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    noboru

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    Zen and Judo

    Post by noboru on Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:54 pm

    arcticle Zen and Judo By zen master Prof. Masunaga Reiho
    Source:
    http://www.zenki.com/index.php?lang=en&page=Masunaga03

    Zen and Judo
    By zen master Prof. Masunaga Reiho
    From Zen for Daily Living by Prof. Masunaga Reiho, Page 25, Shunjusha Pablishing Co., 1964.

    1. Body-Mind Training
    Growing interest in Zen and Judo has gone along with the so-called Japan boom in the West. While superficially quite different, Zen and Judo are essentially similar. Judo is the art of using one's strength, both physical and mental, with maximum effectiveness. Through practice in offensive and defensive tactics, it helps the trainee realize the full potentialities of his body and mind. The successful trainee gains an insight into his true self and emerges with a desire to work for social good. To reach this stage is the ultimate goal of Judo.

    This goal jibes with the two ideals of Kodokan Judo to make the most effective use of one's energy and to contribute to the mutual growth of oneself and others. These ideals focus the trainee's effort toward helping others to achieve the same joy-bringing growth. Kodokan Judo differs from the Jujutsu of ancient Japan. Traditional Jujutsu featured many tricks whose purpose was to maim opponent. It was also something of a show put on for paying customers. Jigoro Kano, the founder of Kodokan Judo, changed all this. After studying various ancient Jujutsu schools, he picked out the best techniques and systematized them. Kano did not limit his aim merely to a contest to determine victory or defeat. He made body-mind training an integral part of his system.

    2. Kodokan Judo
    Though derived from the Jikishin School, the word "Judo" takes in more than the technical. Kodokan Judo, of course, teaches technique, but its main emphasis falls on "do" - the way to self-realization.

    It aims primarily at experiencing the "way." In the process the Judoka enjoys a sport and sharpens his ability for self-defense.

    In 1890, Kano was sailing back to Japan from Europe. While crossing the Indian Ocean, he was, through a misunderstanding, challenged to a fight by a huge Russian on board. As the fight began, the Russian tried to grab Kano in a bear hug. Kano, seeing an opening, twisted around and threw his opponent with Ogoshi (one of the Judo hip throws).

    The Russian arched overhead, seemingly toward a headfirst landing on the deck. But Kana kept a firm grip on his opponent's wrist and brought him down on his feet. The spectators were impressed not only by the well-timed throw but also by the cushioning of the fall. The Russian shook Kano's hand. They parted good friend. This episode underscores the Judo ideals of strength fully used and of mutual growth.

    3. Art of Falling
    Learning in Judo begins with ukemi - the art of falling. By practicing ukemi the trainee learns to fall safely no matter how he may be thrown. At the same time, he builds up his own confidence and deepens his interest in Judo.

    Next, the trainee learns the art of throwing. He develops an under- standing of how to use his strength most effectively. By constant practice he begins to master the various ways to break his opponent's balance and make a throw. A throw, it is said, must be practiced 3,000 times before it can become effective.

    Judo mat-work, although not too popular these days, must also be practiced. It is just as important to the mastery of Judo as the art of throwing. The two go together like the two wheels of a cart.

    In working out with an opponent, the Judo trainee should move relaxed and tryout his newly learned techniques without hesitation. He must act positively: when thrown, he should break his fall, arise immediately, and resume the attack. To test his strength, the trainee should occasionally take part in Judo tournaments.

    Quite often, a new set of attitudes develops as a result of this training.

    The trainee may find himself:

    More relaxed in any situation.
    Convinced of the need for learning from a good teacher.
    More eager to practice techniques as taught.
    Less tempted to try "dirty" tricks.
    More sensitive to opening in the opponent's defenses while less concerned about one's own.
    Always poised to make effective use of the opponent's strength.
    Accustomed to silence and calmness, and
    Naturally disposed toward simplicity and cleanliness.
    Judo training, in short, stimulates courage and freedom of action, teaches constant awareness and resourcefulness, and helps develop respect for human dignity and tempers body and mind for vital social action. With flexibility and grace, or in the words of an ancient text, like a shadow following an object, the Judoka quietly does his part of the world's work.

    4. Relation with Zen
    In Tokugawa Japan, master swordsmen like Yagyi Tajima-no-Kami and Miyamoto Musashi studied Zen to learn the innermost secret of swordsmanship. They often took up Zen training under famous masters. Some, after the usual round of sharp criticism and psycho-physical discipline, managed to gain enlightenment. A similar relationship holds for Judo and Zen.

    Gaining of full Zen enlightenment does not differ from experiencing the ultimate meaning in Judo. In this way, both Zen and Judo trainee come upon the truth of life. Through intensive training they experience what it is to know coolness and warmth for oneself. As Dogen has said, Training enfolds enlightenment. Enlightenment dwells within training, and training takes place within enlightenment.

