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    Something I don't like about Judo...

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    sydvicious

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    Something I don't like about Judo...

    Post by sydvicious on Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:17 pm

    I've been enjoying Judo for just over two years now. I always feel like I'm making very little progress, but if I look back to when I started, I must say I'm rather pleased with what I've achieved so far. I couldn't be more pleased about my club and my coaches.

    But there is one thing I picked up in these two years that bugs me a bit (and it's also the only thing). To me, the Judo community can be very elitist and I find it quite frustrating, more than anything else.
    There has been many times where I would ask about a technique, either in training or on a forum, only to get a condescending "you shouldn't be focussing on that now" response. I always wonder if people realise how deflating it is to get such a response. If I ask about a technique, it doesn't mean I'm focussing all my time on it. Here you are, still relatively new to the game, full of enthusiasm and with a couple of words it's all squashed and you're made to feel like a small child who has been told to go away and play with the other small children.
    I have posted about techniques on this forum as well and got very similar responses. I get that there is a syllabus, but it doesn't mean that you are forbidden to try out the "higher" techniques.

    I also notice it in general as well. It is very difficult for me to explain, but when I read the forums (not just this one), it always seems like many posters look down their noses at others. It is mainly when said poster is highly ranked/experienced. It's almost like they feel their word is law and everyone else is just here to make up the numbers.

    This is not directed at anyone in particular. There are many high ranked posters who's input means a lot to me and I take a lot from.
    It is just something that I noticed in general. Maybe it is because of the rank system?

    It would be interesting to find out if others feel the same.

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    Jihef

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    Re: Something I don't like about Judo...

    Post by Jihef on Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:29 am

    sydvicious wrote:It is just something that I noticed in general. Maybe it is because of the rank system?

    It would be interesting to find out if others feel the same.
    Hi Syd,
    you should take it with a grain of salt.

    Judo is a hard art to master, and the BASICS are really important. So focusing on them while learning is not about snubbery, but about building a strong foundation to your judo.

    Trust your elders.


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    JudoStu

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    Re: Something I don't like about Judo...

    Post by JudoStu on Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:57 am

    sydvicious wrote:I've been enjoying Judo for just over two years now. I always feel like I'm making very little progress, but if I look back to when I started, I must say I'm rather pleased with what I've achieved so far. I couldn't be more pleased about my club and my coaches.

    But there is one thing I picked up in these two years that bugs me a bit (and it's also the only thing). To me, the Judo community can be very elitist and I find it quite frustrating, more than anything else.
    There has been many times where I would ask about a technique, either in training or on a forum, only to get a condescending "you shouldn't be focusing on that now" response. I always wonder if people realise how deflating it is to get such a response. If I ask about a technique, it doesn't mean I'm focusing all my time on it. Here you are, still relatively new to the game, full of enthusiasm and with a couple of words it's all squashed and you're made to feel like a small child who has been told to go away and play with the other small children.
    I have posted about techniques on this forum as well and got very similar responses. I get that there is a syllabus, but it doesn't mean that you are forbidden to try out the "higher" techniques.

    I also notice it in general as well. It is very difficult for me to explain, but when I read the forums (not just this one), it always seems like many posters look down their noses at others. It is mainly when said poster is highly ranked/experienced. It's almost like they feel their word is law and everyone else is just here to make up the numbers.

    This is not directed at anyone in particular. There are many high ranked posters who's input means a lot to me and I take a lot from.
    It is just something that I noticed in general. Maybe it is because of the rank system?

    It would be interesting to find out if others feel the same.

    Often the written word is taken in the spirit of the person reading it and not the person writing it, if that makes sense? For example, I wrote a post a few months ago on the BJA facebook page and because I used the word "smashed" to describe what happened in randori I got absolutely taken apart by some of the most senior Judoka in the BJA telling me I knew nothing about Judo and that maybe Judo wasn't for me etc. How did that make me feel? Pretty small I can tell you. I deleted my post and haven't written any posts on there since.

