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    Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

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    classicschmosby

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    Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by classicschmosby on Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:58 am

    Could someone more experienced please enlighten me as to the difference between the two throws? I am confident that there is more of a difference than the placement of the foot, but I do not know what the difference is.

    Wandering WB

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Wandering WB on Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:13 am

    The kuzushi and the moment of vulnerability/opportunity are different. For instance, for hiza guruma you get the uke leaning forward. Not necessary for sasae t. a..

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:24 am

    classicschmosby wrote:Could someone more experienced please enlighten me as to the difference between the two throws? I am confident that there is more of a difference than the placement of the foot, but I do not know what the difference is.

    Hi, welcome to Judo Forum ! That's a good question, and not uncommon.

    First, to help out, how long have you been doing Judo ? Do you have an instructor who you can ask ? It's easier to show things in person than describe them on the internet, so if you can get hand-on instruction that would be best.

    To answer you question, Hiza Guruma ideally works more in the horizontal plane. Uke body kind of "spins around" the fulcurm (your foot) on or near the side of their knee,whereas in Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi, the body of uke moves in more an "up and over" action over the fulcurm (your foot on or near their shin/ankle).

    So, Hiza Guruma, around, STKA up and over.

    In practical use, the two can blend together. You can start out doing either one and blend/change into the other. As others here have noted before, the foot placement is not as critical as the action used to do the throw (horizonatal versus "up and over") around/over the fulcurm (your foot) to define the throw. So you could do STKA with your foot blocking the knee area, or Hiza Guruma with the foot blocking the ankle or shin.

    How exactly the pure end members of the throws are done is fairly distinct in terms of tori body part placement and movement, so for a demonstration of those pure end-members, there are distinct differences.





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    Davaro

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Davaro on Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:08 pm

    As Ben said.... The key is in the names of the throws. One (HG) is a "wheel" and the other (STKG) is a lift-and-pull. The kazushi movements when the throws begin are your starting point. Research that and you will understand the differences more easily.


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    Kaji

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Kaji on Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:53 pm

    Ben Reinhardt's post above is pretty much the same as the reply by either Hanon sensei or Akeru sensei to the same question on an older reincarnation of the Judo forum. I remember it as my first time understanding the true difference between the two throws. Thanks for reminding me of it!

    Nozomi

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Nozomi on Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:48 am

    Two throws are completely different, like night and day. Kuruma throws, uke rotates over axis and there is no lift. Hiza guruma, O guruma, etc., uke always rotates over an axis, just different orientation for the different throws. Sasae tsurikomi ashi has big lift and flip in throwing motion. Tori must be very close to uke to achieve correct lift and throwing action. Tori does not have to be close to uke in hiza guruma. Just depend on length of leg of tori to determine distance in hiza guruma.

    Mitsuru

    Jacob3

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Jacob3 on Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:36 pm

    I have been wondering about this for a while now, but never got around to ask it. Seeing this discussion brings it up again.
    I agree about the descriptions given above. Where in HG the foot is just a block creating a fulcrum, in SZKA the foot is used to give uke's leg an extra push/lift. And indeed, the position is often different because of this.

    However, the execution in nage no kata has puzzled me for a while. There we are taught that tori steps away from uke and sticks out his foot to block tori's step. Then only the arms pull him further and therefor he is thrown. The leg/foot does not do any action besides blocking and creating a fulcrum because of it. It is called SZKA, but it seems more like HG to me. Many years ago I was taught a different version, where there wás a lifting action and a lot less space between tori and uke. So I first expected it to be a 'modern development'. However having done some research on it, I cannot find any other version then the blocking version which we do nowadays. Even Otaki and Draeger describe a block in 'formal techniques'. And even the oldest films I can find of people like Mifune clearly show this block.

    Can anyone explain this? Or do I completely misinterpret the concept?

    Kaji

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Kaji on Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:10 pm

    I think with Sasae TKA the foot is acting as a block and not to sweep. (Contrast this with Harai TKA.)

    I've learned the tai-sabaki with Sasae TKA to be doing a tsurikomi lift-and-pull action while the body turns backward for 90 degrees. Uke could take a big step to rebalance herself, so that's why you block that leg of hers to execute the throw.

    Jacob3

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Jacob3 on Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:19 pm

    I do understand how it is/should be executed, but that does not explain the difference between SZKU and HG to me. The action of the foot is still the same ( just a block and therefore creating a fulcrum for a 'kuruma' ). The position of the body can appearantly also be the same ( both cán be 90 degrees on uke ) so only the kuzushi might be a bit different. But I cannot really imagine that only thát creates a completely different principle and therefore a different 'name'.