    5. Hardship Necessary
    One cannot know anything deeply or experience it completely with out undergoing some hardship. While Zen has been called the comfortable entrance, it is actually not so easy. The trainee usually gets up early in the morning to practice zazen (cross-legged sitting). During sesshin (the special training period), he does zazen for seven days. Cold and sleepiness disturb him, and his feet and legs begin to hurt. Usual monastery routine demands that the trainees sweep the garden in the morning and do zazen again in the evening.

    Similarly, Judo has its special training period-kangeiko (winter practice) and doyogeiko (summer practice). Having gone through both kangeiko and Zen training, I can vouch for the fact that neither is easy. But only through disciplined practice without regard for heat and cold the trainee can gain an inkling of what a total experience means in Zen or Judo. You don't learn swimming by practicing on the tatami.

    6. Relaxed Mind
    Both Zen and Judo grow out of the self-identity of body and mind. To train the body and mind in Zen the emphasis falls on letting go in the truly existential sense. Dogen, it is said, transmitted the relaxed mind from China "Relaxed" of course does not mean "soft". It means breaking free from the tyranny of the ego and penetrating to the not self or the Self. Freed even from the desire for enlightenment, one understands finally what makes the world tick.

    In Judo, too, the body and mind are relaxed. There is no burning desire to win. The Zen insight into the non-duality of body and mind dwells at the center of Judo. A Zen-calmed mind expresses itself in integrated action. Full function of body-mind leaves no opening.

    A lion, it is said, uses his full effort to catch a rabbit. The same is applied to Judo. One throws, holds, and wrestles going all out, but without strain. The body shifts immediately to adjust to changes in time and place. Those with Judo sense escape injury in usually dangerous falls. They can take care of themselves with ease against violence.

    So Judo goes beyond mere self-defense. It builds up character and leads to responsible freedom. Harmonizing with nature, Judo stresses effortless action. Similarly, Zen respects the natural order of things. One's every day mind is itself the way is a well-known Zen expression.

    7. No Aftermath
    Just as the bird in the sky and the fish in the water leave no traces of their passing, Judo leaves no aftermath. The breaks are clean. In Judo as in Zen, when awareness is full, every action embodies vital freedom. The great masters of Zen and Judo move along the same path of no-hindrance.

    The Zen trainee understands "no-hindrance" primarily through zazen in upright sitting and rhythmic breathing. This training method strikes most Westerners as rather strange. But it corresponds to the throws practiced 3,000 times in Judo. Both Zen and Judo, therefore, put their basic emphasis on ultimate freedom and creativity. The Zen trainee not only must absorb all that the master has to teach but also must excel him. The trainee has to transcend his teacher. This, as Prof. Eugene Herrigel has said in his Zen and the Art of Archery, means, to climb on the shoulders of one's teacher. Judo also has many creative aspects, least subtly perhaps in the development of new techniques. It too uses form to wean man away from enslavement to form.

    When fully experienced, Zen and Judo help replace illusion with insight. They give us a fresh approach to the terms of the world. Previously routine activities then take life, and we find the buried wisdom in what seems at first glance to be the least rewarding of Zen sayings, Every day is a good day: every hour is good hour.

    8. Zen and Sports
    The spirit of Zen is not only important for Judo but for all sports. Zen puts stress on living fully in the moment, and this mood is necessary to all sports. Both Zen and sports also emphasize training (the so-called sport samadhi), observance of rules, learning from masters, and objective excellence. Other similarities include their common stress on attention to details, grace of movement, and growing by participation. While perhaps less evident in some sports than in Zen, is not the ultimate aim of both freedom from obsession to defeat and victory? The Zen of sport and the sport of Zen can both lead to more meaningful living.

    NBK

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by NBK on Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:40 am

    Interesting - thanks.

    Here is a description of Professor Masunaga.
    http://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/masunaga.html

    NBK

    Anatol

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by Anatol on Thu Nov 27, 2014 1:40 am

    Nice read but



    The central principle of Judo is daoist: Seiryoku zenyo  und Ju no Ri.

    Central to Judo is Daoism, next for sure Confucianism and peripher maybe Zen Buddhism.


    If you are a Zen Buddhist, you read all through a lense of Zen Buddhism ;-)





    .

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:24 am

    Anatol wrote:Nice read but



    The central principle of Judo is daoist: Seiryoku zenyo  und Ju no Ri.

    Central to Judo is Daoism, next for sure Confucianism and peripher maybe Zen Buddhism.


    If you are a Zen Buddhist, you read all through a lense of Zen Buddhism ;-)





    .



    _________________
    Falling for Judo Since 1980

    Anatol

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by Anatol on Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:28 am

    Hi Ben

    無 = wu is completly daoist, originated from Laozi und Zhuangzi.