    As for why some senior Judoka do this, I have no idea. I do however agree that if a white belt comes on here and asks a question about how he can copy Iliadis or Riner then I would probably tell them there are more important things to worry about

    Anyway keep training Syd and keep asking questions.


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    Neil G

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    Re: Something I don't like about Judo...

    Post by Neil G on Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:36 am

    I hear you, Syd. There are definitely people like that both online and IRL in the judo community. OTOH there are cases where the advice from the senior is spot-on but the junior takes it the wrong way.

    Online discussion forums like this one pretty much fly in the face of traditional martial arts. If we were to follow protocol here, the answer to every question should be either "ask your sensei" or "find a sensei, then ask him". That would make for pretty boring discussion.

    Keep asking questions, keep an open mind, keep a thick skin.
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    BillC

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    Re: Something I don't like about Judo...

    Post by BillC on Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:14 am

    sydvicious wrote:

    It would be interesting to find out if others feel the same.

    Syd, I wouldn't worry about asking that right now ... you are not ready and don't have the experience to understand the answer ... just go do 500 uchikomi.


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    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Something I don't like about Judo...

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:58 am

    BillC wrote:
    sydvicious wrote:

    It would be interesting to find out if others feel the same.

    Syd, I wouldn't worry about asking that right now ... you are not ready and don't have the experience to understand the answer ... just go do 500 uchikomi.

    Make sure you do plenty of ukemi too. And make those uchikomi static !


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    tafftaz

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    Re: Something I don't like about Judo...

    Post by tafftaz on Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:25 am

    BillC wrote:
    sydvicious wrote:

    It would be interesting to find out if others feel the same.

    Syd, I wouldn't worry about asking that right now ... you are not ready and don't have the experience to understand the answer ... just go do 500 uchikomi.


    Laughing I love you Bill Laughing

    On the flip side of Syd's post. I have a Russian who has trained with us from a beginner. He is now shodan, and not a very good one. Built like a tank and a nice guy.
    However as a low kyu grade he would constantly come into class and try out techniques he had seen on the internet. Not always from judo either. He injured a few people before I could get it through to him that he was only to use the waza that he had been taught and could perform correctly. The problem was that his English was very poor and communication was a nightmare. His English is great now and that is also down to his judo practise as he does not interact with anyone outside of his family and the judo club friends he has made.
    Best one was he wanted to learn a flying armbar. He is 110kgs. Not going to happen I told him until he could demonstrate proper control with other more basic techniques.

    Gus

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    Re: Something I don't like about Judo...

    Post by Gus on Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:28 am

    sydvicious wrote:I've been enjoying Judo for just over two years now. I always feel like I'm making very little progress, but if I look back to when I started, I must say I'm rather pleased with what I've achieved so far. I couldn't be more pleased about my club and my coaches.

    But there is one thing I picked up in these two years that bugs me a bit (and it's also the only thing). To me, the Judo community can be very elitist and I find it quite frustrating, more than anything else.
    There has been many times where I would ask about a technique, either in training or on a forum, only to get a condescending "you shouldn't be focussing on that now" response. I always wonder if people realise how deflating it is to get such a response. If I ask about a technique, it doesn't mean I'm focussing all my time on it. Here you are, still relatively new to the game, full of enthusiasm and with a couple of words it's all squashed and you're made to feel like a small child who has been told to go away and play with the other small children.
    I have posted about techniques on this forum as well and got very similar responses. I get that there is a syllabus, but it doesn't mean that you are forbidden to try out the "higher" techniques.

    I also notice it in general as well. It is very difficult for me to explain, but when I read the forums (not just this one), it always seems like many posters look down their noses at others. It is mainly when said poster is highly ranked/experienced. It's almost like they feel their word is law and everyone else is just here to make up the numbers.

    This is not directed at anyone in particular. There are many high ranked posters who's input means a lot to me and I take a lot from.
    It is just something that I noticed in general. Maybe it is because of the rank system?

    It would be interesting to find out if others feel the same.

