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    Hand action in kenka yotsu uchi mata

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    johnny5

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    Hand action in kenka yotsu uchi mata

    Post by johnny5 on Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:18 am

    How is the hand action in uchi mata when you grip as a lefty against a righty? Is it any different than in the ai yotsu situation? For one thing, I look at video clips of uchi mata and it seems that guys usually pull the hikite arm to their waist instead of up and forwards. Cheers.

    icb

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    Re: Hand action in kenka yotsu uchi mata

    Post by icb on Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:45 am

    It can depend a lot on whether uke's foot on the hikite side is forward or back. Can you post links to some example videos?

    johnny5

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    Re: Hand action in kenka yotsu uchi mata

    Post by johnny5 on Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:55 am

    Here are some competition uchi matas:


    johnny5

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    Re: Hand action in kenka yotsu uchi mata

    Post by johnny5 on Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:56 am

    But for a kenka yotsu situation, uke's foot on the hikite side would be back.

    icb

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    Re: Hand action in kenka yotsu uchi mata

    Post by icb on Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:11 am

    johnny5 wrote:But for a kenka yotsu situation, uke's foot on the hikite side would be back.

    Sorry - by "forward", I meant squared up, instead of back. When the foot on the hikite side is back, it creates a void into which uke can be thrown, so the hikite doesn't have to generate so much of an "up and forward motion" as you describe it. In ai yotsu, or in kenka yotsu with the uke's feet squared up, tori needs to prevent uke from maintaining balance on the non-"swept" leg, so the "up and forward motion" is more necessary.

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Hand action in kenka yotsu uchi mata

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:33 am

    johnny5 wrote:How is the hand action in uchi mata when you grip as a lefty against a righty? Is it any different than in the ai yotsu situation? For one thing, I look at video clips of uchi mata and it seems that guys usually pull the hikite arm to their waist instead of up and forwards. Cheers.

    As a general rule, in competition, you won't be able to pull uke arm (with your hikite) up at all, whether ai or kenka yotsu. So, what you see in the hikite locked to the abdominal area of tori instead of up high across his/her chest makes sense, and as you observe is common.

    There are different ways to enter Uchi Mata in a kenka yotsu situation, that would entail different "hand action" and body movement/positioning. I'm not going to pretend to know all the possibilities.

    A skilled opponent will try to keep his lead leg forward, and maintain an inside grip with his lapel hand (left leg hand in case of lefty). He will maintain a left/front position relative to you, and try to keep control of your left sleeve (usually by keeping it off his lapel and in his half of the space between you).

    As tori, you have to get uke to square up to you somehow, by your own gripping/tai sabaki, or get yourself to a more squared up position.

    Not much help, probably, but describing these things is pretty darned tough. What exactly you can do also depends greatly on how good you are at Uchi Mata in general.



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    johnny5

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    Re: Hand action in kenka yotsu uchi mata

    Post by johnny5 on Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:54 pm

    Thanks Ben. But do you think they are still in fact pulling upwards and forwards (as opposed to downwards), even though it doesn't look like it? And should I be practising the throw with that kind of pull?

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Hand action in kenka yotsu uchi mata

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:57 am

    johnny5 wrote:Thanks Ben. But do you think they are still in fact pulling upwards and forwards (as opposed to downwards), even though it doesn't look like it? And should I be practising the throw with that kind of pull?

    I'd suggest you rethink the whole "pulling" thing. Why try to force someone's arm into a position they are/would actively resist ? We are doing Judo, after all, (at least we try!)

    With a compliant uke, you can do whatever you want for the most part.

    Practice as close to the conditions under which you expect to have to perform the throw. You may have to approach that in increments. First, you need to have the mechanics of Uchi Mata down. YOu won't get that by having uke resist you (at first). Then add "realism" to your drills by adding posture, grip, and movement conditions that are more realistic. Kenka yotsu is tough against a skilled opponent, especially lefties who basically live in it because most judoka are righties.