    Central terms in classic Daoism (Laozi and Zhuangzi) are:

    wu ming (no name, not naming)
    wu you (no desire)
    wu si ( no self)
    wu wei (not acting - but nothing is let undone)
    wu xin ( no heartmind, consciousness)
    wu zhi (no knowledge)
    bu shi fei (not this not that)
    wu zheng ( no dispute/quarrel)

    wu ji (ultimateless; boundless; infinite)


    It's only that in a long developement of Buddhism in China daoist terms became to Buddhist terms, and Chan (Zen) was heavily influenced be Zhuangzi Daoism, so there are sometimes confusions between Zen und Zhuangzi Daoism.

    "Ju" (softness, flexibility) is central for Daoism also "not to waste energy and use energy from nature to go with nature" and have a long life (yang sheng).

    "Ziran" Naturalness und "Pu" Simplicity is also from Daoism.



    Mifune in his teaching and understanding and practicing of Judo was Daoist - but not in his behavior ;-)

    Kano was a Confucianist, concentrating on self perfection, moral perfection and contributing to society.



    .

    NBK

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by NBK on Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:10 am

    Kano shihan wrote that his idea for kangeiko and shochugeiko came (at least in part) from seeing the daily austere, aesthetic training of young men at a famous Buddhist temple near Ueno in Tokyo when a young man. I'm still trying to find the entire training curriculum (even the head temple today claims they don't know the full story anymore) but he outlined their shugyô 修行.

    What is interesting is that the trainees were not all, if any, meant to become priests, but rather were trained to better themselves and to better contribute to society.

    I recently found an obscure essay by Kano shihan explaining the relationship between a long dead political leader and his Confucian / Chinese studies instructor 漢学者 / political advisor. It is remarkable in that every other one of Kano shihan's writings regarding individuals that I can recall are memorials of people he knew personally. In this case they both lived well before Kano was born (1860) so he clearly read their history and scholarly works to comment in detail, approvingly, on them.

    Anatol

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by Anatol on Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:58 am

    Hi NBK

    Its really a pitty, that people dont read the Laozi - especially Judokas (cause of Ju and Do)


    Two further chapters about "ju":


    Daodejing 43

    The softest, most pliable thing in the world
    runs roughshod over the firmest things in the world.
    that which has no substance
    gets into that which has no spaces or cracks.

    I therefore know that there is benefit in taking no action.
    The wordless teaching, the benefit of taking no action—
    Few in the world can realize these!


    Daodejing 76

    When people are born, they're supple and soft;
    When they die, they end up stretched out firm and rigid;

    When the ten thousand things and grasses and trees are alive, they're supple and pliant;
    When they're dead, they're withered and dried out.

    Therefore we say that the firm and rigid are compassions of death,
    While the supple, the soft, the weak, and the delicate are compassions of life.

    If a soldier is rigid, he won't win;
    If a tree is rigid, it will come to its end.

    Rigidity and power occupy the inferior position;
    Suppleness, softness, weakness, and delicateness occupy the superior position.



    (transl. by Robert Henricks, Mawangdui Scriptures)





    Gus

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by Gus on Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:44 pm

    Really nice to see someone making this kind of post ! I find I my Judo practice is quite similar to the ideas described. Of course such ideas might have popped up in many different religions and spiritual beliefs (the elephant in the dark room etc etc).

    Anatol

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by Anatol on Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:36 am

    Hi Gus

    There is no "ju" in Zen Buddhism.

    NBK

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by NBK on Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:14 am

    Anatol wrote:Hi Gus

    There is no "ju" in Zen Buddhism.
    Hi, Anatol.

    A couple of questions.

    You wrote that Mifune sensei was Daoist in his practice but not his conduct - care to explain?

    Also, if Ch'an / Zen Buddhism was greatly influenced by Zhuangzi Daoism, any ideas why ju 柔 is not a part of Zen?

    Thanks
    NBK

    Gus

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by Gus on Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:26 am

    Anatol wrote:Hi Gus

    There is no "ju" in Zen Buddhism.

    Hi Anatol. Is this quote correct ?

    The philosophy of Judo comes from the Zen Buddhist teaching of a world of harmony, peace, and love, or in other words, an absolute state of existence. Self and the universe are in one body. At that time, self and others fuse into one.

    Jigoro Kano
    Source: Kodokan Judo

    I dont know it could easily be a misquote seeing as it was online - but its attributed to Kano on this link :

    http://www.mtnstmjudo.com/Mountain_Storm_Martial_Arts/Judo.html

    If incorrect they should take it down I guess.
    I know that I resonate with a lot of the principles mentioned in the original post I am also a great fan of the Dao De Jing and can see how many of its principles could be applied to Judo. If Zen Buddhism in Japan was heavily influenced by Taosim that would explain a a few things. All in all the most interesting discussion I've read on this forum in a while.

