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    Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

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    Jacob3

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Jacob3 on Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:18 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    How exactly once does either throw depends on relative grip, posture, velocity (that includes direction of movement and "speed", BTW), size of uke and tori, etc.

    Here are some simple cues/key points (yoten) that I have used and heard or observed. Nothing is necessarily written in stone.

    Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi
    1.) Uke lead leg is blocked when it is just passing his other leg, or ahead of his other leg. (Think NNK version of STKA...BTW, what do you think the purpose of that half step on the second step tori makes is?)
    2.) Tori hands do a strong tsurikomi action to focus weight on uke lead foot.
    3.) Foot of tori support leg points(toes) at 90 degrees across path of uke

    Hiza Guruma
    1.) Lead leg is blocked when uke legs are even, or blocked leg is behind lead leg. (there is a version though in which the lead leg is blocked when it is well ahead of the other leg.)
    2.) Tori hands perform tsurikomi in a manner that lead uke around more horizontally than "up and over". However, that can very considerably.
    3.) Foot of tori support leg (toes at 45 degree angle to foward path of uke

    My apologies for the verbal descriptions. Some things need to be seen and felt to be appreciated.

    Watch some of these, it may help.
    From the Kodokan:




    The exquisite judo and teaching of Mr. Katanishi:



    Well, to be honest, your descriptions make more sense then the clips Laughing
    Especially in the second clip, I can see hardly any difference between the two, except for the placement of the foot of tori on the leg of uke. This is btw one of the ways many teachers explain them. 'when the foot is somewhere around the knee of uke, it is HG. When it is on the ankle, it is SZKA.' Which is of course nonsense, if that was the only difference.

    I am at work atm, so I have no sound. In the last two clips I see some familiar versions with what seems an interesting explanation. I will watch them lateron. Thank you!

    Jacob3

    Posts : 50
    Join date : 2013-09-17
    Location : Netherlands

    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Jacob3 on Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:48 pm

    BillC wrote:
    Jacob3 wrote:
    Point is ( BillC ), that in my 'frogpool' there is little knowledge on these different concepts. In fact, many teachers here teach HG as STKA and vice-versa. Harai tsuri komi ashi is even hardly know by any of them and is totally confused with STKA. So all in all, I would simply like to have the differences straight, so I can teach them by their correct name.


    1.  Excellent "frog in a well" reference.  

    2.  How sure are you that what you read here is going to be any better?

    2. Only one thing is sure in life Laughing . But at least the pool is bigger here! And the more information, the better.

    BillC wrote:
    Point I was trying to make ... beyond what Ben has already noted ... when you attack and someone falls down ... for real ... then you will know.

    No it won't  Wink  I already know that both can be very effective so that is not the point. Explaining which throw it was someone has used, is a lot harder. And I understand your point. If it works it works, so who cares how it is named.
    But when I am trying to teach one of both to a group, and another teacher is trying the same one day later, but uses totally different arguements, then things become very frustrating for the students  Shocked

    BillC wrote:
    Should we throw haraitsurikomiashi into the mix?  Just to be perverse.
    [/quote]

    Lets not hyjack this thread  Laughing

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA

    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:48 am

    Jacob3 wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    How exactly once does either throw depends on relative grip, posture, velocity (that includes direction of movement and "speed", BTW), size of uke and tori, etc.

    Here are some simple cues/key points (yoten) that I have used and heard or observed. Nothing is necessarily written in stone.

    Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi
    1.) Uke lead leg is blocked when it is just passing his other leg, or ahead of his other leg. (Think NNK version of STKA...BTW, what do you think the purpose of that half step on the second step tori makes is?)
    2.) Tori hands do a strong tsurikomi action to focus weight on uke lead foot.
    3.) Foot of tori support leg points(toes) at 90 degrees across path of uke

    Hiza Guruma
    1.) Lead leg is blocked when uke legs are even, or blocked leg is behind lead leg. (there is a version though in which the lead leg is blocked when it is well ahead of the other leg.)
    2.) Tori hands perform tsurikomi in a manner that lead uke around more horizontally than "up and over". However, that can very considerably.
    3.) Foot of tori support leg (toes at 45 degree angle to foward path of uke

    My apologies for the verbal descriptions. Some things need to be seen and felt to be appreciated.