    Kaji

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Kaji on Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:37 pm

    I guess it is not just the action of your foot but also what the rest of your body is doing. With Sasae TKA all your bodily movements (e.g. lift-and-pull) have the goal of making uke do a front flip. With HG you are taking uke on a merry-go-round.

    At least that is how I see the two throws myself.

    Davaro

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Davaro on Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:43 am

    In STKA the foot does more "work" than in HG. The actions may be similar but in STKA you actually sweep uke whereas in HG you block and use the foot as the fulcrum.

    At least that is my understanding and I may be totally off course with this.


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    Jacob3

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Jacob3 on Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:45 am

    I would expect the same Davaro, but in NNK this is not the case. That is why I wonder.

    Davaro

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Davaro on Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:54 am

    In the "modern" versions of NNK once could say the same about most of the throws.

    I wonder though if the STKA and use of the foot has ever fully been explained in one of the older more classical kata classes or instructionals? Surely if it was a block only, the name of the waza would end in gake?

    Where is CK or Hanon when one needs them? Unfortunately I don't have access to any senior sensei near me so will be in the dark on this until someone with some authority can clarify this.


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    Nozomi

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Nozomi on Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:50 am

    In sasae tsurikomi ashi, the blocking foot does not do more work than hiza guruma.  There is no sweep in STA. In NNK there still must be lift. Lift is done by planted leg and hip, not arms or upper body.  The foot in both throw block uke from moving forward with leg. I repeat, there is no lift or push or sweep in both STA and HG.  If you are trying to sweep or lift with foot then that is mistake. Current NNK style is more like dance and not real throw.

    Mitsuru

    Kaji

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Kaji on Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:28 am

    Another way is to think about Japanese term "sasae" 支え in the name sasae-tsurikomi-ashi 支釣込足. I don't know Japanese, but use something like Google Translate and one of its meanings is prop. The concept of a prop is, as far as I know, a static object that obstructs movement.

    Note that with the other leg throw harai-tsurikomi-ashi 払釣込足, the term harai 払い here means sweep. With this throw you do sweep; with Sasae-TKA you don't.

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:31 am

    Davaro wrote:In STKA the foot does more "work" than in HG. The actions may be similar but in STKA you actually sweep uke whereas in HG you block and use the foot as the fulcrum.

    At least that is my understanding and I may be totally off course with this.

    No, technically there is no "sweep" in STKA...you can push against the foot to block it (otherwise, how are you going to block the forward action uke foot if you don't apply force against it"? Once uke is airborne, your foot may move back because of the lack of resistance...

    That's what you are calling the "sweep".


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:42 am

    Nozomi wrote:In sasae tsurikomi ashi, the blocking foot does not do more work than hiza guruma.  There is no sweep in STA. In NNK there still must be lift. Lift is done by planted leg and hip, not arms or upper body.  The foot in both throw block uke from moving forward with leg. I repeat, there is no lift or push or sweep in both STA and HG.  If you are trying to sweep or lift with foot then that is mistake. Current NNK style is more like dance and not real throw.

    Mitsuru

    I agree. Thank you for the succinct clarification.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:43 am

    One cue I give my students on the two different throw:

    1. STKA is "up and over" or "over"

    2.) HG is "around".

    The two can blend together, transition from one to the other depending on circumstances, especially in randori or shiai.



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    BillC

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by BillC on Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:46 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:One cue I give my students on the two different throw:

    1. STKA is "up and over" or "over"

    2.) HG is "around".

    The two can blend together, transition from one to the other depending on circumstances, especially in randori or shiai.


    Well, this is an extremely long thread for the new forum. Good to see.

    But what really pleases me is to see my student ... an 18 year old nicknamed "Turbo" by the rest of the class ... pull off a beautiful and instinctive sasaetsurikomiashi in his first tournament yesterday. Not a little trip and rolling knockdown ... he inflicted serious airtime on a superior opponent .. ippon gachi. Ben, if we can't write a full page here on the theoretical underpinnings of these techniques, complete with footnotes all the while dropping heavy names like wet sacks of cement ... well Ben, we must be doing something right. Something about efficiency ... I can't quite remember. Wink


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    Jacob3

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Jacob3 on Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:07 am

    [quote="Ben Reinhardt"]
    Nozomi wrote:In sasae tsurikomi ashi, the blocking foot does not do more work than hiza guruma.  There is no sweep in STA. In NNK there still must be lift. Lift is done by planted leg and hip, not arms or upper body.  The foot in both throw block uke from moving forward with leg. I repeat, there is no lift or push or sweep in both STA and HG.  If you are trying to sweep or lift with foot then that is mistake. Current NNK style is more like dance and not real throw.

    Mitsuru

    I cannot really agree on this. That really depends on the performers. Often indeed it looks like a dance instead of realistic throwing, but I still believe that people performing it like that, did not really understand the concept. There are still varies 'versions' possible, that would still comply to 'modern rules'.