    NBK

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by NBK on Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:52 pm

    Gus wrote:
    Anatol wrote:Hi Gus

    There is no "ju" in Zen Buddhism.

    Hi Anatol. Is this quote correct ?

    The philosophy of Judo comes from the Zen Buddhist teaching of a world of harmony, peace, and love, or in other words, an absolute state of existence. Self and the universe are in one body. At that time, self and others fuse into one.

    Jigoro Kano
    Source: Kodokan Judo

    I dont know it could easily be a misquote seeing as it was online - but its attributed to Kano on this link :

    http://www.mtnstmjudo.com/Mountain_Storm_Martial_Arts/Judo.html

    If incorrect they should take it down I guess.
    I know that I resonate with a lot of the principles mentioned in the original post I am also a great fan of the Dao De Jing and can see how many of its principles could be applied to Judo. If Zen Buddhism in Japan was heavily influenced by Taosim that would explain a a few things. All in all the most interesting discussion I've read on this forum in a while.
    I glanced at my copy of 'Kodokan Judo' by Kano Jigoro (assuming they meant the English version published by Kodokan 1986).  

    There's nothing like that in it I can find.  (Also, Kano shihan didn't really write it at all - it was edited by a committee of near a dozen senior Kodokan jûdô instructors, including a number of women.)  

    Kano shihan never wrote about Zen Buddhism that I know.  He seldom mentioned religion as such - there's another thread or two in this forum regarding what he did write.

    NBK


    Last edited by NBK on Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:11 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : corrected 'managed' to read 'mentioned'.... accursed iPhone....)

    Anatol

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by Anatol on Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:45 pm

    Hi NBK


    NBK wrote: You wrote that Mifune sensei was Daoist in his practice but not his conduct - care to explain?
    As I mentioned I am not a Judo Historian but Mifune Sensei in his practice was influenced by ideas of "simplicity" and "naturalness" and focused an "sei ryoku zenyo" (spirit energy good use). Three observations: First are the videos on youtube. Minimal Movement, balance, footwork, working in all directions, using energy of his own and uke, awareness of whats going on and not what he wants to do and so on. Second he explained his invention of Sumi Otoshi as a throw as an ideal, where he literally wants "to do nothing", an absolute minimum of using energy but "nothing is left undone (wu wei) and its pure beauty, because the simplest things are often pure. Third he wrote a poem of free practice, which you only can write, if you understand "naturalness" and "simplicity" Mifune: "In time of practice, without distraction, light in heart and light in limb. Let us endeavor with full attention, to concentrate our mind within. Trained through practice to perfection, skilled in the art of rise and fall. ... freely moving like a ball." And you can only practice without distraction and light in heart if you have a calm and clear spirit. The more "confucian things" I heard are, that Mifune sensei gave a lot on ranks and hierarchy and pride and vanity but you as a Judo Historian know much better. Maybe I am wrong.


    Also, if Ch'an / Zen Buddhism was greatly influenced by Zhuangzi Daoism, any ideas why ju 柔  is not a part of Zen?
    Buddhism as an indian philosophy is very concentrated on"truth" and epistimolgy (and also an numbers). Chinese philosophy is concentrated an practice and ethics and through daoism on nature. When Buddhism came to China, Buddhism was a strange philosophy to chinese because of its lack to social and ethical themes like confucianism. But Buddhism had some same ideas like Zhuangzi Daoism like scepticism, realtivism, critics on language and also unity and the ideas of "wu" like not naming, not this and that, no knowledge, not acting, no desire, no mind, a calm and clear spirt  etc. As Daoism was genuin to China, chinese Buddhism as "Chan Buddhism" blend with Zhuangzi Daoism in four ways:  Chan Buddhism used the terms from Daoism, concentrated on practice, naturalness (ziran) and simplicity (pu) and they were sceptical on namings, words and concepts. Additional they had a new relationship to Nature, which is really new for Buddhism. Why is there no "Ju" in Zenbuddhism? Daoist  thinking is influenced by Yin/Yang School but in Laozi and Zhuangzi there is more "yin" than "yang". The reason is, because mans behavior cause of living and acting is Yang orientated and Daoist say, that you should do less with desire, thinking, planing and go a natural course in blend with nature - not against nature. You should not waste energy for ranks and power and desire and go for simplicity and naturalness. But opposing to Chan Buddhism Yang and Yin are only two sides of ultimate reality (Dao) and they are interfering in multiple ways. So wether Yin nor Yang is bad or good in itself, you need both to be complete. Zen Buddhism is concentrated on learning, developement, perfection to find/realise the ultimate truth and you have to practice a lot and in formal ways and the feminine isn't in high praise. "Ju" as soft, weak, flexible is central for Daoists like Laozi and Zhuangzi, as a natural adjustment to humans yang behavior.

    .