    Watch some of these, it may help.
    From the Kodokan:




    The exquisite judo and teaching of Mr. Katanishi:



    Well, to be honest, your descriptions make more sense then the clips Laughing
    Especially in the second clip, I can see hardly any difference between the two, except for the placement of the foot of tori on the leg of uke. This is btw one of the ways many teachers explain them. 'when the foot is somewhere around the knee of uke, it is HG. When it is on the ankle, it is SZKA.' Which is of course nonsense, if that was the only difference.

    I am at work atm, so I have no sound. In the last two clips I see some familiar versions with what seems an interesting explanation. I will watch them lateron. Thank you!

    In the second clip, watch the path of uke body in Hiza Guruma. See how it is "around" the fulcrum of the foot on the outside of uke knee? Then watch the clips of STKA. Watch the patch of uke body/center, and compare.

    So to teach Hiza Guruma, to make the principle stand out (kuruma), try teaching the version where uke knee is back. In that position there is no way to throw uke "up and over", or just "straight over". He/she HAS to rotate.

    Then teach STKA (Nage No kata version if they can do it would work), or pick one from the video that makes sense to you.

    So the idea is to teach the version of each throw that pretty much precludes anything but the "pure principle" in action.

    In practical application, don't worry so much about how much of which principle is involved. Each throw has a higher probability of working or even being attempted in given situations...which kind of flow from the principles themselves.

    Remember, that the two can kind of blend together. Not everybody demonstrates totally "pure" versions all the time.


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    Nozomi

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Nozomi on Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:04 pm

    Jacob3 wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Nozomi wrote:In sasae tsurikomi ashi, the blocking foot does not do more work than hiza guruma.  There is no sweep in STA. In NNK there still must be lift. Lift is done by planted leg and hip, not arms or upper body.  The foot in both throw block uke from moving forward with leg. I repeat, there is no lift or push or sweep in both STA and HG.  If you are trying to sweep or lift with foot then that is mistake. Current NNK style is more like dance and not real throw.

    Mitsuru

    I cannot really agree on this. That really depends on the performers. Often indeed it looks like a dance instead of realistic throwing, but I still believe that people performing it like that, did not really understand the concept. There are still varies 'versions' possible, that would still comply to 'modern rules'.


    Ben Reinhardt wrote:One cue I give my students on the two different throw:

    1. STKA is "up and over" or "over"

    2.) HG is "around".

    The two can blend together, transition from one to the other depending on circumstances, especially in randori or shiai.


    So, when I understand you correctly, you would say that there is no difference in the 'footwork' but it is all about the direction of the kuzushi? So in STKA uke's direction is 'extended' in the same direction, where in HG his direction is 'diverted' around the axes of tori? I would expect that there should be a larger difference then just that to have them named differently.

    Point is ( BillC ), that in my 'frogpool' there is little knowledge on these different concepts. In fact, many teachers here teach HG as STKA and vice-versa. Harai tsuri komi ashi is even hardly know by any of them and is totally confused with STKA. So all in all, I would simply like to have the differences straight, so I can teach them by their correct name.







    To Mr. Jacob, I attend kata class at Kodokan on regular basis. I have been for almost 60 years. Kodokan sets standards for how throw to be achieved. Current standard for how STA to be done in NNK is not real throw. Can not be accomplished for real in randori or shiai. There is no question about this. My opinion, current standard for NNK made by Kodokan is against principle of Kano for randori no kata and is disappointing for me.

    Mitsuru

    Jacob3

    Posts : 50
    Join date : 2013-09-17
    Location : Netherlands

    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Jacob3 on Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:56 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Jacob3 wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    How exactly once does either throw depends on relative grip, posture, velocity (that includes direction of movement and "speed", BTW), size of uke and tori, etc.

    Here are some simple cues/key points (yoten) that I have used and heard or observed. Nothing is necessarily written in stone.

    Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi
    1.) Uke lead leg is blocked when it is just passing his other leg, or ahead of his other leg. (Think NNK version of STKA...BTW, what do you think the purpose of that half step on the second step tori makes is?)
    2.) Tori hands do a strong tsurikomi action to focus weight on uke lead foot.
    3.) Foot of tori support leg points(toes) at 90 degrees across path of uke

    Hiza Guruma
    1.) Lead leg is blocked when uke legs are even, or blocked leg is behind lead leg. (there is a version though in which the lead leg is blocked when it is well ahead of the other leg.)
    2.) Tori hands perform tsurikomi in a manner that lead uke around more horizontally than "up and over". However, that can very considerably.
    3.) Foot of tori support leg (toes at 45 degree angle to foward path of uke

    My apologies for the verbal descriptions. Some things need to be seen and felt to be appreciated.

    Watch some of these, it may help.
    From the Kodokan:




    The exquisite judo and teaching of Mr. Katanishi:



    Well, to be honest, your descriptions make more sense then the clips Laughing
    Especially in the second clip, I can see hardly any difference between the two, except for the placement of the foot of tori on the leg of uke. This is btw one of the ways many teachers explain them. 'when the foot is somewhere around the knee of uke, it is HG. When it is on the ankle, it is SZKA.' Which is of course nonsense, if that was the only difference.

    I am at work atm, so I have no sound. In the last two clips I see some familiar versions with what seems an interesting explanation. I will watch them lateron. Thank you!

    In the second clip, watch the path of uke body in Hiza Guruma. See how it is "around" the fulcrum of the foot on the outside of uke knee? Then watch the clips of STKA. Watch the patch of uke body/center, and compare.

    So to teach Hiza Guruma, to make the principle stand out (kuruma), try teaching the version where uke knee is back. In that position there is no way to throw uke "up and over", or just "straight over". He/she HAS to rotate.

    Then teach STKA (Nage No kata version if they can do it would work), or pick one from the video that makes sense to you.

    So the idea is to teach the version of each throw that pretty much precludes anything but the "pure principle" in action.

    In practical application, don't worry so much about how much of which principle is involved. Each throw has a higher probability of working or even being attempted in given situations...which kind of flow from the principles themselves.

    Remember, that the two can kind of blend together. Not everybody demonstrates totally "pure" versions all the time.

    I have indeed noticed those slight differences, and was already aware of those. However I would have expected more distinctive differences, especially in leg action. But appearantly this is it. When I see them perform both, I can imagine that if they would do both, 10x fast after one another, they would likely become almost the same, or even mixed up. Like you say, they indeed almost blend together.

    Thank you for your explanation!

    Jacob3

    Posts : 50
    Join date : 2013-09-17
    Location : Netherlands

    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Jacob3 on Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:40 pm

    Nozomi wrote:

    To Mr. Jacob, I attend kata class at Kodokan on regular basis. I have been for almost 60 years.  Kodokan sets standards for how throw to be achieved. Current standard for how STA to be done in NNK is not real throw. Can not be accomplished for real in randori or shiai. There is no question about this.  My opinion, current standard for NNK made by Kodokan is against principle of Kano for randori no kata and is disappointing for me.

    Mitsuru

    Well, I see your point. I come from a very small country ( Holland ). The discussion about the 'current' standard and the 'old' way, is extremely vivid here. Even so much that 'we' even have 2 official standards. The Kodokan style and the 'Busen' style. In essense it comes down to the vivedness of how it was done in the past to the 'dance-like' version it is done nowadays. So we have two really extreme situations. Some schools perform like they are battling one-another, and some others like they build robots. Luckily, in between there is a vast group that tries to take the 'Kodokan' version as a basis and tries to make it as realistic as possible.

    All in all, I believe that kata is personal. No two people perform it the same way, due to their size/motorics or experience.
    I have never been to the Kodokan, but it has been discussed here by people who go there anually that even there, there is no 'standard', but only teachers-preferences. I assume you recognise this?
    I regularly attend classes from people how do reagularly go to the Kodokan. And I try to attend any courses here by Kodokan sensei who visit Holland. And I watch most of the youtube tapes of the Kodokan Summer Courses. And I see many differences between any teachers.