    I'm suspect Judo forum rankings and rankings in Judo in the real world often bear little relation. If you're just asking polite questions there's no excuse for snobbery and anyone who does behave like that doesnt know anything about Judo.
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    NBK

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    Re: Something I don't like about Judo...

    Post by NBK on Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:04 am

    It might be useful to look at it this way. Most martial arts have set kata and you only do those until someone decides you're ready to move beyond that particular kata. They tend to be very structured, very set piece.

    In most martial arts you'd be thought presumptuous, if not silly, to ask about a triple spin backfist when you're still learning how to make a fist.

    But the nature of judo is that it has more latitude, and randori starts so early on, that you can try most anything at any time - not effectively, usually, but there is that possibility.

    There is supposed to be a method to the approach that focuses on certain movements that are not only useful but provide critical basic skills that will carry over into more complex movements. Not everyone gets the sequence or the instructions right, but ideally there is a method to the pedantry.

    Anyhow, take it with a grain of salt and keep it up.

    NBK
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    BillC

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    Re: Something I don't like about Judo...

    Post by BillC on Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:48 am

    NBK wrote:It might be useful to look at it this way.  Most martial arts have set kata and you only do those until someone decides you're ready to move beyond that particular kata.  They tend to be very structured, very set piece.  

    In most martial arts you'd be thought presumptuous, if not silly, to ask about a triple spin backfist when you're still learning how to make a fist.  

    But the nature of judo is that it has more latitude, and randori starts so early on, that you can try most anything at any time - not effectively, usually, but there is that possibility.  

    There is supposed to be a method to the approach that focuses on certain movements that are not only useful but provide critical basic skills that will carry over into more complex movements.  Not everyone gets the sequence or the instructions right, but ideally there is a method to the pedantry.  

    Anyhow, take it with a grain of salt and keep it up.

    NBK

    Ditto.

    There are some pompous jerks out there who can't teach something because they can't do something themselves. Or who have no idea to explain how they do what they do. Or, sometimes ... as NBK indicates ... "sensei" has no plan and does not want to bother. So go do 500 uchikomi. "That's the way we always do it."

    Then again ... there's stuff that needs to come before other stuff. Some things are not safe without the proper prep. Just last weekend ... young instructor who loves a particular sodetsurikomi goshi that leaves the inexperienced uke's front hand flapping in the air ... shows it to a room of people he does not know, plenty of beginners ... sho' 'nuff broken collarbone about 10 minutes later in randori because a strong white belt tried it. A last minute caveat of "oh, by the way uke make sure to hold the sleeve" or "tori remember to let go of the sleeve" is going to be sufficient, only lots of controller practice and experience.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling
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    afulldeck

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    Re: Something I don't like about Judo...

    Post by afulldeck on Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:50 am

    BillC wrote:
    Ditto.

    There are some pompous jerks out there who can't teach something because they can't do something themselves.  Or who have no idea to explain how they do what they do.  Or, sometimes ... as NBK indicates ... "sensei" has no plan and does not want to bother.  So go do 500 uchikomi.  "That's the way we always do it."

    Then again ... there's stuff that needs to come before other stuff.  Some things are not safe without the proper prep.  Just last weekend ... young instructor who loves a particular sodetsurikomi goshi that leaves the inexperienced uke's front hand flapping in the air ... shows it to a room of people he does not know, plenty of beginners ... sho' 'nuff broken collarbone about 10 minutes later in randori because a strong white belt tried it.  A last minute caveat of "oh, by the way uke make sure to hold the sleeve" or "tori remember to let go of the sleeve" is going to be sufficient, only lots of controller practice and experience.


    Bad outcome, but a good example of bad instruction.

    There are some wonderful true instructors in Judo, but there are more than a few instructors who could stand taking an apprenticeship in teaching. Teaching is a skill much different than just doing. Teaching requires the instructor to understand the prerequisites required, the correct staging of technique and to look for minor or major changes that might be required to work for the individual students. "Do as I do" example is only the bluntest of teaching methods that works for some, but hardly the gold standard. On the other hand, great instructors have a way of conveying the substance of the matter, even if they no longer can do it themselves because they have spent years in the trenches and they know how it feels, what it should look like, how it unfolds and can smell it in the air:-) .