    Anatol

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by Anatol on Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:17 pm

    Hi Gus


    Gus wrote: I know that I resonate with a lot of the principles mentioned in the original post I am also a great fan of the Dao De Jing and can see how many of its principles could be applied to Judo.
    I try to resonate some core principles of Daoism in Judo:

    naturalness (ziran)
    simplicity (pu)
    soft, weak, flexible (rou = ju)
    yin yang (in multiple interferes)
    no mind (wu xin, jap. mushin)
    a calm and clear spirit (jing qing shen)
    Virtue and Skill (de)

    But most times maybe its only my 260 lbs, which completes the throw and holds the pin or even my balance ...

    There is a good link with many Dao De Jing translations (more than 100 in english) to compare the differencies and commonalities.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20120618160326/http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/_IndexTTK.html


    They are at different standards and levels and the most published like Mitchell can be misleading.

    A good translation of a philosophic work in short phrases from traditional chinese to modern english is a masterpiece.


    Last edited by Anatol on Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Kaji

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by Kaji on Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:47 pm

    Thanks, noboru, for the interesting read! And also the subsequent input by the other posters.

    In relation to whether Judo is associated with Buddhism or Daoism, allow me to share the below.

    Firstly, the three major schools of thoughts in Chinese philosophy have a lot in common, depicted in my attempt at a Venn diagram below:


    There are concepts shared by two of those schools. There are also things common to all three schools. Note that is only a conventional way of looking at the three schools.

    Now how do they all relate to Judo? Well, it is as simple as adding a fourth circle into the above diagram:


    Yes, Anatol, Judo has a lot of Daoist principles. However, it also shares a lot with Buddhism.

    Just to reflect on a few points made in the above posts...

    "無 = wu" is a concept crucial to Buddhism's core teachings, in particular the notion of dependent arising and the nature of things being empty of an inherent self. Just count the number of times that character 無 has appeared in the Chinese version of the Heart Sutra. (OK, I've counted it for you - 21 out of a total of 260 characters in the short sutra.)

    Chan/Zen is a tradition of Buddhism that was started by the Buddha Sakyamuni himself, passed to one of his disciples Mahākāśyapa as the first lineage holder after the Buddha. What you may find in sources such as Wikipedia, that the Chan/Zen school was founded in China, is not accurate. Daoism, and other aspects of the Chinese culture, might have influenced the way Chan/Zen Buddhists practised and taught. However, the core concepts of Chan/Zen have always been there. What may be just as likely (or even more likely) is Buddhism having influenced Daoism... It would not be surprising to find both schools having affected Judo in some way.

    Ju is also an important concept in Mahayana Buddhism, though expressed with different terms. It is called upāya, or expedient means in English, or in Chinese 方便. Upāya is essential to anyone walking the bodhisattva path in the pursuit towards benefiting all beings in the world. (Sounds familiar in Judo?)

    自然 ziran is indeed a concept central to Daoist teachings, but it is also there in Buddhism. The term used there is 隨緣 sui yuan.

    All three Chinese schools of thoughts are big on self perfection, moral perfection and contributing to society. Judo very nicely share these principles.

    In conclusion, Judo does share a lot of common ideas with Buddhism, or Zen Buddhism if you will. Judo shares a lot of things with many things. They don't need to be mutually exclusive. For example, I can just as well make a list of how Judo in many aspects is an application of psychology. That doesn't stop Judo from being an application of, say, physics.

    Anatol

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by Anatol on Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:05 am

    Hi Kaji


    Kaji wrote:
    Firstly, the three major schools of thoughts in Chinese philosophy have a lot in common ...
    They merge, when Song Confucianism tried to absorb Buddhism and Daoism and introduced the idea of "san jiao yi" = the three teachings are one. This is the main reason, why people think the three teachings share a lot. Before this time they were quite different, especially Daoism und Confucianism and Confucianism and Buddhism. Daoism is quite the opposite of confucianism as a classic teaching = Laozi and Zhuangzi. Confucianists were critizised in most every single idea on man and community.


    "無 = wu" is a concept crucial to Buddhism's core teachings, in particular the notion of dependent arising and the nature of things being empty of an inherent self. Just count the number of times that character 無 has appeared in the Chinese version of the Heart Sutra. (OK, I've counted it for you - 21 out of a total of 260 characters in the short sutra.)
    The Heart Sutra wasn't written before 7th century CE (see Nattier 1992), so it is no coincidence, the "wu" appeared a lot in the Heart Sutra, influenced from Laozi und Zhuangzi Daoism. "wu" appeares 19 times in the Laozi (81 short chapters) and is central in opposing the confucianist ideas of humanity (ren), justice (yi), moral and rites (li) with not naming, not acting (but nothing is left undone), no desire, no knowledge, no quarrel, no heartmind, not this and that, no name and fame and so on. The School of Neodaoist ("dark school" = xuan xue, 3rd century CE) especially Wang Bi, was fascinated on "wu" (no, nothing) and they opened the discussions with the Buddhists, because Buddhists take a lot of daoist terms to explain Buddhism in China, because Buddhism with its lack of ethic and social and family interest and focus on truth and epistemology was strange to chinese.