    Ben Reinhardt wrote:One cue I give my students on the two different throw:

    1. STKA is "up and over" or "over"

    2.) HG is "around".

    The two can blend together, transition from one to the other depending on circumstances, especially in randori or shiai.


    So, when I understand you correctly, you would say that there is no difference in the 'footwork' but it is all about the direction of the kuzushi? So in STKA uke's direction is 'extended' in the same direction, where in HG his direction is 'diverted' around the axes of tori? I would expect that there should be a larger difference then just that to have them named differently.

    Point is ( BillC ), that in my 'frogpool' there is little knowledge on these different concepts. In fact, many teachers here teach HG as STKA and vice-versa. Harai tsuri komi ashi is even hardly know by any of them and is totally confused with STKA. So all in all, I would simply like to have the differences straight, so I can teach them by their correct name.







    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:09 am

    BillC wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:One cue I give my students on the two different throw:

    1. STKA is "up and over" or "over"

    2.) HG is "around".

    The two can blend together, transition from one to the other depending on circumstances, especially in randori or shiai.


    Well, this is an extremely long thread for the new forum.  Good to see.

    But what really pleases me is to see my student ... an 18 year old nicknamed "Turbo" by the rest of the class ... pull off a beautiful and instinctive Sasae Tsurikomiashi in his first tournament yesterday.  Not a little trip and rolling knockdown ... he inflicted serious airtime on a superior opponent .. ippon gachi.  Ben, if we can't write a full page here on the theoretical underpinnings of these techniques, complete with footnotes all the while dropping heavy names like wet sacks of cement ... well Ben, we must be doing something right.  Something about efficiency ... I can't quite remember. Wink

    I think that STKA and HG are two of the most underutilized throws in judo...especially in shiai. Now that the IJF "no toucha da leg, or I breaka you face" rule is in place, they are even more attractive.

    At Canadian nationals in 2013 I saw a young man clean the clocks of 2 opponents using STKA...I did randori with him at the training camp and complimented him..he said his sensei loves STKA and HG makes them train it a lot.

    Saw another young man use HG a couple of times to great effect at another Canadian tournament the same year...Two definitive ippon in two matches.



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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:35 am

    Jacob3 wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Nozomi wrote:In sasae tsurikomi ashi, the blocking foot does not do more work than hiza guruma.  There is no sweep in STA. In NNK there still must be lift. Lift is done by planted leg and hip, not arms or upper body.  The foot in both throw block uke from moving forward with leg. I repeat, there is no lift or push or sweep in both STA and HG.  If you are trying to sweep or lift with foot then that is mistake. Current NNK style is more like dance and not real throw.

    Mitsuru

    I cannot really agree on this. That really depends on the performers. Often indeed it looks like a dance instead of realistic throwing, but I still believe that people performing it like that, did not really understand the concept. There are still varies 'versions' possible, that would still comply to 'modern rules'.


    Ben Reinhardt wrote:One cue I give my students on the two different throw:

    1. STKA is "up and over" or "over"

    2.) HG is "around".

    The two can blend together, transition from one to the other depending on circumstances, especially in randori or shiai.


    So, when I understand you correctly, you would say that there is no difference in the 'footwork' but it is all about the direction of the kuzushi? So in STKA uke's direction is 'extended' in the same direction, where in HG his direction is 'diverted' around the axes of tori? I would expect that there should be a larger difference then just that to have them named differently.

    Point is ( BillC ), that in my 'frogpool' there is little knowledge on these different concepts. In fact, many teachers here teach HG as STKA and vice-versa. Harai tsuri komi ashi is even hardly know by any of them and is totally confused with STKA. So all in all, I would simply like to have the differences straight, so I can teach them by their correct name.


    How exactly once does either throw depends on relative grip, posture, velocity (that includes direction of movement and "speed", BTW), size of uke and tori, etc.

    Here are some simple cues/key points (yoten) that I have used and heard or observed. Nothing is necessarily written in stone.

    Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi
    1.) Uke lead leg is blocked when it is just passing his other leg, or ahead of his other leg. (Think NNK version of STKA...BTW, what do you think the purpose of that half step on the second step tori makes is?)
    2.) Tori hands do a strong tsurikomi action to focus weight on uke lead foot.
    3.) Foot of tori support leg points(toes) at 90 degrees across path of uke

    Hiza Guruma
    1.) Lead leg is blocked when uke legs are even, or blocked leg is behind lead leg. (there is a version though in which the lead leg is blocked when it is well ahead of the other leg.)
    2.) Tori hands perform tsurikomi in a manner that lead uke around more horizontally than "up and over". However, that can very considerably.
    3.) Foot of tori support leg (toes at 45 degree angle to foward path of uke

    My apologies for the verbal descriptions. Some things need to be seen and felt to be appreciated.

