are foot sweeps, when I land a big throw it almost feels accidental. I look for footsweeps and see opportunities for them, where as with big throws the opportunity just seems to almost never be there. During randori, the black belt with whom I once did newaza continued to be so nice it made me feel silly. He didn't throw me once and let me toss him with kani-basami aka flying scissors. I hope it doesn't look like I am so weak I can't take a hard fall. I don't know why he is taking it that easy on me or whether, perhaps it just seems to me like he is. I also randoried standing with two greenbelts, one of whom was the teenager with 13 years of judo. He pushed me around more than the black belt did, despite having a messed up knee, which he thinks will heal by morning. I wanted to see if he could throw me easily because of whatever mistakes I was making, so I was defensive, trying to stay relaxed and just treat it as practice. Turned out he had to work for it. Now when I went with a short, chubby greenbelt in newaza, I felt some of my skills coming back to me. I let him start from mount, back control and knee on stomach two times each and submitted him six times in a short round. Previously I noted that I have difficulty setting up armbars, but this time it was all jujigatame. Six jujigatame in about three minutes starting from inferior positions completely sank in. I showed him how to hold knee on belly correctly - pulling up on the arm and the material at the knee, instead of putting your arm in the collar or on the belt. I even managed to uncross his feet when he was on my back without resorting to leg locks which are illegal in judo. I hope that doesn't look like me beating up on a beginner. Advanced people should practice more cooperatively with beginners instead of just smashing them full force, so here is a practical exercise in cooperation - give up top position, let the guy sink it in, and then do your best to escape and submit.
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    Jihef

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    Re: Going back to the mat

    Post by Jihef on Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:11 pm

    Wandering WB wrote:I took up walking laps around the football field to bring myself back into shape. If I do it everyday, I should be able to run soon. During class, I did not get dizzy and did not have to get water so that's area of improvement number one.
    Yes, this might be a good start, getting back in shape.


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    JudoStu

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    Re: Going back to the mat

    Post by JudoStu on Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:09 am

    Wandering WB wrote:Thank you guys for he comments.

    "I'd focus more on what your coach says about your Judo than what a green belts says, kid or not, 13 years in Judo or not."
    My coach has been tight-lipped so far. I think maybe he hasn't seen enough of my technique yet to make an assessment.


    I get my sandan-33-years in Judo butt kicked by 16 year olds at training camps (doing randori). Some of them are green belts. Some are blue or brown belts. None of them think they should be sandan because they can throw, pin me, or submit me,or because I do so to them with great difficulty. Quite a few of them are young women...
    Ben, at least you are getting out there, which considering your age, is no mean feat.

    Just came back from judo class, lying in my bed typing this up. Took a shower with soap first and had a bite to eat. I took up walking laps around the football field to bring myself back into shape. If I do it everyday, I should be able to run soon. During class, I did not get dizzy and did not have to get water so that's area of improvement number one. We learned posture breaking through applying forearm pressure on the stiff arm into ogoshi and then seoinage. I could not pull that off in randori however. So there's another difference from jiujitsu, where once I see a move taught I can usually pull it off on the same day. In fact, outside of nagekomi the only thing I can get reliably are foot sweeps, when I land a big throw it almost feels accidental. I look for footsweeps and see opportunities for them, where as with big throws the opportunity just seems to almost never be there. During randori, the black belt with whom I once did newaza continued to be so nice it made me feel silly. He didn't throw me once and let me toss him with kani-basami aka flying scissors. I hope it doesn't look like I am so weak I can't take a hard fall. I don't know why he is taking it that easy on me or whether, perhaps it just seems to me like he is. I also randoried standing with two greenbelts, one of whom was the teenager with 13 years of judo. He pushed me around more than the black belt did, despite having a messed up knee, which he thinks will heal by morning. I wanted to see if he could throw me easily because of whatever mistakes I was making, so I was defensive, trying to stay relaxed and just treat it as practice. Turned out he had to work for it. Now when I went with a short, chubby greenbelt in newaza, I felt some of my skills coming back to me. I let him start from mount, back control and knee on stomach two times each and submitted him six times in a short round. Previously I noted that I have difficulty setting up armbars, but this time it was all jujigatame. Six jujigatame in about three minutes starting from inferior positions completely sank in. I showed him how to hold knee on belly correctly - pulling up on the arm and the material at the knee, instead of putting your arm in the collar or on the belt. I even managed to uncross his feet when he was on my back without resorting to leg locks which are illegal in judo. I hope that doesn't look like me beating up on a beginner. Advanced people should practice more cooperatively with beginners instead of just smashing them full force, so here is a practical exercise in cooperation - give up top position, let the guy sink it in, and then do your best to escape and submit.