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    NittyRanks

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    Re: Something I don't like about Judo...

    Post by NittyRanks on Sat Nov 01, 2014 5:56 am

    I see this all the time in Martial Arts. There was one Judo instructor most of the time that was like this, they don't know I have twenty years experience in another form of Martial Arts then they do in Judo. Most people are not stupid, you don't have to know the Martial Arts to know if you are being abused or not. It is also frustrating when people can't walk the walk and talk the talk.

    GregW

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    Re: Something I don't like about Judo...

    Post by GregW on Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:36 pm

    There are also safety factors to consider. An instructor or senior club member may be concerned that a new student may try some technique he saw on the Internet or learned from some non-judo source. The question about the technique is often the student putting his toe in the water to see if he might be able to try it out. The instructor and senior club members may discourage untimely interest in a technique because of the potential for injury.

    At my first shiai, I saw several people do tomoenage. I was a white belt and I was testing for yellow that day. I had not learned the throw yet. But it looked easy enough to try. In my second match, I threw a guy for ippon with it. After I left the mat happy that I had won, my sensei chewed me out for trying a throw he had not taught me. I realize now it was because, when I teach a throw now, I teach the safety aspects of it. I teach the students how certain mistakes can make a throw dangerous if they do it wrong. Like my sensei did, I tell my students to not use any technique that I didn't expressly teach them, unless I know they learned it from a legitimate source (i.e., from a coach at another club, a camp, etc.)

    It's not elitism. With rare exceptions, we all have to get up the next day and go to work or school. We need to train safely and not kill each other. The instructor has to balance liability, probability of injury, and the enthusiam of the students.
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    sydvicious

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    Re: Something I don't like about Judo...

    Post by sydvicious on Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:46 am

    GregW wrote:There are also safety factors to consider.  An instructor or senior club member may be concerned that a new student may try some technique he saw on the Internet or learned from some non-judo source.  The question about the technique is often the student putting his toe in the water to see if he might be able to try it out.  The instructor and senior club members may discourage untimely interest in a technique because of the potential for injury.  

    At my first shiai, I saw several people do tomoenage.  I was a white belt and I was testing for yellow that day.  I had not learned the throw yet.  But it looked easy enough to try.  In my second match, I threw a guy for ippon with it.  After I left the mat happy that I had won, my sensei chewed me out for trying a throw he had not taught me.  I realize now it was because, when I teach a throw now, I teach the safety aspects of it.  I teach the students how certain mistakes can make a throw dangerous if they do it wrong.  Like my sensei did, I tell my students to not use any technique that I didn't expressly teach them, unless I know they learned it from a legitimate source (i.e., from a coach at another club, a camp, etc.)

    It's not elitism.  With rare exceptions, we all have to get up the next day and go to work or school.  We need to train safely and not kill each other.  The instructor has to balance liability, probability of injury, and the enthusiam of the students.

    I completely agree that you need to take the safety aspect into concideration. But that is why I, and I'm sure most people, ask about it first before trying it. I should also make it clear that my original most was not just about techniques, but Judo in general. People can be very dismissive and holier-than-though, especially on forums. I've been involved in many sports/activities in my life and it is only in Judo that I've experienced this.
    But like I said, I still like Judo and it hasn't deterred me at all.


    tafftaz

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    Re: Something I don't like about Judo...

    Post by tafftaz on Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:43 am

    Been in judo for nearly 30 yrs and never experienced any kind of snobbery. Elitism maybe, but I have also seen the same thing in rugby and football.
    While some high dan ranks post on a forum it does not mean a thing in real life. Yes the tips and advice they give online might be well meaning or condescending, but it is your sensei who knows your judo best.
    If you worry about what people say on a forum, then just don't ask for their opinion.

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