    Chan/Zen is a tradition of Buddhism that was started by the Buddha Sakyamuni himself, passed to one of his disciples Mahākāśyapa as the first lineage holder after the Buddha. What you may find in sources such as Wikipedia, that the Chan/Zen school was founded in China, is not accurate.
    Yes - thats the story from chinese Buddhist perspective and chinese really like to see their roots or the roots of their teachings in the "very past", because this is an old tradition starting with the Confucianists and the Daoists, Both teachings see the best man and society in the very past (gu) and in this time there were very wise man (sheng ren) and so on. Also if you have a new teaching you try to get "authority" via the past. But thats common for many teachings - look at taiji quan or the Habsburg Monarchy, which traces their ancestors to the roman empire ;-) There is no evidence, that Chan Buddhism or the Heart Sutra are not developed and written in China.



    Daoism, and other aspects of the Chinese culture, might have influenced the way Chan/Zen Buddhists practised and taught. However, the core concepts of Chan/Zen have always been there. What may be just as likely (or even more likely) is Buddhism having influenced Daoism... It would not be surprising to find both schools having affected Judo in some way.
    Some Schools of Daoism were/are influenced by Buddhism, because Buddhism was the dominant school in China for houndreds of years especially between 400 and 800. Then the Confucianists took other. What I am speaking of is "classic Daoism" of Laozi and Zhuangzi, which was  the intellectual  peak of Daoism. All core ideas were elaborated from Laozi and Zhuangzi and Daoism after that time was only ecclectic. There are no new ideas only some interesting interpreters like the confucianists Wang Bi (wu) and Guo Xiang (ziran).


    Ju is also an important concept in Mahayana Buddhism, though expressed with different terms. It is called upāya, or expedient means in English, or in Chinese 方便. Upāya is essential to anyone walking the bodhisattva path in the pursuit towards benefiting all beings in the world. (Sounds familiar in Judo?)
    Interesting read! But this "ju" is not the "ju" referring to "weak, flexible, pliant, soft" as a core principle for kuzushi ore strategies to fight. "Ju in that way refers more to "jita kyoei", which is a general principle of social and moral conduct and Judo has this principle in common with many other ideas of living and working together like scouts or christians or musicians. "Ju" as "the weak overcomes the strong and the flexible the hard" is daoist (see Laozi). "Ju" in Laozi is not only a single line - its a complex idea with multiple interference.


    自然 ziran is indeed a concept central to Daoist teachings, but it is also there in Buddhism. The term used there is 隨緣 sui yuan.
    Would you translate "sui yuan" with "following destiny/cause"? If destiny is "karma" - there is no "karma" in Daoism. Ziran as Naturalness is quite the opposite and means "Spontaneity". Like in randori. Following the course of nature has nothing to do with destiny.


    All three Chinese schools of thoughts are big on self perfection, moral perfection and contributing to society. Judo very nicely share these principles.
    Classic Daoism is quite sceptical on selfperfection  and moral perfection. They critizise the Confucianist for their obsession of morals, laws, rules and rites and say that you should not learn - you should forget and go back to naturalness and simplicity.

    In conclusion, Judo does share a lot of common ideas with Buddhism, or Zen Buddhism if you will. Judo shares a lot of things with many things. They don't need to be mutually exclusive. For example, I can just as well make a list of how Judo in many aspects is an application of psychology. That doesn't stop Judo from being an application of, say, physics.
    Thanks for your thoughts Kaji. Everyone can bring in his ideas and experience to Judo and that is great. I dont wont to see Judo through a lense of Daoism and in no way I want to start a discussion of supergood and very original Daoism and silly Confucianism and Buddhism. I only want to contribute with my knowledge of classic Daoism Zhuangzi and Laozi to look at the core ideas of Judo like "seiryoku zenyo" and "ju no ri" and maybe some strategies of "yin/yang" and some psychological aspects like "no heartmind" and a "calm and clear spirit", the content and their origin and their application to Judo.

    Thank you for getting involved to this discussion Kaji!




    P.S.: If there are some "rude notes" thats only my bad english and no intention.


    .


    Last edited by Anatol on Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

    NBK

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by NBK on Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:33 am

    There is nothing rude in your English so far, so no problem.

    This interaction exemplifies why I missed the old forum and particularly welcome back Kaji and Anatol.  

    CK is hiding out - it must hurt to not take on every single line.  He must have some paper in the works, as he has strong opinions on these matters, and otherwise would pitch in.

    If you want to get really complicated, consider Shinto in conjunction with judo.....

    wdax

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by wdax on Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:20 pm

    NBK wrote:(...) If you want to get really complicated, consider Shinto in conjunction with judo.....