    So when I take a class, and anyone is trying to teach me a different way then what I am used to, I try to figure out the usefullness of that version. I do not see kata throws as directly usefull throws in randori or shiai, but versions that at first try to emphasise the details of the principles BEHIND the throw. And that can be a totally different concept. If I find that usefullness, I have no problem to perform it like that. However, if I dont, I wont Laughing
    For example, I have not yet figured out the use in kata guruma to hold uke up for a few seconds, before throwing him. I teach my students to do so however, because examiners simply want to see it that way. But at the same time I explain them that there is no use for doing that, except for safety reasons for starting practitioners. I myself never hold uke up, but immediately throw him. And so far, no one has ever told me that what I do is wrong / not Kodokan. And there are some other examples aswell.

    So I try to not just simply 'follow the leader' because even having only half the experience ( in years ) you have, I see the same thing happening. To me, it is not interesting how a small group of people things it should be performed, but that it feels correct to me. But still being aware of the fact that a few years from now I might realise that what felt correct a few years ago, was in fact not ideal, since I might have developed since. A learning curve, and as exprience rises, the throws become more realistic. At least in my experience.

    That is why I said I do not agree with your remark.

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:37 am

    Jacob3 wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Jacob3 wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    How exactly once does either throw depends on relative grip, posture, velocity (that includes direction of movement and "speed", BTW), size of uke and tori, etc.

    Here are some simple cues/key points (yoten) that I have used and heard or observed. Nothing is necessarily written in stone.

    Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi
    1.) Uke lead leg is blocked when it is just passing his other leg, or ahead of his other leg. (Think NNK version of STKA...BTW, what do you think the purpose of that half step on the second step tori makes is?)
    2.) Tori hands do a strong tsurikomi action to focus weight on uke lead foot.
    3.) Foot of tori support leg points(toes) at 90 degrees across path of uke

    Hiza Guruma
    1.) Lead leg is blocked when uke legs are even, or blocked leg is behind lead leg. (there is a version though in which the lead leg is blocked when it is well ahead of the other leg.)
    2.) Tori hands perform tsurikomi in a manner that lead uke around more horizontally than "up and over". However, that can very considerably.
    3.) Foot of tori support leg (toes at 45 degree angle to foward path of uke

    My apologies for the verbal descriptions. Some things need to be seen and felt to be appreciated.

    Watch some of these, it may help.
    From the Kodokan:




    The exquisite judo and teaching of Mr. Katanishi:



    Well, to be honest, your descriptions make more sense then the clips Laughing
    Especially in the second clip, I can see hardly any difference between the two, except for the placement of the foot of tori on the leg of uke. This is btw one of the ways many teachers explain them. 'when the foot is somewhere around the knee of uke, it is HG. When it is on the ankle, it is SZKA.' Which is of course nonsense, if that was the only difference.

    I am at work atm, so I have no sound. In the last two clips I see some familiar versions with what seems an interesting explanation. I will watch them lateron. Thank you!

    In the second clip, watch the path of uke body in Hiza Guruma. See how it is "around" the fulcrum of the foot on the outside of uke knee? Then watch the clips of STKA. Watch the patch of uke body/center, and compare.

    So to teach Hiza Guruma, to make the principle stand out (kuruma), try teaching the version where uke knee is back. In that position there is no way to throw uke "up and over", or just "straight over". He/she HAS to rotate.

    Then teach STKA (Nage No kata version if they can do it would work), or pick one from the video that makes sense to you.

    So the idea is to teach the version of each throw that pretty much precludes anything but the "pure principle" in action.

    In practical application, don't worry so much about how much of which principle is involved. Each throw has a higher probability of working or even being attempted in given situations...which kind of flow from the principles themselves.

    Remember, that the two can kind of blend together. Not everybody demonstrates totally "pure" versions all the time.

    I have indeed noticed those slight differences, and was already aware of those. However I would have expected more distinctive differences, especially in leg action. But apparently this is it. When I see them perform both, I can imagine that if they would do both, 10x fast after one another, they would likely become almost the same, or even mixed up. Like you say, they indeed almost blend together.

    Thank you for your explanation!

    Jacob,

    It's not the "leg action" that defines the throw, it's the principle involved, kuruma or sasae (I suppose that it, maybe it's tsurikomi), the final throwing action.

    You can isolate end members of each throw to demonstrate the differences in the throws (principles), then explain to your students how they can blend together, and show them how that work too by example.

    That's all any of us can do.