    Keep posting, it's been rather dead in here lately.


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    GregW

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    Re: Going back to the mat

    Post by GregW on Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:28 pm

    " I hope that doesn't look like me beating up on a beginner. Advanced people should practice more cooperatively with beginners instead of just smashing them full force, so here is a practical exercise in cooperation - give up top position, let the guy sink it in, and then do your best to escape and submit."

    That's an encouraging sign. To me, the biggest difference between BJJ and Judo is not technique--it's culture. The culture of judo is based in jita kyoei (pardon the spelling) and seiroku zenyo. Mutual welfare and benefit as well as the use of minimum, yet sufficient force.

    I had some BJJ guys come in and visit my club a few months ago and it was an interesting contrast. One of them had about 8 years experience, but was not part of any organization and did not hold any rank. He brought a buddy he had been teaching for just a few months. They showed up with dirty gis and they did not know anything about proper courtesies. Their attitude was like they were coming in to just beat up some judo guys. In ground randori, they fought with unwarranted ferocity and attempted to apply techniques judo bans. I had to be very careful for he safety of my students, most of whom are novices. It was "fight club" culture compared to judo's culture of civility and respect.

    Your statement that I quoted above tells me that you are beginning to assimilate judo culture. Marry that to your developing standing technique and your obviously good ground technique. You'll be an exceptional judoka.

    jkw

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    Re: Going back to the mat

    Post by jkw on Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:06 pm

    GregW wrote:" I hope that doesn't look like me beating up on a beginner. Advanced people should practice more cooperatively with beginners instead of just smashing them full force, so here is a practical exercise in cooperation - give up top position, let the guy sink it in, and then do your best to escape and submit."

    That's an encouraging sign.  To me, the biggest difference between BJJ and Judo is not technique--it's culture.  The culture of judo is based in jita kyoei (pardon the spelling) and seiroku zenyo.  Mutual welfare and benefit as well as the use of minimum, yet sufficient force.  

    I had some BJJ guys come in and visit my club a few months ago and it was an interesting contrast.  One of them had about 8 years experience, but was not part of any organization and did not hold any rank.  He brought a buddy he had been teaching for just a few months.  They showed up with dirty gis and they did not know anything about proper courtesies.  Their attitude was like they were coming in to just beat up some judo guys.  In ground randori, they fought with unwarranted ferocity and attempted to apply techniques judo bans.  I had to be very careful for he safety of my students, most of whom are novices.  It was "fight club" culture compared to judo's culture of civility and respect.  

    Your statement that I quoted above tells me that you are beginning to assimilate judo culture.  Marry that to your developing standing technique and your obviously good ground technique.  You'll be an exceptional judoka.  

    This has not been my experience with visiting BJJ guys. All have been very polite, keen to learn and fit in well during randori with stronger and weaker partners. BJJ guys do the fist-bump/hand-slap thing which I guess is something like rei in judo.
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    Jihef

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    Re: Going back to the mat

    Post by Jihef on Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:12 pm

    jkw wrote:BJJ guys do the fist-bump/hand-slap thing which I guess is something like rei in judo.
    Yes, and then proceed to grab your sleeve in the process…
    Evil or Very Mad


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    jkw

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    Re: Going back to the mat

    Post by jkw on Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:28 pm

    Jihef wrote:
    jkw wrote:BJJ guys do the fist-bump/hand-slap thing which I guess is something like rei in judo.
    Yes, and then proceed to grab your sleeve in the process…
    Evil or Very Mad

    Probably fair since I like daki-age in randori.

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