    ... and then look deeply into religion and japanese politics between the restauration and the end of WW2.

    Anatol

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by Anatol on Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:26 pm

    Hi NBK

    If you want to get really complicated, consider Shinto in conjunction with judo.....
    Thats simple. I have my kami for every single fight - as long as it works, I stick to my kami ;-)

    Hi wdax!

    You wrote in your paper "Kodokan Judo" (which I do appreciate alot) about "Mu Shin - Isshin - Zanshin".

    There is a story in the Zhuangzi (written ca. 300 BCE)

    "The artisan Chui made things round (and square) more exactly than if he had used the circle and square. The operation of his fingers on (the forms of) things was like the transformations of them (in nature), and required no application of his mind; and so his Intelligence was entire and encountered no resistance. To be unthought of by the foot that wears it is the fitness of a shoe; to be unthought of by the waist is the fitness of a girdle. When one's wisdom does not think of the right or the wrong (of a question under discussion), that shows the suitability of the mind (for the question); when one is conscious of no inward change, or outward attraction, that shows the mastery of affairs. He who perceives at once the fitness, and never loses the sense of it, has the fitness that forgets all about what is fitting."

    http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/full-understanding-of-life#n2850


    Its only because Zen Buddhism is much better known than Classic Daoism.

    "Wu Xin" (no Heartmind) and "jingqing Shen" (calm and clear spirit) are central ideas in the Zhuangzi. But its more a thing of forgetting (wang) and Virtue and skill (De) and Unity (yi) with/in Dao to go to simplicity (pu) and naturalness and spontaneity (ziran) and to boundless (wuji).

    .


    Last edited by Anatol on Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:51 am; edited 2 times in total

    Anatol

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by Anatol on Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:49 am

    Hi NBK

    NBK wrote:

    CK is hiding out - it must hurt to not take on every single line.  He must have some paper in the works, as he has strong opinions on these matters, and otherwise would pitch in.
    I hope, that CK is sitting under a willow covered with snow and meditating over "ju" and writing a book on this subject. ;-)

    Anatol

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by Anatol on Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:16 am

    Maybe this is the "missing link" from Zhuangzi Daoism over Zen Buddhism to Kodokan Judo:


    Judo and Laozi:

    http://umjudo.com/JudoHistory/HistoryFive.htm


    Zen Buddhism and Judo

    Kano’s study of the Kito Ryu brought him into a philosophical system based on teachings of a Zen monk named Takuan. Takuan Soho had a tremendous influence on the development of martial philosophy in Japan, particularly his ideas of mushin ("no-mind") as an ideal of martial practice. When "the object of Judo is to understand and demonstrate swiftly the living laws of movement," as Kyuzo Mifune believed, this is a reflection of the Taoist underpinnings of the Kito Ryu. Indeed, Kito itself is one translation of the yin and yang, the passive and active components of being.

    Takuan Soho wrote the "Unfettered Mind"

    http://terebess.hu/zen/UnfetteredMind.pdf


    And yes: "mu shin" = "wu xin" 無心 is a core concept of the Zhuangzi in a broad and deep context with Dao 道 (Do = Way, Principle, Method).

    Even earlier than the Zhuangzi (or at the same time as the inner chapters) there is a daoist text the "nei ye" (300 BCE)

    http://www.indiana.edu/~p374/Inner_Enterprise.pdf

    with all the concepts of mushin, Qi, Dao, Sage, contemplation, cultivation, concentration, virtue et cetera.


    .

    noboru

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    about Mushin state -- Samurai spirit - part about Kyudo

    Post by noboru on Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:47 pm

    In the tv series Samurai spirit - part about Kyudo is very nice explanation and demonstration of Mushin state -from time 22:50


    Anatol

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by Anatol on Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:30 am

    Thanks noboru


    A link back from "mushin" to the Zhuangzi (written 300 - 160 BCE) "wu xin" = "no heart/mind" (no emotions and thoughts)



    A)

    Zhuangzi 19.4


    When an archer is shooting for nothing
    he has all his skill.
    If he shoots for a brass buckle
    he is already nervous.
    If he shoots for a prize of gold
    he goes blind
    or sees two targets
    - he is out of his mind!

    His skill has not changed. But the prize
    divides him. He cares.
    He thinks more of winning
    than of shooting
    and the need to win
    drains him of power.