    Sometimes I think that judoka want (not saying you) everything to be so cut and dried, A,B,C and uke falls down...in reality, it doesn't work that way.





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    Jacob3

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Jacob3 on Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:38 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    Sometimes I think that judoka want (not saying you) everything to be so cut and dried, A,B,C and uke falls down...in reality, it doesn't work that way.


    I agree.
    I have several students who also train with other teachers, and often we have discussions about f.e. positions of the feet. You do not want to know how many times I was corrected by students, when teaching fe koshi guruma, that the feet should both be outside the feet of uke. Then I explain that they CAN also be inside but do not NEED to be, as long as the hip/body is positioned correctly for the kuruma motion. Then they ask me if I am really sure, because another teacher says that when the feet are in between ukes feet, it is called kubi nage.......
    Which is nonsense of course, but this is only a simple example out of many. That is why I often try to grasp the principles behind the technique to be able to explain exactly what is/should be happening. And indeed, I am often told that I go too far in-depth for the liking of some people Laughing

    Richard Riehle

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Richard Riehle on Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:31 am

    Jacob3 wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    Sometimes I think that judoka want (not saying you) everything to be so cut and dried, A,B,C and uke falls down...in reality, it doesn't work that way.


    I agree.
    I have several students who also train with other teachers, and often we have discussions about f.e. positions of the feet. You do not want to know how many times I was corrected by students, when teaching fe koshi guruma, that the feet should both be outside the feet of uke. Then I explain that they CAN also be inside but do not NEED to be, as long as the hip/body is positioned correctly for the kuruma motion. Then they ask me if I am really sure, because another teacher says that when the feet are in between ukes feet, it is called kubi nage.......
    Which is nonsense of course, but this is only a simple example out of many. That is why I often try to grasp the principles behind the technique to be able to explain exactly what is/should be happening. And indeed, I am often told that I go too far in-depth for the liking of some people Laughing
    There is a lot of misunderstanding between koshi-guruma and the old jujutsu technique, kubi-nage. Kubi, in Japanese, is "neck" and means throwing by wrapping one's arm around the neck. In Koshi-guruma, we do not wrap an arm around the neck. Properly, the position of the arm is around the shoulder, close to, but not actually around the neck.

    In Kubi-nage, it is often the case where one leg is extended behind uke's leg. In Koshi-guruma, the feet are together. The essential part of the Koshi-guruma is how one's hip (koshi) is positioned relative to uke's body. The hip should be extended, with knees bent, so that tori's hips are significantly under uke's body, farther than is typical of an o-goshi. If tori has only one leg extended behind uke's leg, it is probably going to be a kubi-nage, and if tori's arm is also around uke's neck, it is almost definitely a kubi-nage.

    Kubi-nage is a self-defense technique, and can be very dangerous. Some tournament directors proscribe koshi-guruma because it can look too much like kubi-nage.

    In my modest experience, koshi-guruma is rarely a technique of direct attack. Rather, it is a technique of momentary opportunity, often a follow-up to a failed attack by either tori or uke. It is a close contact technique that usually involves some lifting. However, the bent knees are important as part of the tsukuri. The kake is a circular motion as the knees (remember the feet are only a few inches apart) straighten and the upper body turns. I have seen experts in this technique also include a slight twist of the hip not unlike that used in uki-goshi, but very few people can do that effectively. I know I can't (but then I am an old man about to enter his eighth decade).



    Davaro

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Davaro on Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:04 pm

    Richard Riehle wrote:
    Jacob3 wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    Sometimes I think that judoka want (not saying you) everything to be so cut and dried, A,B,C and uke falls down...in reality, it doesn't work that way.


    I agree.
    I have several students who also train with other teachers, and often we have discussions about f.e. positions of the feet. You do not want to know how many times I was corrected by students, when teaching fe koshi guruma, that the feet should both be outside the feet of uke. Then I explain that they CAN also be inside but do not NEED to be, as long as the hip/body is positioned correctly for the kuruma motion. Then they ask me if I am really sure, because another teacher says that when the feet are in between ukes feet, it is called kubi nage.......
    Which is nonsense of course, but this is only a simple example out of many. That is why I often try to grasp the principles behind the technique to be able to explain exactly what is/should be happening. And indeed, I am often told that I go too far in-depth for the liking of some people Laughing
    There is a lot of misunderstanding between koshi-guruma and the old jujutsu technique, kubi-nage.   Kubi, in Japanese, is "neck" and means throwing by wrapping one's arm around the neck.   In Koshi-guruma, we do not wrap an arm around the neck.  Properly, the position of the arm is around the shoulder, close to, but not actually around the neck.  