    Watch some of these, it may help.
    From the Kodokan:




    The exquisite judo and teaching of Mr. Katanishi:




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    BillC

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by BillC on Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:02 am

    Jacob3 wrote:
    Point is ( BillC ), that in my 'frogpool' there is little knowledge on these different concepts. In fact, many teachers here teach HG as STKA and vice-versa. Harai tsuri komi ashi is even hardly know by any of them and is totally confused with STKA. So all in all, I would simply like to have the differences straight, so I can teach them by their correct name.


    1. Excellent "frog in a well" reference.

    2. How sure are you that what you read here is going to be any better?

    Point I was trying to make ... beyond what Ben has already noted ... when you attack and someone falls down ... for real ... then you will know.

    Should we throw haraitsurikomiashi into the mix? Just to be perverse.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:07 am

    BillC wrote:
    Jacob3 wrote:
    Point is ( BillC ), that in my 'frogpool' there is little knowledge on these different concepts. In fact, many teachers here teach HG as STKA and vice-versa. Harai tsuri komi ashi is even hardly know by any of them and is totally confused with STKA. So all in all, I would simply like to have the differences straight, so I can teach them by their correct name.


    1.  Excellent "frog in a well" reference.  

    2.  How sure are you that what you read here is going to be any better?

    Point I was trying to make ... beyond what Ben has already noted ... when you attack and someone falls down ... for real ... then you will know.

    Should we throw haraitsurikomiashi into the mix?  Just to be perverse.

    OOOOOO, I REALLY like Harai Tsurikomi Ashi ! Or is it Okuri Ashi Barai ?

    The world may never know...

    Splat is splat for sure, Bill ! yeah, saw a T-shirt on a Japanese instructor visiting BC...Slogan was "less chat, more splat".


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    Richard Riehle

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Richard Riehle on Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:37 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    BillC wrote:
    Jacob3 wrote:
    Point is ( BillC ), that in my 'frogpool' there is little knowledge on these different concepts. In fact, many teachers here teach HG as STKA and vice-versa. Harai tsuri komi ashi is even hardly know by any of them and is totally confused with STKA. So all in all, I would simply like to have the differences straight, so I can teach them by their correct name.


    1.  Excellent "frog in a well" reference.  

    2.  How sure are you that what you read here is going to be any better?

    Point I was trying to make ... beyond what Ben has already noted ... when you attack and someone falls down ... for real ... then you will know.

    Should we throw haraitsurikomiashi into the mix?  Just to be perverse.

    OOOOOO, I REALLY like Harai Tsurikomi Ashi ! Or is it Okuri Ashi Barai ?

    The world may never know...

    Splat is splat for sure, Bill ! yeah, saw a T-shirt on a Japanese instructor visiting BC...Slogan was "less chat, more splat".  

    Harai-tsuri-komi-ashi (HTKA) is one of my favorite techniques.  It is different from Okuri-ashi-harai in some important ways.   As uke is moving one foot to the rear, move your own body directly toward him and sweep the retreating foot upward and behind his supporting foot.  I do this to either retreating foot without changing the grip.

    Some forms of Okuri-ashi-harai (OKAH) can look, at first glance, as if they are actually HTKA.  However, the tsukuri as well as the kake are quite different.   In OKAH, as uke's right foot is retreating, I move my right foot to his left, often even a little beyond his left foot, bringing my body very close to his, and sweep both feet; the sweeping is identical to that in NNK.   The tsukuri is quite different.  The effect is the same.

    As for Hiza-guruma (HZG) versus Sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi (STKA), they are two entirely different throws, with different debana, different tsukuri, and different kuzushi -- and much different kake.   The simplest, though not the most detailed difference, is the debana.  In HZG, I like to catch uke's rear leg as it is about to advance, block the knee, and create a large circle with his knee as a fulcrum.  When done well, it is a quite spectacular effect.   With STKA, uke's foot is advancing more directly.  I like to force him onto his toes with his advanced leg as straight as possible, move my body to the opposite side of his advance with the toes of my supporting foot pointed toward his advancing arch (the arch of his foot), lean my own body backward as far as practical, turn my head away, and using both my hands to propel him forward, let him drop suddenly.  

    The hand movement is significantly different between HZG and STKA.  

    An interesting variation of STKA is useful in self-defense.  As someone reaches to grab you, place your hands beneath his armpits and perform all the tsukuri and kake movements exactly as you would if he were wearing a Judogi.   If you want to throw the attacker without injuring him, continue to keep your hands within his armpits as he falls, to make sure his head is protected -- or even move one hand behind his head for more effective protection.   This works well against someone who has had too much to drink who you do not want to actually injure.

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