    (transl. b. Merton)


    B)

    Zhuangzi 7.3


    The nameless man said,
    'Let your mind find its enjoyment in pure simplicity;
    blend yourself with (the primary) ether in idle indifference;
    allow all things to take their natural course;
    and admit no personal or selfish consideration


    C)

    Zhuangzi 4.2

    'I venture to ask what that fasting of the mind (xin) is,' said Hui, and Zhongni answered,

    'Maintain a perfect unity in every movement of your will. You will not wait for the hearing of your ears about it, but for the hearing of your mind. You will not wait even for the hearing of your mind, but for the hearing of the spirit. Let the hearing (of the ears) rest with the ears. Let the mind rest in the verification (of the rightness of what is in the will) [wu xin = mushin]. But the spirit is free from all pre-occupation and so waits for (the appearance of) things. Where the (proper) course is, there is freedom from all pre-occupation; such freedom is the fasting of the mind.'


    D)

    Zhuangzi 7.6

    When the wise man employs his mind, it is a mirror. It conducts nothing and anticipates nothing; it responds to (what is before it), but does not retain it. Thus he is able to deal successfully with all things, and injures none.


    .

    Anatol

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by Anatol on Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:41 pm

    "Ziran" 自然 (naturalness, sponteneity) und "Pu" 樸 (simplicity)


    are two core concepts of Classic Daoism. Combined with a calm and clear mind/spirit these are (at least to me) the underlyings of "sei ryoku zenyo" (spirit energy good use). As this thread is about "Judo and Zen" I was interested in the daoist sources of Zen Thinking. I came to some japanese aestetic concepts like shizen (naturalness) and kanso 簡素 (simplicity). "kanso" means "simple raw silk".

    In chapter 19 of the Laozi there is a sentence:

    見素
    抱樸

    Evince the plainness of raw silk,
    Embrace the simplicity of the unhewn wood


    Linked to Judo

    http://www.kanosociety.org/Bulletins/pdf%20bulletins/bulletinx24.pdf







    NBK

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    Re: Zen and Judo

    Post by NBK on Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:31 am

    Anatol wrote:"Ziran" 自然 (naturalness, sponteneity) und "Pu" 樸 (simplicity) are two core concepts of Classic Daoism. Combined with a calm and clear mind/spirit these are (at least to me) the underlyings of "sei ryoku zenyo" (spirit energy good use). As this thread is about "Judo and Zen" I was interested in the daoist sources of Zen Thinking. I came to some japanese aestetic concepts like shizen (naturalness) and kanso 簡素 (simplicity). "kanso" means "simple raw silk".

    In chapter 19 of the Laozi there is a sentence:

    見素
    抱樸

    Evince the plainness of raw silk,
    Embrace the simplicity of the unhewn wood

    Linked to Judo
    http://www.kanosociety.org/Bulletins/pdf%20bulletins/bulletinx24.pdf
    Excellent post, thank you for the info and the links to a very interesting article by two first class judoka, both serious researchers.

    Those posts should be read and digested.  

    A couple of minor points:

    The Kano Society Bulletin article says:
    Natural jūdōgi also still exit as traditional  true  handicraft.   Such
    jūdōgi will usually cost a lot more— typically about £2000....

    The term 'natural keikogi' apparently means one made from unbleached cotton (as cotton doesn't naturally assemble itself, other than to cling to other threads in a cotton boll.)   Bleached cotton, growing up on a cotton farm and having owned a few dozen cotton keikogi, is bleached early in the manufacturing process.

    Why is cotton bleached?  I guess primarily for stylistic sensibilities, and early on, to compete against bright, new synthetic threads.   But trust me, there's nothing natural about carded, pulled, steamed, combed etc cotton made into cotton thread, bleached or unbleached, other than the cotton itself.  

    I'm not sure the authors are advocating that the only 'true' judo keikogi are made from unbleached cotton, somehow linking that to Japanese sensibilities, but true it's a humble, marvelous material.  Bleaching it changes its properties a bit, but it isn't turning it into dross or gold thread.   And after a few year of the laundry, they pretty much look the

    I have any number of prewar judo books that describe in broad (sufficient?  not a tailor, I can barely sew on buttons....) detail how to make your young Taro-kun (a Japanese term for the typical young boy...) a suitable judo keikogi, with the materials at hand, which I assume would have been unbleached cotton duck or a similar material.  
    Also, I think that Kano shihan would have balked at (that's my diplomatic side - from my undiplomatic side, how about 'puked all over'?) the notion of spending such extravagant funds on a keikogi just because it's made of bleached cotton?  I need to recheck but I can't recall any of the numerous text I have with basic instructions to make a keikogi specifying ''unbleached cotton only'.  

    When does demanding such an indulgence (on a minor sidenote)  as using a non-standard cloth (when in a small village, do as they do) become the very opposite of wabi / sabi ?  I don't have a clue, just a question.  

    Next, there is a mention that Kodokan sensei usually do not wear the instructor symbol-adorned keikogi.  Perhaps the experience of the authors is dated; every Kodokan instructor I see today wear keikogi with that Kodokan instructor patch.  

    These points are not meant to detract from a very interesting and detailed paper, just to point out a couple of issues therein.

    And thanks to Anatol for continuing his discussion.  

    NBK

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