    In Kubi-nage, it is often the case where one leg is extended behind uke's leg.   In Koshi-guruma, the feet are together.  The essential part of the Koshi-guruma is how one's hip (koshi) is positioned relative to uke's body.   The hip should be extended, with knees bent, so that tori's hips are significantly under uke's body, farther than is typical of an o-goshi.   If tori has only one leg extended behind uke's leg, it is probably going to be a kubi-nage, and if tori's arm is also around uke's neck, it is almost definitely a kubi-nage.  

    Kubi-nage is a self-defense technique, and can be very dangerous.   Some tournament directors proscribe koshi-guruma because it can look too much like kubi-nage.  

    In my modest experience, koshi-guruma is rarely a technique of direct attack.  Rather, it is a technique of momentary opportunity, often a follow-up to a failed attack by either tori or uke.   It is a close contact technique that usually involves some lifting.  However, the bent knees are important as part of the tsukuri.  The kake is a circular motion as the knees (remember the feet are only a few inches apart) straighten and the upper body turns.   I have seen experts in this technique also include a slight twist of the hip not unlike that used in uki-goshi, but very few people can do that effectively.   I know I can't (but then I am an old man about to enter his eighth decade).
     


    Without wanting to derail the thread, I find it interesting that kubi-nage, although not taught here, if often seen used by the youngest kids who almost naturally revert to this when they cant throw an opponent. It is almost a "natural" go-to movement to get someone to the ground. If f.e one sees a playground fight between 2 3rd graders one invariably takes the other one down using what would look like a kubi-nage.

    I am not sure if it is so in all countries but here, when refereeing kids younger than 13, as soon as a kubi-nage "grip" is taken (as the arm is wrapped around the neck) we call mate and explain they must not. If a throw happens before mate can be called, it does not score.

    Now, back on topic I wish to thank all contributors to this thread (including those via pm) as I for one have learned a great deal about the differences between the two throws.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:54 am

    Jacob3 wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    Sometimes I think that judoka want (not saying you) everything to be so cut and dried, A,B,C and uke falls down...in reality, it doesn't work that way.


    I agree.
    I have several students who also train with other teachers, and often we have discussions about f.e. positions of the feet. You do not want to know how many times I was corrected by students, when teaching fe koshi guruma, that the feet should both be outside the feet of uke. Then I explain that they CAN also be inside but do not NEED to be, as long as the hip/body is positioned correctly for the kuruma motion. Then they ask me if I am really sure, because another teacher says that when the feet are in between ukes feet, it is called kubi nage.......
    Which is nonsense of course, but this is only a simple example out of many. That is why I often try to grasp the principles behind the technique to be able to explain exactly what is/should be happening. And indeed, I am often told that I go too far in-depth for the liking of some people Laughing

    You have to match your talk to the level and interest of the audience. You can hone it down quite a bit if you try, if you haven't already.



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    Jacob3

    Posts : 50
    Join date : 2013-09-17
    Location : Netherlands

    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Jacob3 on Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:01 pm

    Richard Riehle wrote:
    Jacob3 wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    Sometimes I think that judoka want (not saying you) everything to be so cut and dried, A,B,C and uke falls down...in reality, it doesn't work that way.


    I agree.
    I have several students who also train with other teachers, and often we have discussions about f.e. positions of the feet. You do not want to know how many times I was corrected by students, when teaching fe koshi guruma, that the feet should both be outside the feet of uke. Then I explain that they CAN also be inside but do not NEED to be, as long as the hip/body is positioned correctly for the kuruma motion. Then they ask me if I am really sure, because another teacher says that when the feet are in between ukes feet, it is called kubi nage.......
    Which is nonsense of course, but this is only a simple example out of many. That is why I often try to grasp the principles behind the technique to be able to explain exactly what is/should be happening. And indeed, I am often told that I go too far in-depth for the liking of some people Laughing
    There is a lot of misunderstanding between koshi-guruma and the old jujutsu technique, kubi-nage.   Kubi, in Japanese, is "neck" and means throwing by wrapping one's arm around the neck.   In Koshi-guruma, we do not wrap an arm around the neck.  Properly, the position of the arm is around the shoulder, close to, but not actually around the neck.  