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    johnny5

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    Re: Hand action in kenka yotsu uchi mata

    Post by johnny5 on Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:34 am

    Cool. Thanks. Actually, I'm the one that's throwing left handed (even though I'm right handed), or at least trying and having some moderate success with it considering I'm a yellow belt.

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Hand action in kenka yotsu uchi mata

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:41 am

    johnny5 wrote:Cool. Thanks. Actually, I'm the one that's throwing left handed (even though I'm right handed), or at least trying and having some moderate success with it considering I'm a yellow belt.

    Whether or not you are right or left handed doesn't have a lot to do with "handedness" in Judo. Some people can turn better one way than the other naturally for whatever reason(s). Or, you can just practice judo left sided and you end up a lefty because it can be an advantage. I know one teacher who is a lefty, and he just teaches left sided like most others teach right sided. So most if no tall of his students are lefties.

    As a yellow belt, you might want to have your partners take a left grip for you to learn basics. Also, keeping both feet on the ground is a good idea for yellow belts in general. Uchi Mata isn't exactly a beginner level throw.

    Of course, you may be able to do it anyway.



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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Hand action in kenka yotsu uchi mata

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:28 am

    johnny5 wrote:How is the hand action in uchi mata when you grip as a lefty against a righty? Is it any different than in the ai yotsu situation? For one thing, I look at video clips of uchi mata and it seems that guys usually pull the hikite arm to their waist instead of up and forwards. Cheers.

    I finally found this video again...
    Some examples of competition Uchi Mata (and other throws).

    Take a look especially at about 2:35. It has different angles to look at.



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    johnny5

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    Re: Hand action in kenka yotsu uchi mata

    Post by johnny5 on Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:43 pm

    Ben, yeah, that uchimata at 2:35 seemed to have a high pull.

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Hand action in kenka yotsu uchi mata

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:31 am

    johnny5 wrote:Ben, yeah, that uchimata at 2:35 seemed to have a high pull.

    She kind of pulled straight out, extending the arm, met resistance, then locked the hikite to her body. Nothing like the "high pull" to which I think you refer.

    She may have tried to high pull, I can't really tell.

    I think there is a lot more there than just pulling...

    Practicing with the normal high pull is OK with a non-resistant uke. Once resistance comes into play, you will rarely be able to make the realistic throw look like a compliant uchikomi.

    What a lot of people miss is that lower your body while doing (or attempting to do) what looks or seems to be a lateral raise with a dumbell (on your hikite), and position your body properly, the, pull the hikite across your chest or midsection and lock it down, it's the equivalent to a high pull against a compliant uke. The act of lowering your weight and properly placing your body (that placement depends on how you enter, relative posture, etc.) results in "pull".

    You won't pull anybody off balance with your arms...not sure if you think you can or not...not anybody worth trying to throw, anyway.





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    johnny5

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    Re: Hand action in kenka yotsu uchi mata

    Post by johnny5 on Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:35 pm

    I've been having some success lately with uchimata doing it like this, for some reason: I'm a lefty, he's a righty. I have an inside lapel grip near his collar bone (not behind his neck).

    I threaten or attack with kosoto gari (which seems to set up uchimata), he steps over it and I end up in a great spot to attack with uchimata. I then drive my tsurite forearm into his armpit and pull/lock his other arm to my waist with my hikite as I turn and throw with uchimata. It ends up more as a leg throw than a hip throw and feels great, fast and effortless when I pull it off.

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Hand action in kenka yotsu uchi mata

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:27 am

    johnny5 wrote:I've been having some success lately with uchimata doing it like this, for some reason: I'm a lefty, he's a righty. I have an inside lapel grip near his collar bone (not behind his neck).

    I threaten or attack with kosoto gari (which seems to set up uchimata), he steps over it and I end up in a great spot to attack with uchimata. I then drive my tsurite forearm into his armpit and pull/lock his other arm to my waist with my hikite as I turn and throw with uchimata. It ends up more as a leg throw than a hip throw and feels great, fast and effortless when I pull it off.

    That is a standard method. The difficult t hing is to get a experienced judoka to move his front leg for you, but it can and does work.


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