    In Kubi-nage, it is often the case where one leg is extended behind uke's leg.   In Koshi-guruma, the feet are together.  The essential part of the Koshi-guruma is how one's hip (koshi) is positioned relative to uke's body.   The hip should be extended, with knees bent, so that tori's hips are significantly under uke's body, farther than is typical of an o-goshi.   If tori has only one leg extended behind uke's leg, it is probably going to be a kubi-nage, and if tori's arm is also around uke's neck, it is almost definitely a kubi-nage.  

    Kubi-nage is a self-defense technique, and can be very dangerous.   Some tournament directors proscribe koshi-guruma because it can look too much like kubi-nage.  

    In my modest experience, koshi-guruma is rarely a technique of direct attack.  Rather, it is a technique of momentary opportunity, often a follow-up to a failed attack by either tori or uke.   It is a close contact technique that usually involves some lifting.  However, the bent knees are important as part of the tsukuri.  The kake is a circular motion as the knees (remember the feet are only a few inches apart) straighten and the upper body turns.   I have seen experts in this technique also include a slight twist of the hip not unlike that used in uki-goshi, but very few people can do that effectively.   I know I can't (but then I am an old man about to enter his eighth decade).
     


    Thank you.
    I am well aware of the differences between the two, but few are ( over here ). In fact, it is often taught exactly the other way around, regarding the footwork. When tori's feet are together, it is kubi nage and when they are spread ( even outside ukes feet ), it is koshi guruma. This is taught to be THE difference between the two. All based on a few pictures in an old book from someone who appearantly misinterpreted the concept. I have to explain the difference quite often, and even then some teachers fall back into old habits easily.

    Jacob3

    Posts : 50
    Join date : 2013-09-17
    Location : Netherlands

    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Jacob3 on Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:08 pm

    Davaro wrote:
    Richard Riehle wrote:
    Jacob3 wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    Sometimes I think that judoka want (not saying you) everything to be so cut and dried, A,B,C and uke falls down...in reality, it doesn't work that way.


    I agree.
    I have several students who also train with other teachers, and often we have discussions about f.e. positions of the feet. You do not want to know how many times I was corrected by students, when teaching fe koshi guruma, that the feet should both be outside the feet of uke. Then I explain that they CAN also be inside but do not NEED to be, as long as the hip/body is positioned correctly for the kuruma motion. Then they ask me if I am really sure, because another teacher says that when the feet are in between ukes feet, it is called kubi nage.......
    Which is nonsense of course, but this is only a simple example out of many. That is why I often try to grasp the principles behind the technique to be able to explain exactly what is/should be happening. And indeed, I am often told that I go too far in-depth for the liking of some people Laughing
    There is a lot of misunderstanding between koshi-guruma and the old jujutsu technique, kubi-nage.   Kubi, in Japanese, is "neck" and means throwing by wrapping one's arm around the neck.   In Koshi-guruma, we do not wrap an arm around the neck.  Properly, the position of the arm is around the shoulder, close to, but not actually around the neck.  

    In Kubi-nage, it is often the case where one leg is extended behind uke's leg.   In Koshi-guruma, the feet are together.  The essential part of the Koshi-guruma is how one's hip (koshi) is positioned relative to uke's body.   The hip should be extended, with knees bent, so that tori's hips are significantly under uke's body, farther than is typical of an o-goshi.   If tori has only one leg extended behind uke's leg, it is probably going to be a kubi-nage, and if tori's arm is also around uke's neck, it is almost definitely a kubi-nage.  

    Kubi-nage is a self-defense technique, and can be very dangerous.   Some tournament directors proscribe koshi-guruma because it can look too much like kubi-nage.  

    In my modest experience, koshi-guruma is rarely a technique of direct attack.  Rather, it is a technique of momentary opportunity, often a follow-up to a failed attack by either tori or uke.   It is a close contact technique that usually involves some lifting.  However, the bent knees are important as part of the tsukuri.  The kake is a circular motion as the knees (remember the feet are only a few inches apart) straighten and the upper body turns.   I have seen experts in this technique also include a slight twist of the hip not unlike that used in uki-goshi, but very few people can do that effectively.   I know I can't (but then I am an old man about to enter his eighth decade).
     


    Without wanting to derail the thread, I find it interesting that kubi-nage, although not taught here, if often seen used by the youngest kids who almost naturally revert to this when they cant throw an opponent. It is almost a "natural" go-to movement to get someone to the ground. If f.e one sees a playground fight between 2 3rd graders one invariably takes the other one down using what would look like a kubi-nage.

    I am not sure if it is so in all countries but here, when refereeing kids younger than 13, as soon as a kubi-nage "grip" is taken (as the arm is wrapped around the neck) we call mate and explain they must not. If a throw happens before mate can be called, it does not score.

    Now, back on topic I wish to thank all contributors to this thread (including those via pm) as I for one have learned a great deal about the differences between the two throws.

    In the past we also did not allow kids to grab around the neck. However, nowadays I rarely see any referee stop the match because of it and even give scores for a kubi nage. Although I must admit that I only attend a few regional competitions, so I am not sure how this is handled nowadays at (inter-)nationals.

    Jacob3

    Posts : 50
    Join date : 2013-09-17
    Location : Netherlands

    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Jacob3 on Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:24 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Jacob3 wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    Sometimes I think that judoka want (not saying you) everything to be so cut and dried, A,B,C and uke falls down...in reality, it doesn't work that way.


    I agree.
    I have several students who also train with other teachers, and often we have discussions about f.e. positions of the feet. You do not want to know how many times I was corrected by students, when teaching fe koshi guruma, that the feet should both be outside the feet of uke. Then I explain that they CAN also be inside but do not NEED to be, as long as the hip/body is positioned correctly for the kuruma motion. Then they ask me if I am really sure, because another teacher says that when the feet are in between ukes feet, it is called kubi nage.......
    Which is nonsense of course, but this is only a simple example out of many. That is why I often try to grasp the principles behind the technique to be able to explain exactly what is/should be happening. And indeed, I am often told that I go too far in-depth for the liking of some people Laughing

    You have to match your talk to the level and interest of the audience. You can hone it down quite a bit if you try, if you haven't already.


    O, don't worry about that. It was not ment as a frustration.
    We have several teachers at my club with all their own strenghts and weaknesses, and we 'naturally' devide the 'audience' accordingly. We have some that are extremely good with kids but less with seniors, and vice versa. I belong to the latter ones, so mostly 14-60 for me. And most of those really appreciate some more in-depth understanding. The only times it sometimes gets a bit too much, is when we talk about techniques amongst the teachers, and some get to hear that what they have been teaching for many years, is in fact incorrect. You can imagine that that might be frustrating sometimes. Not everyone is evenly open for that, and to convince them, I tend to hold rather large lectures which is not always directly appreciated since they first have to get used to the idea pale . But in the mean time, we all develop!

    Jihef

    Posts : 152
    Join date : 2013-09-06
    Location : Brussels, Belgium

    Re: Sasae tsurikomi ashi vs Hiza guruma

    Post by Jihef on Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:26 pm

    Richard Riehle wrote:There is a lot of misunderstanding between koshi-guruma and the old jujutsu technique, kubi-nage.   Kubi, in Japanese, is "neck" and means throwing by wrapping one's arm around the neck.   In Koshi-guruma, we do not wrap an arm around the neck.  Properly, the position of the arm is around the shoulder, close to, but not actually around the neck.  

    In Kubi-nage, it is often the case where one leg is extended behind uke's leg.   In Koshi-guruma, the feet are together.  The essential part of the Koshi-guruma is how one's hip (koshi) is positioned relative to uke's body.   The hip should be extended, with knees bent, so that tori's hips are significantly under uke's body, farther than is typical of an o-goshi.   If tori has only one leg extended behind uke's leg, it is probably going to be a kubi-nage, and if tori's arm is also around uke's neck, it is almost definitely a kubi-nage.
    This feels like the good old judo forum all over again. Very Happy


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